DDs where has the love gone?

[Verblonde]

29 minutes ago, Kriger3n said:

They are, but they sit in A1 the whole game risking nothing but their endless supply of planes. They dont have to play ship tactics like the rest. just bomb or torp from a safe distance without ever risking anything. It has nothing to do with ships.

Whilst I hope it's obvious from my other posts that I think there is a lot wrong with CV-ship interactions at the moment, I do think you're being slightly unfair.

 

To be effective as a CV (as opposed to the muppets you regularly see propping up the end-game results table), you do need to at least vaguely put yourself in harms way, to avoid excessive flight times; there is a *lot* of skill involved in being good with CVs too - things like avoiding flak, slingshots etc., not to mention the more cerebral stuff like positioning, proper target selection and so on. It's a different skill-set to regular ships, but it's still a skill set none the less (which I haven't really acquired yet).

That's not to say that CVs aren't a nuisance, but *typical* (i.e. not the forum unicums et al.) CV players usually 'only' influence the game through excess spotting, rather than by doing actual damage, because they haven't gained the necessary skills.

[Kriger3n]

4 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Whilst I hope it's obvious from my other posts that I think there is a lot wrong with CV-ship interactions at the moment, I do think you're being slightly unfair.

 

To be effective as a CV (as opposed to the muppets you regularly see propping up the end-game results table), you do need to at least vaguely put yourself in harms way, to avoid excessive flight times; there is a *lot* of skill involved in being good with CVs too - things like avoiding flak, slingshots etc., not to mention the more cerebral stuff like positioning, proper target selection and so on. It's a different skill-set to regular ships, but it's still a skill set none the less (which I haven't really acquired yet).

That's not to say that CVs aren't a nuisance, but *typical* (i.e. not the forum unicums et al.) CV players usually 'only' influence the game through excess spotting, rather than by doing actual damage, because they haven't gained the necessary skills.

I can agree that i i'm biased and prob a little unfair. But i honestly think that CV's in their current state are a big problem. not a nuisance as you call it. 

[Verblonde]

3 minutes ago, Kriger3n said:

not a nuisance as you call it.

I was understating for (only slightly) comic effect.

That said, I do find how much of a problem a CV is does vary drastically depending on the skill level of the CV driver in question. A skilled driver will basically ruin your entire game, whereas more typical players (especially at the moment) can sometimes be - at least - mitigated, although it often does call for ditching old favourite ships (IJN torp boats being particularly hard-hit)....

[Kriger3n]

7 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I was understating for (only slightly) comic effect.

That said, I do find how much of a problem a CV is does vary drastically depending on the skill level of the CV driver in question. A skilled driver will basically ruin your entire game, whereas more typical players (especially at the moment) can sometimes be - at least - mitigated, although it often does call for ditching old favourite ships (IJN torp boats being particularly hard-hit)....

Yeah, but it should not be like this. Only advice i've been given is: "Have you tried the EU DD line?" Why? Is there only one viable DD line you can play in case you get a CV match? Why did they nerfed the AA on ships too? Seems to me like they nerfed all counters and buffed CV to be able to control whole matches. Only fun for CV players.

[AkulaTSR]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:19 PM, bigdoguk said:

It's hard to play dd when a cv can take half your health in one run,this happened to me yesterday in my shima.

Had a battle a while ago , tier 8 , i was in the Chapayev with full 32k HP and about 4 or 5 mins into the battle , the CV bombed me and took of over 22k  , then torped me for the remaining 10k , all the while having the AA consumable activated , and having another ship nearby to help with AA fire.

 

Its utter nonsense ! 
 

Whats the point in AA if they have unlimited planes and they can just fly through your AA and take off your entire health pool within 1 minute .

[Verblonde]

Just now, Kriger3n said:

Is there only one viable DD line you can play in case you get a CV match?

