How would you buff the destroyers?

[affie]

After some discussion with @_Teob_ in another thread where we came to the conclusion that Daring and Kleber are the current yardstick of the T10 destroyers. I wonder how would you guys buff the rest to match these two, smoke, heal, rate of fire in wither guns or torpedoes? 

 

The first thing I would like to do is reverse the nerfs to the Pan-Asian destroyers and make them "USN with deep water torpedoes & RADAR". 

 

My second choice would be to make all dual purpose guns have 360 degrees rotation, if Nürnberg can have it so can a destroyer. 

 

As for the specific destroyers I would like to hear your wishes, what buff for which destroyer to make it a competitor to Daring for top spot of T10 DDs? 

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

YY nerfs? They only increased the reload tine of her main guns right? After that she got a radar buff and torpedo reload buff. 
Still love her.
 

I would have removed the BB AP shell pen damage for both the Harugumo and Khabarovsk. Perhaps nerf Harugumo a bit by lowering the hp pool in that case.

[ColonelPete]

Not all DD need to be exactly equal and would be hard to do.

At the moment it looks like this:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200411/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

 

It looks like only Z and Gearing need improvements. I would be careful with Haragumo, since she performed very strong recently.

Depending on detailed stats, one could argue that Daring needs to be toned down more, but I suggest to wait longer.

 

For Z a reload improvement of the guns should help.

Gearing could either use shorter reload on the guns or a mobility improvement.

[Lootboxer]

Daring does well also because of smoke effective against CVs. I would buff AA for all. Like 2x better for most. Put gearing lower in the water - as yy is. Buff guns reload and a bit of a torp damage on Z. Shima needs lower detection on torpedoes? Kaba needs more range maybe?  

[MadBadDave]

How to buff ALL DDs ?.  Nerf all radar to 7KM.   Balancing Radar vs Concealment.

 

Eg if you have a lightning with 5.5km concealment and only 8km Torps in a cv game, how the hell are you supposed to get near a 10km+ radar ship ????.

 

Reducing plane spotting range of DDs Would also be a major buff to ALL DDs. 

[Donar79]

Vor 1 Stunde, affie sagte:

My second choice would be to make all dual purpose guns have 360 degrees rotation, if Nürnberg can have it so can a destroyer.

You should say "If a very heavy RU Cruiser can do it most of the other ships should do it too." Some DDs just don't need it since their turrets are so fast. For all slow turrets it would be nice indeed.

 

But a general and easy buff would be crushuing CVs.

[_Teob_]

One thing to keep in mind is that buffs should always be done before nerfs because if you buff some ships it will naturally hamper the performance of others.

 

I maintain that currently only Daring, Kleber and Halland are good at their intended roles. This is due to various reasons but I would struggle to replace any of them with any other ship. 

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, affie said:

After some discussion with @_Teob_ in another thread where we came to the conclusion that Daring and Kleber are the current yardstick of the T10 destroyers. I wonder how would you guys buff the rest to match these two, smoke, heal, rate of fire in wither guns or torpedoes? 

 

The first thing I would like to do is reverse the nerfs to the Pan-Asian destroyers and make them "USN with deep water torpedoes & RADAR". 

 

My second choice would be to make all dual purpose guns have 360 degrees rotation, if Nürnberg can have it so can a destroyer. 

 

As for the specific destroyers I would like to hear your wishes, what buff for which destroyer to make it a competitor to Daring for top spot of T10 DDs? 

 

 

I would Nerf Daring Smoke Cooldown and Kleber Gun DPS to make them more in line with other DDs and thus Fix the Problem they are causing by being Overpowered.

 

DDs are still the most Powerful Class after CV. And really dont need to be Buffed.

[Ouzo11]

I would give +70% dispersion from anything fired towards you from a cv plane but thats pretty much it

[Hirohito]

22 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

DDs are still the most Powerful Class after CV. 

I disagree with this.
I started out as a CV main (before I got bored from the whole "hunt and spot DDs only, if you wanna drop torps on BBs instead be prepared to lose a lot of planes and possibly the game since you hunted the wrong ship class").

I struggled a lot more to influence the game in a CV, as the amount of influence you can exert is only high if you can spot the DDs early (not always the case), get your teammates to fire on them (outside your control), or otherwise get some lucky high-damage rocket strikes in where most of the rockets hit the target (RNG).

I'm not saying CVs aren't influential, but I do disagree that they are as influential as they are made out to be.
They are only indirectly influential because they can counter the real influential class, the DD.

