German CA, the Line WG forgot existed.

[fumtu]

5 minutes ago, Captn_Crap said:

About Ägir I agree. The secondaires were ridiculous. They should give the ships better stats overall + the icebreaker and leave the secondary range (but not the accuracy). She would be a competitive ship while also allowing a meme build.

 

Competitive with those main guns? What you are proposing would just work for meme build as whole purpose of those additional armour would be to last longer on the ranges where its secondaries could work. 

[Captn_Crap]

1 minute ago, fumtu said:

 

Competitive with those main guns? What you are proposing would just work for meme build as whole purpose of those additional armour would be to last longer on the ranger where its secondaries could work. 

 Obviously the guns would need to get buffed. That's why I said she needs better stats overall.

[HaachamaShipping]

8 minutes ago, Captn_Crap said:

I disagree. She would have been a tankier than NC with worse guns but longer secondaries. Strong but not OP.

 

About Ägir I agree. The secondaires were ridiculous. They should give the ships better stats overall + the icebreaker and leave the secondary range (but not the accuracy). She would be a competitive ship while also allowing a meme build.

The repair party alone is already bonkers on Massachusetts. Even with the much reduced sigma. Keep in mind, 1.7 sigma is just 0.1 below the majority of T8 BBs and sigma alone is not everything, especially when your ship is built around going in and doing some high impact play, while NC cannot snipe for crap, because the shells need like 20 seconds to fly to long range and basically only hit people who didn't find the WASD keys for half a minute.

 

On Ägir, you cannot give it a competitive strength without meme build that doesn't become oppressive with meme build or where meme building is at such a high price that noone does it. Otherwise, as said, go meme build Stalingrad to 10 km or the Yoshino to 9 km. It's not that it's not a good set of secondaries, it's that you are left with a cruiser that just is not going to get much out of it and that should not, because if secondary brawls were a viable meta for a ship, it'd be basically just a braindead faceroll. A ship needs to have drawbacks that prevent it from using its secondaries to autowin.

[fumtu]

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

 Obvisously the guns would need to get buffed. That's why I said she needs better stats overall.

 

So good guns, good armour, good secondaries. I think we are going into area where ships are becoming to strong. To me seems more like a lidl BB on the cruiser slot.

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 minute ago, fumtu said:

 

So good guns, good armour, good secondaries. I think we are going into area where ships are becoming to strong. To me seems more like a lidl BB on the cruiser slot.

So like most super cruisers then.

 

I find it difficult to think about the balance of these ships are they effectively a cross between a battleship and cruiser but count as a cruiser for matchmaking.

[Captn_Crap]

13 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

So good guns, good armour, good secondaries. I think we are going into area where ships are becoming to strong. To me seems more like a lidl BB on the cruiser slot.

Good guns but inferior to Alaska, better armor and longer secondaries (which wouldn't really be that usefull). Than we have a ship that is worse at long range and has less utility but the option to go brawl with torps and secondaries late game. Meanwhile Alaska isn't bad etiher at closer range with those guns, low citadel and radar.

[Captn_Crap]

15 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

The repair party alone is already bonkers on Massachusetts. Even with the much reduced sigma. Keep in mind, 1.7 sigma is just 0.1 below the majority of T8 BBs and sigma alone is not everything, especially when your ship is built around going in and doing some high impact play, while NC cannot snipe for crap, because the shells need like 20 seconds to fly to long range and basically only hit people who didn't find the WASD keys for half a minute.

 

On Ägir, you cannot give it a competitive strength without meme build that doesn't become oppressive with meme build or where meme building is at such a high price that noone does it. Otherwise, as said, go meme build Stalingrad to 10 km or the Yoshino to 9 km. It's not that it's not a good set of secondaries, it's that you are left with a cruiser that just is not going to get much out of it and that should not, because if secondary brawls were a viable meta for a ship, it'd be basically just a braindead faceroll. A ship needs to have drawbacks that prevent it from using its secondaries to autowin.

I did meme build Stalin already and it's not working well because of the low range. So it's not a good set of secondaries because of that reason.

 

I said already that I want secondary builds to be inferior to other builds because I agree that just going in and killing everthing is a bad idea. But secondary range alone wouldn't lead to that. Especially because any cruiser trying to yolo with secondaires will just die very quickly.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Captn_Crap said:

I did meme build Stalin already and it's not working well because of the low range. So it's not a good set of secondaries because of that reason.

 

I said already that I want secondary builds to be inferior to other builds because I agree that just going in and killing everthing is a bad idea. But secondary range alone wouldn't lead to that. Escecially because any cruiser trying to yolo with secondaires with just die very quickly.

Drive 1.5 km closer. Frankly, range is overrated. 

[Captn_Crap]

Just now, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Drive 1.5 km closer. Frankly, range is overrated. 

Range is the most important metric for secondaries. Pensacola has one of the most accurate secondaries in the game but even with the armor buff they are useless because the range is too low. 

[CptBarney]

Yay. Time to buff saint louis. ‘W’

[Miscommunication_dept]

27 minutes ago, Captn_Crap said:

Good guns but inferior to Alaska, better armor and longer secondaries (which wouldn't really be that usefull). Than we have a ship that is worse at long range and has less utility but the option to go brawl with torps and secondaries late game. Menawhile Alaska isn't bad etiher at closer range either with those guns, low citadel and radar.

Due to poor overmatch, the Alaska’s pen angles are a huge advantage. With the Japanese they gave very good HE with the Kronstadt it received very high pen.

