CB ratings, expressing perfectly our feelings about CVs

[Sunleader]

9 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

What contradiction?? I've not seen any argument here that cvs are balanced, which may be what you're alluding to. Yoshas post and argument, or 'theory', was that clans have an ulterior motive for wishing for no cvs. You thought that it was impressive how we all missed what he actually said and how Yosha was happy about everyone misunderstanding... How is this not side tracking the subject? How is this any different from my post toward you? I even made sure to use your own words. It's the same argument.

 

Ah. So you didnt Understand Yosha in the First Place. Well thats also Fine.

[DxN69]

11 hours ago, Erik_Aukan said:

Completely agree. The purple clans don't want any changes to their hegemony. Sure, they got some good CV players, but this is about them wanting them gone, so that can keep doing what they want. 

Clan battles have improved, fights are more dynamic now, and there is longer the campfest that someone apparantly wants.

Yes to fun, no to boring campfests.

Are you small kid or something? First of all, the big clans are still there, no sudden underdogs appeared. Secondly, it is like you play soccer for Steaua Bucharest and suddenly Barcelona is making you an offer. You do not hesitate, you go directly. If any big clan doesn't already have a good cv player, it would be extremely easy to recruit one. Most will be thrilled, enchanted and honored to be a member of a Clan that is well known in international competitions. Grow up.

[loppantorkel]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Ah. So you didnt Understand Yosha in the First Place. Well thats also Fine.

Ah. ..and you're not defending Yosha by telling everyone here no one has gotten Yosha's point. No one but you of course. ..and you won't tell us this deep insight that flew over everyone's head. I suspect you'll keep dragging this out without a good explanation until your clan mate locks the thread.

 

That's just a theory though. It may contain deeper insights than you can fathom.

[_HMS_RICHY]

Well I maybe on the opposite side of the fence but I'm fine with cv's in Clanwars shockingly enough.

 

[_HMS_RICHY]

I'm surprised not to see more smolls and yoshes to counter the starlingrads and Venezia's. If hardly no dds do you really need radar. And HE loves both  of the meta ships and they have no hydro against torps.

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, _HMS_RICHY said:

I'm surprised not to see more smolls and yoshes to counter the starlingrads and Venezia's. If hardly no dds do you really need radar. And HE loves both  of the meta ships and they have no hydro against torps.

 

Yoshino and Smolensk is all well and good, but using them means you give up map control - Stalins doing their thing, CV probably spotting you, you have to give ground. Not always of course, but they don't have the staying power. Both are also sub-par for pushing, and not as good at capitalising on crossfires or blapping. 

 

If you have them, you're basically stuck using them trying to HE the Stalins while Kiting away, because if you're stuck nose in with them you're usually screwed. 

 

So to counter Stalin and Venezia, you take Venezia instead. For this meta, it's better. Compared to Yoshino and Smolensk, you can move around a bit more freely as well and it's less easy to punish. 

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, loppantorkel said:

Ah. ..and you're not defending Yosha by telling everyone here no one has gotten Yosha's point. No one but you of course. ..and you won't tell us this deep insight that flew over everyone's head. I suspect you'll keep dragging this out without a good explanation until your clan mate locks the thread.

 

That's just a theory though. It may contain deeper insights than you can fathom.

Sigh.... 

 

Actually Someone else got it Before Me. But didnt bother Pointing it out and instead just told Yosha off on it.

But thats a Different Story.

 

See Mate. Your a Good example why I usually write a Wall of Text when Explaining things. Because me making only Short Posts Leads to People just keep Interpreting things themselves and jumping to Conclusions.

Because the Problem here is that you have a Fundamental Misunderstanding here that is likely caused by you Seeing that Yosha and me are from the Same Clan and thus Assuming that we must be on the Same side of the Discussion.

 

For your Information. Yosha and I heavily Disagree on CV Issues. So inside CV Topics we are usually Found on Opposite Sides of the Argument.

(Thats also why I earlier Pinged Yosha about you thinking that I am on the same side as him in the Argument. Cause its a quite hilarious Idea on this and anyone who pays even slight attention to CV Topics actually knows that.)

 

And that Deeper Insight you keep Talking about seems to be a Simple case of Butthurt about some People in our Clan being Mods. And whatever Funny Theory you have about this leading to some Big Secret Plan of World Domination.

So Sorry. But I dont care.

 

 

I do care about you Misunderstanding the Point tough. (Even tough its quite Hilarious to Watch for those who understood it) So I will try to Explain it to you in Detail.

 

1.

