Playing DDs in the current Meta

[GraySlayer]

24 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

No one is arguing they are unplayable, what we are arguing is that they require a lot more skill and knowledge than everyone else. Playing DD feels like a job, while everything else is relaxed. This is the problem.

 I like my Job. It's not for everyone and not everyone can even do it but I like it..

[ForlornSailor]

31 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

No one is arguing they are unplayable

 

Actually please go back and read: there are quite a few who say EXACTLY that. And if you disagree with them, they will launch personal attack or just mark your post boring. Just because you dont share their biased "capping with DDs is impossible" etc stuff. Not saying you said that, but others definatly. So dont defend them or water down those exaggurations, thanks.

 

33 minutes ago, LazyVegetable said:

what we are arguing is that they require a lot more skill and knowledge than everyone else. Playing DD feels like a job, while everything else is relaxed.

 

It might also because of personal style? Maybe for you its harder to play a DD compared to another class. Im not going to argue about CVs and BBs, although to do well in them you need to have skill aswell. There we are, talking about the definition of whats "easy to play". Sure, a Conq sitting back at 20 + km slinging HE is easy. But he is not an asset for any team but a liablilty and it will show in his stats. And you could technically play a DD like that aswell - with the same result (only that the Conq will actually be able to farm damage while only an Asashio or Shimakaze could as a DD). But playing a cruiser in the front line is the same sort of "work". Radar Mino f.e.? Also, a CV might be labled as "easy to play" because you will almost never be sunk. Which IS a problem imo - a multiplayer game should never have such huge discrepancies between classes. Imagine in an MMORPG only the tank would always die and not the DD or the healer. people would be upset about it and call it a failed concept. Which is exactly what we have here. Anyway, people that chose to play a CV just because its easy to survive are often so bad, it physically hurts. So the "playing" in itself isnt that easy after all.

 

And talking about knowledge: Cruiser and BB player need way more knowledge about armor models and guns then DD players. Ive seen arguments about what a DD players needs to play attention to, at the start of the game and during the game. But there is a huge list of things like that for BBs aswell. Like when playing KGV:

- How many BBs are around? What kind of BBs? Their calibre? Can they overmatch my bow? What cruisers do we have? How easy do they pen me? Can I overmatch them? How many DDs?  Is the cruiser infront of me running hydro? Do I have a DD between me and where do I think is the enemy DD? So that im save from torps? Where are the biggest threats for me going on the map? Then there is the constant screening for broadsides and target check: DD > radar cruiser > cruiser > BB. Will the cruiser, that just went dark, be spotted again in a sec? Should I hold my shot or take a not so good oppotunity? When can I push? Is my team reliable enough?

 

If you want to be good in Cruisers and BBs, you basically need to know all armor models and penetration values. As a DD you dint care that much. Example? Couple of days ago I went almost full broadside out against a Hindenburg in my Stalingrad at 12 km. Why? I knew he doesnt have the pen to citadel Stalingrad at 12 km. And yes, I baited him to shoot in my belt and using all guns. 0 damage and he showed me his broadside. If this player would have known his own ship better, he would not have done it. do you think he was relaxed?

 

 

[Butterdoll]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:35 PM, Odo_Toothless said:

You know I am doing not worse DMG/kills scores then before rework. Problem is, DD potential to carry matches decreased a lot. So much that I feel like third class ship in DD. Ex. yesterday i played a lot Gearing, while 2/3 of matches was with CV. I never had such bad WR. Why ? Becouse my effort is often meaningless in the world of planes, which dominate battlefield. I can't move here or there to do my job, becouse if I move away too far from my ships and CV spot me, I will be dead sooner or later. Now CV is a king and DD is just a poor bastard. So why play ex. Gearing, which is kicked like child from every direction, when i can take Smolensk/Worcester, harass everything around, while looking for another personal top score ?

 

 

ps. got a ban for a chat for not being nice, becouse frustration. Sorry for that

 

Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to. (So adapt and don't play :-P)

Far from me to tell you how you must play dds.

 

But something has to change, this can't go on like this, one or two dds per side per game and half of them have no smoke, there are games with no dds at all and those games usually suck.

games with 4 or 5 dds per side are rare this days.

Perhaps dds can't do their job as they did back in the day, but they have to keep doing it, maybe not as independent like they used to be, early caps are high risk thing for them and for the rest of the fleet.

