Idea for the Royal Navy Battlecruiser line

[DrMechano]

I'm kind of curious where, if we do get a tech tree BC line, the RN Battlecruisers would fall as either Cruiser or Battleship. There are certainly enough to fill out a tech tree as either a dedicated Battlecruiser line OR as a secondary Fast Battleship line, however if they go the Fast Battleship line then we'd definitely need to do some uptiering/downtiering as they work at their tier for a supercruiser but not as a Battleship. Might decided to have the line start off as Battleship but move into cruiser at the higher tiers with the 3-5 being Battleships and the 6-10 being Supercruisers. Unfortunately Wargaming have shoved Battlecruisers in both Battleship AND Cruiser lines because they clearly have no idea what they want to do with the class.

 

Tier 3: Invincible Class. Stripped down HMS Dreadnought, loses armor and a gun turret, speed 25 knots. 8 x 305mm guns.

 

Tier 4: Indefatigable Class: An upgrade to the Invincible class, not a huge step up but roughly the same ideas with better firing arcs.

 

Tier 5: Lion Class (will probably have to use one of the sister ships since we already have a Lion class ingame, so Princess Royal): 8 x 343mm guns, speed 32 knots.

 

Tier 6: Tiger Class: Keeps the 32 knots and 8 x 343mm guns but this is where you transition into the (Super)Cruiser line.

 

Tier 7: Courageous class: still 32 knots but upgrades to 4 x 381mm guns, she'd be a terrible BB at tier 6 or 7 but as a Super cruiser the enhanced accuracy but lower guns isn't a terrible problem.

 

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

 

Tier 9 : Admiral class: We already have one of these ingame as HMS Hood, naturally higher tier due to it being a cruiser with better cruiser accuracy but still retaining the tier 7 armor scheme and higher citadel.

 

Tier 10: G3 Battlecruiser: Paper cruiser, planned but never built. If introduced into the game as a cruiser (and not as a Battleship) it would have the largest guns to be mounted on one at 9 x 406mm and capable of 31 knots, putting her closer to a Battleship than a Cruiser and as such may be pushing the idea of Supercruiser to its very limits even if the armor scheme was closer to Cruiser than Battleship.

[1MajorKoenig]

Courageous at T7 

 

Well it’s not a new topic but certainly one of my favourites 

[DrMechano]

Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

Courageous at T7 

 

Well it’s not a new topic but certainly one of my favourites 

For a cruiser packing 381mm guns, I imagine she'd be...okish...at tier 7...look I couldn't think of what else to put there and every line has at least one Turkey in it. Like I said, she's an oddball in that she's too crap to be a Battleship higher than tier 5 but has too big a guns to be a Supercruiser at tier 6. It seems like WG reserve the 381mm guns for tiers 9/10 on cruisers if the German options are anything to go by so 4 381mm at tier 7...maybe it's acceptable...*shrugs*

[Yedwy]

They can be BBs, it would be enough for them to have less vertical armor and more speed with better manuverability, maybe speed boost consumable and BC dispersion...

 

There is nothing wrong with acurate consistent guns on a BB if she has other tradeoffs such as range, armor or reload

[1MajorKoenig]

2 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

For a cruiser packing 381mm guns, I imagine she'd be...okish...at tier 7...look I couldn't think of what else to put there and every line has at least one Turkey in it. Like I said, she's an oddball in that she's too crap to be a Battleship higher than tier 5 but has too big a guns to be a Supercruiser at tier 6. It seems like WG reserve the 381mm guns for tiers 9/10 on cruisers if the German options are anything to go by so 4 381mm at tier 7...maybe it's acceptable...*shrugs*

she is more of a T4/5 prem probably and likely a pretty frustrating one

 

there is kind of a community consensus that the British BCs would likely come as a BB line split for the RN:

 

T3 Indefatigable 

T4 Lion/Queen Mary

T5 Tiger

T6 Renown

T7 Admiral oder J3

T8 G3 Design

T9 paper 

T10 paper

[HaachamaShipping]

Slapping Hood at T9 with supercruiser dispersion in a cruiser slot is absolutely mental. Concealment would be inbetween Kronshtadt and Stalingrad, the armour scheme for a cruiser is stupidly good, the guns have overmatch. The ship basically is a RN version of Siegfried, with the same kind of balancing nightmare.

 

Honestly, the line better just stay consistently BB and not even touch the cruisers, because these are battlecruisers, not supercruisers. Put the battlecruisers in tiers where they belong.