The Topics Original Point was a Showcase that alot of Old and very Good WoWs Clans are making Clear that they do not think CVs should be Part of Clanbattles and that CVs are Currently Broken and Unbalanced and thus not Valid for Competetive Gameplay.

2.

Now Yosha tried to do 2 Points when Answering that.

A: That the Clans that Changed their Name are just a few. And thus do not Represent a Majority.

and B: That Clans which are now Complaining about CVs in Competetive Play are not doing so because CVs are Broken and Overpowered but just because they themselves Failed to Recruit proper CV Players and thus now ended up Losing against Clans that they would Normaly Wipe the Floor with easily.

3.

Now for us here. Point B is the one thats most Interesting. Because his Point B Implies 2 Major things Relevant to this Discussion.

A: That the other Competetive Clans which did not Change their Names would not have a Problem with the Current Situation of CVs.

And B: That the Clans currently Complaining about CVs in Competetive Modes do not actually think that CVs are Broken and Overpowered but are just Annoyed that they Failed to prepare properly and now want CVs out of Competetive Modes as the Good CV Players they would need to remain Strong there are already Recruited by others leaving them with a Disadvantage.

4.

During that Discussion Yosha also made a Statement that These Clans are now Screwed because they Failed to Recruit Top CV Players and thus have Trouble staying Competetive which is why they are Crying like that.

5.

And thats where I come in. Because I was Sitting here Reading this stuff. And tought to myself that this is an Extremely Obvious Fallacy.

Because if CVs are not Broken and Overpowered. Why Should Competetive Clans be Angry that they Failed to Recruit the Good CV Players. And why would this cause them to Lose Against Clans that are Normally not on their Level.

Why would a CV be Forcibly Required to Stay Competetive if its Balanced with the other Classes ?

But instead of Pointing this out and getting back to the Topic of CVs being Broken and Unbalanced causing Clans to Campaign against it.

Everyone Instead just Decided to Challenge Yoshas Claim that the Clans have some Ulterior Motive and Argue about the Clans Motives instead of the Topic.

Only 1 Person Realized this and just Told Yosha off on it. Not that it really mattered because the rest of the People just kept going for Yosha instead of Realizing that the Wild Goose Chase they are on.

6.

Hence my Comment in light astonishment as to how Blind People can become to Simple Fallacies when they are Focused more on the Person they are trying to beat than at the Topic they are Trying to Beat that Person in.

Because Yoshas Point basicly does not even Exist unless CVs are Broken and Overpowered.

7.

After my Comment. Quite a few People actually Realized it themselves. But I guess you have some Real Beef with our Clan. Because instead of just taking my Hint and just using Yoshas Point against him. And thus Finally Returning to Discussing the Fact that CVs are Overpowered and Broken. You now seem to have come Up with the Idea that this somehow some sort of Clan Project where we are Trying prevent CV Discussion about CBs or something.

Which is Hilarious as well by the way ^^. Because your Accusing us of trying to Bury this Topic till it can be Closed. Yet your the one who Refuses to let it go back on Topic :)

 

 

So.

Wall of Text Completed.

Sorry for those who Understood beforehand already.

But maybe that also Shows why I sometimes have to Write a Wall of Text and Explain things Step by Step.

[_HMS_RICHY]

32 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Yoshino and Smolensk is all well and good, but using them means you give up map control - Stalins doing their thing, CV probably spotting you, you have to give ground. Not always of course, but they don't have the staying power. Both are also sub-par for pushing, and not as good as capitalising on crossfires or blapping. 

 

If you have them, you're basically stuck using them trying to HE the Stalins while Kiting away, because if you're stuck nose in with them you're usually screwed. 

 

So to counter Stalin and Venezia, you take Venezia instead. For this meta, it's better. Compared to Yoshino and Smolensk, you can move around a bit more freely as well and it's less easy to punish. 

Yeah your kind of right but to be fair our clan team use zero Venezia's and only 2 starlingrads and we are doing ok we still even run a dd. And yes we have met the meta ships quite a few times and sometimes we beat them and other times we don't.

[steveraptor]

1 hour ago, _HMS_RICHY said:

I'm surprised not to see more smolls and yoshes to counter the starlingrads and Venezia's. If hardly no dds do you really need radar. And HE loves both  of the meta ships and they have no hydro against torps.

Adding to what miragetank said:

 

They don't counter those ships because they do not play passive, they push, radar smolls/woosters/minos out of smoke and blap them, yoshes also get citadel ed easy by stalins at long range.

Also, there is no reason to bring Yosh instead of Venezia.

Generally any DPM ship is useless because long range Alpha dominates the meta, that's why Venezia and Stalins are everwhere.

