Large scale rework of CV related skills/upgrades/mechanics

[El2aZeR]

Lets face it, there are CV related things out there that are completely worthless (*cough* AA skills *cough*). This post aims to give ideas as to what can be done with them.

 

First up, some existing mechanics changes:

Spoiler

Priority sector

- removal of instant damage

Before you hang me for this, keep in mind that I intend to buff other stuff related to AA quite significantly, as such this will likely not be missed. The reason why I would remove this is because, lets be real here, it is a terrible mechanic. Planes just get slapped for damage via push of a single button. Even the one-sided CV play nowadays is more interactive than this.

It would also be kinda broken, albeit funny, with the DFAA change below.

 

Catapult fighter

- reduce amount of fighters to 2x across the board

- reduce active time by half for BBs

This is to make BBs more attractive targets. For that alone this will likely never be considered, but whatever.

 

Defensive AA Fire

- in addition to current effects, reduces cooldown and preparation time of priority sector to 0 when active

About the most worthless consumable out there right now, this in addition to some of the changes below should make DFAA hopefully worthwhile again

 

Skill changes:

Spoiler

Adrenaline Rush

- Option 1: Decrease aircraft regeneration time for its type by 0.5% for each plane missing once corresponding plane type reserves fall below 60%.

- Option 2: 1% faster aiming speed per plane missing in squad

- Option 3: 2% higher maneuverability per plane missing in squad, 25% faster attack prep time and cooldown when squad strength falls below 40%

Practically worthless for CVs since 0.8.5, the proposed changes aim to make it viable again. Idea is important here, values can be tweaked. Option 3 does not aim to make slingshot more viable again and the values have been chosen accordingly.

 

Basic Firing Training

- DPS bonus is increased from 10% to 15%

 

Advanced Firing Training

- in addition to buffing flak damage by 15%, also increases the Maximum Reinforcement of Priority Sector by 25%, reduces weakened sector by 25%

 

Massive AA Fire

- name changed back to "Manual AA"

- current effects are removed

- new effect: Allows for permanent allocation of Priority Sector

- Preparation time removed, cooldown between switching sides is 10 seconds

- Reinforced and weakened sectors remain active until side is changed, no transitional preparation

- provides an additional 15% bonus to Maximum Reinforcement, however also reduces weakened sector by 15%

- sector can be returned to neutral by tapping the corresponding key twice, same cooldown applies

This basically emulates the previous Sector Reinforcement mechanic that we had at the beginning of the rework. With this skilled captains with good timing will be able to keep squadrons permanently in the reinforced sector. Mismanage it however and you'll gimp your AA.

 

Sight Stabilization

- TB accuracy bonus increased from 7.5% to 10%

Makes this skill more attractive for TB heavy CVs such as the entire RN tech tree.

 

Upgrade changes:

Spoiler

AA Guns Modification 1

- in addition to reducing sector cd by 20%, also increases Maximum Reinforcement by 10%, does NOT reduce weakened sector

 

Torpedo Bombers Modification 1

- current effect of 5 extra seconds attack time removed

- new effect: 2% faster aiming speed, stacks with Sight Stabilization

 

Attack Aircraft Modification 1

- current effect of 2 extra seconds attack time removed

- new effect: 5% higher maneuverability

ALTERNATIVELY

- Attack Aircraft Modification 1 is removed

- Dive Bomber Modification 1 is added

- effect: 

-- Option 1: 2% damage decrease, stacks with Aircraft Armor

-- Option 2: 5% higher maneuverability

-- Option 3: 2% faster aiming speed, stacks with Sight Stabilization

 

Aerial Torpedoes Modification 1

- effect of 2kn higher torpedo speed no longer affects arming distance

 

Damage Control System Modification 2

- removed from CVs

Like really, why is this an option? Other than being a potential noob trap I don't see any reason for it to exist for CVs.

 

Squadron Consumables Modification 1

- in addition to increasing active time of squadron consumables by 50%, also decreases their cds by 20%

- moved to upgrade slot 2

 

Flight Control Modification 2 and Air Groups Modification 2

- unified into a single upgrade, providing both 5% speed and 7.5% HP to aircraft

If surface ships get their all-in-one AA/secondary upgrade then I don't see why CVs shouldn't get one either. If this proves too powerful then nerf the values. Given how much more powerful AA builds become with the changes above however I don't think it'll be much of an issue.

