How to deal with carriers?

[DarkRocket17]

Hey there,

I have recently unlocked the battleship Kaiser and after playing a few rounds, I started wondering what I can do against carriers. My ship doesn´t have any notable anti-aircraft armament and so I tend to get focused by carriers. First of all, how many planes does a carrier have? They seem to have an unlimited supply of torpedo bombers since often they spam them out the entire round. Secondly, how can I evade bombs and torpedos in particular? The planes get within throwing range of my ship when they drop the torpedos, making it nearly impossible to evade them. 

Carriers seem to be hiding at the border of the map sending planes against ships that have little to no anti-aircraft armament while being safe from any danger. I often have games with 1 or two carriers and most of the time, they end up on top of the scoreboard with the most kill and even if their team loses, they survive.

 

It would be great if I could get some advice on how to deal with this threat.

Thanks a lot 

[Zamsel]

I am by no means an expert in avoiding CV's as I suffer a hell of a lot from them myself. Some things I generaly try to do when in a big sluggish BB that has no AA, I try to stay with the main fleet and preferably next to cruisers woth good AA. Easier said than done, I know, but what you should never ever do is wandering out on a flank alone. Stick with you cruisers and the CV is gonna go hunt your DD's instead.

 

Also, if you see torpedo bombers come in, turn towards them. If they catch you in a 90 degree angle most of their torps are gonna hit. This takes some game knowledge as you need to develop a feeling for when they are gonna torp you.

 

Best advice though, don't be that lonely BB that is cruising on its own at the bootom half of the map. As soon as you are alone, you are toast.

[DarkRocket17]

Thanks for the advice. I will try to stay closer to my friendlies. Which ships at rank III and IV have a good anti-aircraft armament? (Just so I know which ships to stick with)

[SV_Kompresor]

16 minutes ago, DarkRocket17 said:

Thanks for the advice. I will try to stay closer to my friendlies. Which ships at rank III and IV have a good anti-aircraft armament? (Just so I know which ships to stick with)

None. Maybe yubari but you don't see her too often.

[rnat]

2 hours ago, DarkRocket17 said:

Which ships at rank III and IV have a good anti-aircraft armament?

None really. You only start so see some actual AA at T5.

Something you will have to live with is that any competent CV that wants to strike you will almost always be able to do so (at a given cost).

The only thing you can do is be as uninviting a target as possible by potentially being with friendlies and mitigating any incoming damage.

So regarding that when DBs are dropping you try to be in a full-speed full turn if at all feasible.

That means for a BB with their slow rudder shift if enemy DBs are approaching you from the front or rear you'll have to start turning when enemy planes are still out of your AA range.

If they are coming from the side they will have to re-position anyway or make a shitty drop, just pay attention how they move (and if and which turns you can make without getting killed by enemy surface ships)

For TBs something similar holds. Given your rudder shift and acceleration you should already be at speed and initiate your turn when enemy TBs are still outside your AA and anywhere close to your broadside as well

since TBs can start their drop at ~6km to lower dmg taken by AA DPS. If they enter your AA from the front pay attention which side they are turning towards and make your turn on time if you think they will start turning it to drop you (if they drop immediately against your bow/stern you're mostly fine anyways if you're sailing in a straight line.

[Asatori]

The best way to start dealing with CV's is teamkilling honestly

 

If both sides could just agree at the start of the match to TK the CV on their team everyone else can have a normal pleasant game instead of the sky cancer [edited]up the gameply for everyone else...

[Verblonde]

3 hours ago, DarkRocket17 said:

Which ships at rank III and IV have a good anti-aircraft armament?

None of them really; this is made worse by the fact that, currently, you see more T4 CVs (with Hosho being a particular nuisance) than any other tier, so making hiding from the buggers more or less a non-starter. Basically playing low tiers against CVs sucks something that is hugely unpleasant to suck. That said, things do get a lot better once you're past the T4 CV plague, and have acquired a wider skill-set yourself.

 

3 hours ago, DarkRocket17 said:

some advice on how to deal with this threat.