Why a dd rushes into a cap at the start of the game? doesn't he know there are rocket planes  searching for him?

Why doesn't he wait? let the fleet deal with them, then advance.

I think  the good  dd player will be redefined. Providing vision for the fleet while the rest of the fleet has to provide cover.

 

And cvs aren't Kings, we put them there. The Bulk of cv players enjoy an undeserved impunity and they don't even know how they got there.

Nowadays there is a void, from what I read, almost nobody specs AA ships for AA. Cvs are just bullies at this point

 

OK, the AA it's far from what it used to be and it's very dependent of the skill level of the cv player but AA it's still useful and worth specking for , it's efficiency is no more measured in how many planes were shot down but if they forced the planes to do a panic drop e.g. 

AA it's more of a tactic advantage 

We may no longer ear after 10 minutes.

- I'm out of planes.

 

But if people start to spec for AA again, the majority of cvs would "die" by a "death of a thousand cuts".

 

Good AA ships are still left alone by the cv, and whoever are close to them, they can still take an entire wing out of the skies. (when the cv is a potato) and by that I mean 6, 8 planes at once.

 

Back to dds

 

Way back in the day, at t4 there was a game in Big Race map where a Clemson in our team went back and forward between our front lines and the reds, he spotted and spread chaos between the reds, he attacked ships already engaged with us, then slipped back to us and did that, again again and again the all game, he never capped, he was always with us

I posted a topic where everyone downvoted that story saying that he was a crappy DD player with a shity gameplay and so on.

He was amazing.

Perhaps that's the way to go now 

 

 

@Hugh_Ruka

 

Spotting wins games, one thing is certain, defeats Cleary don't pay any bills.

 

 

p.s. Forget being the point of the spear and focus being the eyes of the fleet.

[Bear__Necessities]

DD's don't help themselves. At. All. They still leave their AA on which makes them super easy to spot and hit. They still do the predictable rush to the cap. They still blame everyone in chat rather than look at their own faults. My sympathy for fellow DD players is dead. As frankly they just don't want to help themselves. 

[lafeel]

40 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

DD's don't help themselves. At. All. They still leave their AA on which makes them super easy to spot and hit. They still do the predictable rush to the cap. They still blame everyone in chat rather than look at their own faults. My sympathy for fellow DD players is dead. As frankly they just don't want to help themselves. 

Sadly I have to agree, and I have been guilty of this myself. Also, driving into caps where you have limited room to maneuver/islands blocking potential help does you no favours while we're at it.

[ThePurpleSmurf]

2 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

DD's don't help themselves. At. All. They still leave their AA on which makes them super easy to spot and hit. They still do the predictable rush to the cap. They still blame everyone in chat rather than look at their own faults. My sympathy for fellow DD players is dead. As frankly they just don't want to help themselves. 

It's not that CVs literally scan square by square for DDs. They know how many there are, thy know where they spawn by mirroring the own DD position. It does not matter at all if you turn on or off the AA, the CV will find you no matter what and from this moment on there is no escape or hiding. Simply for the fact that CVs can send planes after planes at your last position at a speed even the fastest of DDs can not keep up with. The time it takes the CV to send a new wave of planes is barely enough to pass half a square on the minimap for a DD. So there is no escape.

And of course there are people who say 'blabla, but the cv wasted all his time on chasing you so he could not do anything else to your team'. Which is total bullcrap, because what it does is, it ruins my gaming fun entirely, it prevents me from playing the objectives -which is my job as DD- which gives the enemy team time to cap and generate points every few seconds, while i try to survive the CV harassment. The constant spotting prevents me from spotting for my team, it prevents me from spotting enemy torps as early warning, it prevents me from using my weapons (guns and torps) to be somewhat effective. Simply said, a 100% skilless CV is capable to completely neutralize an entire ship class with very important roles for the own team, just by moving around the planes on the map and spot me, be it on purpose or by accident.

As a DD i have to invest A LOT of skill points (which make the need for a 19pt commander mandatory, which is a grind in itself) to be stealthy, have effective weapons and my ability is already limited to the extreme by all the radar, hydro, now 90knt torps to dodge, on top of that comes a potato CV that can keep me spotted forever if he wish and there is nothing i can do about it other than run to the back rank, abandon my team, abandon the objectives, abandon MY fun to play the ship class entirely.

