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Ahmeni

How to deal decent damage?

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Hi,

Not exactly a noob here. I did play a bit in 2017 and 2018 and got up to tier V. I did pretty decent then. Now I got back and I suck. My fav back then was CV's, but I sold all I had just two days after coming back. But I tried CV's for 2 days and couldn't get more than couple thousand damage in whole match. So I went to CL's and BB's. I had today my Kongo sunk by single salvo from another Kongo doing 21k dmg. I can't get more than 6k single salvo. And few games forward, my cruiser got sunk by a bomb from an airplane doing 11k damage. My hits from high caliber guns range from 1k to 6k tops. I couldn't get more than 1k in single CV attack. So, what am I doing wrong (I play how we used to in early 2018)?

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Well, that can explain your problems, not mine :P
I can see that torps are trendy now, and guns not so much. I can see that AP ammo penetrates much more and HE causes more fire than it did. I managed some nice crits yesterday, but almost all accidental and couldn't ding citadel on flat trajectory even once. I can see bombs doing 8k crits on engine rooms (fine) and bridges (wtf), so it's a pity playing CV is a chore to me now. I was hoping for some friendly sailor to give a few points, but it looks like all friendly sailors went extinct :P

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I can't help you with the CV bit and it's hard to give short advice on something that wide in scope. 

 

How much do you know? Do you understand the citadel? How AP and HE works? Autobounce? Overmatch?

 

You might want to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVmXzlhZvJVSo3LA0O0ccjHRxxv-Qzchb

 

It sounds like you got to get back to the basics. Alot of things has changed in the last two years.

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You need to angle your ship so the enemy AP shell will bounce, you may want to watch the above video.

To attempt to counter CVs is somewhat difficult but if you press O your AA will focus on whatever side of the ship your camera is facing. Dive bombers need to try to align their drop for best results so I recommend "zig-zagging" to throw off his aim.

You should also turn in to enemy torpedoes and torpedo bombers so you present a smaller target.

 

hope this helps.

 

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Thanks, that playlist is sth I looked for. Good source. I'm slowly getting into it.
And you're right, it seems the armor, penetration and damage seem to be completely different. I get AP and HE, though SAP got me head scratching for now. After looking into armor I get now why citadel hits are a lot less common than they used to be. One thing I still don't get how some of the 10k+ hits happen, since I see there isn't any "crit" mechanic.
Thank you for proving there are friendly sailors still :)

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3 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

Thanks, that playlist is sth I looked for. Good source. I'm slowly getting into it.
And you're right, it seems the armor, penetration and damage seem to be completely different. I get AP and HE, though SAP got me head scratching for now. After looking into armor I get now why citadel hits are a lot less common than they used to be. One thing I still don't get how some of the 10k+ hits happen, since I see there isn't any "crit" mechanic.

These are either citadel hits or many normal penetrations.

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20 minut temu, ColonelPete napisał:

These are either citadel hits or many normal penetrations.

Yeah, that's what I first thought, though over 20k in one BB salvo in tier V felt little extreme (especially when the same BB can't kill DD with full HE broadside). And then I got dealt 8k in single bomb run. So I thought there was some technique or mechanic I was not aware of.
After a lot of reading and watching I can say I really like how detailed current hit mechanic is in WoWS. And at the same time I hate how totally random it feels in game. I remember being able to deal decent damage and now I can't even tell what I'm doing wrong :( I can only feel reliable in DD's (torps didn't change much), but only if there's no CV to constantly spot me anytime I try doing ambush. I'm really thinking of going back to tier II.

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58 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

Yeah, that's what I first thought, though over 20k in one BB salvo in tier V felt little extreme (especially when the same BB can't kill DD with full HE broadside). And then I got dealt 8k in single bomb run. So I thought there was some technique or mechanic I was not aware of.
After a lot of reading and watching I can say I really like how detailed current hit mechanic is in WoWS. And at the same time I hate how totally random it feels in game. I remember being able to deal decent damage and now I can't even tell what I'm doing wrong :( I can only feel reliable in DD's (torps didn't change much), but only if there's no CV to constantly spot me anytime I try doing ambush. I'm really thinking of going back to tier II.

