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Daemon_Blackfyre

Holy s*** the Shchors is (a bit too) good!

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For the record, I had NO opinion on the Shchors before playing it, it had completely gone under the radar for me, so this isn't one of those salty "OP ship needs nerf" threads written after a poor defeat, so all you Stalin-a-boos can just hold it there. This is also only an opinion after the IFHE changes, I've no idea what it was like before.


That being said, I have been playing through the Russian cruiser line ahead of the introduction of the new ships soon, and I wanted a Moskva before it gets removed from the tech tree, so I played through the Budyonny (had apparently already got that far years ago) which was alright (though I seem to have a 60% win rate in it, but that's only marginally higher than my average of 57%) but then I get to the Shchors and WOW, that thing is ridiculous! I've just unlocked the Chapayev, and am currently sitting at a 78% win rate for the Shchors, it was sitting in the mid-high 80's for a long while, till I got a few of those unwinnable games where your entire team can't tell their [edited]from their elbow and just inexplicably evaporates within 5 mins... Yeah those kind of games.

For context those losses were all tier 9 games. I have not lost a single game in this ship when I wasn't bottom tier... And even in tier 9 games, in this little beast of a ship I'm not scared of anyone, its so versatile. I cannot understand why the average win rate for all players on warships today is so low (only 50.48%).

So WHY I think it's so good is as follows:
Firepower

Fast rate of fire & 12 guns, good gun angles, really high fire chance, punchy AP, rail gun velocities and very accurate.
Survivability
Fast, decent maneuverability with the rudder mod, only 75mm belt, but must be made out of stalinium given how little damage I seem to take, narrow, so when actively maneuvering most shells miss. Great gun angles again mean you never really have to show your citadel. Hydro. Long range, good ballistics and spotter mean you can choose the range of engagement. Strong deck armour protecting the citadel and negligible armour elsewhere so most hits are over-pens.

So this translates to:
Against destroyers, you're very fast, have hydro and lots of high velocity, accurate and fast-firing guns, tier 9 dds don't stand a chance.
Against cruisers is tricky, usually bait them into showing broadside by spamming HE at them then use the fast reload to punish with AP before they can angle again.
Against battleships, you have speed and range to control the engagement, spam HE for fires, while acting like MC Hammer (can't touch this) while they get frustrated at not hitting anything, all the while your preoccupying them with this tempting "squishy" CL and they are not contributing to their team.

Honestly I feel like that last point is probably what's contributed the most to why I think this ship is so strong, more than the 80k avg damage, its the >600k avg potential damage. For 5 mins of a game I can be occupying the attention of 3 top tier battleships solo while keeping them all burning like its bonfire night, taking only slight damage while my team can do something useful as they only have to deal with the weaker 3/4 of their team. It is just the hands down king of kiting (at tier 7).

He're where I think it's a bit OP, I've also been playing the British heavy cruiser line recently and have got as far as the Drake at tier 9, and I was thinking, which ship would I choose to take while fighting other tier 9's, Drake or Shchors? I'd have to say, so far, only for fighting other cruisers would I pick the Drake. I genuinely feel like a tier 7 cruiser would be more effective against tier 9 DDs and probably BBs too than a cruiser 2 tiers higher... I realise the Drake is perhaps a bad tier 9 cruiser (though it's average stats on the EU sever are pretty good), but I think the point still stands, I can't think of another ship (I've played) that feels so competitive regardless of the tier, genuinely I feel like I'm on a more or less equal footing with the tier 9s.

By the stats say the Drake is a good ship and I think that the majority of that line (Drake included) is in desperate need of some buffs. While the Shchors by the stats is in the bottom 1/3, but I would still consider it OP (but not worthy of a nerf as I seem to be amongst the few that know how good that thing is). Well that, or apparently I'm just a super Unicum and didn't know it ( I know which one I'm rooting for!)

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You look like a sellman, who try to hard to sell a spoon. :/

You can't say in one hand, "Wow the armor is so OP, you will get mostly overpen" and the other hand "I don't understand, why when i see a Schor it explose."

 

And for competition, lol, nah T7ranked happened and if you wanted a true OP cruiser, you should instead pick Fiji or Belfast. 

 

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2 hours ago, Daemon_Blackfyre said:

For the record, I had NO opinion on the Shchors before playing it, it had completely gone under the radar for me, so this isn't one of those salty "OP ship needs nerf" threads written after a poor defeat, so all you Stalin-a-boos can just hold it there.
...
Strong deck armour protecting the citadel and negligible armour elsewhere so most hits are over-pens.

...

I think WG is about to release a good amount of mini-stalins to give it effective counters. Maybe even Smolensk will suffer a bit from them.

 

/ Stalin-a-boo

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Used to be better with faster rate if fire and much faster rudder shift than the chapayev. Not so sure after the IFHE change. T7 is now quite bad for cruisers.

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78% win rate out of less than 30 battles is just RNG.

