Lexington - how to kill DDs?

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, Europizza said:

Hey. Don't worry if you can't aim. WG fixed player problems with rocketplanes. 

Dive-bombing (and torping) DDs is a fine art. OK bombing not so much in RN CV... 

If you are able to do it, you can kill them faster than with rockets. 

It means you can carry TiTS on the US CVs, which are more effective against cruisers/BBs than HVARS. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

Ugh, I got told the opposite.

But Yoshanai is right. The BEST is to hit them with bombs.

What is BEST is not always the most simple though. Because this:

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

And I find the rockets to just be terrible against DDs.  With Shokaku I can comfortably get 5k strikes again and again and again from any angle;
with Tiny Tims I routinely have them bracket the enemy for 0 damage, and seldom have the time to make multiple strikes - when they do hit the damage is comparable to an average shokaku salvo - I suspect some lucky hits could be more devastating, but RNG doesn't seem to want to bless me with those.
With HVARs the damage is all over the place, but for only marginally better damage (7k broadside salvoes) the aiming situations are just way too circumstantial - how many DDs let you broadside them?  Head-on I've had salvoes deal less than 1k damage!

That, you have seen correctly. Except when (if you cannot do it with HE-bombs) you use rockets, and then get the DDs tricked into broadsiding. 

7K with HVARS on a good broadside, or something similar with TiTS on a "heavy" DD is possible. It is not possible with TiTS on a Shima or something (overpens).

Also indeed with TiTS you might miss the whole DD and end up with zilch. So the most SURE method is HVARS and trick them into broadside.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

I was hoping that, having hit the practice room, I'd be able to dive-bomb consistently enough to use them as an alternative - but I'm also finding them to be a massive liability too.

It is a fine art.... Also it will cost you plenty sheep, as that is what RNGesus requires.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

With Shokaku I feel like I can go in, get the job done, and get out.  With Lexington it feels like it takes forever to get to the enemy, then it's circumstantial as to whether the DD uses the lengthy attack-run to reorinetate against you, then it's a fluke if you get good hits or not; and then it's another fluke as to whether the good hits translate into good damage.

Yes the planes are slower (but more resilient). The stronger planes do not matter on DDs, but help against cruisers and BBs.

I have just reached Shokek yesterday so cannot compare yet. But I know from Kaga those IJN rockets hit really hard.

 

Curious - what damage do you get from rockets on Shokek? 

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

** From the game I just played **:
8 Tiny Tim hits - 6k damage.

3 Tiny Tim hits - 4.5k damage

1 Tiny Tim hit - 540hp damage

Total of 12 rocket hits - 11316 damage.

Sounds about correct. Midway is better. DDs are more resilient, and it gets more rockets, enhancing hitrates.

In fact I think Midway TiTS are brilliant. Lexi... well... hmm. HVARS also make more fires. And you'll always hit something.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

That weaksauce damage just doesn't cut it for me, not when I can be dealing 15k per squadron in my Shokaku's rocket planes.  I can work on my aim - maybe overwhelm the modules to hopefully up the damage (assuming saturation doesn't just negate that) - but I don't see the value - especially when I can be dealing 25k torpedo damage + floods per squadron torpedo damage against BBs which strikes me as more valuable.

There you go. That is what I concluded too. DDs are not prime target for me.

Yes I will (and can) kill them, but well... I'll gladly leave that task to those better equipped for it. 

So, unless they are a threat (as above), I'll concentrate on other stuff. After all I need my service-costs paid for, too.

 

Also, Lexi is much more dependent on DoT (HE bombs = fires). You do not get AP bombs. 

Your alpha-damage is much less than IJN CV. You do NOT want short games... why prioritize DDs?

[Ace42X]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Curious - what damage do you get from rockets on Shokek? 

 

Typically 4k+ per release on average with "meh" releases (7 hits); how many releases I get per squadron is very circumstantial - but even in adverse conditions 3 is often manageable because the angles are forgiving and the plane manouvreability means you don't really lose proximity spotting on the DD.  Contrast that to Lex where you lose sight of the target for what feels like an eternity while you come around for a second run.

In practice room, HVARs are giving me 4k per release (11 hits) under good conditions (immobile broadside targets )on average.  7k broadsides are very rare given RNG and small target sizes, even under perfect conditions.  In a battle I'm expecting more 2k whiffs than 4k and 7k hits, whereas I am disappointed if I don't get a 4k release in Shokaku.
I did get a weird flukey head-on hit where pretty much all the rockets hit somehow for decent damage, will practice more and see if there's a knack to getting value out of bow-to-stern approaches (given that's what DDs will present you with).

