Thunderer HE spam

[ColonelPete]

22 minutes ago, EnacheV said:

so whats going on here ?

 

minigun cruisers complaining that some random battleship is stealing their fire damage ?

 

translation : is ok for me to spam HE at a rate of 90-200 shells per minute , nerf this guy cause he is stealing my fires

 

lol

Once again you missed the point.

People usually complain about getting lit on fire, as is the case here.

[EnacheV]

lets quote the experts

 

Both ships share the preference to sit back at very long range and to pound enemy into submission.  Where the two differ is that Conqueror has the flexibility to close in and tank for a while grace of her portable dry-dock.  Thunderer is arguably one of the (if not THE) squishiest tier X battleships though Bourgogne will give her a run for her money.  So while Conqueror can take a bunch of abuse for her team and zombie-heal through the worst of it, Thunderer is much more timid and less likely to recover.  This leads to a lot more passive play, often forcing her to kite and play the back line.

 

so if you take ability to do damage from distance what do you end up with ? a paper tissue with no guns ?

 

and getting light on fire is an additional mechanic to increase game complexity, ofc you can get rid of it but the game becomes much much simpler

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

This is all due to WG not understanding their own product. Same as smaland for example they put too many eggs into one basket. 

 

Giving a bb vision control, a fire chance every ca would kill for, overmatch, battle cruiser accuracy and a reload on 457s that is just really hard to fathom is mental. I mean yes, the ship is soft, but that won't matter when it can disengage at will. 

 

Oh and being the best bb to shoot dds doesn't hurt either. 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, EnacheV said:

so if you take ability to do damage from distance what do you end up with ? a paper tissue with no guns ?

 

So other BBs, whos HE is inferior to UK BB HE (which is everyone btw) also have no possibility to deal damage from range? Does AP have a range cap or something? 457mm guns are not good enough?

12,3km concealment on the Thunderer is the best on TX BBs. Compared to Yamato f.e. which only gets 14,1km, or GK which gets 14,3km. Even many TX Cruisers cant get 12,3km concealment... Do you think they have better armor than Thunderer??

[RossijskijAxisFlot]

19 ore fa, NikolayKuznetsov ha scritto:

 

 

The only way to balance it is community-balance, if enough people hate this ship and focus it, you'll start seeing it less, that's what happened to Smolensk. If you're a carrier, be the good guy for once, bomb the thunderer. If you're a destroyer, don't yolo the jean bart 7km away from you, waste some time and yolo the thunderer 11km away from you, if you're in a hindenburg, don't spam the montana, spam the thunderer. If 2 ships are spamming you, put out Thunderer's fires but don't put out the fires from whatever else is spamming you. If you meet them in ranked, do whatever you can to make sure thunderer does not save his/her star etc.

YES YES ! we need to send them to hell, thunderers and their players muahahahaha 

[RossijskijAxisFlot]

14 ore fa, NikolayKuznetsov ha scritto:

Didn't even know that, don't remember this ever happening either so I wouldn't get my hopes up. Realistically, the only way Thunderer gets balanced is community balancing. You hate it, I hate it, everyone hates it, so focus it. Smolensk spam stopped because pepegas spamming smolensk were like 'Holy F* why me, why always me, why won't anyone shoot anything but me'

This is an unconcious thing many people do when they hate a ship, it's a concious thing for some, I literally have a Hindenburg with 25km range and 21pt Lütjens for the sole purpose of making Thunderers miserable after they pissed me off too much.

In world of warships, sadly, there's limits to how much of an extremist you can be. In war thunder there was a plane that was ruining the game for everyone, the TU-4. Everyone hated that thing, I took it upon myself to become the hard counter to them, spamming MIG9L, all I did - for thousands of games, was charge into the enemy TU-4 and trade.

It became such an issue that I would spawn, say "hello" in chat and TU-4 players would recognize my name and eject out of their plane before take-off. My trend picked up, forums were on fire from mad TU-4 players, the plane got nerfed and the griefing stopped. Sometimes community balancing is necessary.

I love you hahahahahaha 

[Russia_Moth_Her_Lamp]

Resume the thunderer problem to "fires are 100% repairable" is completly wrong. 

 

Firstly when you take 1,2 or 3 fires generally there are 10k damage in addition. 15k if you are not saturated in early game. So if you don't repair it is potentially 25k less for you... 

 

Secondly there is no one single thunderer in the game. More 2 or 3... 

They can shoot at 24km with a ridiculous precision (and more with DE). 

Great deal when you are in a kremlin or gk... 

 

The thing is a bb shoud not have to worry about bb he. It is an heresy and a replacement of real cruisers or dd which need he and fires more than a thunderer... 