Last week I did 100k average damage and over 2 kills (mostly DDs) in Enterprise and won 20% out of 30 games. Is Enterprise underpowered, or is it RNG, what do you think?


Lately playing solo in ANY ship is just a a coin toss mostly. The teams are horrendously clueless and bad, it up to the RNGesus to which side you end up on.

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Shchors has a very high skill floor. Thats why the average stats are in line with many other ships. But since the IFHE rework, it should have lost some of its power, as it wont get 32mm pen to hurt T8+ BBs anymore.

Also have to remember, Shchors got introduced back when IFHE didnt exist. So its high firepower wasnt much of an issue, as it just kept shattering on many places, basicly all T6+ BBs and T8+ Cruisers. Introduction of IFHE unbalanced many CLs, naturally one like shchors with high ROF + tons of guns profitted a lot from it.

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27 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Shchors has a very high skill floor.

 

Pretty much this. If you know how to properly position yourself and how to most effective use spotter plane, Shchors will award you with great results. But if you don't have situation awareness Shchors will probably be pretty frustrating for you as its level of protection is comparable with that of Omaha or Pepsi. I love Shchors but I didn't play a single game after IFHE changes so I don-t know how good it is now. But before change, basically you have Chapa/Kutuzov DPM one tier lower, so it wasn't surprising that it will perform well if you know how to play it.    

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never used spotter plane on it and had a blast playing. Its fast, maneuverable and spits fire in amazing amounts. Armor doesn't matter, if you keep your distance BB shells will never hit you before you turn or slow down. The only problem is Shchors is not a playmaker, you should never ever shorten the distance unless absolutely necessary - just keep that safe 16+ km and slowly burn them to death. Patience is key, even if you are on 5k hp almost dead you can still dodge and pump dmg (even better on adrenal)

 

I also played Chapa in the same way because I decided it's too squishy to support DDs with radar in the early game and used it only for mid-late DD clears. Works like a charm

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2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Shchors got introduced back when IFHE didnt exist. So its high firepower wasnt much of an issue, as it just kept shattering on many places

That´s true, back then even Kutuzov felt like throwing light-bulbs at rocks.

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3 hours ago, Blixies said:

78% win rate out of less than 30 battles is just RNG.

Last week I did 100k average damage and over 2 kills (mostly DDs) in Enterprise and won 20% out of 30 games. Is Enterprise underpowered, or is it RNG, what do you think?


Lately playing solo in ANY ship is just a a coin toss mostly. The teams are horrendously clueless and bad, it up to the RNGesus to which side you end up on.

 

Yeah Im seeing this.

The only exception for me is Fujin in which I am maintaining 80%WR. All tiers above that I am having to graft hard and even then not win.. This is 23/3, to 24/3, for me.. Grafting my bollox off, last ship alive and still losing.. Fujin at least gives me some sanity at the moment although Yugo is strong too, better than my Benham by a few ticks as I'm languishing at 59% in her...

 

 

Don't even ask me about the Asah game. I had died after securing all caps and running around like a man possessed. We had 200 points in the bag with 30 secs to go and our last ship (Atago) decides to rush the Colorado and died with 10 secs on the clock.

I went for a walk...

 

Grafting.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

never used spotter plane on it and had a blast playing. Its fast, maneuverable and spits fire in amazing amounts. Armor doesn't matter, if you keep your distance BB shells will never hit you before you turn or slow down. The only problem is Shchors is not a playmaker,...

And that is the problem. When you want to win, you have to get closer.

Just farming damage on BB does not win games.

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Frankly, Shchors has some of the best T7 cruiser guns (at least prior to IFHE rework, not sure about now that T8 BB is kinda off-limits), but suffers from one of the most atrocious cruiser hulls at the tier. Concealment is not good, maneuverability is dogshit and citadel protection is a joke. Prior to CV rework, AA too was a joke, but that is the case for all T7 cruisers now. Shchors makes an extra nice target though, because it is big, does not turn and has no dps nor armour, so whether you come with rockets, AP bombs, HE bombs, carpet bombers or torps, Shchors just eats them all.

 

Also, arguing Shchors is so powerful because it does one single job better than a T9 that obviously was designed for a different job is a bit iffy. Because against everything not a DD, Drake beats the Shchors without issues and even against DDs, a low hp Shchors is a far easier opponent than a Drake, because you can just gun it down. Shchors gets penned by DD ammo, Drake only in the superstructure or by the IJN line. Meanwhile compare Shchors to Chapayev or Donskoi and you got a wholly different level of anti-DD threat.

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I picked up the Shchors back when I heard about the RU cruiser-spilt. Wanted to stack up on XP for Tallin. So keep on playing your Shchors guys, since you'll have to grind out two T8s in her.

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3 hours ago, Hanse77SWE said:

I picked up the Shchors back when I heard about the RU cruiser-spilt. Wanted to stack up on XP for Tallin. So keep on playing your Shchors guys, since you'll have to grind out two T8s in her.

I don't think that this is the case. I mean we will have to grind with the Kirov replacament, towards the Tallinn. I could be wrong tho ....