BB at Tier V can sink each with ONE salvo. It is a bit of luck on the shooters side and a lot of incompetence of the target to allow that, but that is possible.

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Is it really, not only theoretically? I mean, it's 5-6 citadel hits. I can't imagine getting this unless it's point blank broadside. The spread itself...

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35 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

Is it really, not only theoretically? I mean, it's 5-6 citadel hits. I can't imagine getting this unless it's point blank broadside. The spread itself...

Happens often enough.

The maxium damage of Tier V BB in one salvo is between 80 and 100k.

The maxium HP on Tier V is 54100 on Kongo, the rest has less.

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On 5/2/2020 at 5:14 PM, Ahmeni said:

So, what am I doing wrong (I play how we used to in early 2018)?

As others have said, it's difficult to get into specifics without more information; that said, some pointers (beyond what helpful folk have already said):

  • As was the case when you previously played, the wiki is a good source of information (https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/World_of_Warships); the three 'surface combat' sections should be of most help regarding your specific enquiry.
  • The key thing (with guns) to get the hang of is which bits of the ships to shoot, and with which ammo - others have already outlined the essentials.
  • I would also suggest joining a clan, and ideally one with people who are happy to critique what you're doing (via voice comms, ideally). It'll also get you some decent economic bonuses too.

Keep asking questions though, and keep them as specific as possible - there are usually plenty of helpful folk around who're happy to help.

 

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Thank you guys. After getting a lot of vitriol in the game I sort of expected the same here. It's nice to be wrong.
I can tell you, I have to unlearn everything and treat it like an entirely new game. The thing that's closest to AD2018 is DD, but even there I feel more restricted in movement. I expected to be back in the saddle in no time, I don't have that much time to invest, so I'm not sure if I'll stay for long. But one thing that pains the most is, I don't feel the shots at all. I look at the angle and the position and expect a great deal, then I get a ricochet, no penetration or OP. And sometimes I pull a citadel hit out of my... funnel, when it looks like I hit belt at angle, so no chance of decent damage. I know it's all precisely explainable, but I can't get a feeling of it, it feels random and that takes a joy out of good hit. I still know when I'll land a great fish, so at least torpedo kills are satisfactory.

Oh, and one question. I bought Fuso which looked to me like a sniper BB. Yet people expect me to be charging in half of the time. Am I playing this thing wrong too?

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44 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

Oh, and one question. I bought Fuso which looked to me like a sniper BB. Yet people expect me to be charging in half of the time. Am I playing this thing wrong too?

Neither.

 

Fuso has the range but can't hit anything if played like that. It's also to clumsy to yolo with. Mid range and use the fast reload and the many guns.

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7 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

Oh, and one question. I bought Fuso which looked to me like a sniper BB. Yet people expect me to be charging in half of the time. Am I playing this thing wrong too?

What @Hanse77SWE said.

 

Something to bear in mind, even when you're a bit rusty: many folk on chat (and sometimes the more vocal ones) are either blithering idiots, or weren't paying enough attention to your bit of the map, amongst other things. This means that a lot of the 'advice' you'll get in game is, erm, not exactly helpful and/or correct, so take such input with a large bucket of salt (unless you have reason to suspect the player in question knows of what they speak).

 

I'm a DD main, so no good with BBs, but I have heard it suggested that the 'default' distance to be from the enemy is usually approximately your surface detection distance (keep an eye on this on your mini-map); the idea is that you can easily go dark when you need to (to skulk off and heal, or reposition), whilst still being close enough to hit reasonably frequently - recall that no BB is full-on accurate, by design - and draw at least some fire (a key role for BBs is to tank damage for their weaker team-mates, especially cruisers).

