Abusive language / player attitude

[AnotherDuck]

15 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

No, that statement is an appreciation of a general truth. Insults are neither a constructive nor socially acceptable way of getting anywhere(comedy routines notwithstanding) or are you suggesting otherwise? 

It's acceptable against people who deliberately grief and bring the joy of others down for the benefit of themselves alone.

 

In general, no, but this isn't a general situation, so don't pretend it is. It is however false to say that because a person insults someone she doesn't have the capacity for a more refined language. And insulting the intelligence of someone because they insult others is hypocritical and on an even lower level, because they do the same thing while also lying about doing it, unlike the people they insult.

 

15 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Are the racial insults directed towards Chinese individuals as a result of the pandemic acceptable and perfectly reasonable, and should not be dismissed out of hand nor reprimanded? 

That has nothing to do with what I said. It would be applicable if the Chinese deliberately spread the pandemic. They didn't, so it's not comparable.

[Miragetank90]

41 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

It's acceptable against people who deliberately grief and bring the joy of others down for the benefit of themselves alone.

 

According to you, that is the CV. So how do you know whether someone in a CV is playing it because they want to deliberately grief others? Using myself as an example, I'm not interested in griefing people, I just like Carriers and warships in general, so I play them. Am I still qualified to be a target of righteous indignation, even though griefing doesn't interest me in the least? 

 

41 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

That has nothing to do with what I said. It would be applicable if the Chinese deliberately spread the pandemic. They didn't, so it's not comparable.

 

It's not exact but there are some parallels. WG created the CV for WoWs. WoWs players play the CV. They get targeted by insults just for playing the CV.

The virus originated in China. Chinese travellers spread the virus. Chinese abroad get targeted by insults just for being Chinese. 

 

In either case, nobody is deliberately spreading anything. In WoWs, the players play what has been given to them, the CV playerbase at large is not deliberately making you mad by playing the class, it's the mechanics and implementation of the class that are making you mad. The individual is not at fault, so they should not be targeted.

 

If you have anything to say about CVs, you should save your insults and instead take your beef to WG. 

 

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Cussing helps with pain relief. If you dont' believe me, ask Brian Blessed.

[Tatsfield]

2 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

No. That argument is just a veiled insult in itself towards people that simply dismisses them because they use a language you don't approve of. It's a pretense of higher morality while in reality it does the exact same thing but without being honest about it.

Well let's see:  Bollocks

 

Do you actually prefer that?  Of course not.  Racial slurs, homophobic taunts and childish insult are not the same as reasoned discussion and an exchange of views, and you know that but like the strange paradox of logically arguing that verbal abuse is an acceptable form of social interchange.  Pull the other one!

[Tatsfield]

I did try to demonstrate to AnotherDuck the effects of insult but unlike in-game chat, the mods delete any chance to offer him an example of what might hurt his feelings.  Probably he will continue to believe that aggression, insult and wounding are acceptable social behaviour.  I must watch out for him on the battle field.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Miragetank90 said:

According to you, that is the CV. So how do you know whether someone in a CV is playing it because they want to deliberately grief others? Using myself as an example, I'm not interested in griefing people, I just like Carriers and warships in general, so I play them. Am I still qualified to be a target of righteous indignation, even though griefing doesn't interest me in the least?

 

Yes, as regardless of what your intention is, you're still griefing.

Otherwise such a line of reasoning can very well be used to justify pretty much everything, including outright cheating.

 

38 minutes ago, Tatsfield said:

I did try to demonstrate to AnotherDuck the effects of insult but unlike in-game chat, the mods delete any chance to offer him an example of what might hurt his feelings.

 

Somehow I seriously doubt anything you say might hurt the feelings of @AnotherDuck.

[Miragetank90]

44 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes, as regardless of what your intention is, you're still griefing.