 

The problem is the he too powerful. So players keep staying at +20km spamming he and making their team loose whereas its ap is really strong and should be played closer. 

[Fat_Maniac]

20 hours ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

That's how you use DCP against any other ship, not against thunderer. Thunderer has almost 80% chance of getting a double fire on you per salvo, 55% chance of getting a triple fire on you per salvo, every 21 seconds. The way you deal with Thunderer is you let the first double/triple fire burn for 20 seconds and hit DCP right before the second double/triple fire hits you, this way you put out six fires with one DCP. Letting a triple fire burn for 20 seconds feels weird but it's the only way to stop Thunderer from burning you to death with pepega HE shells from 25km.

Alternatively, stick to T8 battleships if you want to have fun in a battleship, T8s don't see 8-10 thunderers per match and unlike T7 battleships, they are covered in 32mm - not 26mm. So they are not overmatched by everything and do not spontaneously combust when bottom tier.

 

Thunderer is the dumbest ship in the entire game and it's never going to stop, every content creator said it's easy to do 300K damage in them so everyone got one. Content creators did not lie, look at any 40% WR pepega, if he has thunderer, his damage record is 350K-375K in Thunderer, it's so easy your dog could do it. This is not like Smolensk where many people got one and you see them less overtime, battleships are 10X more popular, everyone got one. And potatoes have no reason to play anything else because Thunderer lets them get 200K every game from the J-line, they never do 75K in anything else, why would they stop.

 

The only way to balance it is community-balance, if enough people hate this ship and focus it, you'll start seeing it less, that's what happened to Smolensk. If you're a carrier, be the good guy for once, bomb the thunderer. If you're a destroyer, don't yolo the jean bart 7km away from you, waste some time and yolo the thunderer 11km away from you, if you're in a hindenburg, don't spam the montana, spam the thunderer. If 2 ships are spamming you, put out Thunderer's fires but don't put out the fires from whatever else is spamming you. If you meet them in ranked, do whatever you can to make sure thunderer does not save his/her star etc.

Sorry but Thunderer isn't the issue. AP BB's sit back and spam too but they are not as effective as a HE spamming Thunderer Just like daka daka HE boats aren't the issue. They are simply another playstyle in the list WoWS gives us.

The real problem is how dumb HE spam is to use and farm damage. If you can hit your target you are guaranteed damage  In a game where more damage means economic prizes and faster progression, of course people will shoot HE all day long if they can. WG need to balance the damage fires actually do. Yes we have DCP and fire control skills, but they only work for so long. Constant HE spam will always win out in the end, so all you can do is disengage or die. What does the player learn? Don't engage in the first place sit back and spam, hence the campy meta we have.

 

I have Thunderer and I hate having to sit back and spam,  in my head as a BB driver I want to be moving  with the team supporting what's around me, but WG give me no other choice with Thunderer. Yes Thunderer has an insane fire chance and can spam from range, but she doesn't have Conquerors super print me another boat heal, and melts under sustained HE fire herself. You can't push in her and you cant defend a flank in her, so what's left? Sit back and spam.

You suggest a community drive to kill Thunderer's on sight. The only thing that will do is end up with the ship receiving buffs from WG, as the glorious spreadsheet shows her survivability drops.

 

AP BB's sit back and spam too but they are not as effective as a HE spamming Thunderer, So fix the reason players feel they have to camp, not tweak around the issue by changing individual boats, fix the core game mechanic that drives the playstyle we all hate.

[Prophecy82]

2 hours ago, EnacheV said:

so whats going on here ?

 

minigun cruisers complaining that some random battleship is stealing their fire damage ?

 

translation : is ok for me to spam HE at a rate of 90-200 shells per minute , nerf this guy cause he is stealing my fires

 

lol

 

Funny how you can have an opinion of things you havent even experienced according to your account. 

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

as the glorious spreadsheet shows her survivability drops.

 

Conqueror / Thunderer survivability. Only surpassed by Slava, which has 50%. Shikishima is same as Thunderer with 45,62% (stats from last week btw).

Incidently, a lot of BBs seems to have higher survivability than usually, there are plenty with around 40% or even slightly more. But i think a drop in survivability wouldnt be too bad for Thunderer (or Conqueror aswell for that matter).

 

17 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

I have Thunderer and I hate having to sit back and spam,  in my head as a BB driver I want to be moving  with the team supporting what's around me, but WG give me no other choice with Thunderer. Yes Thunderer has an insane fire chance and can spam from range, but she doesn't have Conquerors super print me another boat heal, and melts under sustained HE fire herself. You can't push in her and you cant defend a flank in her, so what's left? Sit back and spam.