[Yedwy]

4 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

she is more of a T4/5 prem probably and likely a pretty frustrating one

 

there is kind of a community consensus that the British BCs would likely come as a BB line split for the RN:

 

T3 Indefatigable 

T4 Lion/Queen Mary

T5 Tiger

T6 Renown

T7 Admiral oder J3

T8 G3 Design

T9 paper 

T10 paper

Nothing wrong with a line stopping at T8 IMHO

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, Yedwy said:

Nothing wrong with a line stopping at T8 IMHO

not wrong for you or me — but wrong for WG (high tiers = high money) 

[DrMechano]

16 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Nothing wrong with a line stopping at T8 IMHO

as Koenig says, WG don't like stopping tech tree lines early these days. Back in WoT early days Arty, Medium tanks and TDs only went to tier 9 which everyone was fine with but they've since made everything tier 10. If we were going with Koenig's plan for them as simply fast battleships with accurate AP as an answer to the 'spam HE' BB line then that would be a nice change of place. Unfortunately we lack a tier 9 and 10 design. I mean they COULD just give the Lion class ( the ingame one) 6 x 457mm guns as an answer to the Georgia and then do a Thunderer 'sister ship' (I mean she never existed anyway so *shrugs*, hell call her the Thunderchild for giggles, might as well be named after an equally fictitious ship who nobody can decide on whether she was actually a torpedo ram or an Ironclad/Dreadnaught since Wells gives her the armament of the latter with the speed for the former).

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

as Koenig says, WG don't like stopping tech tree lines early these days. Back in WoT early days Arty, Medium tanks and TDs only went to tier 9 which everyone was fine with but they've since made everything tier 10. If we were going with Koenig's plan for them as simply fast battleships with accurate AP as an answer to the 'spam HE' BB line then that would be a nice change of place. Unfortunately we lack a tier 9 and 10 design. I mean they COULD just give the Lion class ( the ingame one) 6 x 457mm guns as an answer to the Georgia and then do a Thunderer 'sister ship' (I mean she never existed anyway so *shrugs*, hell call her the Thunderchild for giggles, might as well be named after an equally fictitious ship who nobody can decide on whether she was actually a torpedo ram or an Ironclad/Dreadnaught since Wells gives her the armament of the latter with the speed for the former).

Well, there are plenty of 1920s design though. However — these would end up like Conqueror Frankenstein ships. And you don’t even need to include stuff like Incomparable 

[ColonelPete]

56 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

I'm kind of curious where, if we do get a tech tree BC line, the RN Battlecruisers would fall as either Cruiser or Battleship. There are certainly enough to fill out a tech tree as either a dedicated Battlecruiser line OR as a secondary Fast Battleship line, however if they go the Fast Battleship line then we'd definitely need to do some uptiering/downtiering as they work at their tier for a supercruiser but not as a Battleship. Might decided to have the line start off as Battleship but move into cruiser at the higher tiers with the 3-5 being Battleships and the 6-10 being Supercruisers. Unfortunately Wargaming have shoved Battlecruisers in both Battleship AND Cruiser lines because they clearly have no idea what they want to do with the class.

 

Tier 3: Invincible Class. Stripped down HMS Dreadnought, loses armor and a gun turret, speed 25 knots. 8 x 305mm guns.

 

Tier 4: Indefatigable Class: An upgrade to the Invincible class, not a huge step up but roughly the same ideas with better firing arcs.

 

Tier 5: Lion Class (will probably have to use one of the sister ships since we already have a Lion class ingame, so Princess Royal): 8 x 343mm guns, speed 32 knots.

 

Tier 6: Tiger Class: Keeps the 32 knots and 8 x 343mm guns but this is where you transition into the (Super)Cruiser line.

 

Tier 7: Courageous class: still 32 knots but upgrades to 4 x 381mm guns, she'd be a terrible BB at tier 6 or 7 but as a Super cruiser the enhanced accuracy but lower guns isn't a terrible problem.

 

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

 

Tier 9 : Admiral class: We already have one of these ingame as HMS Hood, naturally higher tier due to it being a cruiser with better cruiser accuracy but still retaining the tier 7 armor scheme and higher citadel.

 

Tier 10: G3 Battlecruiser: Paper cruiser, planned but never built. If introduced into the game as a cruiser (and not as a Battleship) it would have the largest guns to be mounted on one at 9 x 406mm and capable of 31 knots, putting her closer to a Battleship than a Cruiser and as such may be pushing the idea of Supercruiser to its very limits even if the armor scheme was closer to Cruiser than Battleship.

No.

BC are BB and should be tiered as such.

Admiral Class belongs into Tier VII as a BB.

[DrMechano]

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

No.

BC are BB and should be tiered as such.

Admiral Class belongs into Tier VII as a BB.

