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Vogel

0.3.1 - Suggestion to split HE fire damage into two categories, external and internal

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Supertester
2,062 posts
3,890 battles

Greetings

 

As all of you are aware of, the new patch introduced a new armour model, new sounds, buffed HE mechanics and a ton of other stuff. In this topic I want to address one troublesome aspect of the HE buff, namely fire. Since HE has been a much more viable option in this patch (AP is still great, btw), a lot more of these shells are flying around. In practical terms this means a whole lot more of HE generated fires onboard on cruisers (CA) and battleships (BB). DDs can also be set aflame, but the short reload of repair effectively negates this issue. I will not discuss the increased HE damage in this topic, as that is a separate issue entirely.

 

Now the main problem with HE fires is that since it has been a much more frequent occurrence, the repair skill for CA and repair/damage party for BB can no longer keep up with the fires. Hence a lot of times you will risk burning out. This was fine before the patch, but now you will in many instances be constantly on fire.  Therefore I suggest to have two different fire effects:

 

1. Fire generated with hull-breaching HE shell/Citadel hit.

2. Ship skin fire.

 

Hull breaching fires will function as the current fire mechanic (or perhaps more aggressively vs BB players, to take the low(er) chance of hull penetration into consideration). This fire will take away a good portion of player health over time if let unchecked. A fire within the hull could be less visible than a free surface fire, due to no visible flames (but equal amount of smoke). 

Ship skin/deck fires will take much less damage over time, but will wreck external modules or just disable them for the duration of the fire. Furthermore, it will make the target more visible than internal fires. This will be the most common fire of all ships, with the exception of DDs :P.

 

The main benefits of these two different fire effects are a more realistic fire model and reduction of he "OPness" of HE shells. Internal fires are much more damaging to combat operations than external ones, since it will effectively disrupt combat operations and make certain sections of the ship unusable. Hence a more aggressively damage over time for this model is appropriate. Since there will be no visible flames on the surface, it will also not increase the spotting range of the vessel in the same degree as a external fire. An external fire will increase spottng range, wreck secondary armaments/AA where the fire is ongoing, but not have such an aggressive DoT, since deck plating catching fire is not critical for ship operations (with the exception of visibility from the bridge, but that isn't included in this game). 

 

Gameplay wise, this means that an internal fire will be a dangerous effect, much the same as flooding, whereas an external one will take away HP, but not as drastically. It will reduce the chance of BBs and perhaps especially CAs burning to death while their repair ability is on cooldown.

 

TL;DR: Two categories of fire, one external one internal. Internal one has an aggressive damage over time effect, external one much less so. External fires increase spotting range more than internal. This will prevent HE spam from causing CAs and DDs to burn to death while their repair abilities are on cooldown UNLESS they they are hit twice with a penetrating HE shell, in which case they will lose HP at the same rate (or greater)  as the fire mechanic currently in game.

 

I would appreciate feedback and discussions regarding this suggestion :honoring:

 

  • Cool 7

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Beta Tester
71 posts
90 battles

HE shells themselves shouldn't cause fires period. The fires should be a result of components on the ship that catch fire in the explosion. Magazines, fuel, turrets...etc There is not enough incendiary material in an HE shell to maintain a burning fire on a deck/hull hit by itself.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
2,062 posts
3,890 battles

Of course. But since that will be a much more complex model (which I doubt they'll implement), the percent-based model is what we currently have and this is just a suggestion to make that model more "acceptable" 

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Beta Tester
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they already do it in WoT, how can the model be too complex? the problem right now seems more that they are calculating on the wrong thing. Right now an HE shell hits and they simply calculate if it fires or not. They should be using it in reverse and starting with what got hit on the ship and where just like in WoT.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
2,062 posts
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The only components that sets a tank on fire is fuel tanks and engine (and in some cases the transmission, but that is gradually phasing out). On a ship fires will be generated from secondary guns exploding, main deck timber, storage room for cleaning oil and paint, the paint on deck plating itself (I'm no expert, so the paint might be fire-resistant from ll I know), life-boats, scouting planes etc. etc. All these modules will have to be generated with saving throws, hitboxes and so on. Very work-intensive, and alot more work to implement than WoT's model. And note that I only took external modules into consideration. 

Edited by Vogel

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Beta Tester
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paint? lol

 

anyway, HE shells are explosive, not incendiary. they are not depleted uranium or sabot rounds we have today. Not only am I former Navy, I am also a fireman. I have ACTUAL experience in this area and even caused fires with such sources in test scenarios. Given the ships used in this game you have very few possible sources to catch fire from explosion.

 

Fuel, ammo, boilers are going to be your primary means. Wood materials falling into a smaller category that could best be categorized in a catch all % chance much lower than the primary component source fires.

