DDs where has the love gone?

[Itwastuesday]

10 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Well welcome to the WOWS Naval Simulator, now you can experience the true harshness of real war at see in around WW2 period in which the CV hundreds of miles away sends wave after wave of planes unti you are sunk and then radios in to CnC for more bombs, torps and plane fuel...

 

People were complaining WOWS is not Sim enough after all, so, well... 

 

All we need is land-based naval bombers, radar and fighters into the mix. And coastal artillery! 

 

Some days ago I was looking for some history on the Scharnhorst class. Turns out, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau somehow managed to sink a carrier? 

[Bratoev]

8 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

 

All we need is land-based naval bombers, radar and fighters into the mix. And coastal artillery! 

 

Some days ago I was looking for some history on the Scharnhorst class. Turns out, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau somehow managed to sink a carrier? 

Yeah on jumbo sized Ocean map and it was a stock tier 6 carrier. :)

[Yedwy]

11 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

 

All we need is land-based naval bombers, radar and fighters into the mix. And coastal artillery! 

 

Some days ago I was looking for some history on the Scharnhorst class. Turns out, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau somehow managed to sink a carrier? 

And yet we have a story of Bismarck that got kicked to the curb by rusty buckets of bolts not to mention Pearl or fate of Yamato... 

[Itwastuesday]

11 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

And yet we have a story of Bismarck that got kicked to the curb by rusty buckets of bolts not to mention Pearl or fate of Yamato... 

 

If you want a funny naval story, here's one https://www.hullwebs.co.uk/content/l-20c/disaster/dogger-bank/voyage-of-dammed.htm

[Yedwy]

I we read if before ^^

[Bratoev]

36 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

 

If you want a funny naval story, here's one https://www.hullwebs.co.uk/content/l-20c/disaster/dogger-bank/voyage-of-dammed.htm

In audio for those interested: 

 

[mrandrewclark85]

3 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Given the number of games that end up being landslides one way or another, that sounds to me a lot like you're going to end up doing 100% of all in the majority of battles.

Im playing Russian Cruisers, or German Battleships. So i think I will be fine thanks for asking.
https://wows-numbers.com/player/551321458,mrandrewclark85/

[Capra76]

10 minutes ago, mrandrewclark85 said:

Im playing Russian Cruisers, or German Battleships. So i think I will be fine thanks for asking.
https://wows-numbers.com/player/551321458,mrandrewclark85/

 

Great, but this thread isn't about either of those.

[mrandrewclark85]

6 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Great, but this thread isn't about either of those.

Yeah the point i was making, is the Meta is different now. so people have to either deal with the new meta, or learn some new skills.
This thread is also not about "muh your'e going to be swearing etc etc" But you still went there didn't you

[Just_Testing_That]

Or abaondon a class.

 

There have been a lot of meta changes - remember the old "Minekaze" eels? The current ones are harmless. Nerfed to death, few smokes with long cooldown, no AA, no offensive or defensive hydro - the old line in IJN tree has even "no serious guns". And we have the new CV meta.

 

As much as I have enjoyed Akizuki with at least some decent AA, the Kagero is crap. Torping BBs and Cruisers with these eels (vis approx 1.8 km) is possible, but pointless. Look Panasian DWTs, much better suited. Yes, IJN "Torp Line" could need some "love" with not needing the choice between reload booster OR smoke. "No smoke" is pretty deadly at this tier. Or nearly any tier below.

[Runegrem]

11 hours ago, Camperdown said:

I think the current meta is OK for DDs, unless you have a CV and 3 radars on the enemy team. 

That does not mean it is fun or fair, but it is doable.

The reason why T10 is the least fun is because of the Rusky balans radar cruisers. They can just sit at a cap and radar any DD to death. That and a competent CV will seriously ruin your day. It leads to very static gameplay. I don't like static gameplay.

The thing is that without the CVs and radars we wouldn't have the current meta.

