German CA, the Line WG forgot existed.

[Captn_Crap]

13 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

There might have been a chance if they would have gone through with the Ägir secondary approach... which they didnt. So i guess secondary cruisers is a failed concept for WG by now.

yeah, no fun allowed :(

[HaachamaShipping]

Imo, if you want to buff them without improving their ammunition, give the Hipper and Roon 30 mm midsection and Hindenburg 32 mm. What's the point of being the "tanky cruiser", when a Mogami has almost as much 27 mm plating as the Hipper and you get overmatched by most ships anyway?

1 minute ago, Captn_Crap said:

yeah, no fun allowed :(

Fun is subjective and having a ship be crap because it is balanced around a meme is not fun for everyone.

[Captn_Crap]

8 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

 

Fun is subjective.

That's why we should have at least 1 line where fun builds like this are possible. Those who don't like secondary fun builds can choose any cruiser line right now. Those who like secondary fun builds don't have any option. And a secondary buff like this wouldn't require any nerf to german cruisers IMO because secondary builds are far inferior to competitive builds anyway. Stalin for example has 6,5 km base range and nobody is complaining that its secondaries are OP.

[Skipper_1974]

Does anyone see a split in the German Cruiser line coming anytime soon.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 minutes ago, Captn_Crap said:

That's why we should have at least 1 line where fun builds like this are possible. Those who don't like secondary fun builds can choose any cruiser line right now. Those who like secondary fun builds don't have any option. And a secondary buff like this wouldn't require any nerf to german cruisers IMO because secondary builds are far inferior to competitive builds anyway. Stalin for example has 6,5 km base range and nobody is complaining that its secondaries are OP.

Then go build that for secondaries. Don't decide that German line has to be the garbage meme line. Or build the Hindenburg. It has the German 105s, all you lack is range, but at least it synergises with torps. The issue is, the moment secondaries become as good as they were on Ägir, you have to nerf a competitive aspect, otherwise the ship becomes just too good, because it cannot have some close-quarters terminators in addition to being decent in competitive areas.

 

And in Ägir's case, if the guns hadn't been trash, the most you'd give up was accuracy module and fire prevention/Basics of Survivability on a supercruiser in exchange for getting a very solid secondary armament with good range and good accuracy.

[DFens_666]

9 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

And in Ägir's case, if the guns hadn't been trash, the most you'd give up was accuracy module and fire prevention/Basics of Survivability on a supercruiser in exchange for getting a very solid secondary armament with good range and good accuracy.

 

Well, they could have tweaked the secondary dispersion to be somewhere between german Secondaries and GZ secondaries. But since WG only knows on/off (basicly) they couldnt figure that one out... Its like, they can change 20 different stats, but they always do the wrong ones

[Captn_Crap]

20 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Then go build that for secondaries. Don't decide that German line has to be the garbage meme line. Or build the Hindenburg. It has the German 105s, all you lack is range, but at least it synergises with torps. The issue is, the moment secondaries become as good as they were on Ägir, you have to nerf a competitive aspect, otherwise the ship becomes just too good, because it cannot have some close-quarters terminators in addition to being decent in competitive areas.

 

And in Ägir's case, if the guns hadn't been trash, the most you'd give up was accuracy module and fire prevention/Basics of Survivability on a supercruiser in exchange for getting a very solid secondary armament with good range and good accuracy.

I do that already on several cruisers. But they all have in common that they are lacking range. An no, I don't decide anything. I just gave a suggestion for a cruiser line with longer ranged secondaries. That can be any cruiser line but the german cruisers have the best conditions for that because  of their HE pen. The reason why Ägir secondaries were so good was not because of the range but the insane accuracy. Right now Ägir is just a garbage Alaska. People who like secondaries Cruisers have the same problem as people who like british Cls and want a premium. There are just no options while we get one long range cruiser line after another.

 

Stalin has the highest secondary range (and improved accuracy) of any cruiser and it is obviously not lacking in competitive areas.

[Miscommunication_dept]

Agir's secondaries were never as accurate as those on the Massachusetts. 

Imagine that accuracy combined with 32mm pen!

 

[Captn_Crap]

Just now, gopher31 said:

Agir's secondaries were never as accurate as those on the Massachusetts. 

Imagine that accuracy combined with 32mm pen!