Some pointers (in no particular order) from a DD main:

• Firstly, be aware that a good CV player is going to kill you more or less no matter what (at almost any tier); WG have messed up the AA-CV balance/gameplay such that a sufficiently skilled player will more or less always get to you if they really want. You have to come to terms with this, so as to reduce damage to your monitor when you feel the urge to put a boot through it, having been on the receiving end of such a skilled player. Luckily, they're rather rare - in randoms, anyway.
• If you're a big ship (cruiser+) you generally don't want to be isolated; it's harder for a CV to strike a 'blob' of more than one ship (or at least harder to strike it multiple times). This stuff applies to these ships generally - don't over-extend on general principles: if a CV doesn't get you, a surface ship will. BTW, this doesn't mean the whole team should lemming, but rather try and be within AA range of at least one other ship with tolerable AA. A DD that's doing it right will be alone, almost by definition - for DDs you want to generally hide/run away as the situation dictates.
• Try and arrange matters so your ship is optimally orientated with regard to the incoming planes: in very general terms, this means bow towards incoming torps, and side on to at least some bombers. There is a lot of variation though; what you're trying to do is to present the smallest target for the planes to hit, but this sometimes can not be consistent with making you harder to hit in the first place (for example, bombers with an elliptical drop pattern along their course want to line up with your long axis for maximum hits, so giving them side makes this harder, *but* driving straight towards them if they spotted you late can mess up their aim, assuming you aren't spotted from the moon).
• If you're a DD, look at your spotting distance from the air and your AA range (press and hold 'h' in game, by default); if AA range is greater, then you want your AA off when it's not actually in use - 'p' is the default toggle. When your AA opens up, the distance the planes can see you becomes your AA range, and this range is often enough to spot you and launch an aimed attack; with AA off, most CVs won't have time to spot and then make a considered attack (unless they have a good idea where you are already). Have an idea how good (or not) your AA is on a DD; most are pretty weak, so you want to leave it switched off except in extremis.
• Returning to the general subject of positioning, you want to keep an eye on this for a number of reasons. For a start, a lot of the threat from CVs (especially for sneakier ships) is that they spot you for their friends; a CV may well not kill you directly, but the opposing surface fleet will. Keep an eye on islands etc. - you can put these between you and surface threats whilst you deal with the planes. Also, you need to try and think ahead a bit; being attacked by planes can often mean you change course - if you aren't careful, this can result in you giving broadside to scarier surface enemies who are just waiting for this opportunity; try and have an idea where such threats are so - if possible - you can take evasive action that doesn't put you in even more danger (sometimes, it can be better to eat the damage from the planes than expose yourself to some surface monster).
• If you are in a DD with good AA, it can sometimes be worth letting the CV know that as early as possible (especially if the CV is lower tier than you); if you give the first set of planes a bloody nose (or shred it entirely), a more pedestrian CV player will often leave you alone, in favour of easier targets. This only works with a few DDs, and you want an island between you and the enemy whilst attacking the planes, to avoid the surface combatants scragging you when the planes get you spotted. If you have the slightest warning that the CV in question may be a competent player, don't try this!
• WG's helpful advice on the subject of plane attacks is words to the effect of 'just dodge'; this makes a lot of players really annoyed as, for the bulk of ships, it's spectacularly unhelpful/pointless. For at least some DDs though (the more nimble ones), it is a practical proposition, although not being found in the first place is almost always better. Try and keep track of where the incoming planes are, and wiggle like a wiggling thing, to try and mess up their aim, drive between their torps etc. (this also makes it harder for any surface ships that may be taking an interest to hit you).
• Be aware of sector reinforcement and how it works (and probably map it to a more useful control than the default - I have it on a spare mouse button, for example); it's often not much use if you're the target, but it can be very helpful if you need to engage planes passing to one side of you and/or going after a team-mate. I find it essential for DDs particularly.
• As you progress, developing good captains should be something you concentrate on (for a start, you really want at least 10 points from T5 and up); this isn't directly an AA/CV thing, but some skills do usefully boost your AA, and some are simply not worth taking. My view, for what it's worth (on the AA boosting skills): BFT is worth it if you have small main guns that are also boosted (so, mainly DDs, and things like Atlanta/Smol etc.), or you've already taken all the other skills that you need, but after you've completed your 'baseline' build. AFT is only worth it if it provides you with a useful bonus to surface capabilities (this usually means things like Smol/Colbert/Atlanta where you might want the extra main gun reach, or secondary monsters like MA and the higher tier KM BBs); don't take AFT for pure AA reasons. MAA is generally considered worthless, or simply not worth four points.