 

 

8 hours ago, Just_Testing_That said:

An easy "pre-fix" to CVs would be, that a T8 CV requires the player to have at least two classes of T10 SHips with a minimum skill PROVEN, a T6 CV requires two T8 Classes with minimum SKILL. Which is in a perfect world "average Base-XP". As there "can be only one", his teammates deserve that random is not an enhanced training room for morons.

Two T10 ship types required to play a T8 one? That sounds all kinds of bad. Now, CVs are broken beyond all sense, but I'm categorically against the idea that you should have to play a ship type you don't like to be able to play the one you do like. Obviously not counting the low tier unlocking of ship types. Also, having skill based advancement sounds good, but I'm not sure it is.

 

 

6 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

All we need is land-based naval bombers, radar and fighters into the mix. And coastal artillery!

We did have coastal artillery. Remember Bastion mode? Everyone loved that.

[Just_Testing_That]

If a player does not understand a T8 Meta, why shall he be allowed to be the only T6 CV in his team likely facing T8 battles? Thats a huge disadvanatge. With two Ships in two Classes at T8 he shall know how the meta works and the ships he is going to see.... Same fpr T8 CV, who will see often t10 matches. That simple.

 

[Runegrem]

1 minute ago, Just_Testing_That said:

If a player does not understand a T8 Meta, why shall he be allowed to be the only T6 CV in his team likely facing T8 battles? Thats a huge disadvanatge. With two Ships in two Classes at T8 he shall know how the meta works and the ships he is going to see.... Same fpr T8 CV, who will see often t10 matches. That simple.

So, if you don't understand the T8 meta, why should you be allowed to play T6 DDs? Or BBs? The best way to learn how the meta works at a certain tier for a certain type is to play that type at that tier. Playing other types is inferior.

 

Of course, I'm of the opinion that a decent person shouldn't play CVs at all.

[Just_Testing_That]

Because there is ONE CV per Team in the matchmaker allowed and not 3-4.

[genosse]

DD is just a high stress class in general, like a fellow poster pointed out in a thread a few days back.

 

You have to know your ship very well, and compare it to all others of the same class, which you also have to know very well (visibility, dpm, radar, hydro, smoke, reload boost, torp range, torp speed, torp reload).

 

You have to know which ships have radar and where they all are at all times, same for enemy planes, and if they have HE or AP bombs, weak or strong rockets, level or dive bombers, and which attack patterns and aiming circles they use. You also have to get a feel for what makes a CV player tick, so best play them yourself, too.

 

Failure to do all of the above, in every battle, will get you wiped out or crippled 5 minutes into the game, because you pushed too quickly and too far into the wrong cap. There is little room for error.

 

On top of that, you have to spot, you have to cap, you have to stay hidden and don't forget to do some damage aswell.

 

Compare that to driving a BB, for example: Spawn left, then drive left and hope opportunities present themselves as you go on. Oversimplified, I know, but that's basically it.

 

Playing DD is great fun, but you have to be kind of an adrenaline junkie to play them all the time.

 

I also think that taking away too much of that stress will make the class samey and ultimately unappealing, so despite all of those issues, I wouldn't touch them too much, if at all.

 

Maybe work on CV spotting a bit, so it behaves like radar, but that's probably it as far as I am concerned.

 

And no RU stealth radar cruisers please, that would be nice. ;)

[Captain_Breeze]

I love playing dd.

 

Radars I can deal with.

 

CV's are ok if they don't attack me, but inevitably they will find me and ruin my game.

 

On the other hand, if you can keep alive in smoke etc, then you can waste the CV's time if he/she is determined to get you.

In one game the CV focused me for over 10 minutes before I died. So in that 10 minutes he was not spotting and targeting the rest of my team. I'm not saying that is fun but it is a positive for the team.

[Runegrem]

2 hours ago, Just_Testing_That said:

Because there is ONE CV per Team in the matchmaker allowed and not 3-4.

Not good enough reason. It doesn't answers the issues about how to best learn the meta of your chosen tier.