 

Another example of a ship where WG managed to give a ship good secondaries while also providing good guns and tankiness. But we can't have that for cruisers.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Well, they could have tweaked the secondary dispersion to be somewhere between german Secondaries and GZ secondaries. But since WG only knows on/off (basicly) they couldnt figure that one out... Its like, they can change 20 different stats, but they always do the wrong ones

The point is, as long as secondaries remain viable without significant overinvestment, the rest of the ship needs to be much worse. You can tweak around as much as you want, in the end it comes down to that. The entire concept of "secondary cruiser" basically necessitates a poor main battery to not be insanely strong (as compromising survivability gets you killed in the "fun zone" of the brawling range)

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

I do that already on several cruisers. But they all have in common that they are lacking range. An no, I don't decide anything. I just gave a suggestion for a cruiser line with longer ranged secondaries. That can be any cruiser line but the german cruisers have the best conditions for that because  of their HE pen. The reason why Ägir secondaries were so good was not because of the range but the insane accuracy. Right now Ägir is just a garbage Alaska. People who like secondaries Cruisers have the same problem as people who like british Cls and want a premium. There are just no options while we get one long range cruiser line after another.

Stalingrad with secondaries gets almost 10 km, Hindenburg and Yoshino 9 km. That's actually not bad considering 11.3 km is what you get on most USN secondary builds, T8 German BBs and the Ägir pre secondary-nerf. Are these ships useful with secondary build? Lolno, but not because range, but because it's fundamentally garbage to invest in secondaries. Otherwise, feel free to go and build a secondary Yoshino or Hindenburg. They have 26-30 mm base pen on the secondary guns and some actual dpm too. The ships when angled aren't exactly terrible at close range and have torps.

 

And Ägir being a garbage Alaska is not because it lacks secondaries, but because its main battery is basically just trash and WG have to think about what competitive concept to give the ship. 

[HaachamaShipping]

3 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Agir's secondaries were never as accurate as those on the Massachusetts. 

Imagine that accuracy combined with 32mm pen!

 

No, Ägir secondaries were as accurate as GZ, which was silly.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

Another example of a ship where WG managed to give a ship good secondaries while also providing good guns and tankiness. But we can't have that for cruisers.

1.7 sigma, short range and almost overperforming for T8 BB standards. Massachusetts shows well why secondary balancing should be cautious if you give a ship good secondaries without nerfing other aspects into the ground.

[Captn_Crap]

2 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

No, Ägir secondaries were as accurate as GZ, which was silly.

There is a huge difference between 10 km or 9 km range on T10 and 11,3 on T8. Of course it should be the worse choice to invest into secondaries but at least give them enough range to shoot at least. My Point is to just create a normal ship with decent guns while also providing enough secondary range. So everyone has the choice to either go for the worse fun build or the proper competitive build.

[Captn_Crap]

8 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

1.7 sigma, short range and almost overperforming for T8 BB standards. Massachusetts shows well why secondary balancing should be cautious if you give a ship good secondaries without nerfing other aspects into the ground.

I agree that Massachussets was a bit overtuned. After the IFHE rework she is in a better place though. But also there the problem wasn't the range of the secondaries but the accuracy.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

There is a huge difference between 10 km or 9 km range on T10 and 11,3 on T8. Of course it should be the worse choice to invest into secondaries but at least give them enough range to shoot at least. My Point is to just create a normal ship with decent guns while also providing enough secondary range. So everyone has the choice to either go for the worse fun build or the proper competitive build.

There isn't really a huge difference, especially when you consider that we are talking cruisers here, ships with generally better concealment, tankiness and maneuverability and which will not try to be in prolonged stand-offs with BBs, because typically they will lose.

 

And well, there you have your choice. If you opt not to do it... your issue. But don't ask for people to cater to the braindead idea of "secondary cruiser" as if it was a thing that has to exist (unlike British CLs that do exist and have a sound concept behind them). Because what next? Where is my CV with SAP rockets/bombs? Where is my 20 km torp BB? Or a long range radar BB?

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

I agree that Massachussets was a bit overtuned. After the IFHE rework she is in a better place though. But also there the problem wasn't the range of the secondaries but the accuracy.

Massachusetts wasn't the accuracy, but the fact that she had good secondaries AND a decent main battery AND a fast CD repair party that allowed her to tank stupid amounts of damage. The ship basically was built around its one job of brawling others and the lack in tankiness from having no fire prevention build was countered by just repairing back faster. And running out of heals late game did not matter if you won by then. Just like Russian damage control is overall good, not bad.

 

If Ägir was not to end up like that, she'd need her main battery reduced to garbage or her tankiness. Latter on a secondary ship is critical, so typically you end up with the former. and that reduced Ägir to an absolutely stupid meme, because the main guns were basically the greatest trash imaginable, so beyond the secondary range the ship is utter garbage and within the range you pick a target and watch it die to the most braindead armament in the game with 32 mm base pen.

[Captn_Crap]

Ofc that is a huge difference. Battles on T8 are on much closer range and at the same time a T8 still has more than 2 km more range than the T10 ships. I don't get why you think that cruisers are tankier than BBs. BBs are obviously tankier and have higher numbers of secondaries which makes it much easier for them to actually use them.