 

[I_come_bearing_gifts]

As a jack of all trades player. The biggest problem is explaining to traditional players how best to position themselves to mitigate damage from a CV, especially in the early stages of the battle. 

 

The whinging is constant but, it's here and they have to adapt, or they don't play. 

[Sunleader]

21 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

Adding to what miragetank said:

 

They don't counter those ships because they do not play passive, they push, radar smolls/woosters/minos out of smoke and blap them, yoshes also get citadel ed easy by stalins at long range.

Also, there is no reason to bring Yosh instead of Venezia.

Generally any DPM ship is useless because long range Alpha dominates the meta, that's why Venezia and Stalins are everwhere.

 

 

Problem also is CVs here.

CVs are extremely Strong at Limiting Tactical and Strategical Maneuvering.

Want to Bring a DD closer to the Enemy to Torpedo Stalins out of a Bowtanking Spot ? Yeah good Luck with a CV there to Spot that DD and have him Delected.

Want to Push into a Position ? Yeah good luck Staying Angled when a CV constantly gives you the Choice to either Eat a Nice 25k AP Bomb Drop or a 15k Torpedo Drop if you Refuse to Turn your Ship.

Want to Send a Ship around the Flank to get some Crossfire ? Yeah have Fun with CV Spotting that Ship and it being Focused down by 2-3 Venezias/Stalingrads.

Want to Spread out to increase your Control of the Area ? Yeah CV loves you Soon. Because your AA Blob gets too weak to keep him at Distance.

Want to Move from one position to a different one ? Yeah good Luck with that because with a CV you will pretty much always be spotted and thus the moment you are in Enemy range and move out of Cover you will be Focused down. 

 

In the End. The only Choice you have. Is to Get into Position as Fast as Possible and then either Hold it Camping or Hold it Kiting. Because thats the only options where you can either stay Maneuverable enough to Reduce incoming Damage despite CV keeping you pressured or where you have enough AA Blob to Prevent the Enemy CV from doing meaningful Attack Runs on you.

 

 

CVs in Clanbattles are like Playing Poker with Cards Facing Upwards.

Any Tactic that requires your Enemy to not know your Hand becomes meaningless.

 

[Yedwy]

16 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

I sort of assume cvs are the bigger issue in making dds unviable. Funny how one class becomes obsolete in 'high' competitive games when cvs are present. What does WG think of this? Acceptable class balance?

Well DDs in CB were always primarily spotting tool and the ocaisonall torp hit was a welcome bonus as any time you got spottes usually meant you are either dead or well on your way so apart from some ambushes around islands most of the time it was long range spotting, its not unexpected they were largely pushed out by cvs as losing a plane or two for spot doesnt weaken the team or cost points while losing a dd that is usually the only spotter anyways does...

[semiGM]

Am 2.5.2020 um 14:01, Yoshanai sagte:

ONE of the other reasons so I believe is however that these clans I believe don't like the idea of other clans reaching up high with the help of great CV players. 

Why would anybody not want other clans to reach high leagues they worked hard for? One  congratulates them to their success and is happy with them and this is the common reaction in the community. You already stated your opinion about the kots discord, but there you could see that everybody is really happy   when new clans have success and beat  one of the favorites. You surely are really surprised now, but I really wish  novents and exa and THESO having success and fun this season and reach what they want. Even when I don’t enjoy cvs in clanbattles, I respect if others like you do it. So you should as well and not assume evil motives of people expressing their opinion on CVs.

[steveraptor]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Problem also is CVs here.

CVs are extremely Strong at Limiting Tactical and Strategical Maneuvering.

Want to Bring a DD closer to the Enemy to Torpedo Stalins out of a Bowtanking Spot ? Yeah good Luck with a CV there to Spot that DD and have him Delected.

Want to Push into a Position ? Yeah good luck Staying Angled when a CV constantly gives you the Choice to either Eat a Nice 25k AP Bomb Drop or a 15k Torpedo Drop if you Refuse to Turn your Ship.

Want to Send a Ship around the Flank to get some Crossfire ? Yeah have Fun with CV Spotting that Ship and it being Focused down by 2-3 Venezias/Stalingrads.

Want to Spread out to increase your Control of the Area ? Yeah CV loves you Soon. Because your AA Blob gets too weak to keep him at Distance.

Want to Move from one position to a different one ? Yeah good Luck with that because with a CV you will pretty much always be spotted and thus the moment you are in Enemy range and move out of Cover you will be Focused down. 