That's just a few things to have in mind; it does all take practice and a bit of learning though - don't worry if you make a mess of things initially though; at time of writing, you're showing 95 random battles - this isn't bad, but it isn't a lot. If you haven't already, have a look at some YouTube tutorials (iChase is usually good), although keep an eye on the date - you want recent stuff, as the games has changed a lot in the last year, *especially* vis-a-vis CVs. As well as this, it's a good idea to join a clan, especially one with members who are happy to teach (ideally you want to be using voice comms too, so people can give you feedback in real time - Discord and TS seem to be the most common, although you can use the in-game voice); besides the learning/divisioning advantages, a lot of clans have a developed base that provides all members with economic rewards.

 

To reiterate though: against a good CV player, there really isn't much you can do (there are several such players on this forum who can explain why far better than I can); all of the preceding is about dealing with an average player, and those you often *can* do something about (especially at the moment, where we have so many rusty/new players in the game).

[DarkRocket17]

Vor 22 Stunden, Verblonde sagte:

Some pointers (in no particular order) from a DD main:

• Firstly, be aware that a good CV player is going to kill you more or less no matter what (at almost any tier); WG have messed up the AA-CV balance/gameplay such that a sufficiently skilled player will more or less always get to you if they really want. You have to come to terms with this, so as to reduce damage to your monitor when you feel the urge to put a boot through it, having been on the receiving end of such a skilled player. Luckily, they're rather rare - in randoms, anyway.
• If you're a big ship (cruiser+) you generally don't want to be isolated; it's harder for a CV to strike a 'blob' of more than one ship (or at least harder to strike it multiple times). This stuff applies to these ships generally - don't over-extend on general principles: if a CV doesn't get you, a surface ship will. BTW, this doesn't mean the whole team should lemming, but rather try and be within AA range of at least one other ship with tolerable AA. A DD that's doing it right will be alone, almost by definition - for DDs you want to generally hide/run away as the situation dictates.
• Try and arrange matters so your ship is optimally orientated with regard to the incoming planes: in very general terms, this means bow towards incoming torps, and side on to at least some bombers. There is a lot of variation though; what you're trying to do is to present the smallest target for the planes to hit, but this sometimes can not be consistent with making you harder to hit in the first place (for example, bombers with an elliptical drop pattern along their course want to line up with your long axis for maximum hits, so giving them side makes this harder, *but* driving straight towards them if they spotted you late can mess up their aim, assuming you aren't spotted from the moon).
• If you're a DD, look at your spotting distance from the air and your AA range (press and hold 'h' in game, by default); if AA range is greater, then you want your AA off when it's not actually in use - 'p' is the default toggle. When your AA opens up, the distance the planes can see you becomes your AA range, and this range is often enough to spot you and launch an aimed attack; with AA off, most CVs won't have time to spot and then make a considered attack (unless they have a good idea where you are already). Have an idea how good (or not) your AA is on a DD; most are pretty weak, so you want to leave it switched off except in extremis.
• Returning to the general subject of positioning, you want to keep an eye on this for a number of reasons. For a start, a lot of the threat from CVs (especially for sneakier ships) is that they spot you for their friends; a CV may well not kill you directly, but the opposing surface fleet will. Keep an eye on islands etc. - you can put these between you and surface threats whilst you deal with the planes. Also, you need to try and think ahead a bit; being attacked by planes can often mean you change course - if you aren't careful, this can result in you giving broadside to scarier surface enemies who are just waiting for this opportunity; try and have an idea where such threats are so - if possible - you can take evasive action that doesn't put you in even more danger (sometimes, it can be better to eat the damage from the planes than expose yourself to some surface monster).
• If you are in a DD with good AA, it can sometimes be worth letting the CV know that as early as possible (especially if the CV is lower tier than you); if you give the first set of planes a bloody nose (or shred it entirely), a more pedestrian CV player will often leave you alone, in favour of easier targets. This only works with a few DDs, and you want an island between you and the enemy whilst attacking the planes, to avoid the surface combatants scragging you when the planes get you spotted. If you have the slightest warning that the CV in question may be a competent player, don't try this!
• WG's helpful advice on the subject of plane attacks is words to the effect of 'just dodge'; this makes a lot of players really annoyed as, for the bulk of ships, it's spectacularly unhelpful/pointless. For at least some DDs though (the more nimble ones), it is a practical proposition, although not being found in the first place is almost always better. Try and keep track of where the incoming planes are, and wiggle like a wiggling thing, to try and mess up their aim, drive between their torps etc. (this also makes it harder for any surface ships that may be taking an interest to hit you).
• Be aware of sector reinforcement and how it works (and probably map it to a more useful control than the default - I have it on a spare mouse button, for example); it's often not much use if you're the target, but it can be very helpful if you need to engage planes passing to one side of you and/or going after a team-mate. I find it essential for DDs particularly.
• As you progress, developing good captains should be something you concentrate on (for a start, you really want at least 10 points from T5 and up); this isn't directly an AA/CV thing, but some skills do usefully boost your AA, and some are simply not worth taking. My view, for what it's worth (on the AA boosting skills): BFT is worth it if you have small main guns that are also boosted (so, mainly DDs, and things like Atlanta/Smol etc.), or you've already taken all the other skills that you need, but after you've completed your 'baseline' build. AFT is only worth it if it provides you with a useful bonus to surface capabilities (this usually means things like Smol/Colbert/Atlanta where you might want the extra main gun reach, or secondary monsters like MA and the higher tier KM BBs); don't take AFT for pure AA reasons. MAA is generally considered worthless, or simply not worth four points.