That's why I gave the option as Fast BB OR Supercruiser, rather than saying just BC, Koenig has pointed out a decent fit for a fast BB line, though we're lacking a tier 9 and 10. As mentioned the 'normal' Tech tree has fictional ones so we could just slap 6 x 457mm on the Lion hull as a UK answer to the Georgia and have a clone of the Thunderer as the tier 10 but maybe with some tweaks to her to differentiate her from her Coal brethren (not sure what to be honest, better AA?).

[ColonelPete]

It is ok to end BC lines at Tier VIII. After that normal BB have the speed of BC.

[annoyedgrunt]

This line should have been added so long ago but instead we get are getting another paper carrier line and submarines. Sad really

 

[CptBarney]

Yeah these should be treated as BB's since their gun caliber is too big for a Supercruiser and the guns they do have are battlecruiser battleship caliber, would be better to swap some of these around so that their armour schemes better reflect the tier they should be in (admiral class for example at tier 7 along with pudding (hood)).

 

I dont have time atm to check the stats for every ship to see if they are viable, i think someone did a pretty good take on this already if im not mistaken.

 

Still i want this line in the game regardless.

[Yedwy]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

It is ok to end BC lines at Tier VIII. After that normal BB have the speed of BC.

This

[malcobot]

 

On 4/21/2020 at 1:19 PM, DrMechano said:

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

since when did renown class have 36knots speed?

 

[invicta2012]

Alright then, I'll bite.

 

Tier 3: Invincible 

Tier 4: Lion / Queen Mary

Tier 5: Tiger

Tier 6: Repulse

Tier 7: HMS Beatty. Vanguard hull and speed, KGV guns.

Tier 8 : J3 Battlecruiser (9 x 15 inch, 33 knots)

Tier 9 : G3 Battlecruiser (9 x 16 inch, 32 knots)

Tier 10: I3 Battlecruiser (9 x 18 inch in an ABQ arrangement, 32 knots)

[CptBarney]

45 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Alright then, I'll bite.

 

Tier 3: Invincible 

Tier 4: Lion / Queen Mary

Tier 5: Tiger

Tier 6: Repulse

Tier 7: HMS Beatty. Vanguard hull and speed, KGV guns.

Tier 8 : J3 Battlecruiser (9 x 15 inch, 33 knots)

Tier 9 : G3 Battlecruiser (9 x 16 inch, 32 knots)

Tier 10: I3 Battlecruiser (9 x 18 inch in an ABQ arrangement, 32 knots)

Id probs swap out beatty with either courageous or Anson to keep it a bit more consistent. Otherwise i fully agree.

[Kruzenstern]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:32 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

she is more of a T4/5 prem probably and likely a pretty frustrating one

 

there is kind of a community consensus that the British BCs would likely come as a BB line split for the RN:

 

T3 Indefatigable 

T4 Lion/Queen Mary

T5 Tiger

T6 Renown

T7 Admiral oder J3

T8 G3 Design

T9 paper 

T10 paper

 

From all I have read, the G3s were far ahead of their time, possibly rivaling the capabilities of the Iowa-class of 20 years later, so I would place them at tier 9, especially since they are rather 'hard' paper ships, having been ordered and possibly even laid down before cancellation. Then J3 for tier8 and some other paper ship for tier10...

 

But what are the odds of us ever seeing these? They are mostly not paper nor russian....

[1MajorKoenig]

8 minutes ago, Kruzenstern said:

 

From all I have read, the G3s were far ahead of their time, possibly rivaling the capabilities of the Iowa-class of 20 years later, so I would place them at tier 9, especially since they are rather 'hard' paper ships, having been ordered and possibly even laid down before cancellation. Then J3 for tier8 and some other paper ship for tier10...

 

But what are the odds of us ever seeing these? They are mostly not paper nor russian....

 

I would say it’s quite likely we will see them.

 

btw

 

J3 was more or less a 3x3 Hood. These guns in game are T6 guns - I highly doubt she would be fun at T8 although you could tweaks soft stats 

 

G3 is more of a fast  Nelson than close to Iowa I would say. These 40.6cm guns aren’t great and the armor May be good for 1920 but is weak for high tiers. Of course you can overtune these ships to whatever tier you want but would you really want a 30kn Nelson as a T9?

[DrMechano]

One of the ships I was told when I bought this up on the NA forums is that we could include the K3 as the tier 10, which is a 3x3 457mm proposal of a Battlecruiser. As for the G3 it was going to have the same 406mm guns that the Nelson had. So it would not posses the US style Super Heavy shells the Iowa and Montana get. I am definitely now putting the Supercruiser idea as a very silly idea I had and moving with Koenig's idea of fast battleships. Also to that proposal I'd definitely drop the Beatty, it doesn't really fit the line IMO and swap in the Anson at tier 7.

[The_White_Whale]

On 4/21/2020 at 1:19 PM, DrMechano said:

Tier 3: Invincible Class. Stripped down HMS Dreadnought, loses armor and a gun turret, speed 25 knots. 8 x 305mm guns.