 

Thoughts?

[159Hunter]

I'm a pretty lazy guy, any chance of adding a comparison current AA - your AA proposal for an "AA" cruiser?

[Sunleader]

Its better than the current Variant for sure.

But I also dont think it would help too much.

 

CV Gameplay would still be Stale. And Wargaming has obviously no Intention of Allowing the Possibility of a Squadron being Denied Strikes entirely.

So even if WG added this. They would likely Balance stuff around to make sure that you still end up with the same current situation of CVs being Capable of Ignoring AA.

 

 

 

But why not gather some Ideas. So I.ll add my own Idea to this.

I still think the two most Importand thing we should do. Would be to give CVs the same Limitations other Classes have and thus Force them to make actual Decisions.

 

1.

Max Flight Time for Squadrons. And thus effectively a Max Range of Flight.

This should also Include Engine Boost Depleting that Fuel Faster.

Attack Aircraft should have fairly Low Fuel Timers. For example. The Fuel Timer could Equal the Cruise Speed Time for  30km. Meaning that if the CV wants to Attack a Destroyer at 28km Range. He would not only have to Fly at Cruise Speed. But would also only get one Attack Off before his Planes Return due to lack of Fuel.

Dive Bombers would be Medium Range. Having enough Fuel to cover about 50km of Flight. Which means that if they want to Attack an Target Effectively. It has to be within about 45km so they have enough Time to make a Second Attack Run and eventually Adjust Attack Angle.

Torpedo Bombers having the Longest Range. Maybe about 80km. They are the things that can actually be Dodged to some Degree. Meaning they should be the thing the CV is allowed to use at Higher Ranges.

 

 

This in itself would already Drastically Change CV Gameplay and make then far less Overpowered. Because it would have 2 Effects.

A. The CV if he wants to Hunt DDs has to be within Range. So he has to move with the Fleet to Protect said Fleet. Or has to Position more Forward to Cover the Capture Points for example.  And Searching for a DD would be Difficult. Because it would take Fuel and Potentiall prevent a Strike or reduce the number of Strikes you can do if you dont Find him immediately.

B. The CV gets a Range Limit like all other Ships. He can no longer just completely Negate any and all Strategical Movements of the Enemy Fleet. He cannot Reset the Base from the opposite side of the Map when the Team abandoned that Base. And he also cannot just send some Rockets to Kill a DD that Disengaged and Ran away for now.

CVs would therefore be far more Inclined to Attack Battleships as their Rockets are only Available at Close Range. And they would have far less Options to Deny Destroyers from having Influence.

 

 

2.

Planes and Losses need to have more Severe Consequences.

Right now the Biggest Problem with CVs is. That Planes are more a Type of Ammunition rather than the CVs Livestatus.

Wasting a Plane Squadron is effectively the same as Wasting a Torpedo Salvo on a DD.

But while the DD cant use most of his Power unless he gets Close and into a Range where he is at Danger. The CV can currently just use his Full Power at any Range he wants.

And where a Single Mistake can get a DD Killed instantly. (Or also a Cruiser or BB in that regard) the CV as he mostly only Controls his Planes and has his CV never in any Real Danger. Only uses up some of his Expendable Ammo.

 

I often lose a Hundred Planes in a Match. But dont really care. Because to me this is the same as Reading I Fired 300 Shells with a BB.

Yeah who cares.

The Difference is. As a BB or DD the Shells/Torpedoes dont Return. A Shimakaze with Standard Upgrades has about 10x15 Torps each Match if that Match Lasts the Full 20 Minutes.

No matter if they Hit someone or just Idle in the Water. It never has more than that. And that assumes all Torpedoes are Fired Instantly. If you dont fire them you dont get any Extra either. You cant Spare them. Nothing.

 

If you imagine this as a CV. You effectively would Instantly lose any Aircraft that Started from your CV. No matter if that Aircraft did anything or just got Shot Down.

 

But Wargaming will never allow a Situation again where the CV is just Empty and sitting there for the remaining Match.

 

So honestly said. Thats how it should be Handled.

Instead of the currently overly Complicated system with Aircraft Regeneration and Returning Aircraft instantly being ready to Fly again.

