Manual secondaries rework idea

[Furius_Marius]

Hello everybody! 

Probably this topic was already commented. But I really think this captain ability needs a rework. 

Nowadays is only "working" for very few and selected ships. For the rest is just not worth it at all. Especially for mid-tier ships.

Here is my idea:

 

Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament

Tightens dispersion of secondary batteries.

-15% for Tier I ships.

-20% for Tier II Ships

-25% for tier III Ships

-30% for tier IV Ships

-35% for tier V Ships

-45% for tier VI Ships
-55% for tier VII Ships
-60% for Tier VIII-X ships.

BONUS When manually selected target only. Without manual select the secondaries fire without the bonus dispersion.

When manual selected the secondaries that can't shoot at selected target will fire at another possible target without bonus. 

 

What do you think?

[Miragetank90]

Honestly I would just keep the values as it is now, but change it like this:

 

51 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

BONUS When manually selected target only. Without manual select the secondaries fire without the bonus dispersion.

When manual selected the secondaries that can't shoot at selected target will fire at another possible target without bonus. 

 

 

And allow the secondaries to keep firing on both sides instead of one. Basically, shoot the selected target with the bonus accuracy, everything else, including secs on the other side, shoot with standard accuracy. 

[Miscommunication_dept]

So many times I have seen people ask for secondaries that cannot fire onto the targeted ship to continue firing on any other ship that's close.

 

I'm not sure why Wargaming hasn't enabled it, perhaps its difficult to do?

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

So many times I have seen people ask for secondaries that cannot fire onto the targeted ship to continue firing on any other ship that's close.

This is why - even on my manly ships - I almost never take Man Sec; the extra damage rarely makes up for the use of four points to get it (compared to, say, FP)...

[Miscommunication_dept]

Just now, Verblonde said:

This is why - even on my manly ships - I almost never take Man Sec; the extra damage rarely makes up for the use of four points to get it (compared to, say, FP)...

Your ship is not manly if it is not a full secondary build!

 

Do you use the secondary module and AFT without manual secs or do you go tank with German battleships?

[Verblonde]

37 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Your ship is not manly if it is not a full secondary build!

 

Do you use the secondary module and AFT without manual secs or do you go tank with German battleships?

<chuckle> I usually describe them as semi-manly.

 

As it stands, I'm running secondary upgrades in slots 1&3, with main battery in slot 6 of Fat Freddy (most of my games are in Tirpitzes and Scharnhorsts) and this captain:

 

 

I believe the technical term for this build is probably 'idiotic', but it's fun and manly enough for me with BFT/AFT (and upgrades), whilst being almost sufficiently tanky to get away with it (at least for a player of my standard).

 

I actually find the non-manual secondaries to be really useful as a warning that some sneaky DD has got too close without my noticing (usually if I don't have hydro on at that time, or if I'm Tirpitz etc.)...

 

Believe it or not, this set-up worked pretty well in that mental 1v1 Sprint thing we had a while back!

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

I would suggest to reduce the Captain Point requirement for Manual Secs. it's a skill that's useful only in certain circumstances. Put it at 2 points and it'd still be situational...

 

Heh... I would even try out 1 point...

[Panocek]

24 minutes ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

I would suggest to reduce the Captain Point requirement for Manual Secs. it's a skill that's useful only in certain circumstances. Put it at 2 points and it'd still be situational...

 

Heh... I would even try out 1 point...

Or, give additional range with the skill to justify 4 points. So you could let go AFT, or stack both for extra memes

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Or, give additional range with the skill to justify 4 points. So you could let go AFT, or stack both for extra memes

anyway, simply having that precision boost, even if it wouldn't remove auto firing secondaries, isn't really worth 4 points. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

This is why - even on my manly ships - I almost never take Man Sec; the extra damage rarely makes up for the use of four points to get it (compared to, say, FP)...

 

Especially as the secondaries will have limited usability in most situations. Unless you or the opponent is playing very very ... carelessly shall we say.

[Aetius85]

As already told in various topics, totally agree this needs a rework. Accuracy bonus is useless before T7. Also range is ridicolous and needs a buff. A rework as proposed by OP could be interesting, but with the increased precision should give also a bonus on range. In this way gneisenau/sharnhorst could arrive maybe at 10 km with AFT modules and flags and GK to 12 - 12.5, keeping Bismarck to 11.3 as standard.

Also agree to the proposal to keep the secondaries firing automatically without bonus if not selected, and leave the other side firing, without bonus.

 

@Excavatus would be possible to have a sticked topic like this about manual secondaries? It's a quite recurring argument I think.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, Verblonde said:

<chuckle> I usually describe them as semi-manly.

 

As it stands, I'm running secondary upgrades in slots 1&3, with main battery in slot 6 of Fat Freddy (most of my games are in Tirpitzes and Scharnhorsts) and this captain:

 

 

I believe the technical term for this build is probably 'idiotic', but it's fun and manly enough for me with BFT/AFT (and upgrades), whilst being almost sufficiently tanky to get away with it (at least for a player of my standard).