 

Tiny Tims are giving me less than 1k per hit, which means I'd need to get perfect strikes with them to get comparable value to Shokaku, and the RNG was typically giving me just one hit under perfect conditions, sometimes two.  Once or twice I got 4 hits in a release, but those were equally as frequent as getting no hits at all.

TBH I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea of winning games and not focussing DDs to the exclusion of all else:  Denying the ability of the enemy to stealth-cap CPs; blinding them; granting your team the security to position without the risk of being hit by swarms of torpedoes - any one of those would strike me as a game-winning advantage.  I can't see what value dealing damage adds that makes up for losing those advantages:  It's not like anyone else on the team tries shooting at DDs if they can farm damage off something easier to hit, let alone positions so as to shut the DD down themselves.

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

BTW I never had a kraken in any CV so far. 

I got two the other day, in quick succession.  Shokaku's just got good alpha to achieve that, AP bombs + reliable rockets + fast hard-hitting torps that you can double-drop, it's consistent enough that securing kills is just a matter of circumstance rather than the coincidence of whose fire was lit first / whether RNG gives you 7k damage or 3.

[BLUB__BLUB]

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

 

Typically 4k+ per release on average with "meh" releases (7 hits); how many releases I get per squadron is very circumstantial - but even in adverse conditions 3 is often manageable because the angles are forgiving and the plane manouvreability means you don't really lose proximity spotting on the DD.  Contrast that to Lex where you lose sight of the target for what feels like an eternity while you come around for a second run.

With Lexi, you just drop a spotter.... uuhhhh I mean a fighter plane, buit on;ly if you want that DD dead - or see any other use in his deletion.

 Your teammates will shoot at him too (likely... not guaranteed) anjd as such you'll maybe not be te he one that kills him. 

4k is not bad though. Lexi rockets aren't much better on average, as you found. THAT is why bombs are THE BEST, and why Yoshanai is right. 

Just not preferred - as not all of use have the skills. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

In practice room, HVARs are giving me 4k per release (11 hits) under good conditions (immobile broadside targets )on average.  7k broadsides are very rare given RNG and small target sizes, even under perfect conditions.  In a battle I'm expecting more 2k whiffs than 4k and 7k hits, whereas I am disappointed if I don't get a 4k release in Shokaku.

Should get better with practise. But on Lexi, I am sometimes doubting my choices. 

If you use TiTS yes they hit harder, IF they hit, and IF the target is "substancial" - a FATASS DD like the Russians wil do.

But of course, when you picked the TiTS, all you get is IJN DDs... and they are the hardest to hit with bombs, too. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

I did get a weird flukey head-on hit where pretty much all the rockets hit somehow for decent damage, will practice more and see if there's a knack to getting value out of bow-to-stern approaches (given that's what DDs will present you with).

I'd rather chase them, as when you shove the rockets up their behind, usually they'll turn and that makes for MORE hits.

Best though is to get them broadside, granted it isn't easy, but well it shouldn't be. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

Tiny Tims are giving me less than 1k per hit, which means I'd need to get perfect strikes with them to get comparable value to Shokaku, and the RNG was typically giving me just one hit under perfect conditions, sometimes two.  Once or twice I got 4 hits in a release, but those were equally as frequent as getting no hits at all.

TiTS are better left for cruisers (very effective) and that is why bombs are better (if you can). 

Bombs als can dev-strike DDs. Two passes should be enough. Rockets rarely do. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

TBH I'm having a hard time reconciling the idea of winning games and not focussing DDs to the exclusion of all else:  Denying the ability of the enemy to stealth-cap CPs; blinding them; granting your team the security to position without the risk of being hit by swarms of torpedoes - any one of those would strike me as a game-winning advantage.

Yes it wins games to kill DDs. You should still strike DDs when you come across them. A half-whacked Dd is a one-shot-kill for a cruiser.

If he meets one of YOUR DDs, it is better is he has 50% and yours has 100. On some moments, you must kill the DD. 

But it is not 100% YOUR task to kill all enemy DDs. And in some CVs, you can't do it unless you do nothing besides that.

And even if you do - your team can still throw it. Grasp defeat from the jaws of victory. 

 

NOW THAT is something you can rectify with AP-bombs, if needed. You can still whack that BB that is killing all your idiot teammates,

when they go for that 3rd cap even if there is a points lead and we already have two caps. 

BUT NOT with Lexi - there you need to "plan ahead" and groind down most opponents.

Yes you'll need to keep an eye on the DDs but well - spot them and hope a cruiser takes care of them with two salvoes. 

