Few clarification required

[Pan_Kalich]

I am quite new to this game, mostly I play solo random battles or sometimes ranked, did not participate in any clan battle... for ... various reasons. So before you start bashing me about being noob with low WR and no right to speak my opinion, pls spare me ... I am well aware, but I am trying to improve although I do not have any ambition beyond that.

Regardless, I would love to have explained few things

 

1/ why the almost general loathing of CVs? I did not see in any game that single CV could dominate a battle more than any other type of ship would, given the right opportunity. I mean, CV in my noobish opinion has advantage when hunting solo ships that are far away from main convoy (or group of ships ... not yet familiar with the community terminology) ... if CV attack any ship sailing in the group, then it is very likely that their planes will get shredded in the pieces quite quickly and CV ends up without planes quite quickly and with limited capabilities for remainder of the battle. What I think is that most of the players who complains about CV are those that get occasionaly caught with their pants down in the middle of nowhere far from allied AA support and raging simply because being harrased one ship hiding (for most of the time) out of sight is from their view "unfair" (dd's anyone??) 

 

2/ Why are people so obsessed with WR statistics in this game? (yes, happened to me several times when some frustrated dude after the battle PMd me, saying that my WR sucks, L2P and so on ... like what the hell :D) Yes, it shows precisely what it says, nothing more, nothing less ... but it does not show how good or bad you are. I mean, you can be excellent player but it wont do you any good if you are by matchmaking assigned to group of players who randomly sail over the map, without elementary understanding (yes, I am well aware that sometimes I might be one of those) of game or faintest grasp of teamplay element and your WR goes down like a brick regardless how hard you try and how well you perform in the battle. Or on the contrary ... you can be pretty bad player, but if you get lucky to be assigned to teammates that are good at the game, well, you simply get carried along and getting wins without contributing much to the overall result.

 

Thanks for any constructive reply

[ColonelPete]

1. CV can attack anywhere and normal ships have a hard time attacking CV, many find that unfair
2. Solo WR tells you how strong a player is, bad luck with teams runs out after a couple hundred games, with 1000+ matches the bad luck factor has an effect close to zero, just basic statistics

[firerider202]

Vor 19 Minuten, Pan_Kalich sagte:

why the almost general loathing of CVs?

Because its not fun to play against it, and because these days everyone is complaining about everything just to complain about something. Its just more easy to blame wg for everything. 

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

1/ why the almost general loathing of CVs? I did not see in any game that single CV could dominate a battle more than any other type of ship would, given the right opportunity. I mean, CV in my noobish opinion has advantage when hunting solo ships that are far away from main convoy (or group of ships ... not yet familiar with the community terminology) ... if CV attack any ship sailing in the group, then it is very likely that their planes will get shredded in the pieces quite quickly and CV ends up without planes quite quickly and with limited capabilities for remainder of the battle. What I think is that most of the players who complains about CV are those that get occasionaly caught with their pants down in the middle of nowhere far from allied AA support and raging simply because being harrased one ship hiding (for most of the time) out of sight is from their view "unfair" (dd's anyone??)  

 

Whether all ships should hug in one group in this game is ofc up for debate, but i dont see it as such. DDs arent supposed to sit in the back with their Cruisers/BBs, because they dont have the range to do anything, and they have been the eyes for their team for 4 years, and now that changed. Also they are supposed to get the caps, because, well other ships cant really do that unless there is no other ship within 10-15km.

And then there is the tactical aspect of flanking the enemy team. CVs effectively prevent any tactic where you want to outplay your opponent. He will spot you first, telling the entire team your intention. And then he can just kill you easily, since you are alone. Mind you, we have several ships that are designed to that in the first place.

 

8 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

but it does not show how good or bad you are.

Thats entirely wrong tho. If you have played enough games, it does tell whether you are a good player, who increases the chance for winning, or if you are a bad player, who makes his team lose more often due to your actions.