 

Well, Bourgogne has same armor (except citadel is not as vulnerable), with less HP, smaller guns with worse dispersion, but 12 instead of 8, and the HE is not as potent. Bourgogne is faster, but less maneuvrable.

Thunderer should just not have the same HE as other UK BBs. At this point, WG should probably look into removing the firechance entirely from BBs, because thats a big reason why this game is becoming so toxic.

[Fat_Maniac]

13 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

At this point, WG should probably look into removing the firechance entirely from BBs, because thats a big reason why this game is becoming so toxic.

That would have huge implications for the RN BB line. I like the idea but WG would have to find a new way to screw over the RN BB's. They could give them SAP.. After all we did invent it but SAP is just as toxic in my opinion.

[arttuperkunas]

3 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

That would have huge implications for the RN BB line. I like the idea but WG would have to find a new way to screw over the RN BB's. They could give them SAP.. After all we did invent it but SAP is just as toxic in my opinion.

It would have potentially bigger implications for the FR BB line IMO. RN HE has, at least, super HE pen damage, whereas the Frenchies need their fires.

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, Fat_Maniac said:

That would have huge implications for the RN BB line. I like the idea but WG would have to find a new way to screw over the RN BB's. They could give them SAP.. After all we did invent it but SAP is just as toxic in my opinion.

 

10 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

It would have potentially bigger implications for the FR BB line IMO. RN HE has, at least, super HE pen damage, whereas the Frenchies need their fires.

 

They could ofc just buff direct HE damage, or make it more uniform. Like a bit higher damage for germans, which have absolutely abysmal HE damage.

 

Also i personaly disagree, that any BB relies on setting fires. That really already shows the problem: If i dont get fires, im useless. No, thats not true. You need better positioning - thats true. But that also means, that you have to learn something. Contrary to sitting in the back with a Thunderer, and just farm HE/fire damage. If people dont want to learn to play with UK/French BBs, thats also fine. Just pick some other, we have enough variety by now for everyone.

 

 

I hardly ever use/used HE with any of those. Only exceptions are KGV/Bourgogne, where i did use it a bit more often. And with KGV, i actually got sick of it half way through the grind. I started playing AP only, and only used HE against DDs (where i dont rely on fires either).

 

QE: AP only

Nelson: Mostly AP only.

Lyon: Usually AP only, sometimes i shot HE, but the shotgun style dispersion meant its mostly useless against angled targets, so looking for a broadside was generally the better option.

KGV: see above, first games i tried HE spammer - got sick of it and switched to AP

Richelieu: Basicly AP only

Monarch: Also almost AP only

JB: Havent played it in a while, but usually AP

Alsace: Occasionally shot HE, mostly against DDs tho. In general i was looking for targets where i could use AP.

Bourgogne: A bit more HE, especially the last couple of games ive played. Which was due to the more camping style meta we had lately, where shooting broadsides was hardly possible.

 

Id rather not have more SAP. WG showed once again, that they cant balance this ammo with italian BBs. Personaly i like the shortfuse-AP from UK BBs. Its so good against Cruisers. Yes, citadelling BBs is hard, but their pen is already pretty low, so even with normal AP they might struggle. And thanks to the shorter fuse, they get more pens. WG has the option to lower the armor threshold necessary to arm the shell, like they did with Stalingrad.

I also like the smaller caliber french BBs, which often get more cits/pens on Cruisers compared to the 457mm BBs. They do lack overmatch, but they make up for it with more consistent damage on broadsides imo (except Richelieu - that was just a lottery between devstrike or overpens).

[arttuperkunas]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

stuff

While I agree that HE spam is a pretty sub optimal way to play any BB, this game isn't balanced around super-unicums, or merely good-ish BB drivers like me, but around potatoes. If they have currently balanced certain lines around setting fires, then something does indeed have to change. And the way I see the average FR bb driven right now relies a lot on fire setting and HE spam.

[DFens_666]

26 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

While I agree that HE spam is a pretty sub optimal way to play any BB, this game isn't balanced around super-unicums, or merely good-ish BB drivers like me, but around potatoes. If they have currently balanced certain lines around setting fires, then something does indeed have to change. And the way I see the average FR bb driven right now relies a lot on fire setting and HE spam. 

 

As i said in the beginning, they could just increase the HE Alpha. Id rather face a ship with more direct damage, than one that sets 2 fires every single time while sitting in his own spawn

[arttuperkunas]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

As i said in the beginning, they could just increase the HE Alpha. Id rather face a ship with more direct damage, than one that sets 2 fires every single time while sitting in his own spawn

In general, I think that's a good idea.