 

If you're actually after a true 'sniper' (such as you might find in WOT, say) BBs aren't really it (some are more accurate than others though) - given that they're flinging shells around that are about the size of a Volkswagen, some inaccuracy is needed to avoid them being laughably OP. If you want something which has shells that tend to go where you aimed them a bit more frequently, the Russian cruisers might be worth a look (their 'railguns' are notorious). If your gunnery is rusty in general, I might suggest taking something with lots of dakka that you enjoy into either Coop or Ops for a bit of gunnery practice (lots of dakka, as the faster reload allows faster assessment of your fire, and corrections)...

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Well, IJN battleships are not very good in tanking damage. The reason I saw Fuso as good sniper is good range and reload time making up for spread. When I go offensive in either Fuso or Kongo, I get wasted after dealing 15-25k damage. That's with positioning ~30 deg to target. Showing broadside below 15km usually results in being one-shot. Now, staying at the edge of enemy effective range - that what I meant for sniping - and with CV if there's one, I usually last to the end and with 20-50k dmg dealt. Which is still puny compared to regular 100k I used to hand out in my Zuiho in the old days.
As for general BB accuracy, I'm actually impressed by their ability to take out my DDs. I've been taken out from >15km distance after doing a torpedo run quite a lot, no matter what evasive pattern I tried. Best I managed was taking out a BB and CA before going down. My accuracy against DD in BB at that range is still mediocre.

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So, first things first:
-Watch iChaseGaming youtube guides on Angling, Penetration, Aiming and whatever else you think it would be useful for you.
-Learn to aim properly. 
I would recommend to play:
-USN dds up to t6 or 7
-IJN cruisers to t6
-USN CA up to t6 pensacola and

-USSR cruisers to t6.
USN dds have floaty arcs, ijn and russians have hard hitting ap and usn pepsi has hard hitting ap but slow shells.
Being able to reliably hit targets with these ships at medium to long ranges will pretty much have you covered for every ship no matter the tier.

I also use dynamic crosshair and "Spotter plane remover mod" along with "Navigator mod".
Another option is nomogane(?) true dynamic crosshair mod.
I used to use static crosshair but once i switched to the dynamic one i started getting better results.
I like the spotter plane removed mod because it removes the weird angle that you get when you use a spotter plane so i can aim as usual and navigator because it shows me at what angle the enemy ship is sailing. So, with the help of navigator i now have 'cases' for almost every ship at every angle.
After a certain point it pretty much becomes muscle memory.
I know that when i see a dd run away at 10km at 10 degree angle (based on the navigator mod) i need to give it at least 2 ticks lead more. I usually aim between the 3 and 4s marks.
Cruisers running at a 40ish degree angle i always shoot at 5s mark
BBs or Cruisers performing a turn i always shoot at 4 or 5s mark
As a rule of thumb, take your shoot, see where your shells went and adjust accordingly.
It is easier to train in coop and training room.

Try to avoid playing stock ships.
You can get away with unupgraded weapons, engine and torps but not without an upgraded hull. Use your free xp here.
Prioritize your ship upgrades. To the very least, depending on the ship, take rudder/accel.

Before you start playing a freshly unlocked ship go to youtube and watch guides and videos with people playing in it.
Business6, notser, flambass, flamu . All of them have great vids.
Try to mimick what you saw.

Take it slow.
Tiers 5 to 7 are great to figure things out. DO NOT rush to tier 10, it is not worth it.
Set a goal like:
I need to do 3x times my hp in damage when i play dds
2x times my hp in damage when i play cruisers and
1x times my hp in damage when i play bbs.
This will eventually lead to better target selection and an active effort to improve your aim.

Find a begginer friendly clan.
You have no idea how much info you can pick when listening to 2 clanmates talk about ships.
There is always something new to learn!

As for the citadels:
Generally aim bellow the smoke stacks and the guns

CVs:
I would say pick the t4 hosho and try to consistently hit everything you aim.
This way you ll learn how to 'counter' cvs in your other ships.