That's just a few things to have in mind; it does all take practice and a bit of learning though - don't worry if you make a mess of things initially though; at time of writing, you're showing 95 random battles - this isn't bad, but it isn't a lot. If you haven't already, have a look at some YouTube tutorials (iChase is usually good), although keep an eye on the date - you want recent stuff, as the games has changed a lot in the last year, *especially* vis-a-vis CVs. As well as this, it's a good idea to join a clan, especially one with members who are happy to teach (ideally you want to be using voice comms too, so people can give you feedback in real time - Discord and TS seem to be the most common, although you can use the in-game voice); besides the learning/divisioning advantages, a lot of clans have a developed base that provides all members with economic rewards.

 

To reiterate though: against a good CV player, there really isn't much you can do (there are several such players on this forum who can explain why far better than I can); all of the preceding is about dealing with an average player, and those you often *can* do something about (especially at the moment, where we have so many rusty/new players in the game).

Thanks for the detailed advice and tips. I didn´t even know that you can turn off the AA. I will try to improve my situational awareness and positioning.

 

The channel you mentioned is very helpful too, so thanks a lot. 

Vor 23 Stunden, Asatori sagte:

The best way to start dealing with CV's is teamkilling honestly

 

If both sides could just agree at the start of the match to TK the CV on their team everyone else can have a normal pleasant game instead of the sky cancer [edited]up the gameply for everyone else...

I am not sure if that´s a piece of advice I should take seriously.

 

[this_simple_username]

Battleships don't have great handling, so I suppose the best way is to just make the attack run much harder for the CV (carrier).

If they are torpedo bombers then I suggest turning towards the planes, nose in, to present a slimmer profile so the CV doesn't get a broadside of your ship. This could potentially make aiming harder for the CV.

 

Another suggestion is to use Priority AA Sector (if that's what it's called), Press O whilst facing your mouse whatever side of your ship the CV is attacking from, this will focus a lot of your AA on that side of the ship, so the planes take more damage.

 

This next one I'd say is most useful for DDs (Destroyers).

Press P to turn off your AA, this one is only really useful in destroyers (at tier 5 onward) when your AA range is greater than your air detection range.