I recently started playing DDs however, and my winrate is just ridiculously high, even with little experience in the class.
As long as I focus on caps and don't suicide rush, manage to gun down enemy DDs when feasible (and surviving of course), my DDs can exert an enormous amount of influence on the game.
I don't even need to do high average damage, as long as the caps are secured and the enemy DDs are disposed of.
It's not even that hard to do, compared to how hard I find it is to play CVs atm.

DDs are absolutely my favourite class at the moment, but the influence and thus win rate I'm maintaining is starting to get silly, really.

No other class is even remotely close to how I can influence the game in a DD.

[pudelosha]

I would give 1/4 HE pen to Z-52, slightly buff Gearing hp pool.

[_Teob_]

9 hours ago, Hirohito said:

I disagree with this.
I started out as a CV main (before I got bored from the whole "hunt and spot DDs only, if you wanna drop torps on BBs instead be prepared to lose a lot of planes and possibly the game since you hunted the wrong ship class").

I struggled a lot more to influence the game in a CV, as the amount of influence you can exert is only high if you can spot the DDs early (not always the case), get your teammates to fire on them (outside your control), or otherwise get some lucky high-damage rocket strikes in where most of the rockets hit the target (RNG).

I'm not saying CVs aren't influential, but I do disagree that they are as influential as they are made out to be.
They are only indirectly influential because they can counter the real influential class, the DD.

I recently started playing DDs however, and my winrate is just ridiculously high, even with little experience in the class.
As long as I focus on caps and don't suicide rush, manage to gun down enemy DDs when feasible (and surviving of course), my DDs can exert an enormous amount of influence on the game.
I don't even need to do high average damage, as long as the caps are secured and the enemy DDs are disposed of.
It's not even that hard to do, compared to how hard I find it is to play CVs atm.

DDs are absolutely my favourite class at the moment, but the influence and thus win rate I'm maintaining is starting to get silly, really.

No other class is even remotely close to how I can influence the game in a DD.

 

It's very lopsided. Lower tier DDs are very very powerful and always have been because there's no radar and CVs don't have very high strike capabilities while higher tier DDs get much more difficult.

 

At any rate, overall statistics are much more relevant than individual experience. I do OK in DDs but that doesn't mean that I can't tell that the Z52 is not doing great. I mean, overall it has a sub 40k dmg per match. At t10. That's insane.

[thisismalacoda]

Am 16.4.2020 um 11:33, _Teob_ sagte:

One thing to keep in mind is that buffs should always be done before nerfs because if you buff some ships it will naturally hamper the performance of others.

Absolutely not. That's how you create powercreep.

 

 

And as for Daring, the linked WR numbers do not include matches with her latest reload nerf. So let's simply wait where patched Daring, Smalland and Marceau end up.

[Hirohito]

55 minutes ago, _Teob_ said:

At any rate, overall statistics are much more relevant than individual experience. I do OK in DDs but that doesn't mean that I can't tell that the Z52 is not doing great. I mean, overall it has a sub 40k dmg per match. At t10. That's insane.

Depends though, the 40k damage doesn't tell much on it's own (though that's not me arguing arguing that Z-52 in general might not have issues)
In my DDs for instance I have pretty atrocious average damage.

On the flip side, my win rate is very high, as I focus on contesting caps mainly, and the little damage that I do is usually from gunning down other DDs and from there on being able to further spot and cap uncontested.
This is usually very influential, even though the average damage is atrocious by itself.

[martin035]

Yeah, think Pan Asian DDs should now get smoke & radar but wouldn't change their DPS as that would make it to OP

 

The new Euro DDs just need a minor buff to their torpedo damage as it's quite lame at the mo, mind you shredding T10 planes in a DD is very amusing 

 

And maybe buff the range of the Khabba torpedoes 

[Pegasus2022]

I'd nerf the Pan EU ones, especially their AA, they make all the other DD's obsolete and are basically one man bands with no  true counter.

[_Teob_]

9 hours ago, Pegasus2022 said:

I'd nerf the Pan EU ones, especially their AA, they make all the other DD's obsolete and are basically one man bands with no  true counter.

 

The PAN EU DDs are countered by pretty much any other DD due to not having smoke and being slow. Once you've been spotted, you cannot get away most of the time and if you fire your guns, the DD spotting you can usually just smoke and farm you as long as you're spotted by friendly ships.

They are better against CVs than the other DDs due to having meaningful AA. But again, that just means that you will be able to shoot down some planes usually after you've been dropped.

The Halland is pretty good against t8 CVs though, I'll give it that much.