Yes of course can i have great games as DD, but they are extremely rare and nowhere so much fun than it used to be. There is pretty much no knifefights over caps against other DDs anymore. It's just constantly radars, hydros, planes to avoid and the fun factor, fighting other DDs, is pretty much dead.

 

I'm a DD main and yes i adapted. I play Halland now. Pretty much exclusively, because this is the only DD that can protect itself against planes. The 15km fast reloading torps mean i can stay out of radar range which sit behind every island often unspotted and is used randomly. IF an enemy DD should stray into 'my' half of the map i have enough firepower to fight this DD. Other than that the only way to play the game as DD nowadays is to give a crap about the team, about the caps and do your own thing by avoiding most of the danger that is out there. Is this fun? Is this how WG wanted us to play DD? For sure not, but they shoved this cancer down our throat, unable to balance this crap that everyone can have fun and not just one ship class in the game, no matter how much they suck. It's really sad if you watch streams of superunicums (because i suck with my 57% solo wr as a comparison, so i resort to way better player with video proof if needed) getting destroyed in CV games just to find out in the end result screen that the player who destroyed them was a 42% potato, just playing the braindead class just as WG intended. If you see something like this tell me again it's the DD player who sucks for not turning off his AA or if there is maybe something very wrong in the current state of the game. If not even the best of the best players can protect themself against literally potato level player in a CV …

[Yedwy]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:20 PM, AlexeiCrimson said:

BBs will be no worse off, honestly. They already get screwed by a DD torp spread up close. Subs are not that much different. The main issue is the shotgun sub playstyle meaning a sub can just sail up to you whilst submerged and drop 4-6 unavoidable torps. Hopefully WG nerf the hell out of this playstyle.

Doubtful this was exactly the same thing we were doing in that Halloween OP they first came in, its a fundamental flaw in the interaction mechanic and a reason why the class can never be balanced properly (same as its case with CVs albeit for a different reason) and WG is just insisting in bringing another broken class in the game...

 

This game is dead, it might not show yet but its dead, the amount of RNG is going up by the day, we might as well play gambling simulator 2021 as that will be the extent of it - you press Battle and the end result is completely arbitrary

[Hugh_Ruka]

23 hours ago, Taliesn said:

 

Sorry but you are saying other classes do not shoot the ships you are spotting as a DD and at the same time claiming your selfless CV would cover you with his fighters? Yeah, no.

 

A pre-rework CV would crap on your DD in the time it took him to cross torp you and send you to the bottom.

If pre-rework CV would be able to kill me on his own that he'd be one of the top 5% of CV players ... or RNG favored him on a bomb drop ... it was quite easy to avoid a cross drop if you payed any attention ...

 

And please learn to read before you post. I said the CV needs to cover for me to spot the enemy DD if I myself cannot as he is in a much better position to do so ... I never wrote anything about fighter cover for ME ... fighters are all but useless as a defensive measure ...

[Ouzo11]

17 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Yea. soooo unplayable. Literally me in 2020:

 

 

But I forgot: you dont like facts, only exaggerations.

 

[Odo_Toothless]

9 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Why a dd rushes into a cap at the start of the game? doesn't he know there are rocket planes  searching for him?

Why doesn't he wait? let the fleet deal with them, then advance.

I think  the good  dd player will be redefined. Providing vision for the fleet while the rest of the fleet has to provide cover.

If You want winning a lot in random game, You must cap as fast it's reasonably possible. Waiting for "team" to do something about it, often leads into situation that enemy has 3 caps and we - zero. Game lost at the start. So You must take risk anyway.

 

Yesterday I played Smaland, which has impressive AA and heal, so she don't care about planes too much. Went always straight into cap.  And here comes results. Not so much DMG overall, but WR :-). So this is not true that DD are unplayable. Just some of them like Gearing are not suited to such meta and obsolete.

 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Odo_Toothless said:

If You want winning a lot in random game, You must cap as fast it's reasonably possible. Waiting for "team" to do something about it, often leads into situation that enemy has 3 caps and we - zero. Game lost at the start. So You must take risk anyway.

 

I disagree with that.