[Just_Testing_That]

Play it, thats OK. But NOT with the only ship of that class for the whole team and NOT learning the meta of that tier in the only ship of that class. There are too many dammn stupid CVs outside having no clue what they are doing. And that class is too important to be populated with players of that kind. If you are already used to that tier and you have seen these ships, you likely dont make every mistake by yourself.

 

And please - if you are too stupid to play CV (lets say winrate of that ship below 45%), you dont "level up".

[Butterdoll]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:56 PM, Verblonde said:

My feeling is that the radar is manageable, but the current CVs are not - due to the difference in time that you're spotted for (much longer with planes), at least for most DDs.

 

Of course, you have to play differently with lots of radar about, but it's nothing too unreasonable, at least not at the moment.

 

Naturally, I reserve the right to change my opinion when the Russian cruisers turn up (although my guess is that I'll just change ship choices with a particular emphasis on long-range torps)...

Or i'm missing something or the radar on the new and upcoming RU cruisers are a waste of consumable space.

they will be useless.

Personally I find hard to justify a 20 seconds radar over a 90 seconds/120 seconds hydro and in some cases even def AA.

Radar in my new RU ships will be the first thing to go. Especially if the new ships is a good platform for RPF + Hydro

In general, if DD players are used to 20/40 seconds radar and if they find those manageable as you say. Then you don't have to me afraid of 10 seconds of uselessness, 5 seconds for the rest of the fleet.

[Verblonde]

47 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

In general, if DD players are used to 20/40 seconds radar and if they find those manageable as you say. Then you don't have to me afraid of 10 seconds of uselessness, 5 seconds for the rest of the fleet.

You're absolutely right; the main reason I view the inevitable RU cruiser plague with mild trepidation (although my current guess is that I'll do no worse than I usually do, but I could be wrong) is that it won't be only those ships.

 

Were I a cruiser driver, I might think in terms of using the short duration radar to find the DDs in the first place, and then the longer duration radars on other ships to nail them down once you know if your radar is being baited etc.

 

Of course, that requires people to cooperate, so it probably won't be an issue in normal randoms, but a competent division might be able to do some serious damage that way...? Plus, as you say, it still might be worth taking hydro instead anyway.

[Butterdoll]

3 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

You're absolutely right; the main reason I view the inevitable RU cruiser plague with mild trepidation (although my current guess is that I'll do no worse than I usually do, but I could be wrong) is that it won't be only those ships.

 

Were I a cruiser driver, I might think in terms of using the short duration radar to find the DDs in the first place, and then the longer duration radars on other ships to nail them down once you know if your radar is being baited etc.

 

Of course, that requires people to cooperate, so it probably won't be an issue in normal randoms, but a competent division might be able to do some serious damage that way...? Plus, as you say, it still might be worth taking hydro instead anyway.

Yes, relying in cooperation in random could be a bit of a stretch.

Sometimes I wonder (by players behaviour) if players can make out differences between builds or if the ship it's a stock ship or not.

If you spot a Baltimore, could you make out his build? (that it could take some time)

Before you could differentiate a stock chapayev from a radar chapayev, now I don't know (i'm not a dd player)

But Dimitri Donskoy it's easy. If you spot him at 14 kms away that means DM doesn't have concealment, so you have 2 kms to play with him because his radar has a 12 km range , you could bait him, he could respond with radar and you never know that you successful just bait him.

 

About that.

I wonder if the division could be better off with  RPF  alone without the waste of a consumable plus a  conventional radar ship plus something else.

 

 

[Verblonde]

49 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

Sometimes I wonder (by players behaviour) if players can make out differences between builds or if the ship it's a stock ship or not.

If you spot a Baltimore, could you make out his build? (that it could take some time)

My usual approach is to assume the worst, until I get solid evidence to the contrary (e.g. the silly bugger Shima I met yesterday, I think, in my Halland, who I was outspotting - when I got to visual range I saw no cammo!); in randoms, it's also not a bad bet that the consumable build ill be whatever the defaults are...