This is useful since firing AA guns increases your air detection so it matches your AA firing range.

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, DarkRocket17 said:

I didn´t even know that you can turn off the AA.

I lot of people seem not to; it's one of the most helpful tips I got when I first started. The same toggle also turns secondaries on/off, although that's not often as important as *most* ships get spotted before they are in secondary range. Also, remember to check at the beginning of each game; the last state of your AA is remembered by the game - if you get sunk with AA on, it'll still be on for the next game

 

BTW have you found the 'range' options for the minimap? If you hold down ctrl and click on the cogwheels by the map's corner, you get a bunch of tick boxes (amongst other things) - these enable you to switch on range circles on the map for more things than the defaults; if you're concentrating on dealing with planes, then having AA range on is a good idea, along with aerial spotting distance. I personally have pretty much everything turned on, although it can get a bit cluttered on some ships.

[hellbolt]

52 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I lot of people seem not to; it's one of the most helpful tips I got when I first started. The same toggle also turns secondaries on/off, although that's not often as important as *most* ships get spotted before they are in secondary range. Also, remember to check at the beginning of each game; the last state of your AA is remembered by the game - if you get sunk with AA on, it'll still be on for the next game

 

BTW have you found the 'range' options for the minimap? If you hold down ctrl and click on the cogwheels by the map's corner, you get a bunch of tick boxes (amongst other things) - these enable you to switch on range circles on the map for more things than the defaults; if you're concentrating on dealing with planes, then having AA range on is a good idea, along with aerial spotting distance. I personally have pretty much everything turned on, although it can get a bit cluttered on some ships.

On DD this is main way to avoid CV since their detectability from Air is like 3-4 km. But now if the CV player is competent they will your ship anyway no matter of the counter measures you use. Even Minotaurs and Des Moines, Worcester ships which were purely AA cannot handle CV without being hit now.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, Verblonde said:

I lot of people seem not to; it's one of the most helpful tips I got when I first started. The same toggle also turns secondaries on/off, although that's not often as important as *most* ships get spotted before they are in secondary range.

ALL ships get spotted from beyond secondary range. No ship has a secondary range extending beyond concealment. In any instant where secondaries open up and you don't get spotted, either there is solid cover or smoke and secondaries shooting does not increase detectability. Indeed, you can farm ships from like 3 km in a smoke cloud with a BB, as long as you got vision on them and they won't see you if you don't fire your main guns. Can be fun with German hydro BBs.

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, hellbolt said:

But now if the CV player is competent they will your ship anyway no matter of the counter measures you use.

If you'll permit me to quote myself from an earlier post:

 

On 4/7/2020 at 10:14 AM, Verblonde said:

Firstly, be aware that a good CV player is going to kill you more or less no matter what (at almost any tier); WG have messed up the AA-CV balance/gameplay such that a sufficiently skilled player will more or less always get to you if they really want.

 

23 minutes ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

ALL ships get spotted from beyond secondary range.

Doh! My bad. My initial instinct was that this was the case, but I was too lazy to double-check if I'd forgotten some weird build or other...

[Eviscerador]

There is nothing you can do. If he wants you dead, you are dead. Simple as that. Just pray he pick another victim and he let's you enjoy the game a bit.

[lafeel]

4 hours ago, Eviscerador said:

There is nothing you can do. If he wants you dead, you are dead. Simple as that. Just pray he pick another victim and he let's you enjoy the game a bit.

Not entirely true, you can try to kill him first.

[Nebuched]

Ask them not to come into your personal space. 

[Nebuched]

On 4/7/2020 at 12:04 PM, DarkRocket17 said:

Thanks for the advice. I will try to stay closer to my friendlies. Which ships at rank III and IV have a good anti-aircraft armament? (Just so I know which ships to stick with)

Kaisers with AFT (as that skill will be very useful on Bismarck). And ofcourse if you are on the right or left side of a map you can preset Priority AA to the logical direction. 

[ollonborre]

3 hours ago, Nebuched said:

Kaisers with AFT (as that skill will be very useful on Bismarck). And ofcourse if you are on the right or left side of a map you can preset Priority AA to the logical direction. 