Having a cap at the start doesnt change much. Ive seen so many throws by the team, which had more caps because "must win harder". Its like, green caps give them some feeling of safety, if you go there, nothing will happen or i dunno why they suddenly rush in.

But unless there is no CV and no Radar Cruiser, i dont attempt going for the cap right away. Or atleast know, that the Radar Cruiser is not on my cap. Trying to get a cap, without being able to get it and trade your health for it, is a really bad trade.

[MadBadDave]

1 hour ago, Odo_Toothless said:

hy a dd rushes into a cap at the start of the game? doesn't he know there are rocket planes  searching for him?

If reds occupy and control all caps the game can be lost within the first 5 mins, we all see games where you totally pound reds and only 1 or 2 remain while you have half your fleet left and yet as the clock hits zero you lose.   Sadly a lot (because of WG’s dire noob introductory program), don’t understand the importance of the mini map, that thing normally bottom right, which you can very easily enlarge and that you need to capture cap points.  I swear at least 50% of players still think it’s only “kill all ships” in unlimited time.

 

I never rush into a cap, it’s better to spot, kill, delay from capping, kill and then cap, rather than rush in, die and return to port, all within 1 minute, it’s very much like sex, fast and frantic over in seconds or a bit of forplay, get the job done and then the ecstasy afterwards (that you kicked someone’s arse and won, that is).

[Odo_Toothless]

50 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

I disagree with that.

I wote: as fast it's reasonably possible  Playing solo if I wait for enemy radar cruisers killed, i can wait often all the game. So I touch a cap for sec, make them use radar and flee. Then i return and take a cap. Most the time in random it's working tactics. You can do that especially in DD with heal and speed boost. I will never play like that in any competitive mode, becouse this is too much of risk.

 

You are right that some games are lost even when having cap advantage, but i see much more won on points. So i decided to cap even having some losses, becouse i don't want to rely on random team. After that i see more game won, then lost.

 

btw. i play mostly solo. Of course with pack of 3 team mates, there is no need for such drastic tactic, becouse game could be won more by cooperation and skill.

[Yedwy]

39 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

But unless there is no CV and no Radar Cruiser, i dont attempt going for the cap right away. Or atleast know, that the Radar Cruiser is not on my cap. Trying to get a cap, without being able to get it and trade your health for it, is a really bad trade.

and even then its no guarantee, yesterday took out my Goliath, we had only one Donkey on the other side of the map that was spoted early so enemy Ogni followed by Lenin went in the cap (opposite side from Donkey) running striaght into a Jutland and myself with rather predictable results of one getting guned dow in 20s ans other crosstorped to death right after...

[Butterdoll]

6 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

I wote: as fast it's reasonably possible  Playing solo if I wait for enemy radar cruisers killed, i can wait often all the game. So I touch a cap for sec, make them use radar and flee. Then i return and take a cap. Most the time in random it's working tactics. You can do that especially in DD with heal and speed boost. I will never play like that in any competitive mode, becouse this is too much of risk.

 

You are right that some games i lost even when having cap advantage, but a lot of such are lost. So i decided to cap even having some losses, becouse i dan't want to rely on team. After that i see more game won, then lost.

Plenty of times I see the dd rushing in and be focus down by cv at 6 km to 8 km from me.

if that dd would wait a bit before rushing in... it's not too much time.

 

 

[Odo_Toothless]

19 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

Plenty of times I see the dd rushing in and be focus down by cv at 6 km to 8 km from me.

if that dd would wait a bit before rushing in... it's not too much time.

It depends from cap. With some You have a chance to get it with minimal risk, but only when You rush them on full speed. With others You can wait, but a few seconds, to have more information. But if You will be too cautions, then game could be lost on points. And as DD my role is to get as many caps as possible, even trading for this most of my health. Then i am not interested, then half of my random team is sailing nowhere or just camping on 10 line, becouse points are ticking anyway. Any other style of playing in random ex. farming DMG, etc is leading to nowhere.

 

Having this knowledge i have 60% WR in DD, while playing solo. Of course for weak players such aggressive play is a trap. Yes, sometimes i die too, but there is not too many of such games.

[Dutchy_2019]

10 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Far from me to tell you how you must play dds.

 

But something has to change, this can't go on like this, one or two dds per side per game and half of them have no smoke, there are games with no dds at all and those games usually suck. Games with 4 or 5 dds per side are rare this days.