What to do with the Germans? They already have terrible HE so it cannot do the HE spam.

 

Secondaries were at least interesting, I’m just not sure what they could give the Agir to make it special.

[Captn_Crap]

1 minute ago, gopher31 said:

Due to poor overmatch, the Alaska’s pen angles are a huge advantage. With the Japanese they gave very good HE with the Kronstadt it received very high pen.

What to do with the Germans? They already have terrible HE so it cannot do the HE spam.

 

Secondaries were at least interesting, I’m just not sure what they could give the Agir to make it special.

I mean it would have been interesting to see how it worked out with those secondaries. But if they were too strong it would have been difficult to nerf them because of the premium status. That's why I would prefer a slow approach on a silver line and see if it's gamebreaking or not. You can nerf those anytime.

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, gopher31 said:

Due to poor overmatch, the Alaska’s pen angles are a huge advantage. With the Japanese they gave very good HE with the Kronstadt it received very high pen.

What to do with the Germans? They already have terrible HE so it cannot do the HE spam.

 

Secondaries were at least interesting, I’m just not sure what they could give the Agir to make it special.

Besides radar, very very long range aa (so 9km sort of thing with 1,5k con dps on one or two sections), 32mm bow and maybe aft. Thats all i can think of with giving her more unique stuff.

 

obviously not in one package but still.

[fumtu]

19 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

 32mm bow and maybe aft

 

Yup, just make a BB. Anyone remembers how stupid was SG version with 32mm bow when they test it? 

[CptBarney]

15 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Yup, just make a BB. Anyone remembers how stupid was SG version with 32mm bow when they test it? 

Almost like it was suggestion or something.

 

Also with guns as bad as those, i don't see why you would care anyways. The armour models in this game aren't exactly realistic just basic for the arcadey mechanics it has for easier gameplay.

[fumtu]

9 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Almost like it was suggestion or something.

 

?

 

Quote

Also with guns as bad as those, i don't see why you would care anyways. The armour models in this game aren't exactly realistic just basic for the arcadey mechanics it has for easier gameplay.

 

Because it is a cruiser, not a BB. Because there are still some rules like not a single cruiser have bow armour over 27mm, not counting icebreaker here. You basically want for cruiser to go out and brawls with a BB with 16 inch guns and that BB could not overmatch your bow? Sure that sound very balanced to BBs. I can understand that you are asking for icebreaker but for 32mm bow and aft, that is nonsense.  Agir is a cruiser, just like all other SCs we have in game, so 25 to 27mm bow is max you should ask. Everything else, like deck or icebreaker could be talked about. 

[Peffers]

reading this people won't be happy until it has phasers and quantum torps.  Paper ships should always be inferior to same tier real ships.

[TohtoriP]

On 4/24/2020 at 3:25 PM, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

If you can work with Hipper, you can work with Roon. Hipper is basically the worst ship in the line. Roon gives some ok dpm and a repair party. Turret layout doesn't matter too much, you are fighting at range for most of the game anyway and you can kite well. When going in, just don't make weird changes in directionb that necessitate your turrets to turn around.

Umm no. Roon has awkward turret placement to do pushes like with Hipper. Roon has weaker torpedo armament to do pushes like Hipper. Sure DPM is better and you got repair party but you get matched against all those new tier 9 supercruisers. Really I have no idea how you win with Roon. The basic idea of being able to push to get those caps even at some point is hampered by the fact that 66% of your already pretty crappy firepower is at the rear forcing you to get into a position to kite away immediately when you encounter the enemy. I really don´t see this kind of gameplay working for me at least.

 

All of you giving advice have you played the Roon this patch and of you have what is your win rates with it?

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, TohtoriP said:

Umm no. Roon has awkward turret placement to do pushes like with Hipper. Roon has weaker torpedo armament to do pushes like Hipper.

Close range aggression with torp rush is a pretty risky maneuver anyway and nothing to base a tactic around. For when you have to, Roon still has good torp angles and 4 torps, which is better than anything other than Donskoi at T9. If you have to push, Hipper Roon and Hindenburg all have at least half their armament in the rear, so if you aren't up against ships that just screw you with improved AP pen angles, you'd often try be angled but firing all guns anyway, angling in inbetween shots to not get hit as hard.

6 minutes ago, TohtoriP said:

Sure DPM is better and you got repair party but you get matched against all those new tier 9 supercruisers.

Kronshtadt, Alaska and Azuma all are not "new" really at this point. But overall, you deal with them the same way and T9 cruiser deals with them except Neptune (which just dies). Use dpm advantage. Supercruisers cannot overmatch your ship, so you just stay angled and kite them to death (where Roon excels), or you torp rush (as none have a torp armament of their own). That would however get you kited and might end in a less favourable trade than the other way round. But as said, such is true for any cruiser. Against Stalingrad, Alaska, Puerto Rico, Ägir and Siegfried, Roon at least brings the HE pen to pen their decks, which helps a lot, while others may struggle with that.

9 minutes ago, TohtoriP said:

The basic idea of being able to push to get those caps even at some point is hampered by the fact that 66% of your already pretty crappy firepower is at the rear forcing you to get into a position to kite away immediately when you encounter the enemy. I really don´t see this kind of gameplay working for me at least.

I mean, if you look at any of the other T9 non-radar cruisers, is any of them going to do well if you don't kite but just push? Push caps in Ibuki, Saint Louis or Brindisi? All of them basically play the long range HE/SAP annoyance and try to bully away other ships, before they can even try to cap without severe risk of death. Roon is no different there.