 

 

I get the point you're making, I suppose that makes you and me griefers. In any case, I don't agree that we're griefing people simply by playing the CVs we are provided with. Griefing implies going out of your way/deriving pleasure from actively trolling someone within the game. All you are doing, I venture, is playing to win, and getting your damage, just like any other class. Only, the tools CVs are provided with are a source of anxiety, and the way they have to be played is misconstrued as griefing. 

 

When the subs come out, we'll be seeing this accusation come around again when you get subs harassing BB players all game, thanks to them making use of their tools and mechanics inherent in the design. Doesn't mean it'll be correct. 

 

44 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Otherwise such a line of reasoning can very well be used to justify pretty much everything, including outright cheating.

 

I don't see how. Cheating is a result of a conscious decision to break the established rules to gain an advantage. You cheat with the intention to do so. I can't speak for everyone of course, but I don't play CVs with the idea that I want to give people a crappy time(Otherwise, I wouldn't play a piece of crap like Indomitable ) and I'd hazard a guess that most people don't. Further, you and me are not breaking any rules by playing CVs. 

[AnotherDuck]

3 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

According to you, that is the CV. So how do you know whether someone in a CV is playing it because they want to deliberately grief others?

Because you're playing a CV. That's all. It doesn't matter if you try to be nice, you're ruining the game for a bunch of players every time you make that choice. Like it or not, that's what you're doing.

 

3 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

It's not exact but there are some parallels. WG created the CV for WoWs. WoWs players play the CV. They get targeted by insults just for playing the CV.

The virus originated in China. Chinese travellers spread the virus. Chinese abroad get targeted by insults just for being Chinese. 

It's still a strawman, because those "parallels" aren't aligned. Unless, again, you want to claim the Chinese deliberately spread the virus.

 

3 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

In either case, nobody is deliberately spreading anything. In WoWs, the players play what has been given to them, the CV playerbase at large is not deliberately making you mad by playing the class, it's the mechanics and implementation of the class that are making you mad. The individual is not at fault, so they should not be targeted.

It's still their choice. It's like spamming cheap attacks in fighting games in a tournament and getting the entire audience to hate you. Technically legal, but you're ruining the experience for a lot of people.

 

3 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

If you have anything to say about CVs, you should save your insults and instead take your beef to WG.

Oh, don't worry, I do that too. But I don't actually tend to insult players just for playing CV. I might insult WG, WG's employers, and their creations when they consistently don't listen to feedback, but they like to censor that kind of stuff, because they don't like owing up to what they do. Or fail to do, as is the case more often.

 

2 hours ago, Tatsfield said:

Well let's see:  Bollocks

 

Do you actually prefer that?  Of course not.  Racial slurs, homophobic taunts and childish insult are not the same as reasoned discussion and an exchange of views, and you know that but like the strange paradox of logically arguing that verbal abuse is an acceptable form of social interchange.  Pull the other one!

I've not said they're an acceptable form of social interchange. I've said that people who step on others to have fun deserve them.

 

2 hours ago, Tatsfield said:

I did try to demonstrate to AnotherDuck the effects of insult but unlike in-game chat, the mods delete any chance to offer him an example of what might hurt his feelings.  Probably he will continue to believe that aggression, insult and wounding are acceptable social behaviour.  I must watch out for him on the battle field.

Don't care much for insults. I mean, someone on teh intrawebs tells me to [WG-disapproved expression], it doesn't really affect me much, so your demonstration would fail. And you're just as insulting in this post anyway by trying to frame me as some kind of [WG-disapproved expression].

[Miragetank90]

56 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Because you're playing a CV. That's all. It doesn't matter if you try to be nice, you're ruining the game for a bunch of players every time you make that choice. Like it or not, that's what you're doing.

 

Like I said: Take it to WG. Your condoning Insults do nothing to solve your problem, and the act of the insult only serves to give you a temporary, imaginary victory over the internet at someone else's expense, that is playing a class provided to them. And still WG does nothing, and still you keep at it, because it's how you cope with what is going on(Nothing is changing, they don't listen, CVs are OP) Look, everybody has coping mechanisms of some kind and I mean, no one can stop you of course, but what progress do you honestly feel is being made towards anything with this kind of behaviour, that you condone it?