I would give a qualified 'no' to that question, but the Ikeas are certainly the best (Halland has been glorious in Clans, albeit against low league opposition); US is pretty decent (including US designs in the PA tree, although they miss DefAA), and Groz is a monster, for example.

 

I have no idea if the plan-DD balance can actually be fixed, or if WG even care about this, but there are some useful fixes that could be applied - the first - IMO, of course - is removing the 'detected' warning for planes; that alone would make life less hideous for a (semi-competent) sneakier DD....

[Bratoev]

I've suggested it before, make the flak burst sector allocation controllable. This will allow skill to help against CV. Not that it will stop the whining on the forum, nothing ever will. I mean we have a thread complaining about too many DDs right now.

[Kriger3n]

19 minutes ago, Bratoev said:

I've suggested it before, make the flak burst sector allocation controllable. This will allow skill to help against CV. Not that it will stop the whining on the forum, nothing ever will. I mean we have a thread complaining about too many DDs right now.

So all this whining is just butthurt players that need to learn how to play the game then? None of them actually have a point in that CV's gameplay are bad?

[valrond]

Nah, DDs are fine. I just had a game in my Shima this morning. No CV, but in my side I had 2 radars (moskva and buffalo) and the hydro of the friesland.

Now, I play aggresively with my shima, using the 8 km torps and using islands, so if I get caught by radar, I can survive.

 

[Runegrem]

2 hours ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Of course you're correct...

Thank you for confirming my statement. But I'm not sure what the score screen of a single game has to do with how things are in general. Unless it was just you making a joke. But, eh, not my type of humour at the moment.

[mrandrewclark85]

They have just changed the Meta and players will have to adapt, until they change the Meta again, at which point players will have to adapt to the new Meta again. 
In the current Meta. You are better off as a DD hiding it out for a bit.

In the current Meta, Cruisers should be getting into hard cover near a cap, and popping radar every time someone tries to take the cap. at which point half the team will nail that guy
Adding in CVs, DDs should ideally be staying much closer to the fleet, and letting the cruisers to the early game heavy lifting. 
Once the enemy cruisers have used their radars, or have been dealt with, this is the time for the DDs to get involved. 
There is also nothing to stop the DDs from hiding other ships from the enemy aircraft with smoke during the early phase of the battle. which would go a long way toward protecting the fleet, and making it harder for the enemy fleet to work out where your team is going.
Once people have really gotten used to this being the way to play, which it is right now. They will change it. and there will be a new way to play.
Wows seems to go through phases, so no one group of players can dominate the game with a particular skill set for too long.


 

[xe_N_on]

Having a CV in a game with 5 radar cruisers is very good for any DD-player. Because if your CV is not brain dead he will spot all those nasty radar lamers for you.

 

Information is ammunition.

 

PS: Even better, your CV might actually bomb the radar lamers out of their island camp spots.

 

PPS: Of course you could have bad luck and the enemy CV is e.g. El2azer. But ok, that life. It's like getting struck by a lightning, getting trapped by quick sand, find your self in the path of an tornado or getting wiped out by an meteor. It happens. But not very often.

[AnotherDuck]

8 hours ago, Verblonde said:

To be effective as a CV (as opposed to the muppets you regularly see propping up the end-game results table), you do need to at least vaguely put yourself in harms way, to avoid excessive flight times; there is a *lot* of skill involved in being good with CVs too - things like avoiding flak, slingshots etc., not to mention the more cerebral stuff like positioning, proper target selection and so on.

Oh, noes, they have to use a fraction of the skill of absolutely everyone else to get shorter flight times. The horror. How will they deal? What about the newbies?

 

Little to no risk, all of the reward. At the cost of everyone else's enjoyment.

 

6 hours ago, mrandrewclark85 said:

They have just changed the Meta and players will have to adapt, until they change the Meta again, at which point players will have to adapt to the new Meta again.