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15 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

I don't think that this is the case. I mean we will have to grind with the Kirov replacament, towards the Tallinn. I could be wrong tho ....

 

Split is only at T8, so Shchors unlocks both trees. Kirov only gets replaced by a CL, and becomes a Premium instead.

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7 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Split is only at T8, so Shchors unlocks both trees. Kirov only gets replaced by a CL, and becomes a Premium instead.

Good point, I’ll get back on my Shchors!

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5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Split is only at T8, so Shchors unlocks both trees. Kirov only gets replaced by a CL, and becomes a Premium instead.

Thank you! That means that Shchors' research also will be changed ( Tallinn tied to an element, perhaps )....somehow. Hopefully  WG will not f* this up....as usual.

 

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1 hour ago, Andrewbassg said:

Thank you! That means that Shchors' research also will be changed ( Tallinn tied to an element, perhaps )....somehow. Hopefully  WG will not f* this up....as usual.

 

Their linesplits have on the contrary been very good previously at least

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14 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Nope. She is a good ship, but too squishy.

 

Her (lack of) agility doesn't do her any favours either.

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8 hours ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Frankly, Shchors has some of the best T7 cruiser guns (at least prior to IFHE rework, not sure about now that T8 BB is kinda off-limits), but suffers from one of the most atrocious cruiser hulls at the tier. Concealment is not good, maneuverability is dogshit and citadel protection is a joke. Prior to CV rework, AA too was a joke, but that is the case for all T7 cruisers now. Shchors makes an extra nice target though, because it is big, does not turn and has no dps nor armour, so whether you come with rockets, AP bombs, HE bombs, carpet bombers or torps, Shchors just eats them all.

 

Also, arguing Shchors is so powerful because it does one single job better than a T9 that obviously was designed for a different job is a bit iffy. Because against everything not a DD, Drake beats the Shchors without issues and even against DDs, a low hp Shchors is a far easier opponent than a Drake, because you can just gun it down. Shchors gets penned by DD ammo, Drake only in the superstructure or by the IJN line. Meanwhile compare Shchors to Chapayev or Donskoi and you got a wholly different level of anti-DD threat.

 

Just wait a second...

Concealment it's ok at 11.6 kms normal for your typical CL, while manoeuvrability it's not stellar it's not bad either , depending what you want to do, for turning it's bad but for dodging and duke, it's not bad if combined with shell's travel time.

 

Now you can just stop.

Nah, if you mean because of the radar, nah, it's not worth it.

Chapayev it's a pig of a ship, slower to respond than Shchors, it's painful slow , has less range (main guns), has less torps and deals less damage 60.400 k vs 53.799 k 

Chapayev it's like a worse Shchors with a radar, a 20 second radar, that's iffy (you can insta detect ships, i'll give you that). And if you Equip RPF + Hydro in your Shchors, chapayev becomes even more iffy.

the lack of speed amplifies the "turning like a brick issues". I didn't like it.

 

every single low HP cruiser can be gunned down by a DD.

 

Donskoy it's  better than Chapayev and it's enjoyable , but has it's own issues, slow ROF, slower turret transverse speed, with Donskoy you can lose the ability to insta detect ships but it's ok overall, can leave you wishing for Shchors in range of Main Guns and ROF in some situations.

 

Shchors is faster in everything, shooting, turning, reaches further than t8 and t9, has more stopping power and RPF  + hydro can be a substitute for radar, and while supporting a dd can be deadly for a dd, CL, CA, or BB 

 

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15 hours ago, Blixies said:

78% win rate out of less than 30 battles is just RNG.

How many would you say was a statistically significant number of battles? 50?

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12 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And that is the problem. When you want to win, you have to get closer.

Just farming damage on BB does not win games.

That's why I go after destroyers like a terrier first, once they're all dead start picking on the battleships, or whoever's closest. Unless they have good back-up there is practically nothing they can do unless they get lucky with a torpedo, because 2 torps and you're dead.

Also if there happens to be no battleships (or tier 9 cruisers) on your flank, I am quite happy to aggressively push up and clear out that flank, solo if needs be.

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Just now, Daemon_Blackfyre said:

How many would you say was a statistically significant number of battles? 50?

 

Best would be 100 or more. With 100 battles, every game is still 1%, so an unexpected winning or losing streak still has some impact even with that amount of games.

With 23 games, every game has more than 4% impact on your WR. Out of 23, you won 18 games. Imagine, if you would have lost 3 more, your WR would be at 65%. Which is absolutely not unlikely when playing solo.

image.thumb.png.2b052822f642445ed598ae8379c55b5b.png

My old Kongo stats. Played both at the same time, literally same damage/kills, but 15% difference in WR.

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18 hours ago, loppantorkel said:

I think WG is about to release a good amount of mini-stalins to give it effective counters. Maybe even Smolensk will suffer a bit from them.

 

/ Stalin-a-boo

Unless those ships can over-match a 60mm deck, I think it will be pretty much unaffected.

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