 

56 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

It's still a strawman, because those "parallels" aren't aligned. Unless, again, you want to claim the Chinese deliberately spread the virus.

 

It's not exact, but it doesn't have to be. But feel free to disregard it if you want, it doesn't undermine my points and is not the crux of our conversation. And no, of course not. You can read as much yourself, I never talked about that. 

 

56 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

It's still their choice. It's like spamming cheap attacks in fighting games in a tournament and getting the entire audience to hate you. Technically legal, but you're ruining the experience for a lot of people.

 

Fighting games are different. It's not fair to compare spamming cheap attacks to playing a class of ship. One example why: No one picks up a fighting game and says ''I want to spam cheap attacks'' but in WoWs, you have a large number of people who picked up the game just because they like the idea of a WWII Naval Combat game, a sizeable number of which are also interested in helming a Carrier. I was one of those people. I actually just like enormous ships, I think they're beautiful, I want to play them and collect them.  And now look, I'm a BB main by a huge margin, with Cruiser and CV as my strongest class. Do these people deserve to be derided simply for partaking in what the game offers? Again, no, they don't. Again, this is neither their fault nor their problem, and any grievances you have should be directed towards WG. But not like this:

 

56 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Oh, don't worry, I do that too. But I don't actually tend to insult players just for playing CV. I might insult WG, WG's employers, and their creations when they consistently don't listen to feedback, but they like to censor that kind of stuff, because they don't like owing up to what they do. Or fail to do, as is the case more often.

 

Because even if they don't listen, insults literally do nothing but make you feel better for a while. In another scenario, say away from WoWs and irl, this just ends up hurting your cause, and possible physical trauma to your person. You know this. So why do it? 

 

Better to be polite and persistent. Maybe they won't change a thing, sure. But at the end of the day it's a lot less ugly than just insulting them for it. 

 

 

[AnotherDuck]

35 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Like I said: Take it to WG. Your condoning Insults do nothing to solve your problem, and the act of the insult only serves to give you a temporary, imaginary victory over the internet at someone else's expense, that is playing a class provided to them. And still WG does nothing, and still you keep at it, because it's how you cope with what is going on(Nothing is changing, they don't listen, CVs are OP) Look, everybody has coping mechanisms of some kind and I mean, no one can stop you of course, but what progress do you honestly feel is being made towards anything with this kind of behaviour, that you condone it?

I don't condone insults. That's not what I said. I said that people who play CVs deserve them. There's a difference.

 

I can give you a different comparison. Imagine if someone walks up to a biker gang and starts insulting them, and they punch him in the face for it. Now, if you think he deserves it, you argue that that's the same as condoning violence against people who insult you. Do you see the difference?

 

35 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

It's not exact, but it doesn't have to be.

You're saying that insulting someone for what they choose to do is comparable to insulting people for where they're born.

 

You don't have an exact comparison, because that would make your argument weaker. So instead you spread on the straws.

 

35 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Fighting games are different. It's not fair to compare spamming cheap attacks to playing a class of ship. One example why: No one picks up a fighting game and says ''I want to spam cheap attacks'' but in WoWs, you have a large number of people who picked up the game just because they like the idea of a WWII Naval Combat game, a sizeable number of which are also interested in helming a Carrier. I was one of those people. I actually just like enormous ships, I think they're beautiful, I want to play them and collect them.  And now look, I'm a BB main by a huge margin, with Cruiser and CV as my strongest class. Do these people deserve to be derided simply for partaking in what the game offers? Again, no, they don't. Again, this is neither their fault nor their problem, and any grievances you have should be directed towards WG. But not like this:

Oh, so when I compare things "it's not fair", but when you do it, it's okay? Do you realise how hypocritical that is?

 

But yes, it's completely fair. Sure, no one picks up a game and say they want to spam cheap attacks. They pick up a game and want to win. Then they find an effective tactic they like. So they do it. Just like CV players, despite how much they ruin the game for others. The comparison works, and it's completely fair.