 

And everybody but WG and a few CV fan boys have told OVER AND OVER again what reasons for that are, and why people quit playing DD And this includes numerous extremely good players, including CV players (among the best of the world).

 

- CV overpoweredness in its rocket planes. Especially when the DD is NOT higher tier then the DD. The CV ALWAYS gets the first strike off. And unless he is a complete tool, that will do significant damage.

- The extreme amount of spotting the CV provides. If on your flank on your team, there WILL be no spotting bonusses. If the enemy CV, if he spots you, and the enemy is competent, that means you are immediately shelled by numerous enemy ships.

- Just dodge, is what CV fan boys scream. But usually 'just dodge' does not only mean dodging the incoming air strike as a DD, but usually also incoming fire from various directions. 

 

A favourite response is also for telling DD players to smoke up. Which is, of course a BS argument to saying that it is an opportunity for counterplay:

 

- The DD sees NOTHING. Which means his spotting role is gone, and he can be rushed.

- If there is a radar ship nearby, smoke is useless.

- Smoke screens are torpedo magnets.

- As soon as you leave smoke, you still get spotted (dropped fighter plane or original strike force, or new strike force).

- Your smoke is on cool down, so of NO use for multiple minutes in most DD's. Also, for many DD's, especially the lower tiers, the number of smokes is very limited. Which means you have eliminated one of the trump cards a DD has to play. And the DD could do NOTHING, and got NOTHING in return.

 

 

Compare that to the extreme lengths to which WG has gone to make CV's nearly invulnerable.

- Limited damage by fires and floodings.

- Massive mirage aircraft factories.

- Extremely high speed and completely unlimited range of aircraft. Worse, if they recall aircraft, they can already launch a new strike before the old flight has returned. Which artificially boosts their strike range.

- A CV - in GZ - that has more firepower than most CL's.

- Not sure if it still exists, but is it does, the sling shot exploit is near criminal. Note, BTW when one of the boards CV fan boys complained about an AA exploit whose damaging factor is infinitesimal compared to what slingshot provides, WG immidiately jumped in to get that exploit removed from the game.

 

 

WG has PUBLICALLY come out and said that they do not care about DD's. Not surprising, because the market for premium CV's and BB's is much more profitable for them.

 

10 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

Perhaps dds can't do their job as they did back in the day, but they have to keep doing it, maybe not as independent like they used to be, early caps are high risk thing for them and for the rest of the fleet.

Why a dd rushes into a cap at the start of the game? doesn't he know there are rocket planes  searching for him?

Why doesn't he wait? let the fleet deal with them, then advance.

I think  the good  dd player will be redefined. Providing vision for the fleet while the rest of the fleet has to provide cover.

 

- If the CV is on your flank, it already provides all the spotting.

- Which means blob forming with the best of them, because that is the only way to get rid of the pest that are rocket aircraft. 

- Still does not eliminate the spotting element for the CV. Which means that the rest of the enemy team can still focus on you as a DD,

 

This only encourages extremely passive gameplay.

 

10 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

And cvs aren't Kings, we put them there. The Bulk of cv players enjoy an undeserved impunity and they don't even know how they got there.

Nowadays there is a void, from what I read, almost nobody specs AA ships for AA. Cvs are just bullies at this point

 

- O wait, they are NOT kings? Is that why they rank near the top in just about every category other than capping? As @El2aZeR has numerous times shown here on these forums. 

- What does near invulnerability to damage, and them not risking anything seriously make them NOT king? ESPECIALLY at the lower tiers.

- If they are not kings, why does every cowardly seal clubber jump into them in the lower tiers?

- Ever notice how common it is for CV players to whine about being uptiered? And, BTW, being uptiered normally still means you have same tier ships to target.

 

10 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

OK, the AA it's far from what it used to be and it's very dependent of the skill level of the cv player but AA it's still useful and worth specking for , it's efficiency is no more measured in how many planes were shot down but if they forced the planes to do a panic drop e.g. 

AA it's more of a tactic advantage 

We may no longer ear after 10 minutes.

- I'm out of planes.

 

But if people start to spec for AA again, the majority of cvs would "die" by a "death of a thousand cuts".

Good AA ships are still left alone by the cv, and whoever are close to them, they can still take an entire wing out of the skies. (when the cv is a potato) and by that I mean 6, 8 planes at once.