 

In the End. The only Choice you have. Is to Get into Position as Fast as Possible and then either Hold it Camping or Hold it Kiting. Because thats the only options where you can either stay Maneuverable enough to Reduce incoming Damage despite CV keeping you pressured or where you have enough AA Blob to Prevent the Enemy CV from doing meaningful Attack Runs on you.

 

 

 

 

CV is the cause, true, but I don't see it a problem in my eyes.

From what I have seen in previous competitive tournies, namely KOTS, the only tactical gameplay was camping and trading.

All that "strategical maneuvering and tactical pushing etc etc" is a stuff of legends.

And I will disagree with any attempt at saying that the "life before CV" was anything interesting or tactical.

KOTS was the most boring tournament I ever seen in any competitive gaming.

 

Its obvious the the meta has changed and ships can no longer be parked isolated behind every island.

So now, ships needs to have strong AA and have to operate in groups of at least 2.

 

Stationary targets behind islands, are easy picking for CV, especially if alone. But Open water cruisers with good agility like Venezia and Henris are not, especially if they move in groups of 2-3.

Open water cruisers in general are more resistant to CV spotting due to them firing/trading at will anyway and are on the move.

Open water cruiser gameplay is also something new to didn't really exist when CV were out of the picture, so I see it as welcome change.

 

When you put several stationary/bow-in pushing targets together, namely stalins for example, you can effectively ward off any drops, and even if the CV gets the drop, and gets jackpot RNG and nails 25k with AP bombs, it usually cost the entire squadron of 12 planes, out of 20 to get that, and its simply not a worthy trade for the CV player.

Defensive AA was never supposed to protect a lone ship from CV, but when you have 2-3 stalins use it at the same time, even the best CV players will have extremely difficulties to get a drop and its simply not worth it.

 

You call that blobbing in a negative way but that's not true, blobbing is pushing one side with 6 ships, which nobody does and instantly fails due to crossfires.

Instead clans tend to play 3-3, 4-2, and I even seen NOCAP plays 2-2-2, some mix open water cruisers with long range stationary, the CV can also camp stationary fighters on top of stationary targets to keep them safe from bombers for the entire game.

 

This is why I, and I think Yosha as well, see as the game more dynamic compared to the previous stationary campfest we had before.

 

I think that the players point their fingers at the wrong culprit for the stalemate of the current meta, CV open up more tactics but the cause of the issue here are Stalins and Venezia.

Simply, Alpha right now dominates the meta. people complain about getting hammered by the occasional 25k ap bombers.

Is everyone fine with getting 15k SAPed by venezias consistently? CV spotting DD is one thing, but what gets them killed are 3 venezia insta killing them on the spot. 

Stalins are effectively battleships with rail gun accuracy at 20km and both have excellent AA.

Do you think that ships like Zao, Hindy and Henry went extinct because of CVs? No, they dissappeared from the meta long before it, because they were power crept by venezia and stalins.

DPM ships pretty much went out of the window due to how powerful those 2 ships are.

 

The higher you climb the quickly you notice that every enemy comp you face is generally one out of possible 3:

 - 3x stalins 3x venezia 1x haku

- 2x stalins 1x halland 3x venezia 1x haku

- 4x stalins 2x venezia 1x haku

 

With the occasional PR mixed once in 10 games for radar instead of a Venezia.

Here is how diverse and interesting is the meta, and it has nothing to do with CVs.

 

Those are the main issues. 

 

And on top of it all, notice that at top leagues, only Haku sees gameplay, because Haku strives against stalins and moskvas, so a problem drags another problem, the constant presence of russian ships destroy the CV pick variaty. If you limit stalins and venezias, midway would be more viable because while it can't land 25k Alpha, its more effective at dealing with non-stationary targets than Haku and you will see a variety in CV picks as well.

 

Finally the spotting issues.

Spotting hurts not because the spotting itself, but what follows that, namely, again, long range accurate Alpha damage, which is ruled by, again, Stalingrad and Venezias that can SAP you and AP you for half hitpoints in moments across the entire map.

Everyone went through the following scenario:

Game starts, everyone move to position and show broadside to one another. Then rocket planes spot every side and people trade shots, within 30 seconds someone is going to find himself with half HP gone.

The immediate one to blame here will be the CV for spotting that early...but is it? the only ships that can snipe that easily at 20km are ofc Stalins... if there were no stalins and instead a mix of DM/salems Zaos...So CV would spot the positions, but it would be impossible for anyone to blap each other that hard and that easily.

The fact that a ship can snipe at such an insane range, for so much damage, from spawn to spawn and with such ease is a balance flaw in my opinion.

 

If you could ban russian ships and limit venezia picks from one CW season and keep CVs, I promise you that the gameplay would be far more enjoyable, for every class.