 

It is their fault if they're the ones choosing it, because they're the ones making the game worse for others. You can try to justify your selfish behaviour any way you want, but at the end of the game, it's a lot less ugly if you just stop playing CVs.

[mrandrewclark85]

On 4/25/2020 at 7:20 PM, MementoMori_6030 said:

I guess in this case a bunch of reports was well deserved. AFK from start to finish.

I dunno bro, 2 weeks ago i played a game where our CV was afk the entire battle, and we still won.
Last night, i commanded 2 Clan battles where we used a BB instead of a CV for lulz. and we won both games. 
yeah i left the clan the same night, But that is a different story.

[Miragetank90]

52 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

I don't condone insults. That's not what I said. I said that people who play CVs deserve them. There's a difference.

 

Your comparison is fair. No, I don't condone violence against people who insult anyone, in fact I don't condone violence period.  

 

But, I don't accept your stance on resorting to insults in the first place. 

 

52 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

You're saying that insulting someone for what they choose to do is comparable to insulting people for where they're born.

 

You don't have an exact comparison, because that would make your argument weaker. So instead you spread on the straws.

 

No, I'm saying insulting a group of individuals, especially in a blanket fashion as in your case - directed towards CVs and WG, is wrong, especially since in that case and here, we have a problem which is not down to the individual but rather one on a grander scale. Therefore, insulting the individual(or saying they deserve it) is wrong, because they as individuals are not to be blamed for the state of the issue. The example I provided was meant to illustrate that. It's OK if it doesn't hold up to you, I already said you can disregard it if you don't like it. In the end, it still doesn't take away from the fact that both of these constitute poor, antisocial behaviour, and questionable logic. My argument is not any weaker for it. 

 

52 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Oh, so when I compare things "it's not fair", but when you do it, it's okay? Do you realise how hypocritical that is?

 

But yes, it's completely fair. Sure, no one picks up a game and say they want to spam cheap attacks. They pick up a game and want to win. Then they find an effective tactic they like. So they do it. Just like CV players, despite how much they ruin the game for others. The comparison works, and it's completely fair.

 

It is their fault if they're the ones choosing it, because they're the ones making the game worse for others. You can try to justify your selfish behaviour any way you want, but at the end of the game, it's a lot less ugly if you just stop playing CVs.

 

I didn't compare anything save for the virus analogy. The reason I said yours is not a fair comparison is because these are 2 completely different things. Why is it that effective tactics in CVs are griefing, when to you effective tactics in DDs, I daresay, are not? 

 

It's because you think CVs are broken and too strong, they ruin the game for others, as you've made abundantly clear. This is fine, your opinion is respected as far as I'm concerned, but your response is not. I am not arguing that your opinion is bad, I'm arguing that your reaction as a result is. Do you understand?

 

52 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

You can try to justify your selfish behaviour any way you want, but at the end of the game, it's a lot less ugly if you just stop playing CVs.

 

I would try to seek to justify my behaviour if I had an inkling that me playing CVs is me being selfish in any way - I don't. 

 

The one who is seeking to justify his/her negative behaviour here is you, by claiming that - because CVs are ruining the game, my insults and those of others are justified. 

 

''They deserve it.''

[AnotherDuck]

4 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

But, I don't accept your stance on resorting to insults in the first place.

 

The one who is seeking to justify his/her negative behaviour here is you, by claiming that - because CVs are ruining the game, my insults and those of others are justified. 

So you fail to understand and continue with the false premise that that's my stance. Read my post again and respond properly, or I'm done.

[Miragetank90]

3 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

So you fail to understand and continue with the false premise that that's my stance. Read my post again and respond properly, or I'm done.

 

Did you, or did you not say this:

 

On 4/25/2020 at 11:24 PM, AnotherDuck said:

If you play a CV, you deserve all the scorn and insults you get, because you bring down the enjoyment for others for your own selfishness. You have no one to blame but yourself.

