Tanking isn't worth it

[AnotherDuck]

17 hours ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

The balance of the game is off. BBs from tier 8 and up not worth it anymore cause you are either chased by a DD you cant see and who can fire the strongest weapon in game without getting spotted, be H.E spammed from a cruiser hiding behind an island so you cant see it, hit it, get to it or get away from it and many overpowered ships that will very easily sink something like a Kurfurst as example.

This is pretty much BS. Sure, torpedoes are potentially the strongest weapons, but in practice DDs do less damage than other ships. HE spam is also less of an issue than AP spam from BBs. Even if you angle.

 

17 hours ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

Also i think that too many think of doing personal damage more than thinking as a team, so there is a lot of damage farming and hiding behind islands and running to the edges of map, more than an actual battle pushing forward to win.

They do that because that's the behaviour that WG rewards. Damage farming, and staying alive as long as possible, regardless of how much you much surf the border and how much you're losing.

 

12 hours ago, Azalgor said:

LoL. Today BB just get set on fire on cooldowns and burn to death, while those suposedly vulnerable targetrs get blapped by focus fire. Armor is long meaningless due to changes in mechanics.

Nah, fire isn't that big of a deal in BBs. It's perfectly healable, and on top of that far less than AP damage. It can be an issue if you misplay and attract too much focus, but some focus isn't too bad.

 

10 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

it's not like somebody else is going to do it.

That's one of my main drives in playing DDs. I do what my own DDs fail to do all too often.

 

10 hours ago, Jimbomaxi said:

Yes, but if your team playing decent, its very effective if you can" kite away" dragging 2 enemy BBs after you…  

I had a funny case in Shimakaze not too long ago. On Haven, I decided to pull a fast one and go for the enemy's original cap. Went straight through, got four ships on my tail, and went down to the corner. Meanwhile, unusually enough, my allies mopped the others up.

 

I did pretty much the same thing in a Yamato too. Well, aside from going straight through the enemy lines, but instead went to one of the "neutral" corners and hid somewhat behind an island. Three enemy BBs took their time trying to kill me, while my team took care of the rest of the map.

 

Even if you die, successfully pulling off a distraction like that is hilarious. Less hilarious if your team still manage to fail, which is a bit too frequent.

 

9 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

The incentive is to survive longer.

I don't think that's a good incentive, since the best way to accomplish that is to camp.

 

1 hour ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

I disagree a bit, in the fact that in many games BBs stay far back now on both sides. They rarely move forward until kills has happened on the opponent side.

When they do that, I just advance in my BB. The main threat is diminished, so I can more easily take care of the biggest threats to my DD allies.

 

26 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

It pays off by getting these two achievements for additional XP and the most useful signal flags:

I think I get Dreadnought at least half the time I survive in a BB.

[Itwastuesday]

Today I saw a Georgia and a shinyhorse push with a swedish destroyer right through the cap into our side of the map. The BB's died eventually, but we couldn't get that cap and couldn't kill any of their other ships and their team was 700 points to our 200...

 

I had taken damage before and they basically pushed me back (Shiratsuy). Georgia ate like just one torp too because I had to fire them toward his bow.

 

Is that the kind of tanking we're talking about?

[ColonelPete]

22 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

I don't think that's a good incentive, since the best way to accomplish that is to camp.

That was aimed at kiting and surviving.

You cannot camp when half the enemy team is behind you...

[ForlornSailor]

18 hours ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

 BBs from tier 8 and up not worth it anymore cause you are either chased by a DD you cant see and who can fire the strongest weapon in game without getting spotted, be H.E spammed from a cruiser hiding behind an island so you cant see it, hit it, get to it or get away from it

 

How about we fact-check your claims:

 

"High tier BBs  arenot worth it". --> Wrong --> Statistics say, you are wrong. BBs have almost highest avg damage on high tiers, only beaten by CVs.

"DD fire the strongest weapon in game." --> Wrong. --> DDs have tier-by-tier the lowest average damage. by far

 

Also, BBs have the highest survivabilty and the highest K/D ratio, if we once again leave aside the CVs.

 

Source: last weeks stats.

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200425/eu_week/average_class.html

 

[lossi_2018]

I played a sprint ranked after a long time. 4 dds in game, lots of new CAs, wanted to take Haku, last moment grabbed Yami. Now this is a cursed ship for me and the team started by losing 3 of our dds at about 5 mins. A couple of more ships down later I had parked in the mid of map seemingly next to rocks but not quite at the 20km-16km mark deciding to defend it whatever the cost, along with another brave Zao, holding alone one flank and a Venezia on my back. Game seemed lost, I tanked 2.5m something dmg which is whatever but my team stayed on other flank way back to see if we will live, a very slow range battle (I don't mind it since I can shoot when I had coffee before game) killed 3 ships when the enemy decided to get out and attack us (6 ships to their 9 by then) for whatever fookin reason lol, with the cap theirs and points 470 to 900. Rammed another (flag is nice). We won.

