Another cost of test ship secrecy

[Excavatus]

10 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

i believe is so wrong in so many levels WG to test unbalanced ships in real servers that we are paying premium time camos special flags etc

 

but it is impossible to balance ships decently without live server data. 

Because in PTS, or Close test servers, people don't behave like they are in randoms. 

People try different builds, try different approaches, different ships etc. 

İt is like drug trials, you create a new drug, you test them on paper first, then under microscope (close testing) 

Then you you start testing on animals (that is PTS) a controlled environment still. 
Then ıf everything goes ok, you test it on patients in small circles (like limited testers in live testing) 

you make adjustments on the way proggressively. 

After all goes well, you get approval and release the drug to the public... 

Even so, you continue to watch, gather data, talk with experts and still ready to make adjustments. 

 

Basically it is impossible to balance ships without live server testing. 

 

PS: Here by, the writer did not aimed to call STs "lab rats or Lab bunnies" any kind of accociation is purely coincidental! 

 

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

29 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

but it is impossible to balance ships decently without live server data. 

Because in PTS, or Close test servers, people don't behave like they are in randoms. 

People try different builds, try different approaches, different ships etc. 

İt is like drug trials, you create a new drug, you test them on paper first, then under microscope (close testing) 

Then you you start testing on animals (that is PTS) a controlled environment still. 
Then ıf everything goes ok, you test it on patients in small circles (like limited testers in live testing) 

you make adjustments on the way proggressively. 

After all goes well, you get approval and release the drug to the public... 

Even so, you continue to watch, gather data, talk with experts and still ready to make adjustments. 

 

Basically it is impossible to balance ships without live server testing. 

 

PS: Here by, the writer did not aimed to call STs "lab rats or Lab bunnies" any kind of accociation is purely coincidental! 

 

1.i disagree..it is not our job to be part of the testing prosedure thats wg company problem.(as we spending real money for  prem time flags camos etc)

2.a solution could be the testers to play the ships in training rooms so as  wg gives to them ingame goodies they could spend some time all togeather to test the ships.

3.we are not sick in a hospital..this is a gaming platform and we are costumers we buy a product we shouldnt have any part in the development ..(if you go to a coffee shop to buy a coffee and they give you your coffee with salt (because you know what we are testing a new salty coffee flavor)would you like it?

[ColonelPete]

The early testing ships are so rare, you barely see them.

[pra3y]

7 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

1.i disagree..it is not our job to be part of the testing prosedure.(as we spending real money for  prem time flags camos etc)

2.a solution could be the testers to play the ships in training rooms so as  wg gives to them ingame goodies they could spend some time all togeather to test the ships.

3.we are not in a hospital..this is a gaming platform and we are costumers we buy a product we shouldnt have any part in the development ..(if you go to a coffee shop to buy a coffee and they give you your coffee with salt (because you know what we are testing a new salty coffee flavor)would you like it?

What made you think WG hasn't done 2 yet. The purpose of testing it on the live server is to get data on how the ship performs against its target audience so that WG can make whatever adjustments they want to make. If the ship isn't tested against its target audience, how would WG know whether the ship is performing too well or bad. Its just like how some forumites were dissing testers with poor stats (which was quite dumb tbh). You need a range of players from bad to good to test the ship out to get the best data, because the ship isn't necessary played by a SU all the time and the ship cannot possibly be balanced based on a SU. 

 

If WG doesn't have all the data I presume all the newly released ships will be even worse.

[Taliesn]

11 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

1.i disagree..it is not our job to be part of the testing prosedure.(as we spending real money for  prem time flags camos etc)

2.a solution could be the testers to play the ships in training rooms so as  wg gives to them ingame goodies they could spend some time all togeather to test the ships.

3.we are not in a hospital..this is a gaming platform and we are costumers we buy a product we shouldnt have any part in the development ..(if you go to a coffee shop to buy a coffee and they give you your coffee with salt (because you know what we are testing a new salty coffee flavor)would you like it?

 

There is a very vocal section of this fine forum that thinks exactly the opposite. Not incidentally, you could probably match that section with the one that loves, and I mean loves, to cry and whine whenever a new ship is released because it is OP/meh/sh$t.

 

But to the point, how do you propose WG balances ships before release then? Are you ready to assume that most ships won't be balanced (one way or the other) if you don't collect enough data? And let's be clear, training rooms and PTS are not enough to collect said data.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Spotted Asama in battle. Our team. Top of the results.. what is it?

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

48 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

 

There is a very vocal section of this fine forum that thinks exactly the opposite. Not incidentally, you could probably match that section with the one that loves, and I mean loves, to cry and whine whenever a new ship is released because it is OP/meh/sh$t.

 

But to the point, how do you propose WG balances ships before release then? Are you ready to assume that most ships won't be balanced (one way or the other) if you don't collect enough data? And let's be clear, training rooms and PTS are not enough to collect said data.

maybe you belong in the vocal section of this fine forum that wg finds open field to screw the playerbase over and over again

 

so dont wonder why ??????