Except that skill is useless for AA purposes. 

 

If you want to survive air attacks you need full tank build and hope the CV either grows bored, is a potato and eats all your flak, or that you can gain map control and push towards the CV. That is it basically.

[Nibenay78]

On 4/7/2020 at 12:25 PM, DarkRocket17 said:

Hey there,

I have recently unlocked the battleship Kaiser and after playing a few rounds, I started wondering what I can do against carriers. My ship doesn´t have any notable anti-aircraft armament and so I tend to get focused by carriers. First of all, how many planes does a carrier have? They seem to have an unlimited supply of torpedo bombers since often they spam them out the entire round. Secondly, how can I evade bombs and torpedos in particular? The planes get within throwing range of my ship when they drop the torpedos, making it nearly impossible to evade them. 

Carriers seem to be hiding at the border of the map sending planes against ships that have little to no anti-aircraft armament while being safe from any danger. I often have games with 1 or two carriers and most of the time, they end up on top of the scoreboard with the most kill and even if their team loses, they survive.

 

It would be great if I could get some advice on how to deal with this threat.

Thanks a lot 

1) No ships at tier 3-4 has any kind of AA that will reasonably protect you from strikes. At best you might get a plane or two from a squadron, but that still leaves more than enough to keep striking you. Also AA is really short after the rework, to be inside the medium zone (most ships dont have a long range flak zone at tier 3-4 anyways), you're basically sailing on top of the other ship(s), which causes other issues....

 

2) Carrier regenereate planes at a fixed rate, if you don't shoot down enough, they will always come with full squadrons towards you. At tier 3-4 it's a rare thing to run out of planes.

 

3) Evading bombs - turn your ship so the length of your ship doesn't line up with the direction the planes are coming in. The bombing circle is elongated towards the direction the planes are flying. However making random turns tends to leave your broadside open for all the incoming enemy fire (if you started out  bow on or angled towards the enemy).

 

4) Evading torps - turn your ship towards or away from the incoming planes. You'll possibly evade or eat only 1 torpedo. However you're now again in the situation as described above, with your broadside probably available for all other ships to smack you. On top of that the CV will now turn and come in from another angle to hit your broadside on the next strike. If you got shot at by another BB, it's likely that you in the end took more damage than just eating two torps to begin with! Great fun we know! 

 

5) Evading rockets - in a battleship you can't really evade them, only hope that the CV misses your soft superstructure. A full turn might cause some drift that sometimes works for a DD to a marginal extent, but a BB or just too big and slow. Probably you'll eat a bit damage and then be set on fire. Its probably no point to put it out as soon you'll be struck by torpedoes again :D

 

6) If you see a Texas (tier 5), cling to it, then you'll probably die last. It's the only ship with reasonably good AA. They will also die from CVs, just generally be picked on in the end, since the CV will actually lose a bit of planes and could run low.

 

7) Also keep in mind you will have minimal chance to run away in a BB. Even if you should get out of range or squeeze behind some land, you'll still be spotted by planes. 

 

8) Uninstall the game like I did last night after giving up against CVs. 

It gets tedious when playing "supposedly" strong AA ships (USS Alaska), placing the ship as well as possible (completely sideways to bomber squads) - yet eat citadel after citadel, knowing that whatever you do, you'll eventually burn or flood to death after a short while. 

 

Edit: attaching screenshot from my result yesterday, to show that the games for me were not overall bad, nor that I potatoed my way through them, just insanely frustrating whenever a CV was present.

 

 

@Yoshanai congrats, you won!

 

 

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 26 Minuten, Nibenay78 sagte:

@Yoshanai congrats, you won!

Why did you never ask me to help you?

Despite what people like to believe and the narratives they spin the methods I teach work against at least 90% of the CV pop. Instead you choose the easy way, which is quitting. Fine by me.

Good luck with whatever game you are going to play besides WOWS.

[Nibenay78]

16 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Why did you never ask me to help you?

Despite what people like to believe and the narratives they spin the methods I teach work against at least 90% of the CV pop. Instead you choose the easy way, which is quitting. Fine by me.

