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Shagulon

DD feedback on the differentiation between IJN and US

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[EIRE]
[EIRE]
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So I think the general concept for the design of these two Navy destroyer trees, is that the IJN have long range sniping torpedo gameplay, and the US have short range torps with a great main gun. This approach is not a million miles away from the reality.


 

However, I always think that balancing is a game of fine adjustments and soft counters. At the moment it is very tough to use torps as the US, and if you ever get into a fight with a US Destroyer as IJN DD you're in big trouble.


 

I would propose ever so slightly smoothing the differences between the two. Yes keep the two philosophical differences, they work very well. I think they were just done a bit too severe.


 

If you watch the IJN DDs main gun turn it will just make you laugh.

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Beta Tester
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must admit that IJN gun turn hurts a lot and they don't even have the range to do much with those guns.im currently at tier 6.

I feel we lose a lot to gain that few extra miles on the torps. I always get amazing results with my us dds but mediocre or terrible results with jap dds. of course if its working as intended we will adapt .

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[PRAVD]
Weekend Tester
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They did in Weekend beta, but CBT came and changed everything. 

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Beta Tester
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DD's are too overpowered right now compared to everything else. For one thing, their stealth is way way OP right now.

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[EIRE]
[EIRE]
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Their stealth is really the only thing that keeps them alive. I see you play mostly cruisers so I'm surprised you think DDs are even remotely. OP The only thing OP about them is the new HE round effects, but everyone has that.

 

Torpedos only really catch out the new players, higher tiers everyone knows how to avoid them easily, and the new US battleships turn as easily as cruisers, so there is very little IJN DDs can do beyond the lower levels.

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Beta Tester
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DD's are too overpowered right now compared to everything else. For one thing, their stealth is way way OP right now.

 

No. 

 

Almost all cursiers have spotting planes and carriers planes are all over the place spotting you. 

 

You out think getting to withing 5.5k to unload torps against half decent players is easy? 

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Beta Tester
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clearly all you guys play is DD's then not realizing how a DD at 2-3k from a ship can vanish with no smoke or anything to provide extra stealth. Or the fact they remain invisible in smoke even though they are supposed to appear whenever they fire guns.

 

Yes, I play DD's as well as BB's and cruisers. Right now DD's have too much of an advantage period.

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Beta Tester
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actually, yes I do. and the smoke bit is right from their own description of it. they even say to toggle AA off so you don't magically appear in smoke.

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[EIRE]
[EIRE]
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So far Iothos everyone in this thread disagrees with you. Can you concede the possibility that you may be wrong? I know you play DDs, but not very much, and probably not to a high tier. So really I recommend you play them more and then re-asses. They're pretty tough to play vs decent players at higher tiers. If you play at VI upwards, it is rare to see more than one DD per side.

 

I haven't reached above VII yet, as frankly it becomes very difficult to gain any experience. That's with IJN anyway, I'm finding US a bit easier due to the insane amounts of HE damage that is flying around. However, please do not confuse that balance mistake with how OP DDs are.

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Beta Tester
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I have been playing in my tier 9 dd's on both side for quite some time. and overall there are two things that are the main problem. Firstly it is the ability of a DD to disappear at ranges inside 3k from the target without popping smoke. and the second is a universal issue with torps not being spotted until they are inside 2k. Given the reload time of torps on DD's it does give them a slightly higher advantage in battle vs BB's with reloads of 3-5 times that of the DD torps. Not to mention the miserably abysmal accuracy of BB secondary guns.

 

So, with that said my proposal would be to give cruisers better sight so they can god forbid do their job and screen for BB's.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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Lothos, please find a single DD that have a spotting range of 2-3km. Just open the game and look through all DDs, especially concealment-tab. In case you can't be bothered to do so, there are none. 

 

EDIT: If I remember correctly, the best you can achieve is 5.59km, by stacking commander skill (-10%, if memory serves right) and equipment (-10%). And the equipment is first available at T8

Edited by Vogel

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Lothos, please find a single DD that have a spotting range of 2-3km. Just open the game and look through all DDs, especially concealment-tab. In case you can't be bothered to do so, there are none. 