 

And I told you already that I am using secondary builds for cruisers (even though there are absolut worthless). And the idea of a secondary cruiser (I'm gonna ignore the "braindead" remark) is not really that special. I'm only asking for the same range as BBs on the same tier. And we are not lacking weird concepts anyway when looking at GZ secondaries or 220 mm that pen like 400mm guns.

 

About british Cls and a sound concept. Looks like WG thinks differently otherwise we would have a premium already after more than 3 years.

[Captn_Crap]

17 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Massachusetts wasn't the accuracy, but the fact that she had good secondaries AND a decent main battery AND a fast CD repair party that allowed her to tank stupid amounts of damage. The ship basically was built around its one job of brawling others and the lack in tankiness from having no fire prevention build was countered by just repairing back faster. And running out of heals late game did not matter if you won by then. Just like Russian damage control is overall good, not bad.

 

If Ägir was not to end up like that, she'd need her main battery reduced to garbage or her tankiness. Latter on a secondary ship is critical, so typically you end up with the former. and that reduced Ägir to an absolutely stupid meme, because the main guns were basically the greatest trash imaginable, so beyond the secondary range the ship is utter garbage and within the range you pick a target and watch it die to the most braindead armament in the game with 32 mm base pen.

But the secondaries on Massachusetts  were only so good because of the accuracy of the secondaries and the range. Without the accuracy she would have been a perfectly fine ship.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

12 minutes ago, Captn_Crap said:

But the secondaries on Massachusetts  were only so good because of the accuracy of the secondaries and the range. Without the accuracy she would have been a perfectly fine ship.

 

lolno. It would still be a very strong ship. The secondary accuracy is the gimmick that is most famous, but not the most powerful. When the ship was released, most of Bismarck's secondaries couldn't pen crap and the Massachusetts even with normal accuracy would have been better at secondaries.

[Captn_Crap]

Just now, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

lolno. It would still be a very strong ship. The secondary accuracy is the gimmick that is most famous, but not the most powerful. When the ship was released, most of Bismarck's secondaries couldn't pen crap and the Massachusetts even with normal accuracy would have been better at secondaries.

Strong ship yes but not overpowered. She would have traded worse guns for better tankiness and longer ranged secondaries compared to NC. And when she was released Bismarck was in a really bad spot already before the gun and secondary buff.

[Miscommunication_dept]

What about the poor Alabama?

worse accuracy then the NC

 worst heal of all three

short range and weak secondaries.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Captn_Crap said:

Strong ship yes but not overpowered. She would have traded worse guns for better tankiness and longer ranged secondaries compared to NC. And when she was released Bismarck was in a really bad spot already before the gun and secondary buff.

Strong ship, not overpowered, when Massachusetts basically took the top spot among T8 BBs. Massachusetts + its B variant actually managed to beat any BB at the tier in performance, including Vladivostok and Lenin. With more battles played than the Vladivostok too, so it isn't even an exclusivity argument that one would often hear.

 

And Bismarck was in a bad spot secondary-wise after Massa arrived, because Massa arrived. Any issues that got fixed since are mostly to fix that Bismarck would otherwise be a worse deal than Massachusetts. Which basically means Massachusetts was a load of powercreep. We don't really need more of that.

[Captn_Crap]

Just now, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Strong ship, not overpowered, when Massachusetts basically took the top spot among T8 BBs. Massachusetts + its B variant actually managed to beat any BB at the tier in performance, including Vladivostok and Lenin. With more battles played than the Vladivostok too, so it isn't even an exclusivity argument that one would often hear.

 

And Bismarck was in a bad spot secondary-wise after Massa arrived, because Massa arrived. Any issues that got fixed since are mostly to fix that Bismarck would otherwise be a worse deal than Massachusetts. Which basically means Massachusetts was a load of powercreep. We don't really need more of that.

And I said numerous times that she would have been fine if you took away her secondary accuracy and just leave the range. The same thing I'm asking for one cruiser.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Captn_Crap said:

And I said numerous times that she would have been fine if you took away her secondary accuracy and just leave the range. The same thing I'm asking for one cruiser.

No, because the secondary accuracy was never the issue that made her stupidly good. It's having workable accuracy on a ship that actually has a main battery and survivability that are not terrible. The secondaries on Massachusetts never were oppressive. Having the secondaries together with a ship that overmatches every cruiser at its tier and heals back damage every 40s is what made it so insane.

 

The Ägir similarly would need to be the kind of trash it was in the last test to justify the secondaries. But then it's still basically a braindead meme that has no right to exist.

[Captn_Crap]

I disagree. She would have been tankier than NC with worse guns but longer secondaries. Strong but not OP.

 

About Ägir I agree. The secondaires were ridiculous. They should give the ships better stats overall + the icebreaker and leave the secondary range (but not the accuracy). She would be a competitive ship while also allowing a meme build.