Good luck with whatever game you are going to play besides WOWS.

Feel free to elaborate if my overall suggestions to OP are completely wrong, I'm sure they'll won't mind some hints from a better player than myself.

 

Also I watched one DD gameplay video you posted. I don't really see myself doing that much different than that but - please let me know how one does any advanced dodging in an Alaska for example, it hardly has the options of a DD (turning on and off AA, turning into rocket planes to minimize reaction time, using the drift effect in turns to make rockets miss, possibility of reasonably fast breaking and acceleration).

 

Plus I'd like to add - as we mentioned before, people who complain generally like the game and will give it a lot of time before they give up on the game. Like I said, my games were generally enjoyable with no CV. If you call trying to adapt AND giving feedback to WG for well over a year is "the easy way", go ahead.

 

However lets not do the discussion here - unless @DarkRocket17 would be interested?

[MixuS]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:14 PM, Verblonde said:

WG have messed up the AA-CV balance/gameplay

I want to clear a certain misunderstanding that lot of people have regarding CV rework. WG hasn't messed up anything. "Messing up" would mean that they have tried to do something but failed. No matter what players may think, current CV situation is exactly what WG wants it to be and has designed it to be. That is for CVs to be sufficiently overpowered to sustain large enough CV population. Their goal isn't balanced gameplay. Pray that CV population remains on current level, or WG will buff CVs even more, or vice versa nerf AA all around.

[Verblonde]

1 hour ago, MixuS said:

WG hasn't messed up anything. "Messing up" would mean that they have tried to do something but failed.

I agree that what they've done is deliberate, but they've still messed it up...!

[h_x]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:14 PM, Verblonde said:

None of them really; this is made worse by the fact that, currently, you see more T4 CVs (with Hosho being a particular nuisance) than any other tier, so making hiding from the buggers more or less a non-starter. Basically playing low tiers against CVs sucks something that is hugely unpleasant to suck. That said, things do get a lot better once you're past the T4 CV plague, and have acquired a wider skill-set yourself.

 

Some pointers (in no particular order) from a DD main:

• Firstly, be aware that a good CV player is going to kill you more or less no matter what (at almost any tier); WG have messed up the AA-CV balance/gameplay such that a sufficiently skilled player will more or less always get to you if they really want. You have to come to terms with this, so as to reduce damage to your monitor when you feel the urge to put a boot through it, having been on the receiving end of such a skilled player. Luckily, they're rather rare - in randoms, anyway.
• If you're a big ship (cruiser+) you generally don't want to be isolated; it's harder for a CV to strike a 'blob' of more than one ship (or at least harder to strike it multiple times). This stuff applies to these ships generally - don't over-extend on general principles: if a CV doesn't get you, a surface ship will. BTW, this doesn't mean the whole team should lemming, but rather try and be within AA range of at least one other ship with tolerable AA. A DD that's doing it right will be alone, almost by definition - for DDs you want to generally hide/run away as the situation dictates.
• Try and arrange matters so your ship is optimally orientated with regard to the incoming planes: in very general terms, this means bow towards incoming torps, and side on to at least some bombers. There is a lot of variation though; what you're trying to do is to present the smallest target for the planes to hit, but this sometimes can not be consistent with making you harder to hit in the first place (for example, bombers with an elliptical drop pattern along their course want to line up with your long axis for maximum hits, so giving them side makes this harder, *but* driving straight towards them if they spotted you late can mess up their aim, assuming you aren't spotted from the moon).
• If you're a DD, look at your spotting distance from the air and your AA range (press and hold 'h' in game, by default); if AA range is greater, then you want your AA off when it's not actually in use - 'p' is the default toggle. When your AA opens up, the distance the planes can see you becomes your AA range, and this range is often enough to spot you and launch an aimed attack; with AA off, most CVs won't have time to spot and then make a considered attack (unless they have a good idea where you are already). Have an idea how good (or not) your AA is on a DD; most are pretty weak, so you want to leave it switched off except in extremis.
• Returning to the general subject of positioning, you want to keep an eye on this for a number of reasons. For a start, a lot of the threat from CVs (especially for sneakier ships) is that they spot you for their friends; a CV may well not kill you directly, but the opposing surface fleet will. Keep an eye on islands etc. - you can put these between you and surface threats whilst you deal with the planes. Also, you need to try and think ahead a bit; being attacked by planes can often mean you change course - if you aren't careful, this can result in you giving broadside to scarier surface enemies who are just waiting for this opportunity; try and have an idea where such threats are so - if possible - you can take evasive action that doesn't put you in even more danger (sometimes, it can be better to eat the damage from the planes than expose yourself to some surface monster).
• If you are in a DD with good AA, it can sometimes be worth letting the CV know that as early as possible (especially if the CV is lower tier than you); if you give the first set of planes a bloody nose (or shred it entirely), a more pedestrian CV player will often leave you alone, in favour of easier targets. This only works with a few DDs, and you want an island between you and the enemy whilst attacking the planes, to avoid the surface combatants scragging you when the planes get you spotted. If you have the slightest warning that the CV in question may be a competent player, don't try this!
• WG's helpful advice on the subject of plane attacks is words to the effect of 'just dodge'; this makes a lot of players really annoyed as, for the bulk of ships, it's spectacularly unhelpful/pointless. For at least some DDs though (the more nimble ones), it is a practical proposition, although not being found in the first place is almost always better. Try and keep track of where the incoming planes are, and wiggle like a wiggling thing, to try and mess up their aim, drive between their torps etc. (this also makes it harder for any surface ships that may be taking an interest to hit you).
• Be aware of sector reinforcement and how it works (and probably map it to a more useful control than the default - I have it on a spare mouse button, for example); it's often not much use if you're the target, but it can be very helpful if you need to engage planes passing to one side of you and/or going after a team-mate. I find it essential for DDs particularly.
• As you progress, developing good captains should be something you concentrate on (for a start, you really want at least 10 points from T5 and up); this isn't directly an AA/CV thing, but some skills do usefully boost your AA, and some are simply not worth taking. My view, for what it's worth (on the AA boosting skills): BFT is worth it if you have small main guns that are also boosted (so, mainly DDs, and things like Atlanta/Smol etc.), or you've already taken all the other skills that you need, but after you've completed your 'baseline' build. AFT is only worth it if it provides you with a useful bonus to surface capabilities (this usually means things like Smol/Colbert/Atlanta where you might want the extra main gun reach, or secondary monsters like MA and the higher tier KM BBs); don't take AFT for pure AA reasons. MAA is generally considered worthless, or simply not worth four points.

That's just a few things to have in mind; it does all take practice and a bit of learning though - don't worry if you make a mess of things initially though; at time of writing, you're showing 95 random battles - this isn't bad, but it isn't a lot. If you haven't already, have a look at some YouTube tutorials (iChase is usually good), although keep an eye on the date - you want recent stuff, as the games has changed a lot in the last year, *especially* vis-a-vis CVs. As well as this, it's a good idea to join a clan, especially one with members who are happy to teach (ideally you want to be using voice comms too, so people can give you feedback in real time - Discord and TS seem to be the most common, although you can use the in-game voice); besides the learning/divisioning advantages, a lot of clans have a developed base that provides all members with economic rewards.

 

To reiterate though: against a good CV player, there really isn't much you can do (there are several such players on this forum who can explain why far better than I can); all of the preceding is about dealing with an average player, and those you often *can* do something about (especially at the moment, where we have so many rusty/new players in the game).

thanks for the in-depth guide man!

[Maris_Piper]

Ships at the lower tiers were laid down before anyone had got an aircraft to fly straight let alone carry a bomb and they have to deal with 1920/30s Carriers .Basically it's the Old Realistic meta crashing into the Fairy Tale Meta.  The best way is just to try hard to get up to T5/6 where  AA can help a bit, but all the tips in the world can't alter the fact that if the CV player is any good and wants to ruin your day they will, It's no one's fault but  WG's they introduced them and then Balanced over the ship AA  everyone has to go through it.at most tiers Think of it as Character Building... Just my opinion though.