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Richard_V

Zao vs Des Moines

Tier X cuiser  

322 members have voted

  1. 1. Which sihp is worth the effort:

    • Zao
      171
    • Des Moines
      151

57 comments in this topic

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Beta Tester
122 posts
1,179 battles

zao.png

des.png

 

Hello Guys, I would like to know if grinding towards Zao makes any sense. On paper Des Moines looks like far superior choice.

 

Hitpoints

Zao: 44 900

Des Moines: 50 600

 

Speed:

Zao: 31 knots

Des Moines: 33 knots

 

Circle radius:

Zao: 840m

Des Moines: 770m

 

Main Battery:

Zao 4 x 3 203mm , 4.9 rounds per minute, 3800 HE 5400 AP   range 16.2 

Des Moines: 3 x 3 203 mm , 10 rounds per minute, 3000 HE 5000 AP , range 15,8

 

Torpedoes:

Zao: 4 x 5 610mm

Des Moines: none

 

Is there any hidden stat relevant in this comparison ?

 

 

zao.png

des.png

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Players
299 posts
692 battles

It's weird because the Zao with torpedos is kind of forced into closer range to maximise it's ability, where the Des Moines will just rip it a new rear-end with the massive 270.000 DPM it has, compared to the 223.400 of the Zao. 

 

I guess the superior range coupled with better concealment of the Zao comes into play. Dont know about either ones accuracy. 

Edited by chaplainDMK

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Weekend Tester
441 posts
3,830 battles

The Jap cruiser line feels pretty underpowered at the moment, they are very easy to citadel and the torps (although nasty) aren't eneough to balance that out.

 

The Des Moines is just a Beast.

The Pepsi, New Orleans and Baltimore where a bit tricky to play well, because their rate of fire is so low and the lack of planes (their strong point is very good AAA ... but without many planes that doesn't affect the match)

But the Des Moines is the reward for the long grind ....... that rate of fire with 203mm's is just silly fun. It east DD's and cruisers for breakfast and it will win 1 vs 1 against battleships if you know what you are doing. It will most likely get nerfed at some point (although the T10 battleships are pretty darn powerful as well at the moment) but for now it's the best ship in the game if you ask me.

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Beta Tester
135 posts
890 battles

Des Moines, no doubt. I prefer the IJN cruisers myself, but for Tier X there seems to be pretty much no contest. On paper the Zao has the best armor and alpha damage of all the cruisers, but since we don't know the exact armor distribution it's hard to tell if it actually is better or not, and at the end of the day it's still cruiser levels of armor. Penetration is also one of those stats that are hidden, so not much to say about that. The F3 torpedoes are the fastest in the game by a significant margin, but like on most IJN CAs they're mounted in a rather awkward position, limiting their usefulness to well-planned ambushes, pursuit deterrence and the occasional frantic, short-range brawl that occurs when ships bumble into each other around an island etc.

 

Oh, one big negative about the Zao is that it gives up the superior speed that's one of the big redeeming factors for the IJN cruisers.

Edited by Aernir
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Alpha Tester
17,384 posts
5,400 battles

Des Moines is a beast, I'm a bad DM captain by own admission though. I've gotten as far as Ibuki for IJN cruisers, but so far I think Ibuki > Baltimore ( though haven't played that this patch and it has gotten a rof buff which was it weakest point ). Don't think Zao > Des Moines though, if both captains are of equal ability the Des Moines should win the engagement.

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Beta Tester
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Hope they don't nerf the Des Moines, just got to the Baltimore.

 

The DM to me looks like what a tier 10 heavy cruiser should be, a real threat to BBs with it's ROF, shame the lower Cruisers bar Cleveand don't match it IMO.

 

Only way way long term for Cruisers to be competitive with Bs are to make them have really good DPM, though they need to fix the HE damage.

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[FAM]
Alpha Tester
2,435 posts
7,140 battles

Risking sounding pretentious, I'll try to give my opinion on this debate.

 

De Moines wins as the best cruiser but not neccesarily wins against the Zao. There are some nasty caracteristics of the Des Moines which make her have a hard time against a Zao:

 

- 3 turrets prone to be blown up. Furthermore, having only one on the back puts her in a disadvantage against a Zao if you are being chased.

- Citadels everywhere. Funnily enough, Des Moines is full of citadels: Her centerline is a huge citadel, below the turrets, specially the forward ones is also a huge citadel. Bonus points for the forward turrets since hitting there is citadel + blowing up the turret.

 

In contrast Zao:

 

- Is more tanky: 176 mm vs 150 mm in the citadel. Yep, those puny 26 extra mm in the armor can be the difference bettwen 1 or 2 203 mm shell citadels and 4 or even 5. Furthermore, Zao's citadel is just its centerline.

- High pen, high accuracy guns: Zao's gun penetrate incredibly well and are extremely accurate. Its shells patterns are very compact and can easily do 25k-30k damage with one salvo thanks to the citadels.

 

Well, what can I add? I've killed Des Moines with Senjo/Zao more than the other way.

 

Des Moines is really superior to Zao in one thing: Fighting BBs. The high RoF can simply demolish BBs if you manage to dodge incoming shots and since penetration and armor values of both ships doesn't matter against the unholy beasts, RoF is the deciding factor.

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Weekend Tester
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:great: thanks a lot for these informations. How much is repair cost ?

 

220k for the Des Moines.