The Carrier should get Aircraft Squadrons at Set Intervals. Just like a DD Relaods Torpedoes. The CV should Reload Plane Squadrons.

 

We effectively Assume the Aircraft Carrier Started Preparing Squadrons before the Battle even Started. And so the Aircraft Squadrons become Ready over Time of the Match.

Each CV gets 3 Full Squadrons at the Start. (1 of each Type) And once an Aircraft has Started. It is gone from the CV. It will not be Ready again this Match. It doesnt matter if the Player Presses F or Drops all Load of the Squadron or gets it Shotdown. Once its off the Carrier. Just like a DDs Torpedoes. it will be Gone and has to Wait for the Reload.

However. As soon as the Squadron is Started. The Squadron Starts a Timer to be Reloaded. This Time will be Different for each Squadron of Course.

Rockets will be Reloaded Fairly Fast after maybe 3 Minutes once used.

Torpedoes will take the Longest. Maybe 6 Minutes once used. DBs being a bit between. (Of course Different CVs would get Different Timers)

 

Paired with the Range Limitations Above. This means that the CV has to make Decisions on what Squads he will use. Because over the Match he gets at best 4 Torpedo Squadrons out. Assuming he never uses the other Squadrons at all.

Likeweise however. If he uses different Squadrons for a Specific Purpose he might get less uses out of his Strong Damage Squadron etc.

 

 

This would have 5 Effects on the Gameplay.

A. CVs would never face the Problem of Running out of Planes. So AA can be Buffed somewhat to Compensate for that Fact and taking increased losses wont be a big Issue for the CV.

B. The main Purpose of AA. Would move away from costing the CV Planes for Lategame. And would move more towards Actively Limiting the Damage the CV can do with 1 Specific Squadron.

Squad Shortening as well as Slingshot would be Instantly Useless. Because you would get no Benefit of it. Since the Target of AA would be to Kill the Squadron as fast as possible before it can do more Drops.

C. The CV would be the exact opposite. He would no longer Conserve Planes and try to waste as little as possible planes. But instead would now be looking to make as much as Possible out of that Squadron.

As he cannot use Squad Shortening and Slingshot to avoid Damage to the Planes so he can just use them later again. He will have to actively make the Decision if Spending 3 whole Wings to do one Drop on a Blob is worth it. Or if it would be better to instead get 2-3 Drops out of that Wing against an more Isolated Target.

D. Due to Range Limitation above. This would also mean. That not using certain Squadrons at all unless your in a Good Position to do it. Starts making sense. The CV can no longer just Ignore his own Position in the Equation. His own Position becomes Increasingly Importand for his Actions. And just like a DD. If he wants to get the most Hits out of one Reload. He has to Position himself accordingly and Potentially take the Risk of being Detected and Killed.

E. And Finally. Fighters would Instantly make Sense. Because the Squadrons have Limited Fuel and are gone if you Recall them. So a Fighter Placed Right. means that 1 Minute of your Fuel is gone if you wait for it to Dissappear. However Flying through it and taking the losses means that the Damage Potential of that Squadron is Heavily Reduced Instantly.

 

 

 

 

But that would be mostly my Personal Take.

Honestly said. At the current Time I would be Glad if Wargaming made any Moves at all to Improve this.

 

[Sunleader]

11 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

I'm a pretty lazy guy, any chance of adding a comparison current AA - your AA proposal for an "AA" cruiser?

 

I would Judge it around this:

 

No Change to Unmodded Ships AA.

About 15-25% better AA when using different Modules and Skills that dont come at a Cost.

Up to 50% better AA if you use Manual AA Skill Correctly. (but at the risk of losing alot of AA Damage if you dont use it Correctly)

 

CVs get about 5% more HP to their Squadrons and slightly Improved Aiming to their Squadrons. Also they get an Improved Aircraft Regeneration if they Depleted a Squadron below a certain Threshold.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 23 Minuten, 159Hunter sagte:

I'm a pretty lazy guy, any chance of adding a comparison current AA - your AA proposal for an "AA" cruiser?

A Lancer frigate would do the job. 

[loppantorkel]

I can't tell how this would change things, but it's obvious the current system needs further balancing. The proposed changes seem good.