 

Do you not play anything besides a DD? I don't care about the concealment tab, because I can see it plain as day in battle. Perhaps it is an aspect of lag? It could be simply they do not maintain ship position in the client end when a ship position update fails to process or something.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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Okey, let's start a friendly discussion :). I play mostly DDs, true, but I have also some CA and BBs (many before the Alpha wipe, but not so many afterwards due to Master degree taking alot of time). Now, onto your facts:

 

1. BBs 3-5times the torp reload: False. Yamato has the longest BB reload with around 34 seconds or so. A single torp reload on a IJN DD (the stealthy ones) in that tier are around 1.5 minutes. So it is actually the other way around.

2. THe stats don't lie, as I will be lit up when I am 6.9 km away (spotting range of Fubuki) from an enemy BB. What you perceive is irrelevant, as the facts don't lie.

3. Firing withn smoke WILL get you spotted, unless you are at maximum range (9-11 km), in which case you may or may not be spotted. And you will stay spotted for 20 seconds, unless your smoke generator is still active.

4. BB secondary guns are deadly vs DDs. The only way a DD can approach a BB and survive, is to ambush him when he comes around and island. Sailing straight towards the BB in a DD will in most cases mean your own death, and possible that of the BB if you manage to launch your torps and if he manages not to dodge them. I once killed two DDs simultaneously in my Warspitw by dodginf their torps in close combat and just letting the secondaries rip them apart. Granted, they hadn't full health, but I had the option to use the main armament as well if I wanted to. 

 

And no, DDs are only strong if they can successfully ambush you. Otherwise you should be able to dodge most torpedoes, especially after the truning buff this patch introduced. I don't think the are weak either, but not OP as you would have us believe.

 

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Alpha Tester
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it is an aspect of lag? It could be simply they do not maintain ship position in the client end when a ship position update fails to process or something.

 

Or you was in binocular view which doesn't display the smoke.

 

EDIT: If I remember correctly, the best you can achieve is 5.59km, by stacking commander skill (-10%, if memory serves right) and equipment (-10%). And the equipment is first available at T8

 

As always, Minekaze wins. 5,5km with the captain skill.

 

1. BBs 3-5times the torp reload: False. Yamato has the longest BB reload with around 34 seconds or so. A single torp reload on a IJN DD (the stealthy ones) in that tier are around 1.5 minutes. So it is actually the other way around.

3. Firing withn smoke WILL get you spotted, unless you are at maximum range (9-11 km), in which case you may or may not be spotted. And you will stay spotted for 20 seconds, unless your smoke generator is still active.

 

To be fair:

1) Yamato RPM have been buffed, I thin she have 30 seconds reload now (I'm too lazy to open the client and check it).

2) You can shot without being spotted if there is more than 1 km of smoke, but you need someone to spot for you, since it blocks your LoS too.

Edited by Fominator

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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So why did you clim that DDs can vanish from 2-3km without smoke, and when someone pointed out that you probably were in binocular view you responded negatively to that as well? And Yamato before the patch were around 40 seconds, not 6 minutes as you would have us believe.

 

Source on the 1km of smoke? 

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Beta Tester
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what I perceive is irrelevant? Clearly you need to play BB's more often and see for yourself. DD's vanish constantly inside 5k all the way up to 2.5k give or take.Now sure, I'd blame my crappy internet except its also happening to my division mates that are on 100mb connections.

 

as for secondary guns, they truly only get good after about tier 7. I can literally zigzag my way up in my DD's all the way to about 3k before any lesser BB even manages a single hit on me with secondary guns.

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Alpha Tester
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Source on the 1km of smoke? 

 

Is in one of the hotfixes. Also experience, I always shot when retreating if I can, literally FREE damage (most of the time you can't due to slow turret rotation).

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[-AWF-]
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I enjoyed Japanese destroyers til I hit tier 6. Then the gun fails on me. But the torp range is sweet. I think the reason not to play Japanese has more to do with my playstyle then the balance, yet: more gun power on Japanese destroyers would be appreciated.

The US destroyers are fine imo. (I made it to tier 7) Lots of gunning, I use the torps mainly for ambush and denial of area acces. Mainly denial, so a ship has to make a turn and then I gun him some more.

 

I don't think destroyers are OP. 1 or 2 well aimed shots from a cruiser or battleship and it's over. Torp damage is real, but hard to pull off. The gun damage is very low. I still feel I'm a good team asset when all goes well, but OP, not at all.

Edited by Haamerr

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alright, now that windows update is not ruling my day let me outline the issues since "OP" really is a bad term for the issue here.