 

I actually find the non-manual secondaries to be really useful as a warning that some sneaky DD has got too close without my noticing (usually if I don't have hydro on at that time, or if I'm Tirpitz etc.)...

 

Believe it or not, this set-up worked pretty well in that mental 1v1 Sprint thing we had a while back!

Personally, for a functional secondary build, I consider Manual secondaries at high tiers more important than AFT or BFT. Especially BFT. BFT is what? 11% more shell output for 3 points? Well, nice, but Manual Secondaries doubles the hitrate (aka doubles effective shell output) for 4 points. AFT meanwhile is a range increase and to me more useful than BFT, but nowhere as important as Manual Secondaries. Because let's be real, on a Bismarck/FdG/GK, do you want secondaries that actually hit a thing at 9.4-9.6 km or do you want to just entertain people with fireworks at 11 km? I run Manual Secondaries + secondary mod on my Bismarck and otherwise a tank build with CE and FP and honestly, I find it very useful, because I might need to get closer, but there isn't much reason to stay in the 9.4-11.3 km zone anyway, either it's safe to go in, or I try to get out. Also, while the range isn't great, DDs that sneak up don't just trigger a warning, they get might just get properly taken care of.

 

Similarly, I don't care if secondaries don't fire out the other side of the ship, because to me there only exist two cases:

• All enemies are to one side of the ship, preferably only one anyway, usually due to some controlled aggression where I'm not in some cross-fire, not just some yolo. In this case, no point in having the other side "active", because nothing to shoot anyway.
• Enemies on both sides, because for whatever reason that happened. Due to potential crossfire and threats from multiple sides, the smartest move isn't to just shoot everyone a little bit, but to focus one target down. So one side firing with double the hitrate and the other not is the more effective approach compared to both sides derping around, as you want the enemy numbers reduced as fast as possible.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 hour ago, Aetius85 said:

As already told in various topics, totally agree this needs a rework. Accuracy bonus is useless before T7. Also range is ridicolous and needs a buff. A rework as proposed by OP could be interesting, but with the increased precision should give also a bonus on range. In this way gneisenau/sharnhorst could arrive maybe at 10 km with AFT modules and flags and GK to 12 - 12.5, keeping Bismarck to 11.3 as standard.

Also agree to the proposal to keep the secondaries firing automatically without bonus if not selected, and leave the other side firing, without bonus.

 

@Excavatus would be possible to have a sticked topic like this about manual secondaries? It's a quite recurring argument I think.

 

The key issue is usability but avoiding making them OP. If the cost is 4 pts then it the bonus has to be significant. On the other hand, if the cost is lowered, it would have to be balanced. One way to do is to handle it like the AA priority sector. It might give something like a 30 second boost to secondaries when and if you choose to activate it manually. If you're secondaries would have started to fire automatically by default, they would alert you and you could then activate the 30 second boost.

[Miragetank90]

24 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Personally, for a functional secondary build, I consider Manual secondaries at high tiers more important than AFT or BFT.

 

This. BFT's 3 points you should put into keeping your BB afloat - survivability. 

AFT is still a must have though imo or there's not much point. So, Manual + AFT is the way to go. 

 

No matter what, at the end of the day having secondaries worth a damn is a heavy investment and requires big sacrifices in terms of skills and modules. 

[Cyclops_]

4 hours ago, Furius_Marius said:

Hello everybody! 

Probably this topic was already commented. But I really think this captain ability needs a rework. 

Nowadays is only "working" for very few and selected ships. For the rest is just not worth it at all. Especially for mid-tier ships.

Here is my idea:

 

Manual Fire Control for Secondary Armament

Tightens dispersion of secondary batteries.

-15% for Tier I ships.

-20% for Tier II Ships

-25% for tier III Ships

-30% for tier IV Ships

-35% for tier V Ships

-45% for tier VI Ships
-55% for tier VII Ships
-60% for Tier VIII-X ships.

BONUS When manually selected target only. Without manual select the secondaries fire without the bonus dispersion.

When manual selected the secondaries that can't shoot at selected target will fire at another possible target without bonus. 

 

What do you think?

Wow, Another suggested Buff for snowflake BB's 

[asalonen]

3 hours ago, Verblonde said:

As it stands, I'm running secondary upgrades in slots 1&3, with main battery in slot 6 of Fat Freddy (most of my games are in Tirpitzes and Scharnhorsts) and this captain:



I'm confident that AFT is wasted in this build at least on Tirpitz. The dispersion to maximum secondary range (11.3 km on Tirpitz?) is so bad that you'll land very few hits.

 

I would switch AFT to something else. In fact, my Kurfürst/Tirpitz build is the same except I have manual secondaries instead of AFT. The range is a bit less than 10 km, but the secondaries are VERY efficient when they start firing. 

 

In general, I've lately been leaning to the direction that maximising secondary range only makes sense with Massachusetts, Georgia and Ohio. Their great secondary dispersion allows them to get reliable hits up to 11 km. 