 

The main thing I want to add is that they slash the 'planes spotted alert' by at least half if it's a dd spotting the planes. This alert is too powerful and beneficial to the cvs atm. Make it a dd feature to be able to spot planes without notifying the cv or just delay the notification until the planes are at a closer distance.

[El2aZeR]

29 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Its better than the current Variant for sure.

But I also dont think it would help too much.

 

I tried making changes that would seem acceptable by WG standards based around current mechanics, otherwise I would've gone much further with the AA values.

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Defensive AA Fire

- in addition to current effects, reduces cooldown and preparation time of priority sector to 0 when active

About the most worthless consumable out there right now, this in addition to some of the changes below should make DFAA hopefully worthwhile again

 

First of all: +1 for posting constructive suggestions.

 

You have a point that about upgrades and perks needing an overhaul for the CV and AA stuff.

 

I also admit I like most of your suggestions at least somewhat (not so much attack prep time on AR but you have multiple options - everyone will find smth).

 

My remark though: I would appreciate if they make Def AA more of a “protect friendlies” thing. I.e. creating a panic thread for plane aiming and potentially focussing on effects in the long range AA are rather than on your own ship. Obviously with the increased attack cycle speed of CVs things like Cooldown and charges need to be reviewed 

[Panocek]

I still think AA acting more like accuracy/aim time debuffer for CV instead plane killer could work, with flak and sector having to say on the matter.

 

Basically, CV against targets with AA disabled (or completely stripped off) would have nigh pinpoint accuracy and quick aim time. AA enabled and at 100% would bring dispersion and aim time roughly in line with current stats. AA overlapping would, with diminishing returns, slow aiming time, even more so with Sector thingy enabled. Flak instead "lol u ded" would act as stun for planes, temporarily stopping aiming on affected planes.

 

Not quite sure what do with DFAA, but I think yeeting that one out and focusing on available for everyone Sector could work

[Yosha_AtaIante]

The AA would lose value without the 10% bft buff but might be put back in line with your sector improvements. 

 

All in all your suggestions however appear to make CV's stronger instead of AA more useful. That's the feeling I get from it after reading through it for the first time. 

[Bratoev]

I would say the whole thing needs some changes. Let look at some history for inspiration.

Priority Sector should be removed and replaced with Man AA Stations or something along those lines.
The catch without it only the enclosed turret AA mounts fire. With it the ships's entire AA suite can fire but the main guns are locked from firing. Remember a lot of mounts couldn't be manned at all in a gunnery duel due to the shockwave of the main battery. It will give you a massive increase in AA but at the cost of the main gun being unable to fire so you have to pick if you want to do one or the other. Say for 20-30 seconds.

On the other side of the spectrum Carriers should be able to choose how to arm their squadrons and launch their entire complement. Look at something like the Audacious. Its all Wyverns so why not choose to launch the entire capacity armed with rockets. The catch that even if you return them without firing a shot you will still need 30 seconds or so to rearm with another weapon..

[Yedwy]

IMO good suggestions

 

My 2c

 

BFT should increase continuous AA much more like at least 20% (or more) we see that basically anything below 500 cont dpm is useless on T10 and most ships cant reach that even with full AA builds...

 

AFT shoud either extend RANGE as it used to or stack with BFT to reward full AA commitment...

 

Surface ships should get new module for slot 5 called something like AA modification 3 that would cut the damage missiles and bombs do by 25-50% flat in a way torp belt does for torps so DDs and CAs can be comaprable in durability vs CVs since they are desired targets due to half or 1/4 hp of a BB even if they have suitable AA values as such

 

In return CV should get more damage reduction to planes via modules with regen or speed tradeoff or even loadout reduction (ie you recieve 50% less cont damage but can only carry half the missiles/bombs or increase the dropiinh elipse signigivantly like 50% radius) also cvs should get to choose plane loadouts ir in the line - big total squads with smaller individual drop groups but faster regen or big kroups with longer regen for instance if you have 12 total you can drop in pairs six times and have plane regen say 70s as its now or you can have six planes drop two times but have say 100s regen and slower return times

[Panocek]

37 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

AFT shoud either extend RANGE as it used to or stack with BFT to reward full AA commitment...