Better he does it than you having to spend 5 minutes to finally get him. 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

 I can't see what value dealing damage adds that makes up for losing those advantages:  It's not like anyone else on the team tries shooting at DDs if they can farm damage off something easier to hit, let alone positions so as to shut the DD down themselves.

Here's the thing though, what would help more:

A. kill the enemy DD that is capping; OR

B. kill the (radar)cruiser that is trying to kill YOUR DD that is capping.

 

Yes you can go around whacking all DDs. That way your teammates can go around damage farming all other ships. 
You can also screw all stuff that is a threat to your DDs. But. They just should do their jobs then. 

You will have lower WR in Lexi than in Shokaku - because you need the team to do their jobs. 

Have a look at my WR and guess which one has the higher alpha damage... (Shokaku isn't yet in...).

 

 

26 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

I got two the other day, in quick succession.  Shokaku's just got good alpha to achieve that, AP bombs + reliable rockets + fast hard-hitting torps that you can double-drop, it's consistent enough that securing kills is just a matter of circumstance rather than the coincidence of whose fire was lit first / whether RNG gives you 7k damage or 3.

Yes I already noticed that on Ryujo. Man those AP bombs don't leave something half-finished, eh. 

With Lexi, when you get a fire going even if it would kill that BB (or CL) then there's always someone who spots it... and finishes it before your fire does. 

Might als be because I do not focus DDs that much. 3DDs and 2CLs is easier than 5 BBs. Or perhaps not, with Shokaku.... I'll find out.

 

The reason I finally grinded Shokek is because I want the T10. Soon we'll be in Clan Battles... I do have Midway. Just wanna see if Haku is better.

Usually I play T6 CV (check my amount of Ark Royal games...), as I find the amount of hilarious stuff that happens there much more entertaining. 

Also I find the slow planes a challenge. Someday I'll nab that 200k damage record.... 

 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

This is a kind of topic where you guys are allowed to give him nothing ... or at least some misinformation . Nobody will blame you!

 

:)

[Excavatus]

Hello topic moved into more appopriate section of the forum. 

[Ace42X]

Still not having much joy.  An Osterland just chewed through 13 of my attack planes and four of my dive-bombers in exchange for me landing just 12 rocket hits and two bomb hits for 11k damage total (4.7k damage from two bombs, which would be fine if RNG gave me two bomb hits regularly, but at 2.3k per bomb that's still weaksauce compared to 4k Shokaku rocket strikes).  Yeah I stopped him capping epicentre, and that probably won us the game ultimately, but if we hadn't won quickly I'd've been deplaned by the time I was trying to strike the bunched up Georgia + Iowa.

If he's not got AA on, then I fly past him before I can even fire (let alone aim) the rockets; if he does have AA on then I'm losing at least three planes minimum (and a load of flight time) just to deal a piffling 4k hit.

As for Divebombing:  One bomb hit on Akizuki...  1.5k damage...

 

Is it just the case that Lexington's just not build for dealing with DDs, and should be farming damage on BBs?  Because its one superiority to Shokaku that I can discern is the ability to light fires with its bombs - which is somewhat redundant in a battlegroup which sees Smolensks and Harugumos and Henris and Conquerors, and so on and so on constantly lighting stuff on fire anyway.

 

Which leads me to two other questions:

Torpedo Acceleration & Torpedo speed mod - yay or nay?
I figured it was a no-brainer at first, especially how indispensible I found it to be on Ranger;  but I'm starting to second guess the choice.
Being obliged to drop further from the enemy means you have less time (distance) for your aim to recover if you have to make adjustments to account for last-minute evasions - and the aim-time and jitter on the torps is atrocious anyway.
The faster torps can out-run enemies they are chasing, giving you insufficient time to cross-drop.

Which +HP module is best?
I started off with +HP on rockets because that struck me as a way to make using the rocket planes against cruisers (optimal target for HVARs?) safer.  After reading this thread, I switched to +HP on bombers, because their lengthy aiming time and lack of mobility means they have to sit over their targets eating AA damage for ages.

Now I'm rethinking it again - as, as much as I dislike the torps, I'm finding I'm dealing significantly more damage with them than the alternatives.

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

Still not having much joy.  An Osterland just chewed through 13 of my attack planes and four of my dive-bombers in exchange for me landing just 12 rocket hits and two bomb hits for 11k damage total (4.7k damage from two bombs, which would be fine if RNG gave me two bomb hits regularly, but at 2.3k per bomb that's still weaksauce compared to 4k Shokaku rocket strikes).  Yeah I stopped him capping epicentre, and that probably won us the game ultimately, but if we hadn't won quickly I'd've been deplaned by the time I was trying to strike the bunched up Georgia + Iowa.