 

9 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

I mean, you can be excellent player but it wont do you any good if you are by matchmaking assigned to group of players who randomly sail over the map, without elementary understanding (yes, I am well aware that sometimes I might be one of those) of game or faintest grasp of teamplay element and your WR goes down like a brick regardless how hard you try and how well you perform in the battle. Or on the contrary ... you can be pretty bad player, but if you get lucky to be assigned to teammates that are good at the game, well, you simply get carried along and getting wins without contributing much to the overall result.

And this is only true for a specific game, not for every game you play. Thats why, once you have played enough battles, you have had your share of good and potato teammates. Sometimes you get carried, sometimes you lose despite all efforts. But it still evens out over time&battles.

[Echo_519]

Winrate doen't tell anything but the percentage of ALL the games played that were won. Therefore it tells nothing about the current skill. 

Surely, you can say that someone with overall 75%+ winrate must be good, because it's hard to suddenly "forget" how to play this game.

But you could aswell have a player, that in his first half of his WoWs career had a 25% winrate, and in the 2nd half a 75% winrate. So to current skill that would be a unicum, even though overall it's only 50% winrate.

Problem is that most people that look up stats actually have no idea how to read stats... 

[ColonelPete]

17 minutes ago, Echo_519 said:

But you could aswell have a player, that in his first half of his WoWs career had a 25% winrate, and in the 2nd half a 75% winrate. So to current skill that would be a unicum, even though overall it's only 50% winrate.

Show me ONE such player, just ONE!

[Ouzo11]

CVs:
-Can attack and farm damage while being unspotted. Meanwhile every other ship is almost always visible when shooting.
-Within a few seconds can get its planes from one, to the other side of a ship thus taking advantage of ships with high rudder shift time.
-Negates the low surface detectability advantage some ships have while remaining unspotted.
-High damage versus dds. 7k rocket salvos are 40% of the dds hp.

-AA is weak and with some skillful wasd-hacks can avoid taking too much plane damage.
All that [edited] has no counter play besides staying in a blob and even then he can still perform  at least 1 attack run.

WR:
A 50% wr player has no real contribution to the match.
A 40% wr player has a negative contribution.
A 56% wr player has a positive contribution.
Anything above 56-57% wr is 99% of the time the product of divisions.
People are obsessed with wr because it shows them what can they expect from you.
If you are in a 45% wr dd, the flank is probably already lost.
If you are a 60% bb, they know you ll support your cruisers, focus radars and position yourself in a way that you can support your team mates.
Besides wr though, the statistics to pay attention to is:
-PR: Greatly affected by damage. Not that important imo, but i still look at it.
-Survivalability %: High numbers here in bbs usually mean that he is camping in the back of the map. Low numbers that he is aggressive and pushing fast thus dyeing more.
-Gun hit rate: Pretty much how well can one aim. Less important on daka daka ships with high ranges.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

Well mate, if the dd you're playing gets nuked to half hp in the first minute of the match because the cv thinks he doesn't like you and all your maneuvering is in vain... then you will know why people hate cv. Also keep in mind they can't detonate, can almost outrun cruisers, have ridiculously good concealment for their size, extinguish fires in 5s and  - at tier 10 - will bounce any shell hitting the deck, even yamato shells, which is just completely bizarre. I know,  it's a game yadayada, but I don't believe any sort of deck armor will stop a 1.5 ton shell coming in at just sub sonic speed - if we're generous.

 

As for wr: It does tell you a lot. Back in the day unicum cv players could have 80% win rates. Any player beyond 55% is one you can Generally rely on. It's as simple as this. Especially since this wr implies a great deal of game knowledge. 

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 2 hodinami dCK_Ad_Hominem řekl/a:

if the dd you're playing gets nuked to half hp in the first minute of the match because the cv thinks he doesn't like you

 

As for wr: Back in the day unicum cv players could have 80% win rates.