And the current meta favours camping, lemmingtraining, and overall stale strategies. Less dynamic gameplay, less using the entire map, less trying to get a good angle from a flank, less going in deep with a DD and trying surprise attacks. Not being able to adapt isn't the problem. Not being willing to adapt to a more boring gameplay is the problem. And the solution is not to adapt to it.

[Verblonde]

3 hours ago, AnotherDuck said:

Oh, noes, they have to use a fraction of the skill of absolutely everyone else to get shorter flight times.

As I'm sure you comprehended fully, most of the skill with CVs involves target selection, flak dodging and stuff like that. Positioning isn't entirely idiot-proof either; if a CV gets closer and cocks up his positioning, some rotten bugger will torp/otherwise explode him.

 

If CVs were as easy to master as many of the folk on here suggest, we'd all be El2azar et al. if we were interested - the fact that we clearly aren't is indicative that there is a lot of skill involved in CVs; it's just a different skill-set to that needed for the 'standard' classes.

 

All of which doesn't mean I've forgiven WG for buggering up my favourite class (or elements of it, at least) i.e. DDs.

[Runegrem]

33 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

If CVs were as easy to master as many of the folk on here suggest, we'd all be El2azar et al. if we were interested - the fact that we clearly aren't is indicative that there is a lot of skill involved in CVs; it's just a different skill-set to that needed for the 'standard' classes.

I don't think the problem is that CVs are too easy to master, it's that it's too easy to be good enough to ruin the other players' day. And that being bad at CVs usually means you're ineffective, whereas with other classes playing badly usually means you're sunk (unless you're a border licker).

[Camperdown]

13 hours ago, mrandrewclark85 said:

They have just changed the Meta and players will have to adapt, until they change the Meta again, at which point players will have to adapt to the new Meta again. 
In the current Meta. You are better off as a DD hiding it out for a bit.

In the current Meta, Cruisers should be getting into hard cover near a cap, and popping radar every time someone tries to take the cap. at which point half the team will nail that guy
Adding in CVs, DDs should ideally be staying much closer to the fleet, and letting the cruisers to the early game heavy lifting. 
Once the enemy cruisers have used their radars, or have been dealt with, this is the time for the DDs to get involved. 
There is also nothing to stop the DDs from hiding other ships from the enemy aircraft with smoke during the early phase of the battle. which would go a long way toward protecting the fleet, and making it harder for the enemy fleet to work out where your team is going.
Once people have really gotten used to this being the way to play, which it is right now. They will change it. and there will be a new way to play.
Wows seems to go through phases, so no one group of players can dominate the game with a particular skill set for too long.


 

I think the current meta is OK for DDs, unless you have a CV and 3 radars on the enemy team. 

That does not mean it is fun or fair, but it is doable.

The reason why T10 is the least fun is because of the Rusky balans radar cruisers. They can just sit at a cap and radar any DD to death. That and a competent CV will seriously ruin your day. It leads to very static gameplay. I don't like static gameplay.

[Verikoira]

man..... learn to play...  if you see radar ships.... you adjust your play style... ..

"wondering when i self learn that"

 

meta % mm is just fine

 

[thestaggy]

6 hours ago, Verblonde said:

As I'm sure you comprehended fully, most of the skill with CVs involves target selection, flak dodging and stuff like that. Positioning isn't entirely idiot-proof either; if a CV gets closer and cocks up his positioning, some rotten bugger will torp/otherwise explode him.

 

If CVs were as easy to master as many of the folk on here suggest, we'd all be El2azar et al. if we were interested - the fact that we clearly aren't is indicative that there is a lot of skill involved in CVs; it's just a different skill-set to that needed for the 'standard' classes.

 

All of which doesn't mean I've forgiven WG for buggering up my favourite class (or elements of it, at least) i.e. DDs.

 

CVs are basically artillery from WoT. They amplify player impact across all skill levels because as a mechanic they are broken and do not fit in with the rest of the game. They play to their own rules.