 

1. ship detection is affected by something else beyond their listed stats as far as ranges go. regardless of binoc view or not. this is regardless of ship class as well but affected by the classes detection % I am guessing. i've seen cruisers vanish from sight on my bb's at 4-5k ranges for example.

 

2. torp spotting. this actually started becoming an issue 2 patches ago with the detectability of torps going way down. I would say in a bb I am spotting the torps about 60% of the time at ranges beyond 1.5k

 

3. torp arming range. given the drastic nerf to AA especially on BB's the fact that torp bombers can drop within 2.5k of a BB and have their torps arm while the AA doesn't truly start shooting them until the planes are inside of 2k makes it impossible for BB's to defend against torp bombers.

 

4 secondary guns. they need to be re-examined really on the whole.there's a line in the patch notes about secondary armament shooting torps for one and I have never seen this happen. I see them fire into the water 90% of the time when a DD is at 3-4k from me and the reload should be improved ever so slightly.

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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Is in one of the hotfixes. Also experience, I always shot when retreating if I can, literally FREE damage (most of the time you can't due to slow turret rotation).

 

Great, didn't know that. Must try to do so myself, albeit in this scenario I'm mostly very busy trying not to get hit :P

 

 

As for vanishing, it is either an graphical glitch or there is an smokescreen being useded/located nearby. DDs don't just disappear within 5 km. Being chased down by cruisers in a DD and encountering them myself in BBs multiple times ave confirmed this. The only explanation is smokescreen, or an island obscuring your line of sight. 

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[EIRE]
[EIRE]
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Everyone loves a good argument... Anyway, back to the thread topic, this is more about balance between destroyers which I find too heavy in favour of US DDs. They're almost the hard counter IJN DDs. If that is the aim then so be it, I will avoid them and stay closer to CAs.


 

Is anyone having any good results with DDs above tier Vi or VII? If so what is the trick/tactic?


 

And Ioval, as for having tier IX DDs, I've checked your profile and 60 ish games with DDs does not get you there.... You lose credibility with all this BS.

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Beta Tester
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lag does play a big role when DDs disappear right in front of you. that's not the DDs being OP. Its just something the devs will fix in time. Although I find it quite strange that people have such a big problem with DDs... probably some more practice with aiming will make your problems disappear since if in a BB DDs are oneshot kills.in cruisers its a lot easier, you just carpetbomb the DDs path. im no ace but DDs shouldn't be that hard to deal with if you are above mediocre in skill. Anyways its not about being right or wrong its more about sharing ideas and talking about things so stay frosty guys. always keep in mind that this is an mmo and not a sim.

Edited by Aethanos

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[ST-EU]
Supertester
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 Ifind that after the patch, the IJN DDs are more viable, simply because that they reduced the torp reload. I haven't had many dueling matches in my Fubuki vs anything other than the Sims, but if you manage to hit with HE, you hit hard. So I would guess that USN vs IJN DD with equal skill in brawling range, USN wins. 

 

My strategy is to launch torps without being spotted in IJN DDs. After I have done so, I usually annoy another target with my guns, as to not scare the one I launched torps at. The trick to long range torps is to use the white con as an estimate, and hen take into consideration islands near the target, which way he will be turning due to this, etc. and launch your torps ahead of the estimate or back, depending on situation. The T8 has three launchers, so you can use one torp salvo to force your adversary to turn into the next. 

 

I didn't play t6-t7 after the patch, but they were mediocre at best when I played them. Two tubes really hurt with the long reload. How they are now, I have no idea. The T8 is really nice, with a good combination of guns and three torp tubes. The guns have a slow turning rate, but the captain skill and BB experience really helps. I don't consider it a problem anymore on the T8 at least. I use the 10 km torps simply because they have greater speed compared to the 15 km ones, and you don't usually hit with torps launched from above 10 km anyway (well, not intentionally). 

 

Torp tactics are to max out stealth, get as close as possible and launch torps without being spotted. Islands and such make certain ship movements predictable enough that you can hit quite good. But this patch increased most vessel's turning rate, so they might be able to turn away in time regardless. When all is said and done, I quite enjoy IJN DDs now in comparison to before the patch.

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[EIRE]
[EIRE]
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Ah good tips, so seems that maybe IJN mid tier DDs hit a rough patch. Maybe they need a little look at balance wise...

 

I'll grind through them to VIII

 

I do use a lot of you tactis, especially using the first salvo to make a ship turn. Trouble is, any decent players turn away, and then you're pretty much gonna miss with the second anyways.

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