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12 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

Well, IJN battleships are not very good in tanking damage.

They're still better than any other class tier-for-tier; bear in mind that there is quite a lot of technique involved in tanking effectively - it's not a case of just sitting there and getting pounded. If you aren't tanking at least a bit in your BB, you simply aren't doing your job properly. Yes, you'll see lots of BBs of all tiers humping the borders and/or sniping from extreme range; generally though, such people will be outsmarted by their own underpants and will have a WR that reflects that.

 

12 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

Showing broadside below 15km usually results in being one-shot.

Thus illustrating the point about technique; any class with a citadel (so, effectively BBs and cruisers) needs to pretty much always be mindful of avoiding giving broadside to people, and if they have to, it's about choosing the least bad option (this is why better players make the effort to try and arrange cross-fire, where possible). Doing this right depends on good situational awareness, which means never losing sight of your mini-map (make sure you have 'last known position' enabled); this stuff takes practice though and being rusty is a likely consequence of returning from a layoff.

On a related note, crafty torp use can sometimes force a target to turn in a way that exposes their broadside to the opposition; beware of this when dodging incoming fish.

 

12 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

I've been taken out from >15km distance after doing a torpedo run quite a lot, no matter what evasive pattern I tried.

Sometimes, the scattergun effect of BBs can work in their favour; this means you will sometimes take absurd hits in a DD. You can mitigate things though, a lot: DDs are very nimble - keep an eye on the BBs and where their shells are; your aim is to try and be elsewhere when they arrive (obviously). Don't drive in straight lines at a constant speed; alter both to throw off long range fire (course, especially, in my view); change direction hard the moment a BB fires at you from range (by the time the shells turn up, you'll be elsewhere); if you're running away, it's sometimes possible to wiggle between the incoming shells; try and assess how the BB adjusts fire to hit you when you dodge and don't dodge the same way in sequence - be unpredictable. Never lose track of where islands are; jinking behind one can often ruin a BB's shot at you. This stuff all takes practice though, and switching between zoom and unzoom display modes (unzoomed makes tracking incoming fire a lot easier).

 

13 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

My accuracy against DD in BB at that range is still mediocre.

It's 'just' a practice thing - give it time.

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If I may add: Absolutely nothing has changed since 2018 when it comes to AP. New ships were introduced and they have their own values of alpha damage and penetration angles but none of the existing ships were modified. Neither were any of the mechanics.

Also fire damage was not changed.

Either you got a bit rusty or you played too few battles to get a good picture on the situation (in 50 games you might have a couple where everything goes really well and those games stick in the memory as the normal ones).

 

Asking questions here politely is definitely a good way to go.

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Thank you all guys for your help. After playing over 50 matches with BB since my original post, it still feels completely random what dmg I'm dealing or being dealt. I'm not talking about aim itself (though I think landing most 15-20 km shots closer to target than spread radius without any aiming mods is decent). Conversely, I tried playing cruisers (which was most difficult class for me way back) and found my guns DPS pretty consistent at all ranges. So I think I'll just stick to playing DD and CA/CL. But I'm still curious about conditions that have to be met for doing one-tap on BB at 18km range (got killed that way yesterday in almost untouched Fuso). The way I understand it, you need 5 to 6 AP shells to penetrate citadel for that? 

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4 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

After playing over 50 matches with BB since my original post, it still feels completely random what dmg I'm dealing or being dealt.

That's because it is random in a way. But the closer you are the less chance of "random". Remember that in the battle of Jutland the BBs hit rate were about 2-3%. Imagine getting one hit every 5-6 salvos.

4 hours ago, Ahmeni said:

I think landing most 15-20 km shots closer to target

Then you're doing it wrong. 15 km is about the max range of what's good for a Fuso. Remember, max range and efficient max range are two different things. And "Close" doesn't cut it. We have a saying where I live. "Close doesn't kill the rabbit." You have to hit.

 

You've played 80 battles in you Fuso, I've played 43 in mine. Lets have a look at our stats.