It was pretty good. Granted a better team would have send their dds to flank me better (simultaneously and not one by one as I can fire only one battery per target at a time, learned that in t3 I think) but they weren't bad and the delaying tactics kinda worked.

Our Zao was the MVP of the game btw, I just delayed them till they snapped. 

 

PS While I can't put stats up I believe most teams will throw the game if you deny them enough until about last 4-5 mins or if they reach 900 points. Thinking they will win whatever they will push for glory. Granted it is not a strategy I advertise as most effective haha :D 

[Dark_Knight08]

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

How about we fact-check your claims:

 

"High tier BBs  arenot worth it". --> Wrong --> Statistics say, you are wrong. BBs have almost highest avg damage on high tiers, only beaten by CVs.

"DD fire the strongest weapon in game." --> Wrong. --> DDs have tier-by-tier the lowest average damage. by far

 

Also, BBs have the highest survivabilty and the highest K/D ratio, if we once again leave aside the CVs.

 

Source: last weeks stats.

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200425/eu_week/average_class.html

 

you are missing the point completely...point being is that a BB has no point in tanking which this tread is about, among others due to the reasons i put in. A BB that tries to move forward and help push an attack from the beginning, is most often a fast death. So the stats is not important, but the way the gameplay and how the different ship classes are being used at the current time.

[Dark_Knight08]

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

This is pretty much BS. Sure, torpedoes are potentially the strongest weapons, but in practice DDs do less damage than other ships. HE spam is also less of an issue than AP spam from BBs. Even if you angle.

 

They do that because that's the behaviour that WG rewards. Damage farming, and staying alive as long as possible, regardless of how much you much surf the border and how much you're losing.

 

Nah, fire isn't that big of a deal in BBs. It's perfectly healable, and on top of that far less than AP damage. It can be an issue if you misplay and attract too much focus, but some focus isn't too bad.

 

That's one of my main drives in playing DDs. I do what my own DDs fail to do all too often.

 

I had a funny case in Shimakaze not too long ago. On Haven, I decided to pull a fast one and go for the enemy's original cap. Went straight through, got four ships on my tail, and went down to the corner. Meanwhile, unusually enough, my allies mopped the others up.

 

I did pretty much the same thing in a Yamato too. Well, aside from going straight through the enemy lines, but instead went to one of the "neutral" corners and hid somewhat behind an island. Three enemy BBs took their time trying to kill me, while my team took care of the rest of the map.

 

Even if you die, successfully pulling off a distraction like that is hilarious. Less hilarious if your team still manage to fail, which is a bit too frequent.

 

I don't think that's a good incentive, since the best way to accomplish that is to camp.

 

When they do that, I just advance in my BB. The main threat is diminished, so I can more easily take care of the biggest threats to my DD allies.

 

I think I get Dreadnought at least half the time I survive in a BB.

i agree that wg supports gameplay that is individual and not teamwork...mayor issue in the game at this point. The other part is not bs, think you are misunderstanding the point. If a BB moves forward and tries to tank (which is what the tread is about) and thereby helps to push an attack, it is a fast death among others du to those reasons. Sadly the way the gameplay is now there is very little dynamic gameplay cause no one has a reason to stock their nose out, except for DDs who already has too many things to achieve in a battle, but thats another discussion... 

[AnotherDuck]

38 minutes ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

The other part is not bs, think you are misunderstanding the point. If a BB moves forward and tries to tank (which is what the tread is about) and thereby helps to push an attack, it is a fast death among others du to those reasons.

No, no, and no, respectively. I mentioned some examples about where tanking in a BB is far more feasible than in any other ship (save perhaps super cruisers and Moskva, but those are arguably played somewhat like BBs). Sure, singular examples don't really prove a point, but the point there is that there are tactics where tanking is valuable and can change the match.

 

The problem is that the average BB player (speaking of high tier, in my experience) is more cowardly than any other player in the game (so they have very little practice in pushing), and less skilled (so they tend to do mistakes when they do). Therefore they don't understand how to push effectively without overdoing it. That's a fine balance, especially for ships that are sluggish in movement. The timing is also hard, since you need to know when your team is ready to assist, and when the enemy team shows weakness. Sometimes you just need to go for it, and sometimes you need to wait half the match. Quite often, you need to create the openings yourself.

 

In short, tanking properly in a BB requires skill, which a lot of BB players lack. Therefore they think it's not something you can do.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

On 4/28/2020 at 9:53 PM, ArsenicIndigo said:

I occasionally play BBs but noticed, tanking (which is one of the main roles of a BB) just doesn't pay. You tank millions of pot dmg but get bugger all for it.