 

Because your stance seems pretty clear to me. Is there something wrong with what I said in my last post? I tried to take the time to consider each point and respond properly. If I'm mistaken, please tell me.

 

[AnotherDuck]

18 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

Is there something wrong with what I said in my last post? I tried to take the time to consider each point and respond properly. If I'm mistaken, please tell me.

I said it then, and I'll say it for the last time: Condoning or justifying something, and thinking someone deserves something are not the same things. There are many cases where those are distinct and seemingly go against each other, such as here.

 

I've also said nothing about my own behaviour. All I said was about what others have said. You're the one applying it to me.

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

I said it then, and I'll say it for the last time: Condoning or justifying something, and thinking someone deserves something are not the same things. There are many cases where those are distinct and seemingly go against each other, such as here.

 

Yes, and both belief that someone deserves insults and justification for that belief exists in your first post. There, you are saying that they ''deserve all the scorn and insults'' and at the same time, justifying the action, ie. providing a reason why this is a good thing: ''because you bring down the enjoyment for others for your own selfishness.''

 

And yes, if you really want to be specific about the pedantry, I cannot say with certainty from your original post that you specifically condone such actions, strictly speaking. However, your justification for them is enough to call you out as doing something wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, AnotherDuck said:

I've also said nothing about my own behaviour. 

 

Are you sure about that?

 

4 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Oh, don't worry, I do that too. But I don't actually tend to insult players just for playing CV. I might insult WG, WG's employers, and their creations when they consistently don't listen to feedback, but they like to censor that kind of stuff, because they don't like owing up to what they do. Or fail to do, as is the case more often.

 

I mean, you say you don't ''actually tend to insult players just for playing CV'' but you basically tell me you might insult WG and their employers(I'm guessing you meant employees, since WG is the employer?)

 

And all I'm trying to tell you for some hours now is that Insults are not the best way forward, while you keep trying to justify that behaviour, even saying you might do it, even whilst saying you do not condone it. 

 

9 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

It's acceptable against people who deliberately grief and bring the joy of others down for the benefit of themselves alone.

 

4 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Because you're playing a CV. That's all. It doesn't matter if you try to be nice, you're ruining the game for a bunch of players every time you make that choice. Like it or not, that's what you're doing.

 

I've not said they're an acceptable form of social interchange. I've said that people who step on others to have fun deserve them.

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

I don't condone insults. That's not what I said. I said that people who play CVs deserve them. There's a difference.

 

So basically, your position is crystal clear, and I was not incorrect here:

 

2 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

The one who is seeking to justify his/her negative behaviour here is you, by claiming that - because CVs are ruining the game, my insults and those of others are justified. 

Note that I didn't use the word ''Condone'' there. 

 

You are justifying poor behaviour by the belief that CVs are griefers and ruining the game. 

No matter the issues people have with WoWs, insulting others is not good, my dear ducky, no matter how you slice it.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 13 Stunden, ItachiZero sagte:

I might think that he escaped alot of Reports for winning and that he might have been thrown out of the game

Happend me several times and now I am just not sure if I should  report ppl for being AFK or that ppl might have legit problems. 

Granted - such things happen, but 20 minutes were more than enough time for even me with my old PC (mech hard drive) to relog.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 5 Stunden, mrandrewclark85 sagte:

I dunno bro, 2 weeks ago i played a game where our CV was afk the entire battle, and we still won.
Last night, i commanded 2 Clan battles where we used a BB instead of a CV for lulz. and we won both games. 
yeah i left the clan the same night, But that is a different story.

Oh, we DID win this, even without air support. Quite embarrassing for the enemy CV, I guess... 

[AnotherDuck]

4 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

And yes, if you really want to be specific about the pedantry, I cannot say with certainty from your original post that you specifically condone such actions, strictly speaking. However, your justification for them is enough to call you out as doing something wrong. 

No. That's not what justification means. It means I understand and at most agree with their reasoning, but it doesn't mean I think it's right or that I'm defending them. They're doing something bad to people who're doing something bad. Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

 

4 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

I mean, you say you don't ''actually tend to insult players just for playing CV'' but you basically tell me you might insult WG and their employers(I'm guessing you meant employees, since WG is the employer?)