 

 

[Verblonde]

Thanks all for the feedback - next time there's a free respec, I'll try switching AFT to Manuel Secondaries and see what happens...

[Rautainen_Biisoni]

10 hours ago, Furius_Marius said:

But I really think this captain ability needs a rework. 

Nowadays is only "working" for very few and selected ships. For the rest is just not worth it at all. Especially for mid-tier ships.

This. It needs a heavy rework.

WG needs to look at games and see how many players actually playing secondary ships and how often actually getting to use dem secondary guns.

We sure have seen lots of GK since the buff but they are mostly in non-secondary spec. Their secondary guns don't fire when I go brawl them. GK is played like monty.
 

Secondary builds are way too heavy in cost. You only use secondaries mid-to-late game and getting to secondary range depends on maps and situations so the build is indeed a very specialist one.

You need to spend lots of points and select secondary modules to be able to make the build work and this often only happens for 1-3 minutes per game max. 

The other BB player can spend his points in survivability, concealment and accuracy and make his ship work 100% of every match.

A secondary BB player has to often push all alone since nobody in this game attacks... like ever. He has to wait until smolensk are dead and DDs are not around. He has to watch that other T10 HE burner cruisers aren't kiting around and those camper thunderers aren't sitting 20km range in the rear with their HE spam. 

Its rather ridiculous that the secondary build that is much harder to make to work costs way much more than the easy survivability/stealth build that works every round. 

If WG would actually look at 50 games during one evening and actually count how many secondary players they got they might wake up. Not many around I tell ya. I doubt their spreadsheets show them this.

Secondaries below T8 is a joke so not even gonna go there.

[Rautainen_Biisoni]

5 hours ago, Cyclops_ said:

Wow, Another suggested Buff for snowflake BB's 

I much rather see buffs for BBs that close in and actually take the risk and do the work and nerf the camper BBs sitting at  20km range. Have you ever seen an proper attacking BB that didn't belong to a unicum division? I see a proper BB brawler maybe once a month. The snowflakes indeed are sitting in the rear on both sides. Those you can see every match.

 

Buff those who want to attack and nerf the campers.

This game is so heavily against attacking that the snowflakes move forward from their camper positions only once haven't seen any targets for 5 minutes.

[CptBarney]

6 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

This. BFT's 3 points you should put into keeping your BB afloat - survivability. 

AFT is still a must have though imo or there's not much point. So, Manual + AFT is the way to go. 

 

No matter what, at the end of the day having secondaries worth a damn is a heavy investment and requires big sacrifices in terms of skills and modules. 

I would reduce both aft and bft by one point and maybe even manual secondaries and have those values above and even put in a 10% range boost as well.

at least then agirs, secs get noice boostings while allowing for moar points.

 

Or just rework the entire skill system since its trash and barely customizable.

[Atorpad]

11 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

Honestly I would just keep the values as it is now, but change it like this:

 

 

And allow the secondaries to keep firing on both sides instead of one. Basically, shoot the selected target with the bonus accuracy, everything else, including secs on the other side, shoot with standard accuracy. 

I guess they can't technically implement this !!!

[Cyclops_]

1 hour ago, Rautainen_Biisoni said:

I much rather see buffs for BBs that close in and actually take the risk and do the work and nerf the camper BBs sitting at  20km range. Have you ever seen an proper attacking BB that didn't belong to a unicum division? I see a proper BB brawler maybe once a month. The snowflakes indeed are sitting in the rear on both sides. Those you can see every match.

 

Buff those who want to attack and nerf the campers.

This game is so heavily against attacking that the snowflakes move forward from their camper positions only once haven't seen any targets for 5 minutes.

Only 1 slight problem with that, the poor old DD, they will be B***h Slapped, a lot have 6 to 10k torps, with 10 to 12k gun range?????? how are they supposed to play?

[Aetius85]

2 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said:

Only 1 slight problem with that, the poor old DD, they will be B***h Slapped, a lot have 6 to 10k torps, with 10 to 12k gun range?????? how are they supposed to play?

Well if a dd with 12km gun range is spotted at 12km or is firing without being in smoke/covered by an island or is spotted by radar/hydro or is simply in a bad position...

[Rautainen_Biisoni]

8 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said:

Only 1 slight problem with that, the poor old DD, they will be B***h Slapped, a lot have 6 to 10k torps, with 10 to 12k gun range?????? how are they supposed to play?

They got this thing called stealth which is better than torp range in higher tiers. I sure don't mind if DDs get heals and cruisers also. I haven't been blabbed by secondaries yet as a DD.

DDs cry of joy when BBs are pushing in and they can torp them. I see no problem here. I just never see any BBs or cruisers attacking and that is a problem. 

[Odo_Toothless]

11 minutes ago, Aetius85 said:

Well if a dd with 12km gun range is spotted at 12km or is firing without being in smoke/covered by an island or is spotted by radar/hydro or is simply in a bad position...

I remember a Bismarck game with manual AA, when i had about 0,5 % accuracy (a few hits on 150 shells) on 2 DD, which were spotted from time to time on >10 km. This is often an illusion of doing something to them.