(You on the left)

1668392719_2020-05-09(1).thumb.png.7b326746040df14eb0d50f6f4784643c.png1627568077_2020-05-09(2).thumb.png.fb7a5c76b943466ad62bfa3eaa3cd4ca.png

 

1: My hit-rate is 7,66% better than yours. So I hit more often with the same guns. I like to move in closer before I start to shoot. But the main point isn't to hit, it's to do damage.

2: My average damage is about twice yours. As I move in closer it isn't just that I hit more, I also hit harder, doing more damage and it's easier to hit weakpoints. Also, holding fire untill you have a better angle on your target can be the difference between 1 000 damage and 20 000.

3: We have sunk the same amount of ships but I have played half as many battles. I like to shoot at the same ship untill it dies. Into this comes also picking a target that I feel I can kill.

 

How to do more damage? Move closer.

But won't it be easier to hit me then? Yes, that's why we learn to use our armor. Learn what ships can hurt you and how to protect yourself from those ships so you can stay alive longer and do more damage.

Cruisers and DDs stay alive by not getting hit. BBs stay alive by not getting damaged.

 

Long range sniping is the wrong way to play a BB because one of your jobs is to tank incoming fire that the smaller ships can't and how can you do that if you're sitting in the back. Learn the gun-ranges of the cruisers and position yourself in a way so there's room for the cruisers to stay behind you and still be able to shoot. By doing so you are protecting them and at the same time benefit from their firesupport. The cruisers should be just as far behind you so they can focus down any DDs that are spotted.

 

And as a final point.

 

You overall survivalrate is 20.08%, mine is 42.84%. The longer you survive, the more you can do. This doesn't mean you should put survival as your top priority. Top priority is still to kill and do damage and you can't do anything if you're dead. It's OK to die, it's not OK to die without making it worth it and it doesn't have to be damage. Tanking and keeping an entire flank busy while your team push the other flank is also "Worth it".

 

This game is like an onion, it has many layers and sometimes it makes you cry.:Smile_trollface:

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1. I didn't even know I can check so detailed stats anywhere. It's more info than wg profile gives and better presented.
2. So yeah, range. I don't spend whole matches kiting at 18km. I just took shots at other BBs kiting at that distance and feeling safe. Shouldn't I? I don't think giving my position away is a big deal after I was spotted already and I'm out of range for 90% of ships on the map. Hovever...
3. When other BBs killed me, it was usually long range flanking shots. Texas from 15km for example. So I tried to replicate that. I rarely got closer than 12km. Until today...

4. I was tired of BBs but I have to get 'dreadnought' for a mission. So instead of playing normally I tried to just get damaged a lot without being killed. I charged CAs until they showed broadside and then turned broadside to them. To my surprise it worked like a charm. I didn't count all kills, but twice I one-tapped them. It's so counterintuitive for me I can't believe it worked. Yet, my 3 BB games today were probably the best I've had so far with BB. So...
5. I still don't get a feeling of BBs. Some day maybe. And maybe not an IJN ones. I surely took Fuso for different beast than it is. Or rather her guns, because her armor works even better than I expected after paper IJN DDs and cardboard IJN CLs :)

godzinę temu, Hanse77SWE napisał:

This game is like an onion, it has many layers and sometimes it makes you cry.:Smile_trollface:

That's true. I just recently stopped crying after my Zuiho (and 2000 doubloons that disappeared, but that's not really worth mentioning. I just didn't know they can expire).

 

Oh, and I forgot. Ammo. I got some bad advice initially. I have much better results now I'm using ammo the proper way.

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1 minute ago, Ahmeni said:

1. I didn't even know I can check so detailed stats anywhere. It's more info than wg profile gives and better presented.

https://wows-numbers.com

2 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

2. So yeah, range. I don't spend whole matches kiting at 18km. I just took shots at other BBs kiting at that distance and feeling safe. Shouldn't I? I don't think giving my position away is a big deal after I was spotted already and I'm out of range for 90% of ships on the map. Hovever...