Valid reason to whack on DD, check. 

Not the much-wanted result, check.

Concluded: did not attack DDs except when needed, check.

Well done. It doesn't get any better.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

If he's not got AA on, then I fly past him before I can even fire (let alone aim) the rockets; if he does have AA on then I'm losing at least three planes minimum (and a load of flight time) just to deal a piffling 4k hit.

Yeah that's why you drop- a fighter (but only if "worth it"). 

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

As for Divebombing:  One bomb hit on Akizuki...  1.5k damage...

But: was it worth it?

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

Is it just the case that Lexington's just not build for dealing with DDs, and should be farming damage on BBs?  Because its one superiority to Shokaku that I can discern is the ability to light fires with its bombs - which is somewhat redundant in a battlegroup which sees Smolensks and Harugumos and Henris and Conquerors, and so on and so on constantly lighting stuff on fire anyway.

Yes that is the case. And you also have found the main problem. HE is nice but no carry possibility.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

Which leads me to two other questions:

Torpedo Acceleration & Torpedo speed mod - yay or nay?
I figured it was a no-brainer at first, especially how indispensible I found it to be on Ranger;  but I'm starting to second guess the choice.
Being obliged to drop further from the enemy means you have less time (distance) for your aim to recover if you have to make adjustments to account for last-minute evasions - and the aim-time and jitter on the torps is atrocious anyway.
The faster torps can out-run enemies they are chasing, giving you insufficient time to cross-drop.

Depends on your preference. I do not run it, because, indeed as you say.

I drop them close on cruisers/BBs that are just not quite close enough to islands.

And on DDs that smoke up... and cross-torp CL/BB. 

 

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

Which +HP module is best?
I started off with +HP on rockets because that struck me as a way to make using the rocket planes against cruisers (optimal target for HVARs?) safer.  After reading this thread, I switched to +HP on bombers, because their lengthy aiming time and lack of mobility means they have to sit over their targets eating AA damage for ages.

Really depends on your playstyle. 

Or maybe I should say, favourite way of harvesting....

I have it on the torpedoes.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, Ace42X said:

Now I'm rethinking it again - as, as much as I dislike the torps, I'm finding I'm dealing significantly more damage with them than the alternatives.

The thing with torps is, they deal ALPHA damage that cannot be mitigated. 

(and the occasional flood...).

Yes bombs do too, but they depend more on fire (RNGesus). 

And not only that, they also depend on OTHER PEOPLES RNGesus. 

Like, you set one fire, BB leaves it burn = good. Along comes Smolly and sets second fire,

BB uses damcon. Dammit there goes your damage. Then Smolly sets 3 perma-fires well no chance for you. 

 

Yes rockets do Alpha-damage too.... but well... you know already.

[Ace42X]

I checked my stats; my average damage, spotting, etc, etc is almost identical to Shokaku - so in that respect the Lex isn't underperforming on paper.
I'd be tempted to say "not all damage is equal, fires can be healed up completely given time and resources - and pretty much everyone, including DDs now, get healing by the T8-10 battlegroup", but going through the stats very little of the damage I'm applying is fires sticking.
However, as I'm wanting to hit bigger targets as much as possible (getting 3x Torp hits on anything nimble is less reliable than getting 2-4 Shokaku torp hits on the same targets; HE bombs will bracket smaller ships even under ideal circumstances, the HVAR recticule and TiT dispersions are massive), that damage is far less valuable than getting consistent hits on DDs for less damage, and less valuable than getting krakens and removing threats from the game altogether.

My winrate's recovering a bit, probably assisted by me finally getting Survival Expert skilled in; but it's still half-a-dozen wins off going positive again, and I can't help but think if it were as good at nuking DDs as Shokaku I'd be in the mid-60% winrate just like I am with her.

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Depends on your preference. I do not run it

 

My PTR account just got an incoming patch, so next round of testing I'll probably use the free PTR resources to test with / without acceleration & module and see what that gains me.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

I checked my stats; my average damage, spotting, etc, etc is almost identical to Shokaku - so in that respect the Lex isn't underperforming on paper.

If you keep an eye out on which BB used DCP, you might get more damage. 

But... here's the thing: get a few div-mates, they'll keep you posted. 

THAT way you can deliver massive damage - AND they can finish them off, if needed. 