 

Because by and large AA spec is completely useless. It still does not stop first strike (unless blobbed), and it comes at the expense of FAR MORE valuable consumables; often even in CV games, but definitely when there is no CV around. O yeah, and whatever one or two extra aircraft you shoot down are regenerated immediately. And the effect is only felt by the CV player untill the game is already decided. Unless, of course, the CV is an extreme potato, even for CV standards.

 

- AA vs Aiming systems? Aiming systems wins just about every day. Especially since the base Aa of many ships is absolute garbage; and absolute garbage + 5% is still absolute garbage in the world of normal thinking individuals.

- Aux Arm Mod vs GFC? For many ships with limited range, the choise is easy. 

 

And this already goes for games WITH a CV. And specking AA leavers you at a far greater disadvantage if there is no CV. Also, all this AA spec is immediately and completel thrown away if - after the first strike which is near guaranteed to come through, or a HE spammer targeting you - the majority of your AA is taken out. Odds are, that in such a case, your AA 5 minutes in the game is less effective than a JB with all its main guns destroyed permanently. And in the mean time you have sacrificed a lot that could be useful in the rest of the game (and is not so easily damaged).

 

And IMHO it would actually be a very good thing if a CV player CAN run out out of aircraft in 10 minutes. Because that means that absolute idiots will actually get punished, and feel the consequences of being absolute tools. Also, being an absolute tool in ANY other class tends to get you killed within 5 minutes, so that means that absolute tool CV players actually have 5 more minutes to ruin the game experience for everyone in the game. 

 

If I play like an absolute tool in BB, Cruiser or DD I get sent into port nearly immediately. In the mean time an absolute tool in a CV can still do significant damage, while in the process by sheer accident also spot enemy ships for the rest of his team (thus making them potential targets for the enemy fleet), is guaranteed spotting ribbons, and - when looking at damage numbers - still think he did good. Bad gameplay in a CV simply DOES NOT GET PUNISHED, at least not where the CV player is concerned. The other players on his team, and probably a large part of the enemey team actually do receive all the punishment.

 

Name me the good AA ships in the game? Ships who - by specking AA - actually gain more than they lose in giving up the other perks. There is a reason why AA ships have completely disappeared from the game. And taking out an entire wing, is only possible EARLY in the game, by ships of equal or higher tier.

 

 

10 hours ago, Butterdoll said:

 

 

Back to dds

 

Way back in the day, at t4 there was a game in Big Race map where a Clemson in our team went back and forward between our front lines and the reds, he spotted and spread chaos between the reds, he attacked ships already engaged with us, then slipped back to us and did that, again again and again the all game, he never capped, he was always with us

I posted a topic where everyone downvoted that story saying that he was a crappy DD player with a shity gameplay and so on.

He was amazing.

Perhaps that's the way to go now 

 

 

@Hugh_Ruka

 

Spotting wins games, one thing is certain, defeats Cleary don't pay any bills.

 

 

p.s. Forget being the point of the spear and focus being the eyes of the fleet.

 

Yeah, he played it smartly then.... It also meant that he had a functioning team (or a functioning wing of his team) on his side. If you do not, the only thing you can do is spot, while praying you did not get seen by the enemy CV. And also, I wonder what else he did. Because there are quite a few people who say someone has played a crappy game without a good reason.

[Butterdoll]

@Odo_Toothless

 

The problem isn't you but 

7 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

Of course for weak players such aggressive play is most often a trap

is often the problem

Having dds in the late game it's an advantage.

early caps don't mean that much, there are games where the team is losing or wining and then it's the opposite.

there are maps where the dd can advance having proper support (mountain range map e.g.)

[Odo_Toothless]

29 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

early caps don't mean that much, there are games where the team is losing or wining and then it's the opposite.

there are maps where the dd can advance having proper support (mountain range map e.g.)

Of course there are such games. But overall cap advantage and defending those You have, will give You more won then lost games. And I have seen so many games won thanks for this early cap advantage by a few points.

 

I agree with you that if DD player is weak, then is much better to have him at least spotting with minimal risk. But is's impossible becouse bad players or rush and die, or camp behind his team, doing just nothing. This second scenario is preferable then, so team is not loosing points from their death, but even such is not likely, becouse they die in some suicide ride anyway, but later.