[Odo_Toothless]

Globally nerf % od DMG done to DD by attack aircraft and bombers - from ex. 1/3 to 1/5,  The same as AP was nerfed to overpentrations.

[affie]

On 4/16/2020 at 11:33 AM, _Teob_ said:

I maintain that currently only Daring, Kleber and Halland are good at their intended roles. This is due to various reasons but I would struggle to replace any of them with any other ship

I would like to add Grozovoi to that pack as the jack-of-all-trades with its gimmicks and ability to adapt to almost any situation which shows up. 

 

11 hours ago, Pegasus2022 said:

I'd nerf the Pan EU ones, especially their AA, they make all the other DD's obsolete and are basically one man bands with no  true counter.

Why, European DDs are the best thing happening DD-wise since the CV rework made me stop playing IJN torpedoboats totally! Finally we have a line of destroyers which can bite back against the CVs, and bite back they do. But the sluggish manoeuvres, slow speed, lack of means for disengagement are a heavy price. They do just like the French have quite a high skill ceiling and require a special play style to preform at their maximum. 

 

 

Looking at the stats for EU server during Q1 2020 the 2 lines which seems to be most in need of a buff are the Germans and the USN where Z-52 and Gearing are the bottom preformers. Looking at these nations top scorers though (excluding steel ships), i.e T-61 and Kidd. 

 

With the T-61 having same DPM at T6 as the tech tree T8 shows us that all the German ships might need is a reload buff, both to their guns and torpedoes and they will start climb the scoreboard. 

 

The Kidd on the other hand is having access to a heal, this might just be what will make a Gearing competitive, maybe even comparable with the Daring. The question is how much the heals will buff it, maybe a slight increase in HP will do the trick? 

[_Teob_]

I am not 100% sure on the numbers but the Gearing sort of lost some of its tankiness with the IFHE rework because its 21mm side plating now only works against Daring and Jutland, right?

Everyone else can pen 21mm now as far as I know.

Can someone double-check in case I am totally wrong, please?

 

I love the idea of heal on the Gearing.

[affie]

12 hours ago, _Teob_ said:

its 21mm side plating now only works against Daring and Jutland, right?

This is sort of correct, with the addition of all European destroyers like Friesland, Halland & Småland to the Royal Navy ones. 

 

Seems like the breakpoint will be around 125 mm shells and since the jump is from 120 mm to 127 mm all destroyers except those mentioned above can now penetrate her side plating with ease. 

[LOZFFVII]

On 4/16/2020 at 8:57 AM, ColonelPete said:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200411/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

Is it me, or is there a DD missing from that list?

[_Teob_]

In the interest of fairness, below is my performance in the Gearing over the past 2-3 weeks. I decided to test it 

All the games below were played solo so stats aren't even inflated by divs.

The only thing I will say is that the damage is like 20-25k lower than what I would have done with the Daring.

 

 

I hadn't played it in quite a long time but it felt OK. I didn't feel like I needed massive changes to be able to perform even better. I would have loved a heal but that's about it.

 

Mind you, my opponents were often in panEU DDs and the Gearing eats those alive because of the higher DPM and the fact that they cannot pen the side plates. I had a much rougher time when playing against the other DDs. Although the Gearing is surprisingly effective vs the Daring for the same reasons as the panEU.

 

In the Daring I would have done around 20-30k more dmg per match but I doubt my WR would have been much higher.

 

I am not sure if that just means that people don't know how to play it or if it actually is worse than all the other DDs.

[Hugh_Ruka]

Grozovoi: some agility would be nice. getting that thing to move with accel module and speed boost still takes too much time. turning circle and rudder are fine, but changing speed is abysmal, especially when you need to do even a minimal turn while accelerating ... that thing bleeds speed like crazy while turning. The ship also suffers a consumable overload. DFAA is totally useless now, I don't even carry a premium one these days. I'd gladly sacrifice that one for either one more heal or smoke.

 

Z-52 needs something to distinguish it from Z-46. no clue what ... maybe 2x5 instead of 2x4 torps ? or a bit more HP ...

 

Khaba could do with either a range increase so it can match Tashkent when equiped with legendary or a slight rudder buff. atm I ma running with accel mod in slot 4 and rudder mod in slot 5 and the ship handling feels ok. sacrificing the slot 5 rudder module however makes the ship unusable without legendary, it is too slow to react to anything (torpedoes or any cruiser fire other than USN heavy and maybe Hindy).

 

can't comment on the remaining DDs.

[Hugh_Ruka]

On 4/27/2020 at 4:08 AM, LOZFFVII said:

Is it me, or is there a DD missing from that list?

Nobody cares about Shima ...