If there is a BB 18 km away and you are spotted. Why not shoot at the ship that is spotting you? Or is the 18 km BB the only one there? In that case, what the hell are you doing 18 km away from the nearest ship? In some cases holding your fire might be the better option.

4 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

3. When other BBs killed me, it was usually long range flanking shots. Texas from 15km for example. So I tried to replicate that. I rarely got closer than 12km. Until today...

Giving broadside to a Texas at 15 km is asking for it. Why would you do that? To avoid stuff like that you have to make a decision 2-3 minuter before that and move in such a way that you don't show your side. And 15 km isn't long range, it's mid range.

8 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

4. I was tired of BBs but I have to get 'dreadnought' for a mission. So instead of playing normally I tried to just get damaged a lot without being killed. I charged CAs until they showed broadside and then turned broadside to them. To my surprise it worked like a charm. I didn't count all kills, but twice I one-tapped them. It's so counterintuitive for me I can't believe it worked. Yet, my 3 BB games today were probably the best I've had so far with BB. So...

So you're starting to learn. Good. Taking small amounts of damge over time is something that you can survive and heal back, showing broadside to a BB, not so much.

10 minutes ago, Ahmeni said:

5. I still don't get a feeling of BBs. Some day maybe. And maybe not an IJN ones. I surely took Fuso for different beast than it is. Or rather her guns, because her armor works even better than I expected after paper IJN DDs and cardboard IJN CLs :)

IJN ships isn't famous for their armor, they are more about speed and firepower. RU and German BBs are the best if you want protection. You have to be a bit of a masochist to play BBs. It's very much about being shot at all the time and endure it. Don't panic when the HP-bar starts to drop, planning ahead, picking the right target at the right moment. Knowing that you might not be able to get out of a bad situation but rather go down fighting. It's an exciting live if you have the guts for it.

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50 minut temu, Hanse77SWE napisał:

Thank you, kind Sir! 
 

50 minut temu, Hanse77SWE napisał:

If there is a BB 18 km away and you are spotted. Why not shoot at the ship that is spotting you? Or is the 18 km BB the only one there? In that case, what the hell are you doing 18 km away from the nearest ship? In some cases holding your fire might be the better option.

In BB I usually don't see the ship that spotted me. And plenty of times I see 12-15km targets hugging islands and one or two clear at 18+. I usually then took shots at the latter, especially when they were stationary.

50 minut temu, Hanse77SWE napisał:

Giving broadside to a Texas at 15 km is asking for it. Why would you do that? To avoid stuff like that you have to make a decision 2-3 minuter before that and move in such a way that you don't show your side. And 15 km isn't long range, it's mid range.

I always thought long range is sth like 15+ or 16+, given that it's max range of many BBs. Showing broadside to other BB is usually result of surprise flanking in those no-DD, no-CV games, or no-CV games where our DD rushed to die. Also I didn't expect Texas to be a killer at almost her max range. I also didn't expect some other BBs to be able to sneak below 10km range without being spotted (I don't intentionally go without friendly DDs and CLs, but sometimes they just abandon positions and leave me exposed).

50 minut temu, Hanse77SWE napisał:

So you're starting to learn. Good. Taking small amounts of damge over time is something that you can survive and heal back, showing broadside to a BB, not so much.

Yeah, but I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that turning broadside in a ship of size and maneuverability of Eiffel Tower towards agile opponent equipped with rapid firing artillery and torpedoes, at mid to close range, is a good idea. At least I'd say it's historically accurate for BB to be CA/CL killer.

BTW my most satisfying BB game so far is still the one where I dealt only 14k dmg. It was when my team left CV completely unprotected, so I turned back and kept warding off hostiles until the end. Which, to be honest, was victory for us mostly because CV managed to spot both ships closing on her and on cap points. Neither her or me scored much in this game, but I strongly believe we two won that game, not the rest of the team who capped and fragged.

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