 

In particular, I have trouble imagining what increased Thunderer HE alpha looks like :P.

[EnacheV]

1 hour ago, Prophecy82 said:

 

Funny how you can have an opinion of things you havent even experienced according to your account. 

 

its just simple logic, apply to any game

 

there is a difference between OP mechanics that needs to be tuned down or up versus whiny players crying about things (very particular instances, not always encountered, not consistent) that limit their success in their favorite vehicle. Guess what, the 2nd situation is working as intended.

[Dragontrn]

39 minutes ago, EnacheV said:

 

its just simple logic, apply to any game

 

there is a difference between OP mechanics that needs to be tuned down or up versus whiny players crying about things (very particular instances, not always encountered, not consistent) that limit their success in their favorite vehicle. Guess what, the 2nd situation is working as intended.

You just play this game 1 month, and your highest tier is 5, wait until you get to t10 bb and we will see. I hate when people talking about a thing that they don't know about. Yes you are experienced in WoTs but nothing to compare here

[SV_Kompresor]

16 minutes ago, Dragontrn said:

You just play this game 1 month, and your highest tier is 5, wait until you get to t10 bb and we will see 

I recommend worcester for him...after all, it's the most OP machinegun cruiser.

[Dragontrn]

3 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

I recommend worcester for him...after all, it's the most OP machinegun cruiser.

With range module mounted 

[Hirohito]

5 hours ago, EnacheV said:

so whats going on here ?

 

minigun cruisers complaining that some random battleship is stealing their fire damage ?

 

translation : is ok for me to spam HE at a rate of 90-200 shells per minute , nerf this guy cause he is stealing my fires

 

lol

That is a problem, yes.
The issue is not about "who gets that nice fire damage to pad his stats", but what is effective for the team as a whole.
Cruisers and DDs rely on fire damage to a large extent when pressuring a BB, because (especially for DDs and low calibre cruisers), they lack the HE pen damage to pressure an enemy BB.
When a BB fires HE to light up multiple fires on a BB, that BB has just taken fires away that could have been set by a cruiser and DD.
This is a problem, because if the BB had shot AP instead, the result would now be that the target BB would take combined damage of BB AP and the pressure from fires set by cruisers and DDs, adding up to a whole lot more combined outgoing damage.
Whereas when a BB sets multiple fires, the cruisers and DDs might not be able to put out much damage at all and often might as well just focus a different target, which can lead the target BB to slip away to heal up instead of getting sunk.

This is not about "who gets to shoot HE for nice fire damage", but playing intelligently to allow for as much team dpm as possible.
BBs firing HE might do good damage themselves, but they do so on behalf of smaller calibre ships who suddenly lack viable options to add pressure on a target that needs to die.

[NewHorizons_1]

12 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

That is a problem, yes.
The issue is not about "who gets that nice fire damage to pad his stats", but what is effective for the team as a whole.
Cruisers and DDs rely on fire damage to a large extent when pressuring a BB, because (especially for DDs and low calibre cruisers), they lack the HE pen damage to pressure an enemy BB.
When a BB fires HE to light up multiple fires on a BB, that BB has just taken fires away that could have been set by a cruiser and DD.
This is a problem, because if the BB had shot AP instead, the result would now be that the target BB would take combined damage of BB AP and the pressure from fires set by cruisers and DDs, adding up to a whole lot more combined outgoing damage.
Whereas when a BB sets multiple fires, the cruisers and DDs might not be able to put out much damage at all and often might as well just focus a different target, which can lead the target BB to slip away to heal up instead of getting sunk.

Also add to the equation that the target BB can heal back most of the HE damage, unlike AP damage which is harder to repair.

[EnacheV]

20 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

I recommend worcester for him...after all, it's the most OP machinegun cruiser.

 

i checked it out on wiki

 

very nice ship

 

at tier 5 cruisers kinda suk tbh

[USS_Billy_Herrington]

2 minutes ago, EnacheV said:

 

i checked it out on wiki

 

very nice ship

 

at tier 5 cruisers kinda suk tbh

Furutaka/Kirov/Omaha/Exeter/Konigsberg say hello

[EnacheV]

2 minutes ago, a_steaming_pile_of_ship said:

Furutaka/Kirov/Omaha/Exeter/Konigsberg say hello

 

german one is nice indeed

 

Omaha ? lol , thats a walking 1 shoot to be deleted ship, not gonna play pvp in it

 

cant comment on the others yet except from looking at their stats and wiki pages and not impressed tbh