 

I haven't played with the Zao, or against it for that matter, so I can't really compare them .... I just know that the Des Moines does as advertised : it pwns :playing:

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[BEWBS]
Beta Tester, In AlfaTesters
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Before the patch I would have said the Des Moines by far but since, the Des Moines has been a complete disaster for me. I get ripped apart by lower tier cruisers, I fought a Mogami while varying my speed and trying to maneuver a little he just sailed in a straight line(at about 12km range). I was left with 40% HP after using the new repair ability they added to it. 

 

The Des Moines currently takes longer than my Nagato to decelerate so make of that what you will, but right now to me at least it feels a bit broken. If they fix it come the release it will be my go to ship as its a really good all-rounder if used properly but right now something feels wrong with its armour and deceleration wise.

 

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Alpha Tester
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220k , now i understand why i never met one.

 

I got a premium account and am used to making money with Des Moines. Sure you have a very high repair bill but if you do enough damage you don't loose credits.

 

That said I had games where I died first and with no real damage, and those hurt. But one good game makes up for that so currently there is no problem at tier X unless you play badly. And that is how it should be.

 

Also, this economy is very inflated, wait for OBT to really feel the pain :bajan:

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[BIA]
Alpha Tester
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well, don't count with Zao's torpedoes. In 50 battles i was able to use them only 3 or 4 times. They have extremely short range to be useful on cruiser which needs to keep some distance from the enemy.

Another problem is Zao's turning ratio. It is really terrible. Even Yamato can turn faster and avoid torpedoes danger. So it is another problem when you want to take some risk and use own torpedoes. For DDs is this ship behind an isle easy kill even if Zao keeps its maximum (pretty low) speed.

Third problem. It is one of the longest ships in the game. Maybe it is second after Yamato.

And the last thing is ammo rack. It is HUGE. 

Edited by CerVus
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[SPUDS]
Beta Tester
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It's citadel is enormous because of it's torpedoes.

Take note of how easy the Kitakami is to citadel in the rear half. Torpedoes.

 

I think in the case of the last three tiers, the IJN cruisers would be better off without any torpedoes because of the improvement in survivability that would follow. It's not as if they are terribly effective, even if you get the entire salvo off.

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Alpha Tester
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2,805 battles

when the zao had 10 rpm and 20km torps it could easy dominate, now its a poor excuse of a tier 10

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Alpha Tester
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Zao should get 15km torps + 1km to maximum gun range to compensate ROF of DM and its poor armour. Then it could be fine ship.

Edited by CerVus

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Alpha Tester
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They point is they they want the torps to be secondary weapon and if they give it 15-20km torps it's becoming primary weapon and their entire gameplay will be around those torps and not the guns.

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Alpha Tester
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so there is still chance to give them long reload time or set maximum number of reserve torpedoes. Than it will be again secondary weapon.

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Beta Tester
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Torps for close fighting when needed and then long range firepower seems intresting Zao seems is intresting.

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Weekend Tester
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They point is they they want the torps to be secondary weapon and if they give it 15-20km torps it's becoming primary weapon and their entire gameplay will be around those torps and not the guns.

 

What happened to that announcement that devs are considering balancing IJN CAs around their guns, and not their torpedoes? Iirc, we heard it in the Japanese tech tree national video.

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Alpha Tester
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What happened to that announcement that devs are considering balancing IJN CAs around their guns, and not their torpedoes? Iirc, we heard it in the Japanese tech tree national video.

 

Did I said something different? I pointed out that player's suggestion to bring back the old long range torps are not considered by WG as far as we know, because they don't want theit torps to be the main weapon.

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[PRAVD]
Weekend Tester
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Did I said something different? I pointed out that player's suggestion to bring back the old long range torps are not considered by WG as far as we know, because they don't want theit torps to be the main weapon.

 

Yeah I know, I'm asking if you know of any further changes that might come to IJN guns that WG might have announced since you are a supertester :)

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Alpha Tester
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Yeah I know, I'm asking if you know of any further changes that might come to IJN guns that WG might have announced since you are a supertester :)

Well ST is under NDA so even if I know something KGB will track me down if I share it :hiding:

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[IBULL]
Beta Tester
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I would say Des Moines is brute force in an egg shell. It took me a while to learn that if you go against BB or another strong shooter you simply go straight. Except risk of loosing turrets you are pretty safe as those 30s salvos will most likely land on your port and starboard. BUT, side shells in the right place turn it into dust. 127mm AP has no bigger trouble to penetrate citadel. Other thing you can do with it - find a nice bunker island where you can hide and shoot ^^.

 

Zao from the other side seems more... tactical. Personally I didn't unlock it yet, but I play with friends and they are more 'ninja' with it comparing my Des Moines play. I actually cant wait to get it myself. If you think of it, doing 2 cruiser lines at the same time is not a bad idea. First of all you always have a ship waiting for you just in case you get pwnd. Another thing is a feel of tier and class. I was doing DD, BB, CA at the same time and most of the time I was doing things I should with other classes ^^

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Weekend Tester
48 posts
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Let's be honest the Zao sucks hard i really hate it that I start with the ijn Cruiser Line.
The Mogami is a really great ships and it was fun to play.

Now i have the Ibuki and that ship is a [edited] downgrade the guns are shitty as [edited]and its handle more like a BBs.
Is has way to less HP (on broadside u are dead) I hoped the repair ability would help but it does nothing ...
Why I get a ship that's way worse on a Tier higher and later a ship that's completely outclassed by his counterpart.

And yeah im really angry and Frustrated atm I spent a ton of Credits and Time in a ship that is useless as [edited]compare to the T8... and my next one will be the same hurray!

 

Edited by Kollektiv

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