 

 

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

41 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

And let's be clear, training rooms and PTS are not enough to collect said data.

they could play them in test rooms as long time as it gets to collect the data that they need and then release it(but yea it has to be quick so they can milk the playerbase cow and suddenly a companies problem becoming a costumer problem in WG unicorn universe and thats fine from a very vocal section of the forum )

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

The early testing ships are so rare, you barely see them.

you tell me that back in the days when they tested grafzepelin with those broken ap bombs that nailed you with ap ,you barely saw this ship?so for balancing a ship you screw the ballance for 23 players every time this ship participate in a real server battle WG logic work as intended

by the way imagine you play with all your rare camos and flags and you meet this uknown creature lol

 

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

you tell me that back in the days when they tested grafzepelin with those broken ap bombs that nailed you with ap ,you barely saw this ship?so for balancing a ship you screw the ballance for 23 players WG logic work are intended

by the way imagine you play with all your rare camos and flags and you meet this uknown to you test ship

Did not meet her.

Rule of thumb: when you meet an unknown ship, imagine it having all the strongest abilities ships of this class can have

or do it like me and follow the dev news on the forum. No suprises.

 

I would love to see the new ships more often. I remember when I saw one of the first Dunks on my team. Uploaded the replay and people made a video of it that you could see the model better.

[Taliesn]

57 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

maybe you belong in the vocal section of this fine forum that wg finds open field to screw the playerbase over and over again

 

so dont wonder why ??????

 

 

 

I don't feel particularly screwed over by WG, to be honest. I still win more than I lose, I enjoy the game as much as I did three years ago and even though I used to buy premium ships and stuff, I hardly spend any money in the game lately, except for the odd premium time here and there. So if WG is screwing me, it's doing a rather botched job, right? 

 

I'll criticise them when they deserve it but won't be part of the daily, mindless witch hunt.

 

39 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

they could play them in test rooms as long time as it gets to collect the data that they need and then release it(but yea it has to be quick so they can milk the playerbase cow and suddenly a companies problem becoming a costumer problem in WG unicorn universe and thats fine from a very vocal section of the forum )

 

You can't balance ships in test rooms. Is it that hard to comprehend? It would be like testing them against bots in Coop. Even leaving aside the matter of enough volume of data collection, you have to factor the quality/validity of it. Boots and players do not behave in the same manner in Coop/PTS than in Ramdoms in the live server. It is the same reason why some ships are OP or simply a must have in CW yet they are perfectly fine in Ramdoms. Different game modes mean different players and playstyles, and therefore different data. But at least it makes sense to balance them to Randoms, because that's the bread and butter of WoWs.

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

13 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

I'll criticise them when they deserve it but won't be part of the daily, mindless witch hunt.

 

so do i and thats what im doing at this very moment, so on your bike..

[Allied_Winter]

2 hours ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

1.i disagree..it is not our job to be part of the testing prosedure thats wg company problem.(as we spending real money for  prem time flags camos etc)

I'm curious. ... when ... a new line is released ... and it becomes obvious that an old old line is no longer viable ... and needs to be balanced ... are you oposed to that as well? Since ... it's not our job be part of the testing procedure ... but we played the old line ... so should WG discard the data?

 

Overall: What the others already said - meeting a test ship is rare ... sure sometimes you can "force" it, if you know a CC is in the game and you try to click sync with him in the hope of him playing a test ship ... but that's ... gambling ...

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

1 hour ago, Taliesn said:

 You can't balance ships in test rooms. Is it that hard to comprehend? It would be like testing them against bots in Coop

maybe what you dont understand ..12 testers vs 12 testers in multiple training rooms with a variety of diferent ships with diferent specs and every team will have for example 2-3 of the testing ship.as  long time as it gets to collect the data for balance hahahaha looooooooool (sorry i couldnt help it) you need.no bots not nothing (and testers are  part of the player base )

once again is not our job to be part in the procedure of testing a companies product  . we are costumers, maybe you dont pay but the majority of the player base pays to exist this game

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

18 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

I'm curious. ... when ... a new line is released ... and it becomes obvious that an old old line is no longer viable

is part of wg responsibility to test all the prespectives of the game changes/balances and make the accordingly rebalance actions before they release the new line...thats the ideal you know it but you ll never admit it

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

10 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

What the others already said - meeting a test ship is rare .

so if its so rear they could afford to give to the players that meet that ship in the game (as an unbalanced battle) a compensation to what camos flags and ingame staf they used in that battle..i think thats more fair then

[Allied_Winter]

7 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

rebalance actions before they release the new line

Yes and no.

 

I agree with you that all known aspects should be balanced accordingly before they release the line. I disagree however that this can be done for all and every case. Mostly because ... what was balanced 5 years ago (e.g. the USN DD's) might be unbalanced (as in powercrept) now. This is sometimes due to not 100% balanced line releases, but on other times simply due to players choice (some servers play some ships more than other servers, different servers have a different meta and so on ...). 