 

A good player will ruin your day in artillery. A bad player can still contribute in artillery. Put the same bad player in a light tank and he dies first on a suicide rush or just plays passively in some bush and does nothing. Put him in a medium tank or a heavy tank and he probably sits at the back and snipes, taking his gun and armour out of the game.

 

A bad player in a DD dies in the first minute; pops smoke at the first sight of a red and blinds the team or otherwise does nothing to assist the team. If that same bad player is in a BB they'll be on the border or behind an island. If they're in a cruiser they're at the edges of the map again or blundering broadside waiting to be devastated. A bad player in a CV can still ruin a DDs day and that is all they need to do. As long as he harasses DDs he's made a valuable contribution to the game. A DD that is constantly being rocketed and harassed cannot play to the objectives.

[Just_Testing_That]

One "solution" to this could be an "engine smoke", decreasing its visibility from the air, but lets say only usable "engine up to half speed". Compromize could be, that this type of smoke causes enhanced visibility from the sea so that DDs are not steaming whole game "half speed" to hide from planes.

 

Or another option: remove spotting of targets with ballistic accuracy from the air completely(!) - planes can only spot for Minimap. For ballistic accuracy, a target MUST be spotted by a proper range finder. So CVs show you on Minimap where the reds are, but to fire at them you need a ship in proper position. And to reward this, "spotting damage" should be changed to reward spotters/players instantly. Give them 10% of any damage, a shell/torp scores when fired "with help of a spotter". 

 

The second method would still keep DDs harrassed from planes, but at least not the whole red team is blasting them too....

 

An easy "pre-fix" to CVs would be, that a T8 CV requires the player to have at least two classes of T10 SHips with a minimum skill PROVEN, a T6 CV requires two T8 Classes with minimum SKILL. Which is in a perfect world "average Base-XP". As there "can be only one", his teammates deserve that random is not an enhanced training room for morons. 

 

 

 

 

[Yedwy]

16 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

PS: Even better, your CV might actually bomb the radar lamers out of their island camp spots.

Yep, not much of a CV player but when I see a Desmo or sillmilar parked behind the island all alone uhh i get all warm and fuzzy esp if I am in something sporting AP bombs... 

[Itwastuesday]

7 hours ago, Runegrem said:

I don't think the problem is that CVs are too easy to master, it's that it's too easy to be good enough to ruin the other players' day. And that being bad at CVs usually means you're ineffective, whereas with other classes playing badly usually means you're sunk (unless you're a border licker).

 

Whether they would take no skill or require a doctorate in brain surgery, it matters little to their target who can't fight back actively.

[Capra76]

17 hours ago, mrandrewclark85 said:

DDs should ideally be staying much closer to the fleet, and letting the cruisers to the early game heavy lifting. 
Once the enemy cruisers have used their radars, or have been dealt with, this is the time for the DDs to get involved. 

 

Given the number of games that end up being landslides one way or another, that sounds to me a lot like you're going to end up doing 100% of all in the majority of battles.

[Bratoev]

1 hour ago, thestaggy said:

CVs are basically artillery from WoT. They amplify player impact across all skill levels because as a mechanic they are broken and do not fit in with the rest of the game. They play to their own rules.

No they are not. Artilery will never stop firing regardless of skill level. A bad CV gets deplaned and is a drifting hulk beyond the maybe one attack run he can do. If his recovery allows for it. 

 

That is not accounting for the fact that you can react to a CV attack. Not so much with arty.

[MudMonkey]

I guess the love went like this

 

 

[Yedwy]

20 hours ago, AkulaTSR said:

Whats the point in AA if they have unlimited planes and they can just fly through your AA and take off your entire health pool within 1 minute .

Well welcome to the WOWS Naval Simulator, now you can experience the true harshness of real war at see in around WW2 period in which the CV hundreds of miles away sends wave after wave of planes unti you are sunk and then radios in to CnC for more bombs, torps and plane fuel...

 

People were complaining WOWS is not Sim enough after all, so, well...