So what? I don't uphold myself to some false sense of morality, unlike you.

 

4 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

You are justifying poor behaviour by the belief that CVs are griefers and ruining the game. 

They are. They're doing something that a lot of players hate. That's not a belief; that's a fact. And if you do something people hate, expect to get hatred.

 

4 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

No matter the issues people have with WoWs, insulting others is not good, my dear ducky, no matter how you slice it.

No matter how many issues you have with that, I've never said insulting others is good, no matter how you slice it.

[Tatsfield]

Quote

:Condoning or justifying something, and thinking someone deserves something are not the same things.

 

"Condone:

accept (behaviour that is considered morally wrong or offensive).

deliberately ignore, not take into consideration, disregard, take no notice of, take no account of, accept, allow, make allowances for, let pass, turn a blind eye to, overlook, forget, wink at, blink at, connive at"   Seems they are the same thing and micro hair splitting on your part doesn't remove the the moral wrong and offence that your statements defend.  At best they seek to absolve insulting behaviour and worst they encourage it by claiming justification.    I also hate CVs and never play them but while they are part of WoW it is offensive to suggest that anyone who does is committing some anti social act that justifies personal insult, hurt and public wounding. Just saying that anyone deserves to be personally insulted, hurt or publicly wounded is approving acts by others that you claim you wouldn't do yourself on the grounds that they are unacceptable to you.  Understanding and agreeing with other peoples reasoning for antisocial behaviour is one thing, publicly declaring so is giving support and claiming that this is not what is being done is disingenuous.  The former is private, if distasteful, but the latter is a public act and is unacceptable if such antisocial behaviour is to be stopped.  I expect that you will dissect what I say and pick at it to somehow hope that it will distance you from things that you have actually said you disapprove while continuing to justify all your original statements.  I think that if you are in a hole, you might consider stopping digging yourself in any deeper.

[Miragetank90]

@AnotherDuck it seems we arrived at this point in part because you don't understand the definitions of the words ''Condone'' ''Justify''. 

 

To Justify is to: ''show or prove to be right or reasonable.''

When a person justifies an action, they show it to be right or reasonable, therefore defending it. You can agree, and not justify, but you did not do that. You went full ham and defended it by saying they deserve it, and the justification provided for your stance is that they ruin games and generally suck. So, you provided defense for it. Which means, dear ducky, that you justified it.  

 

But it seems that's lost to you, or maybe not, maybe instead you seek to twist definitions in the dogged hope of trying to weasel out of what you said, because you can't stomach the way this is going. 

Either way I really don't get it.  

 

I mean, I was even nice enough to overlook the fact that you did indeed condone insults here, even though you claimed not to.

 

17 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

It's acceptable against people who deliberately grief and bring the joy of others down for the benefit of themselves alone.

 

^^^^^ that is the definition of condoning, in your case referring to insults directed at whichever party. ''accept (behaviour that is considered morally wrong or offensive)''

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

So what? I don't uphold myself to some false sense of morality, unlike you.

 

Nobody's perfect Ducky. And since when is encouragement to refrain from insults a false sense of morality? 

It's more like sound advice. 

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

They are. They're doing something that a lot of players hate. That's not a belief; that's a fact. And if you do something people hate, expect to get hatred.

 

Sure, if you say so. But that's not what I am arguing. I'm arguing that insults do not help make your problem better, so you said nothing of relevance there. 

 

 

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Two wrongs doesn't make a right.

 

You know I could end my argument here, because you've told me exactly what I want to hear. 

 

Indeed, two wrongs don't make a right. Ergo, the act of insult to someone who has wronged you doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it better.

 

And now, we have come full circle, and you agree with me, dearest ducky. 

[Excavatus]

Hello, 

It's sad to see this topic turned into another general CV topic. 

Lets use the sticky one shall we? 

 

Thanks.