 

So yes, while it should be WG's goal to release everything as balanced as possible, it is - in this gaming world - simply impossible to do so. Unless you spend copious amounts of money on e.g. testing. And I don't want to think about what premium ships WOULD cost if WG for example does non-live-server testing for a year or so (and even then there's no guarantee that the ship that's released after one year of balancing would be 100% balanced). Especially not for a F2P game.

 

11 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

but you ll never admit it

Uhm... what? You are aware that I am NOT a Wargaming employee? Plus: WG themselves said, they made errors while balancing... so ... 

 

8 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

(as an unbalanced battle) a compensation to what camos flags and ingame staf they used in that battle..i think thats more fair then

I don't think it's fair, as those who'd meet such a ship would get something while others don't. But to follow your argument: What compensation? And why e.g. the same compensation for different ships? And how to measure the "unbalancedness"?

 

Overall: Is a battle different when a test ship is present? Yes. Is it enough difference to make a difference? Not really.

 

BUT: Since you seem pretty set on your opinion that WG is doing things wrong here, I bid you farewell. Have a nice evening.

[Taliesn]

1 hour ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

so do i and thats what im doing at this very moment, so on your bike..

 

Yup, mindlessly though, love.

 

31 minutes ago, cpt_sparrow_jack said:

maybe what you dont understand ..12 testers vs 12 testers in multiple training rooms with a variety of diferent ships with diferent specs and every team will have for example 2-3 of the testing ship.as  long time as it gets to collect the data for balance hahahaha looooooooool (sorry i couldnt help it) you need.no bots not nothing (and testers are  part of the player base )

once again is not our job to be part in the prosedure of testing a companies product  . we are costumers, maybe you dont pay but the majority of the player base pays to exist this game

 

Or maybe it's you not getting it mate. If you want to balance ships for Randoms (something that makes a lot of sense) the only way to have as good an aproximation to a balanced state as possible is to introduce them, albeit in a controlled manner, into the Random gameplay, which differs from PTS or Coop or CW for that matter. Training rooms don't cut it, seeing them perform in Randoms, with players doing their usual thing, is the best approach, even though most will be later subjected to buffs/nerfs, as WG gets more data (read "do whatever they fancy" if you're so inclined)

[cpt_sparrow_jack]

7 hours ago, Taliesn said:

 

Yup, mindlessly though, love.

 

 

Or maybe it's you not getting it mate. If you want to balance ships for Randoms (something that makes a lot of sense) the only way to have as good an aproximation to a balanced state as possible is to introduce them, albeit in a controlled manner, into the Random gameplay, which differs from PTS or Coop or CW for that matter. Training rooms don't cut it, seeing them perform in Randoms, with players doing their usual thing, is the best approach, even though most will be later subjected to buffs/nerfs, as WG gets more data (read "do whatever they fancy" if you're so inclined)

dude to end the story here if wg is strungling so hard to ballance a ship in training rooms with so many ccs and free testers .they could give it to me and i will balanced it alone in a training room in a week....(but thats not the real purpose they are doing unbalanced  ships and take them so long to balance them by breaking our b*&LZ in randoms i play 5 years the game so let me have my opinion about their real purposes for WG balance twerks)

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 3 Stunden, Karasu_Hidesuke sagte:

Spotted Asama in battle. Our team. Top of the results.. what is it?

Dead it is!  But apparently an Amagi clone. Did not really notice it until I sunk her and the message did say "Asama" instead of "Amagi"...

[Karasu_Browarszky]

2 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

Dead it is!  But apparently an Amagi clone. Did not really notice it until I sunk her and the message did say "Asama" instead of "Amagi"...

 

World of Clone War ships! 'My' Asama (meaning one in the same battle not actually uh.. mine) was not sunk. It survived the battle.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 16 Minuten, Karasu_Hidesuke sagte:

 

World of Clone War ships! 'My' Asama (meaning one in the same battle not actually uh.. mine) was not sunk. It survived the battle.

Iirc I have seen 2 Asamas, 2 Zaryas and 1 Champagne during the last couple of days. As I am very, very seldom playing random battles, this appears to quite a large number of coincidental unicorn encounters. 

[Bratoev]

3 hours ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

Iirc I have seen 2 Asamas, 2 Zaryas and 1 Champagne during the last couple of days. As I am very, very seldom playing random battles, this appears to quite a large number of coincidental unicorn encounters. 

Damn you're lucky I can recall only 1 Imperio, pair of Agirs and a single Sigfried over the past 3 months.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

8 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

The early testing ships are so rare, you barely see them.

I am lucky to see most of them when I play my alt, always a good game most of the time and keeps the chat civil too

[Yedwy]

WG needs to test the ships on Live, balance record at release date is iffy at best as it is, limiting the data even further would be... No, just no...

 

Many of the issues with "OP test ships" are bot that the ships are even THAT OP but at any given time sou might meet them are driven by good players and hence wreck havoc...

 

OFC sometimes they are OP and even remain so till release