Range OR +2 (more?) flak bursts OR faster flak reload to make evasion more difficult

[Bratoev]

Perhaps a return of Manual AA, but allowing it to focus all the flak bursts in a single sector instead of spreading them across all 3. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

Range OR +2 (more?) flak bursts OR faster flak reload to make evasion more difficult

Just make flak spawn randomly and unpredictable around the planes will solve issues. 

Flak is easy to dodge because it can be controlled and predicted. 

[AnotherDuck]

Basically what's needed is that AA ships should be capable of being AA ships again. They shouldn't be good targets.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, AnotherDuck said:

Basically what's needed is that AA ships should be capable of being AA ships again. They shouldn't be good targets.

Only if AA wouldn't be completely automated. Because as patch 0.8.5 has shown, with high enough dps values AFK Minotaur proved to be damn tough AA platform.

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Just make flak spawn randomly and unpredictable around the planes will solve issues. 

Flak is easy to dodge because it can be controlled and predicted. 

Yup. Even if this is only done while using DEF-AA or something. 

Maybe make some skill like "massive AA" and then you get a key to change the pattern. 

 

[CptBarney]

FLak needs to be random however, otherwise +1 for meh.

[Yedwy]

44 minutes ago, AnotherDuck said:

Basically what's needed is that AA ships should be capable of being AA ships again. They shouldn't be good targets.

AA cruisers and dds need incoming damage reduction vs aerial ammo, even if you have IDK something like a Mino with 500-ish cont AA but 40k hp next to a BB with 400 fpm AA but 100k hp its obvious which will be the likely target, let alone a DD with 150 dpn and 20k hp...

 

OFC implementing air orfnance damage reduction would call for a nerf elswhere thats why it should go to slot 5 for starts (you give up concealment or rudder) possibly even have more tradeoffs like worse handling, additonal fire chance or whatnot

[1MajorKoenig]

58 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Just make flak spawn randomly and unpredictable around the planes will solve issues. 

Flak is easy to dodge because it can be controlled and predicted. 

 

If it’s random it can’t be dodged at all. So nope - that is not really an idea 

[Nibenay78]

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

If it’s random it can’t be dodged at all. So nope - that is not really an idea 

Either way, the CV is fighting an flak-generating-algorithm.

 

As long as it's not totally random, it can be figured out (more or less), thus those to get it will mostly ignore flak, while those who don't will get annihilated. In both cases the defending player's skill is irrelevant.

And as you say, if it's totally random, the attacking player's skill is also irrelevant! 

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, Nibenay78 said:

Either way, the CV is fighting an flag-generating-algorith. As long as it's not totally random, it can be figured out (more or less), thus those to get it will mostly ignore it while those who don't will get annihilated. In both cases the defending player's skill is irrelevant.

And as you say, if it's totally random, the attacking player's skill is also irrelevant! 

 

If you make it random it can’t be avoided unless it spawns in a distance that the player can react to it. So you end up in the same situation - good players dodge the Flak which is - frankly - the basic concept of these clouds. On the grand scale this works but in an individual battle you can encounter a good CV which mitigates most of the Flak damage. 

 

You won’t solve the AI-vs-Skill problem by randomizing cloud spawn 

[GulvkluderGuld]

+1 for making the effort.

 

An increase in AA effectiveness is called for. 

The suggestions are a step in the right direction, although I'm left wondering how much time it will take to switch sectors. Also, exact values will no doubt have to be tweaked.

 

additional suggestions

1. Planes should not have access to the detection symbol. It would make finding DDs harder, and that is called for.

2. DFAA should make aiming near impossible while active and sector activated, thus denying strikes. Remove the damage multiplier and make it about denial. This also makes it work for DDs.

[Nibenay78]

4 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

If you make it random it can’t be avoided unless it spawns in a distance that the player can react to it. So you end up in the same situation - good players dodge the Flak which is - frankly - the basic concept of these clouds. On the grand scale this works but in an individual battle you can encounter a good CV which mitigates most of the Flak damage. 

 

You won’t solve the AI-vs-Skill problem by randomizing cloud spawn 

That's exactly what I tried to say also. Clearly I have to be more precise.

 

My point was that a CV isn't fighting the defending skills of a player, it's a battle against the AI. While I enjoy the visuals of the flak ingame, the mechanics themselves are not very good for a game where the idea is to fight other human beings.