 

I think that those are the roots of the problem and not CVs.

 

 

 

 

 

[Captaindanz]

Thing is there is no counter play to cvs, they can keep you spotted for as long as they want, they can drop you whenever they want, at least rts cvs could use their fighters effectively to deny scouting and farming, now it's even worse.

About the old meta of camping behind islands, that's bs, we saw a lot of aggressive plays in kots, stalin isn't op as long as you don't give it broadside or just decide to farm it in the open with a light cruiser you will be fine, the main issue in the last cb season's was the smolensk. that's it.

Stalins are the new meta only because it's the closest thing to a bb, Venezia is the only cruiser that you can push with and not get nuked by a cv, or even cap.

[Miragetank90]

14 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

All that "strategical maneuvering and tactical pushing etc etc" is a stuff of legends.

 

Yes and no. On EU the mindset is different, it's a bit more campy. On RU however, teams are pushing and being a lot more aggressive, even in the highest leagues. 

 

At the end of the day, though, it boils down to the fact that centring your strat around a big push is kind of risky. It's not that it can't work, of course, but it's harder. Especially VS. a competent team, which is why towards the end of KOTS you tend to have more campy, less-risk plays, rather than in qualis where pretty much everyone from Hurricane to unrated is in the mix. 

[steveraptor]

Just now, Miragetank90 said:

 

Yes and no. On EU the mindset is different, it's a bit more campy. On RU however, teams are pushing and being a lot more aggressive, even in the highest leagues. 

 

At the end of the day, though, it boils down to the fact that centring your strat around a big push is kind of risky. It's not that it can't work, of course, but it's harder. Especially VS. a competent team, which is why towards the end of KOTS you tend to have more campy, less-risk plays, rather than in qualis where pretty much everyone from Hurricane to unrated is in the mix. 

This is true, and you also saw what happened to RU vs EU games.

Russian lost hard nearly every time they tried to play aggressive vs EU teams.

I was actually rooting hard for RU teams because it was a joy to see them playing aggressive with Kremlins and pushing in general, it was simply more interesting to watch.

[havaduck]

On 5/2/2020 at 1:20 PM, CptBarney said:

Well this thread is going to nice and orderly.

 

Best thread I have seen in a while; I can totally concur with these clans but even better ....... 

 

....... I expect some truly marvellous entertainment from the following pages. Lets go and see!

 

[steveraptor]

Just now, havaduck said:

 

Best thread I have seen in a while; I can totally concur with these clans but even better ....... 

 

....... I expect some truly marvellous entertainment from the following pages. Lets go and see!

 

Yeah, we CV players are playing with fire every time we come out to the forums.

[havaduck]

12 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

Yeah, we CV players are playing with fire every time we come out to the forums.

 

More than a BB captain complaining about HE/fires? Not sure about that but close enough; still:

 

 

Not every CV players deserves it tough the majority does.  The class as a whole and WG ofc deserves everything that can possibly be thrown at them ........ verbally and otherwise.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

Blind People can become to Simple Fallacies when they are Focused more on the Person

Sunleader is the only one who understands together with El2a

 

If course CVs are broken. They are so broken that any clan without the best CV players has an enormous disadvantage because CVs are so broken. 

That's why they changed their name. It kills opportunities for the rest. 

 

But telling it like this is to easy and obvious and boring. So I went the other way.

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Sunleader is the only one who understands together with El2a

 

If course CVs are broken. They are so broken that any clan without the best CV players has an enormous disadvantage because CVs are so broken. 

That's why they changed their name. It kills opportunities for the rest. 

 

But telling it like this is to easy and obvious and boring. So I went the other way.

 

Sigh there you go and Ruin my Efforts to explain it without revealing you....

[Steel_duck_1]

Please rename the thread THESO vs angry mob 

[_HMS_RICHY]

1 hour ago, steveraptor said:

Adding to what miragetank said:

 

They don't counter those ships because they do not play passive, they push, radar smolls/woosters/minos out of smoke and blap them, yoshes also get citadel ed easy by stalins at long range.

Also, there is no reason to bring Yosh instead of Venezia.

Generally any DPM ship is useless because long range Alpha dominates the meta, that's why Venezia and Stalins are everwhere.

 

Yoshes only get citadeled if giving too much broardside if it angles away no cit. same for wooster no cit if angled correctly. Watched a twa game the other day they ran 5 smolls and hak and halland they seemed to do quite well. Maybe it was just some play around still it worked.

 

[Panocek]

5 minutes ago, Steel_duck_1 said:

Please rename the thread THESO vs angry mob 

Angry THESO mob?