And if CV wont do that, it gets yelled at by rest of the team for not going after DDs in first place :D and if he does, there is always someone in the team that complains that CV does shitty job for not protecting him especially :D

Well, forgive me if I am wrong, but judging WR rate of certain type of ship with current MM makes no sense. I mean, since both teams have CV, certainly not all CV players could have 80% WR ... what about those on the losing side? They also had CV and lost.

 

Před 2 hodinami Ouzo11 řekl/a:

CVs:
All that [edited] has no counter play besides staying in a blob and even then he can still perform  at least 1 attack run.

Yes, but that one attack run will do diddly [edited] dmg ... I dont see why this would incurr so much rage in players :D ... except .. "god damn it, why me again"? (been there too ... i know it from the other side of the fence too)

Anyway guys, I appreciate your responses, thanks

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

And if CV wont do that, it gets yelled at by rest of the team for not going after DDs in first place :D and if he does, there is always someone in the team that complains that CV does shitty job for not protecting him especially :D

Well, forgive me if I am wrong, but judging WR rate of certain type of ship with current MM makes no sense. I mean, since both teams have CV, certainly not all CV players could have 80% WR ... what about those on the losing side? They also had CV and lost.

 

Just shows how "well balanced" CVs really are, combined with the skills of the average player, and thats what you get. If you look at the extremes, i.e. the highest/lowest WR players, CVs go beyond what other ships are capable of. So you get people with higher WR, but also people with lower WR.

CVs have the potential to basicly kill everything, while being able to reduce the damage planes take by dodging flak. If a CV player cant dodge flak, his influence is much lower, as he cant effectively strike enemies.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

2 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

And if CV wont do that, it gets yelled at by rest of the team for not going after DDs in first place :D and if he does, there is always someone in the team that complains that CV does shitty job for not protecting him especially :D

Well, forgive me if I am wrong, but judging WR rate of certain type of ship with current MM makes no sense. I mean, since both teams have CV, certainly not all CV players could have 80% WR ... what about those on the losing side? They also had CV and lost.

 

Yes, but that one attack run will do diddly [edited] dmg ... I dont see why this would incurr so much rage in players :D ... except .. "god damn it, why me again"? (been there too ... i know it from the other side of the fence too)

Anyway guys, I appreciate your responses, thanks

So much this, the dreaded blob, AA swipes your plane's for right in front of your eyes for very little if not zero damage, as enraging for you as it is your team who expect miracles.

 

The only happy people when I am in my CV's are the red team, show me any DD and chances are I will miss it, which ofc is hilarious for said red team who correctly imagine me with steam blowing out of my ears

[Bratoev]

The CV hate is mostly hypocrisy.

 

The red CV? He is the devil. A force of nature against which there is no counterplay. He and his planes took me behind that island and did things...

 

The green CV? He is a cool dude that spots for me and helps kill the enemy DD. What a swell guy he is.

[Humorpalanta]

Why the hate for CVs?

 

Because right now CV can attack you almost every 30 seconds. (It is an average. 1 squadron can have 3 attacks within a minute and then just returns with the next squadron even before your consumables reload or his fire burns out.) Therefore he can bully you however he wants and there is nothing you can do. Even if you spec every AA on the ship he is gonna have at least 1 attack. (A unicum can get more even if you are full AA specced!) He has basically endless number of planes which can travel to endless distances and can attack endless times meanwhile you are running out of consumables which could help you defend. Also that he has very fast planes he can change flanks and can attack any part of the map anytime during the game. Are you trying to run away? Hide? Not possible.

 

These CVs can also easily delete destroyers and move on to the next pray. You could say this has always been true but here is the truth: IN the RTS era if a CV attacked a DD he was losing damage capabilities and planes and time. Because the DD knew if the CV was busy with him he could actually help his team to win because the CV wasted a lot of effort on killing the DD. Nowadays this time is not wasted as the CV can drop the DD on his way as he has several chances to drop. The CV cannot lose anything only win.