Tanking IS worth it but not in the way you imagine. If you tank in a BB that means you take pressure away from your cruisers and DDs, which means they can do what they do to support you in your efforts, which means they firespam and torpspam your targets, screening torps, scouting enemy DDs spotting enemy team etc etc etc  which results in them either dying with you help or they panic and turns and gives you juicy broadsides that you can punish.

You tanking also means you will have greater chance at actually winning the game which will earn you damage, kills and some extra credits and XP.

 

So PLEASE never become one of those BBs that sit on the one line and do zero support or tanking and then at the halfway mark wonder why all youre teammates that actually pushed the objective without your support and tanking are dead and then cry about that while getting chased thru the border by 10 enemy ships.

[Taliesn]

In other news, shooting DDs with your big BB guns is not worth it either because you'll only hit with 1 out of 9 guns (if you're lucky) and that should be your DD and cruiser teammates' job anyway.

[lafeel]

5 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

In other news, shooting DDs with your big BB guns is not worth it either because you'll only hit with 1 out of 9 guns (if you're lucky) and that should be your DD and cruiser teammates' job anyway.

Guess that's the logic that explains why some players just don't even try to defend themselves against a rushing DD..with usually all too predictable results..

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, Taliesn said:

In other news, shooting DDs with your big BB guns is not worth it either because you'll only hit with 1 out of 9 guns (if you're lucky) and that should be your DD and cruiser teammates' job anyway. 

 

Sorry, but thats BS.

As most DDs dont have a heal, every bit of damage helps. Ive seen DDs with <300 health literally rape entire teams, because most likely a BB was too "proud" to shoot that pesky thing.

Also, if one of the DDs get backup from their BBs, guess which sides DD dies first?

 

Spoiler

 

I think i watched Flamu a couple of days ago, when he gunned down a BB with his Orkan. And the BB never shot him!

[DFens_666]

8 hours ago, Dark_Knight08 said:

point being is that a BB has no point in tanking which this tread is about, among others due to the reasons i put in. A BB that tries to move forward and help push an attack from the beginning, is most often a fast death.

 

If a BB could just push in at the beginning of the game, tank half the enemy team and not die, what would be the point?

Then you get 10 BBs hammering it out in the caps or what?

 

Also, BBs simply are the best tanks in the game. Sure, experienced cruiser players can also tank a few million potential by good dodging (or stupid BBs pounding a Moskva/Stalingrad without achieving anything), but BBs still need to take their share of it. They have the most HP, they always have a heal, they have the best armor protection.

[Kejoz]

11 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

This is pretty much BS. Sure, torpedoes are potentially the strongest weapons, but in practice DDs do less damage than other ships. HE spam is also less of an issue than AP spam from BBs. Even if you angle.

Well DD's do less damage on average but are the best in paying off their HP's. 

 

Seeing Shimakaze doing 90k isn't rare, Yamato with 500k dmg is a unicorn, stats wise average Yamato dmg is below its HP pool while Shimakazes triple their HP pool.

[Donar79]

Vor 8 Stunden, Dark_Knight08 sagte:

you are missing the point completely...point being is that a BB has no point in tanking which this tread is about, among others due to the reasons i put in. A BB that tries to move forward and help push an attack from the beginning, is most often a fast death. So the stats is not important, but the way the gameplay and how the different ship classes are being used at the current time.

In fact you missed the point "completely". @ForlornSailor showed you that BBs still doing well. If you can't manage to get this results and get along with "HE spammers" and "OP torp boats" then you should consider you are doing it wrong. It's called self reflection.

Tanking is one of your main tasks as a ship with the most armor and HP. There is always time for pushing, blocking, preserving and kiting. But it needs some skill and experience to know when it is the right time.

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 minute ago, Kejoz said:

Well DD's do less damage on average but are the best in paying off their HP's. 

 

Seeing Shimakaze doing 90k isn't rare, Yamato with 500k dmg is a unicorn, stats wise average Yamato dmg is below its HP pool while Shimakazes triple their HP pool.

Yes but a Yamato doing 500k  probably destroyed half the enemy team.

A shima could have done 90k damage by flooding a GK who is now back at two thirds health.

[Taliesn]

 

 

33 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Sorry, but thats BS.

As most DDs dont have a heal, every bit of damage helps. Ive seen DDs with <300 health literally rape entire teams, because most likely a BB was too "proud" to shoot that pesky thing.

Also, if one of the DDs get backup from their BBs, guess which sides DD dies first?