 

I like your two ideas though. A skin fire increasing visibility with a shorter duration than say an internal component cased fire that costs ship health.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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I never said that the current model were realistic, only that the changes I proposed would make it more realistic than it currently is :P

 

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Alpha Tester
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paint? lol

 

anyway, HE shells are explosive, not incendiary. they are not depleted uranium or sabot rounds we have today. Not only am I former Navy, I am also a fireman. I have ACTUAL experience in this area and even caused fires with such sources in test scenarios. Given the ships used in this game you have very few possible sources to catch fire from explosion.

 

Fuel, ammo, boilers are going to be your primary means. Wood materials falling into a smaller category that could best be categorized in a catch all % chance much lower than the primary component source fires.

 

I like your two ideas though. A skin fire increasing visibility with a shorter duration than say an internal component cased fire that costs ship health.

 

During the battle Off Samar the IJN cruisers' superstructures were made a wreck thanks to all the flammable material in then including the paint on the plating.

 

Choukai for example, was seriously damaged by an HE shell that made her torps explode. Next day she was scuttled.

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Weekend Tester
166 posts
120 battles

Instead of trying to address how "realistic" fire damage is and how much damage it does it should be look from the other side, the damage control side.

 

Right now all the complaining about fire results from the fact that normal damage control is slow as hell and everyone relies on the instant fix.

They should remove the instant fix (maybe keep it as a consumable) and the BB health potion and make a simply control system that splits into 

  • restoration (restores HP, same as health potion now but is for all classes, rate depends on crew capacity/class)
  • fire/flooding control (as name says, puts out fire, stops leakage)
  • repair (repairs turrets, ruder etc.)

 

That basically means you would get 3 bars (with 3 buttons) which lets you regulate the priority of this task.

Normal all settings are equal so it takes some time do any of this things, but lets say you are on fire, you can assign "all hands" to fire fighting skipping on restoration and repairs decreasing the timer significantly.

Another scenario would be if you are on fire and also your rudder got hit, now is the choice what to prioritize, if you are still in a fight ruder would be of utmost importance, if you finished your fight you could focus on the fire or let both take their time.

 

It even possible to give slight bonuses to each of this settings when they are at 100%,

  • restoration would give a slight damage reduction,
  • fire/flood control would give a bonus to fire/flood prevention
  • repair would give a bonus to resistance of equipment/weapons.

 

But than again in what direction the game is heading this is probably "to complex for the average player"...

Edited by Hornet331
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Beta Tester
105 posts
389 battles

It's simpler to reduce the chance of a HE shell causing a fire.  Keep the damage and reduce the fire chance down.

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Weekend Tester
166 posts
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It's simpler to reduce the chance of a HE shell causing a fire.  Keep the damage and reduce the fire chance down.

 

Wont stop HE meta

DDs still will deal 1-3k per volley resulting in 12-36k DPM. And thats only for DDs.

 

So yeah after you reduced fire chance, people still will whine that HE will decimate them.

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Beta Tester
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I really like the idea of Hornet331.

 

It brings a new depth to the gameplay. A bit of micromanagement wouldnt do the game any harm. In fact Id like it. To get more skill into WOWs.

But at least increase the rate at wich fires get extinguished. ATM its making the repair button insanely OP the time we have it.

 

 

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
2,062 posts
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@Hornet, neat idea, I rather like it. But I still think the two-category system for fires are rather nice, if I may say so myself. And yes, I can agree that HE damage is somewhat buggy right now (sometimes dealing massive damage to BBs, sometimes nothing), the pint of this suggestion was regarding the fire mechanic, and not the initial HE damage.  

@above:

The main problempeople have with the HE fire system now, is that CA and BBs have a very long reload on their repair button. Since everybody is spamming HE after the patch, they are constantly lit on fire with no real countermeasure except repairs. I haven't experienced this myself, but I would think it is very frustrating using repairs after a long slugging match, only to be lit on fire by a hidden DD. So now you have to wait 2 minutes until repair goes up, or slowly burn to death in that interval. 

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Beta Tester
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the problem as BB commander is that you should always try to keep the repair for eventual torps and their flooding.

If you burn the rep and get torped in between the repair reload you are screwed.

Right now if you use the rep to extinguish the flames.. you get set afire two seconds later. Bloody useless repair Id say.

 

Also:

Bevore the patch I felt HE is a tactical choice. I used it bevore a torp attack to try and force the rep bevore my torp impact. And also I crippled DDs.

On the other hand I did very well against HE spammer when I plugged them with AP. CA vs CA I did very nice cit hits. Atm. I feel gimped when I shoot AP in most situations now. HE does about the same dmge. But the fire adds up over time. Its not rare to see 15-20k fire dmge for me. I do that very often in my CAs.

Edited by BansheeLemming

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
2,062 posts
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ANd that is exactly the point with my suggestion. External fires (most common one) would not do as much damage as an internal one. Meaning you can be lit on fire externally and not die from it even though your repair ability i on C/D. If they manage to inflict an internal fire instead, you are toast :P

 

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