Lexi is MUCH stronger than Shokek when in a division.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

I'd be tempted to say "not all damage is equal, fires can be healed up completely given time and resources - and pretty much everyone, including DDs now, get healing by the T8-10 battlegroup", but going through the stats very little of the damage I'm applying is fires sticking.

Yes, that IS the problem. you'll be shipping plenty sheep to RNGesus.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

However, as I'm wanting to hit bigger targets as much as possible (getting 3x Torp hits on anything nimble is less reliable than getting 2-4 Shokaku torp hits on the same targets; HE bombs will bracket smaller ships even under ideal circumstances, the HVAR recticule and TiT dispersions are massive), that damage is far less valuable than getting consistent hits on DDs for less damage, and less valuable than getting krakens and removing threats from the game altogether.

Yup. The problem is, you cannot reliably kill stuff except DDs. Maybe cruisers.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

My winrate's recovering a bit, probably assisted by me finally getting Survival Expert skilled in; but it's still half-a-dozen wins off going positive again, and I can't help but think if it were as good at nuking DDs as Shokaku I'd be in the mid-60% winrate just like I am with her.

I'm over 70 with Ryujo, because of the AP bombs. 

You see a (large) threat, you can delete it. Makes wins.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

My PTR account just got an incoming patch, so next round of testing I'll probably use the free PTR resources to test with / without acceleration & module and see what that gains me.

You already summed it up though. There's a trade-off. Yes the torps will get faster. 

The thing is, they have "activation timer". As a consequence, the distance they need to be in the water before they activate gets longer.

I usually drop them on broadside parked targets. Come up unseen (and not get AA...) and drop because they are just a bit TOO far from the island.

Or drop them really close... when you have faster torps, they do not activate. 

 

I'm gonna grind Hakuryu because for next CB. I dunno which is better (do you have it?).

Midway should do better because of team-coordination, then again, whacking a few AP bombs on a cruiser... hmmm...

On Midway I use TiTs rockets, whacking cruisers for 10+K in one go. He bombs work fine as well. 

It's not THAT good on Dds though - we'll see if the IJN is better. 

 

Happy hunting!

[Ace42X]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I'm gonna grind Hakuryu because for next CB. I dunno which is better (do you have it?).

Midway should do better because of team-coordination, then again, whacking a few AP bombs on a cruiser... hmmm...

On Midway I use TiTs rockets, whacking cruisers for 10+K in one go. He bombs work fine as well. 

It's not THAT good on Dds though - we'll see if the IJN is better. 

 

Happy hunting!

I've got Hak on my main account, it's pretty much a "straight up better" Shokaku.  Shokaku I have to remember which T10s can't be cit'd; not so much with Hak.
Midway I've played on the PTR, I found it to be "fine, I guess" - mainly because of the extra torps - but I've not really spent a lot of time on it.  I suspect the experience I'm getting on Lex will improve my Midway performance too.

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I'm over 70 with Ryujo, because of the AP bombs.

76% here, but not a lot of battles played in it for some reason - I must've found a load of freeXP from somewhere <shrug>.

[BLUB__BLUB]

23 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

I've got Hak on my main account, it's pretty much a "straight up better" Shokaku.  Shokaku I have to remember which T10s can't be cit'd; not so much with Hak.
Midway I've played on the PTR, I found it to be "fine, I guess" - mainly because of the extra torps - but I've not really spent a lot of time on it.  I suspect the experience I'm getting on Lex will improve my Midway performance too.

Yes regarding the rockets and HE-bombs Midway is a bit similar but stronger.

Torps require even more aiming though. But the FAT rockets... have to be seen to be believed.

 

23 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

76% here, but not a lot of battles played in it for some reason - I must've found a load of freeXP from somewhere <shrug>.

I haven't many battles in in either, it just generates that much XP with those citadels.

I suppose Hakuryu will not take me long to grind... Shokek doing fine. I'd say it is stronger than Lexi, haven't fully spaded it yet though.

(*still not strong enough to save this game though, and I even capped, and was capping the second CP...).

I sunk a Kutuzov, and almost two more cruisers, whacked Akizuki (but he lived, man he was good) and harvested some BBs.

Nothing extra-special but good, I think. 

 

 

 

 

[Ace42X]

Got three High Calibers today, nearly got a few Krakens too; now I've got Midway unlocked.  I've slotted +plane speed on her just because I had a spare one sitting around already - although I'm thinking +HP might've been better, even though US planes are slow and probably need all the speed they can, just because having dive-bombers survive longer in the hotzone is the difference between alpha and no alpha.

** update **
First game in Midway (stock), got a Kraken.