 

Ermmm, that was a tongue in cheek comment...  (we're missing a sarcasm emoji I'd say)

[DFens_666]

Just now, Taliesn said:

 

 

Ermmm, that was a tongue in cheek comment...  (we're missing a sarcasm emoji I'd say)

 

Sorry, this forum has killed my sense for sarcasm

[Taliesn]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

Sorry, this forum has killed my sense for sarcasm

 

And I can totally see why! 

[Kejoz]

52 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Yes but a Yamato doing 500k  probably destroyed half the enemy team.

A shima could have done 90k damage by flooding a GK who is now back at two thirds health.

Both numbers are rounded hp pools multiplied by 5. I couldn't find a single Yamato 500k battle so reaching that number is probably impossible without giving RNGsus your soul as an offering. 90k by flooding with torps ? Kind of unlikely with 25% torpedo protection.

 

I often see posts about BB being overpowered BBabies while destroyers being martyrs of WoWs. Sole numbers paint a different image, as most of battleships fail to pay off their hp pool (we are not taking heal into account, that would make them even worse). Best performing easily obtainable battleships (in terms of average dmg) on tier VII and X are the brits  (Nelson, Conq and Thunderer), that is due to them having access to zombie heal and powerful HE shells. Funny thing is that from tier IX some DD's catch up BB's in average damage while having a lot less hp's. Adding submarines is going to be painful for battleships.

 

In a game where damage dealt is the main source of profit , tanking is not worth it, battleship would be better off sniping HE shells from afar. But is it fun? 

[lafeel]

50 minutes ago, Kejoz said:

I couldn't find a single Yamato 500k battle so reaching that number is probably impossible without giving RNGsus your soul as an offering.

It's technically possible, if you manage to land multiple citadels in every salvo you fire. Extremely unlikely though.

[DFens_666]

25 minutes ago, Kejoz said:

Sole numbers paint a different image, as most of battleships fail to pay off their hp pool

 

You do know there is a limited amount of HP within a battle? How would that be possible, when there are often 5 BBs out of 12 ships per game? (sometimes less, extremely rarely more).

Even with heals added, you cant expect every ship to take full advantage of their heals, especially cruisers often will get much less out of it than they normaly could, because they take citadels or get outright deleted. And most of the BB players probably wont even take full use of their heals, id say 1 citadel already is enough to make it close to impossible, unless you only get fire damage, which doesnt really happen either.

I just had a Massa game where i tanked the absolute maximum from 5 heals + Healflag. Not to mention, not every ship dies in a battle, and 1 team often has many survivors.

 

But if lets say we have a battle with 5 BBs, 4 Cruisers and 3 DDs on TX.

Average BB HP is like 90k ish, Cruisers maybe 50-55k and DDs ~20k each. That together gets us somewhere between 700-750k, ofc could be even more or less, depending on ships, as it varies quite a lot, like Bourgogne vs Kremlin or Smolensk vs Stalingrad. With heals, you might be getting 900k-1million at absolute maximum, which i think is far more than an average game will yield.

1 million / 12 = 83k per ship. Basicly impossible for BBs to get their HP in damage. As we already established, DDs get 2-3x their HP in damage per game, while Cruisers are at 1,5-2x . And when we put CVs in there aswell, it gets even worse, as they take more than their own HP in damage, while often surviving unharmed (atleast 1 of the 2, or even more accurate: out of 4 CVs, 1 dies)

[lafeel]

Jingles said it best, sure he was talking about WoT at the time, but it's just as true in WoWS.

 

To get a game like that (a truly great game kills/damage wise) you need two things: a incompetent enemy team, and a slightly less competent own team.

[Kejoz]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

You do know there is a limited amount of HP within a battle? How would that be possible, when there are often 5 BBs out of 12 ships per game? (sometimes less, extremely rarely more).

Yes i do. I am not stating that battleships should do more damage, they are damage sponges, without them battles would end much faster. I strongly oppose those saying that battleships are imbalanced, they are pretty much balanced, with a solid skill ceiling. 

[AnotherDuck]

10 hours ago, Taliesn said:

In other news, shooting DDs with your big BB guns is not worth it either because you'll only hit with 1 out of 9 guns (if you're lucky) and that should be your DD and cruiser teammates' job anyway.

Actually, that's false. Sure, you should probably not try to snipe DDs, but if they're within reasonable range, shoot them. Even if you only do overpens, that's still a lot of damage for a fragile DD. And if your own DDs are in a fight with that DD, you're helping them out just a little bit to survive. I mean, would you rather have one more DD on your team and one less on the enemy team, or 5k-10k more damage if you take the shot on a larger target?

 

9 hours ago, Kejoz said:

Well DD's do less damage on average but are the best in paying off their HP's. 

Paying off your HP is a rather strange argument. Why should a Myoko have to do several thousand more damage than a Yorck or Zara to pull her weight?