 

Also if you try to attack a CV in any ship the CV has the high ground. You have to get to him meanwhile you cannot shoot him but he can attack you continously. And the closer you are to the CV and more frequently he can attack you.

 

In a CV you can play bad but you start from the better position ALWAYS. It is like he would play futball against a one legged man. No matter how good that dude is he will have to work waaaaaay harder to have a chance meanwhile CV can just kick him in the leg and walk in with the ball.

[lossi_2018]

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

1.  with 1000+ matches the bad luck factor has an effect close to zero, just basic statistics 

No it is not. The bad luck factor remains, to extrapolate a constant you need more than one parameter to have judgement for an 100% outcome. One (the player) is an urban myth when many other factors are never same.

The other factors are determined by luck and MM.

While your performance weights in for positive or negative results it cannot determine the result to that absolute degree. It is bragging rights. And CV is not all powerful, but it is the most powerful ship in game, is there a unicum here with over 80% percent winning? 90% or even a 100%.

If there is in sufficient numbers then you're right (not you, those that preach this falsehood) and it does determine WR in absolute numbers.

Since there isn't and even best captains can't win all the time based on their performance but slowly drift lower, then it means other factors prevent the outcome. You can't carry everything and there's a reason for that.

Still this subject has legs and once in a month I like to answer since I'm a known fool :)

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 10 minutami Bratoev řekl/a:

The CV hate is mostly hypocrisy.

 

The red CV? He is the devil. A force of nature against which there is no counterplay. He and his planes took me behind that island and did things...

 

The green CV? He is a cool dude that spots for me and helps kill the enemy DD. What a swell guy he is.

Exactly my thoughts ... right now i had a game with Midway (for a change, as currently I am working on improving my gameplay with Hind) and guy at opposing team (we were losing at that time) was like "[edited]CV ... it does 80% of teams dmg ... well done Wargaming ... unable to balance the game ... bla bla bla" ... while my dmg counter was showing 26k dmg at that time, which is not nearly enough to sink single ship (apart from dd ... which i did not) ... so, to me looks more like one-sided hysteria ...

 

Před 12 minutami Humorpalanta řekl/a:

1/ Because right now CV can attack you almost every 30 seconds.

2/ You have to get to him meanwhile you cannot shoot him but he can attack you continously. And the closer you are to the CV and more frequently he can attack you.
3/ He has basically endless number of planes  which can travel to  endless distances and can attack endless times

1/ Isnt that the very same thing that other ships can do as well?

2/ Yes, but while you are close, your AA is already dmging its planes as soon as they lift off the deck and it takes time to position them in proper attack run ... ergo receiving more punishment from your AA

3/ Sorry but no, it has not unlimited number of planes, in higher tiers you can lose them quite quickly and it takes one minute to replenish one plane ... also as for the endless distance ... the map are max roughly 50*50km ... that is nothing for planes ... it like playing football in a hallway.

Also not sure why some people are saying that AA is weak ... it happened to me multiple times that my squadron was anihilated within an instant I got to the AA range

PS: I am not trying to advocate CV, nor I am agains them ... I just dont see  valid reason for why people hate them ... both teams get harrased by them in the same way ...

[lossi_2018]

35 minutes ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

imagine me with steam blowing out of my ears

I'm so mad when I miss a dd, I usually attack something slow moving to calm down and den come back buzzing furiously on the little devils :D

[lossi_2018]

3 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

 Any player beyond 55% is one you can Generally rely on. It's as simple as this. Especially since this wr implies a great deal of game knowledge.  

This I agree. Very level headed opinion +1 :)

[Bratoev]

I did suggest in another thread to make AA manually controllable so you can focus flak on a single sector. Or alternatively make AA massively more damaging at the cost of locking your main guns from firing for the duration of the priority sector.