 

btw. i tried tactics - be caution, farm damage and cap when not much risk. Result - bad WR, becouse even having very high amount of DMG done, my team did any effort to contest caps or made it too late. Then i changed my mind - no more waiting, only instant capping with some evacuation plan, then defend such cap to the last if enemy wants to recap. Result - series of won games, even having less ships then enemy and my DD on last legs after how i traded my HP for caps.

[Dutchy_2019]

6 minutes ago, Butterdoll said:

@Odo_Toothless

 

The problem isn't you but 

is often the problem

Having dds in the late game it's an advantage.

early caps don't mean that much, there are games where the team is losing or wining and then it's the opposite.

there are maps where the dd can advance having proper support (mountain range map e.g.)

 

But if the CV wants the DD dead, it does not matter. He will NEVER make it to the late game in the first place (taken out by the carrier, or being spotted by the carrier and taken out by the enemy team).

[creamgravy]

25 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

But if the CV wants the DD dead, it does not matter. He will NEVER make it to the late game in the first place (taken out by the carrier, or being spotted by the carrier and taken out by the enemy team).

Sail into a corner and go afk/exit game. CV will waste time trying to look for you and red team will be more cautious agasint the unknown threat of torps (assuming you've got no smoke left etc)

[Hopeless_Guppy]

25 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

But if the CV wants the DD dead, it does not matter. He will NEVER make it to the late game in the first place (taken out by the carrier, or being spotted by the carrier and taken out by the enemy team).

Sorry that is just wrong, many a time I have wanted the DD dead, many a minute I have wasted in trying to find the little bugger, I usually get bored and go after something else, it is quite feasible I go go an entire game just chasing the DD's who by that time will have gone back to the main red fleet making sure my aircraft gets shredded by AA hence little damage done, let alone anything sunk.

I see people here on a both the high tiers, well I can well understand the love of the low tiers, no radar or hydro, maybe the lower tier are in fact the future, get a bit fed up of all the higher tiers with their supposedly OP ships.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

7 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Sail into a corner and go afk/exit game. CV will waste time trying to look for you and red team will be more cautious agasint the unknown threat of torps.

As hilarious as that sounds, I am sure the green team out of sheer outrage a DD is not willing to sacrifice himself in a cap would in no time be in he cross team chat telling of such positions

[Butterdoll]

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

I think we are saying the same thing in some parts of your post.

i'm repeating myself.

 

1 hour ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

And everybody but WG and a few CV fan boys have told OVER AND OVER again what reasons for that are, and why people quit playing DD And this includes numerous extremely good players, including CV players (among the best of the world).

 

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- CV overpoweredness in its rocket planes. Especially when the DD is NOT higher tier then the DD. The CV ALWAYS gets the first strike off. And unless he is a complete tool, that will do significant damage.

- The extreme amount of spotting the CV provides. If on your flank on your team, there WILL be no spotting bonusses. If the enemy CV, if he spots you, and the enemy is competent, that means you are immediately shelled by numerous enemy ships.

Cvs spot jack crap. What cvs do is ruin the spot bonuses for dds nothing more nothing less.

Cvs only spot briefly and only for themselves, the exact amount of time they need  to do a strike and that's all.

If they would spot until the ships could spot each other by themselves, then, go for damage, then and only then you could say the cvs are better than dds in spotting.

But that never happens, so,  overall, DDs are much better for spotting than Cvs.  (not because of the ship but because of selfish players)

 

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- Just dodge, is what CV fan boys scream. But usually 'just dodge' does not only mean dodging the incoming air strike as a DD, but usually also incoming fire from various directions. 

Just try to remain near a AA ship, a good  AA ship can make the bougie man (rocket planes) go away. Even if the planes manage to survive, the damage done to dds are much less than if there wasn't any AA ship around (again, not because of ships but because of players)

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- If the CV is on your flank, it already provides all the spotting.

No it doesn't see above why.(IMO)

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- Which means blob forming with the best of them, because that is the only way to get rid of the pest that are rocket aircraft. 

- Still does not eliminate the spotting element for the CV. Which means that the rest of the enemy team can still focus on you as a DD,

 

This only encourages extremely passive gameplay.