 

Tier 4: Indefatigable Class: An upgrade to the Invincible class, not a huge step up but roughly the same ideas with better firing arcs.

 

Tier 5: Lion Class (will probably have to use one of the sister ships since we already have a Lion class ingame, so Princess Royal): 8 x 343mm guns, speed 32 knots.

 

Tier 6: Tiger Class: Keeps the 32 knots and 8 x 343mm guns but this is where you transition into the (Super)Cruiser line.

 

Tier 7: Courageous class: still 32 knots but upgrades to 4 x 381mm guns, she'd be a terrible BB at tier 6 or 7 but as a Super cruiser the enhanced accuracy but lower guns isn't a terrible problem.

 

Tier 8 : Renown class: This one is the biggie, what ever RN fanboy (myself included) wants. 36 knots of speed, 6 x 381mm guns.

 

Tier 9 : Admiral class: We already have one of these ingame as HMS Hood, naturally higher tier due to it being a cruiser with better cruiser accuracy but still retaining the tier 7 armor scheme and higher citadel.

 

Tier 10: G3 Battlecruiser: Paper cruiser,

 

 

Invincible at T3 is fine.

The indefatigable is bit weak for T4, Princess Mary would be more competitive, not that it really matters much down in that area.

Tiger at T6 is a lot of an ask, the ship has the same broadside firepower as the T4 Orion, she would be a comfortable and sexy T5. The Tiger could also 'only' do 28 knots, although managed 29.5 during testing. WG are very hit and miss when it comes to using service or test speeds...

 

The Courageous weren't actualy Battlecruisers, despite how much the one guy on wikipedia insists otherwise, they were designed as 'large light cruisers' tasked with providing heavy shore bombardment in the shallow waters of a possible Baltic campaign, their high speed was to allow them to avoid destroyers and torpedo boats launched from local harbours. As such, despite their historical status, they just don't fit into the game. It's essentially a ship the size of a T7 BB, but with armour that one day hopes to be as good as the Emeralds. At T7.

 

The Renown is a solid T6, almost QE level AA suite, 75% of a Warspites firepower but with speed and better firing angles to help balance things out. You would need arcade mode firing rates to be competitive at T8. The Vanguard with an extra turret is an utter piece of garbage at T8 already.

 

Admiral at T9? A ship which is already in the game as a fairly mediocre T7 BB? Sorry but the Siegfried which was faster, had more secondaries, torpedoes and more complete armour has already been stuck in development hell due to it's suckage at T9, an overtiered Hood would only be there to provide xp for the paper super ships that now dominate those tiers.

 

2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Alright then, I'll bite.

 

Tier 3: Invincible 

Tier 4: Lion / Queen Mary

Tier 5: Tiger

Tier 6: Repulse

Tier 7: HMS Beatty. Vanguard hull and speed, KGV guns.

Tier 8 : J3 Battlecruiser (9 x 15 inch, 33 knots)

Tier 9 : G3 Battlecruiser (9 x 16 inch, 32 knots)

Tier 10: I3 Battlecruiser (9 x 18 inch in an ABQ arrangement, 32 knots)

 

 

Odd that you go for Repulse instead of Renown at T6, the Renowns much more complete AA suite, which is pretty close to the QE's, might be a better fit. The lack of modernisation of the Repulse could make it a potent and sexy T5 prem.

 

Worth noting that the Renown still hit 32knots in 1943, after the added drag of its modernisations supposedly limited its speed. Although the Admiralty gave the captain a telling off for using emergancy war power... In the middle of the war.

 

The T7 being a fictional ship seems an odd pick as well, we could finally see the modernised Admiral hull or any of the myriad of actual designs of the era, and naming it after Beatty, the man who many believe responsible for the loss of a lot of lives on battlecruisers at Jutland seems a touch harsh!

[DrMechano]

Yeah like I said, dropped the idea of the them as cruisers. Doesn't make a lot of sense, they're fast BBs.

My own personal list now looks close to INvicta with a few changes.

 

Tier 3: Invincible.

Tier 4: Princess Royal (same as Lion but doesn't share the name with a tier 9 BB).

Tier 5: Tiger.

Tier 6: Renown.

Tier 7: J3/Admiral.

Tier 8: G3 Battlecruiser.

Tier 9: TBD (not sure what fit here, the K3 could go in here but the G3 was actually the later design which makes no sense in putting an earlier prototype later in the line, that would be like putting the Izumo after the Yamato).

Tier 10: I3 Battlecruiser

[Yedwy]

Date of the design is not relevant there are instances of ships being designed/completed after their follow ups in tree, the stats of the ship/design are relevant