 

On the flip side carriers should be able to launch their enitre deck reserve armed as they choose. The cost. Spending time reloading to a different weapon.

 

It will make both sides more interesting to play.

[lossi_2018]

2 minutes ago, Bratoev said:

o launch their enitre deck reserve armed as they choose

Yes.

 

Do it WG.

[Verblonde]

4 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Isnt that the very same thing that other ships can do as well?

Not really; in general, a 'not-CV' has to be exposed to danger, to a greater or lesser extent, to do meaningful damage, while CVs don't really - unless their team messes up badly. The CV's planes which can be destroyed are semi-akin to other ships' shells/torps.

 

8 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Yes, but while you are close, your AA is already dmging its planes as soon as they lift off the deck and it takes time to position them in proper attack run ... ergo receiving more punishment from your AA

Only if you get insanely close - longer range AA is usually of the order of 6 km (+/-); if you get that close to a CV that CV or his team messed up badly.

 

9 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Sorry but no, it has not unlimited number of planes

CVs do have unlimited planes *but* how important this is depends a lot on how good the CV player is and how long the game lasts, not to mention what the opposing team does with any windows where the CV is having to regenerate planes (good CV players will keep the windows to the absolute minimum, or non-existent).

 

5 hours ago, Pan_Kalich said:

why the almost general loathing of CVs?

They dumb down the game and make the clever use of vision/manoeuvre much less important; there are other reasons, but that's the key one for me. That said I don't loath CVs; I just wish the ship-plane interaction was better balanced - if it were, they would be an interesting addition to the game for both surface ships and their own players.

 

[Flock_Undead]

I dont think that the bad luck factor ends either.

 

I like to use myself as an example (since i really dont like to bash others when it comes to statistics *wink*)

 

[Verblonde]

5 hours ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Why are people so obsessed with WR statistics in this game?

Depends on the person; anyone who is *obsessed* needs to get out more and meet some girls/boys (delete as applicable), lockdowns permitting.

 

That said, it's a very useful indicator of how good a player is over a large enough data-set, and is especially useful - in conjunction with other metrics - when doing self-evaluation. The large data set matters as the bulk of games are won/lost almost regardless of your personal actions (kind of), but a better player is more likely to result in a win in the 'edge' cases, whereas a less good player will have the opposite effect.

[lossi_2018]

1 minute ago, Verblonde said:

The large data set matters as the bulk of games are won/lost almost regardless of your personal actions (kind of), but a better player is more likely to result in a win in the 'edge' cases, whereas a less good player will have the opposite effect.

Another great summary, you habitually write good posts

[Verblonde]

Just now, lossi_2018 said:

Another great summary, you habitually write good posts

Thank you - you're far too kind!

 

[MadBadDave]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Show me ONE such player, just ONE!

So no one improves or learns then, it’s funny that my WR was below 46%, and my PR was equally worse, mainly because in those days I was trying to provide smoke for friendly BBs when I should have used it for my cruiser (notably Fiji), with time and improved knowledge of the game my WR and PR have both gone up (over 50%).

 

Easy to resolve; pick a noob see their stats now and in 6 months, they will improve.  Now get a veteran player start a new account; stats at start ?.

 

Sadly like myself and a lot (not all), other mere mortals stats start low, WR is not a true reflection of a players ability, MM,Capt skills and RNG aren’t even considered to begin with, I played 6 games last night all were T10. 4 (mid tier) I did very well in (top 3), and the “TEAM” lost, 2 (all T10) games I played poorly in, and the team won, now what does that say about an Individual’s performance, especially when we’re in the climate of poor MM, OP CV’s, RNG and numerous players who haven’t got a clue ?.
 

I assume most reading this will have a lot of 19 pointers the average noob has what point capt ?.     

 

Thats why my stats are off and the profile private, so I can concentrate on playing a game rather a spreadsheet, I know when I play well and I also know when I should go back to T2.