 

 

- O wait, they are NOT kings? Is that why they rank near the top in just about every category other than capping? As @El2aZeR has numerous times shown here on these forums. 

- What does near invulnerability to damage, and them not risking anything seriously make them NOT king? ESPECIALLY at the lower tiers.

- If they are not kings, why does every cowardly seal clubber jump into them in the lower tiers?

- Ever notice how common it is for CV players to whine about being uptiered? And, BTW, being uptiered normally still means you have same tier ships to target.

 

 

Because by and large AA spec is completely useless. It still does not stop first strike (unless blobbed), and it comes at the expense of FAR MORE valuable consumables; often even in CV games, but definitely when there is no CV around. O yeah, and whatever one or two extra aircraft you shoot down are regenerated immediately. And the effect is only felt by the CV player untill the game is already decided. Unless, of course, the CV is an extreme potato, even for CV standards.

I think this discussion is set in a random environment with more ships per side and with a different dynamic 

AA is still useful because not everyone is @El2aZeR or other good cv player, there are much more regular to potato players where AA can be a live saver, literally you press a button and torps go wonky on you and you manage to squeeze between them even in low speeds or can take 6 or more rocket planes out of the skies and so on.

If There was more AA specced ships than what exist right now , maybe cv would have a harder time.

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- AA vs Aiming systems? Aiming systems wins just about every day. Especially since the base Aa of many ships is absolute garbage; and absolute garbage + 5% is still absolute garbage in the world of normal thinking individuals.

- Aux Arm Mod vs GFC? For many ships with limited range, the choise is easy. 

Well, aiming systems in a cruiser are useless and in some cruisers Aux Arm Mod are a waste because the shells will take forever to hit the target at longer distances and even flamu has difficulties in hitting such targets, I assume the majority of us  have the same difficulties or more

But that boils down to choices 

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And this already goes for games WITH a CV. And specking AA leavers you at a far greater disadvantage if there is no CV. Also, all this AA spec is immediately and completel thrown away if - after the first strike which is near guaranteed to come through, or a HE spammer targeting you - the majority of your AA is taken out. Odds are, that in such a case, your AA 5 minutes in the game is less effective than a JB with all its main guns destroyed permanently. And in the mean time you have sacrificed a lot that could be useful in the rest of the game (and is not so easily damaged).

I rather be in a disantavantage in a non cv game than in a cv game.

And that never happened to me i never went below 90 % in Baltimore, try to never face a BB early in a game.

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And IMHO it would actually be a very good thing if a CV player CAN run out out of aircraft in 10 minutes. Because that means that absolute idiots will actually get punished, and feel the consequences of being absolute tools. Also, being an absolute tool in ANY other class tends to get you killed within 5 minutes, so that means that absolute tool CV players actually have 5 more minutes to ruin the game experience for everyone in the game. 

 

If I play like an absolute tool in BB, Cruiser or DD I get sent into port nearly immediately. In the mean time an absolute tool in a CV can still do significant damage, while in the process by sheer accident also spot enemy ships for the rest of his team (thus making them potential targets for the enemy fleet), is guaranteed spotting ribbons, and - when looking at damage numbers - still think he did good. Bad gameplay in a CV simply DOES NOT GET PUNISHED, at least not where the CV player is concerned. The other players on his team, and probably a large part of the enemey team actually do receive all the punishment.

 

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Name me the good AA ships in the game? Ships who - by specking AA - actually gain more than they lose in giving up the other perks. There is a reason why AA ships have completely disappeared from the game. And taking out an entire wing, is only possible EARLY in the game, by ships of equal or higher tier.

I'll do better than that i'll show you . 

 

Cvs when facing a AA ship tend to leave them alone, the AA ship and everyone that remains near it.

 

 

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[Bear__Necessities]

Man some of you are getting petty at each other. I haven’t played a lot of DD recently due to grinding 2 cruiser lines and keeping my CV skills sharp for CW but last times I took out DD’s it wasn’t an issue the current state of the game. Like I said in another post frankly the quality of DD players hinders a game just as much of not more than the opponent ship class and quality. Even none CV games DD’s potato full speed into obvious hydro and Radar traps blaming everyone as they die in the 1st few mins coz Mr Gearing thinks he can take on a cap filled with threats. CV’s just spot and hit those morons quicker is all. There is a reputation for Shima players for a reason. Long established before rework...