Bismarck and Tirpitz - Barely tier VIII in 0.9.2.0

[pissBoiler]

Well met, Captains!

 

I genuinely wonder what is going on in Wargamings minds as of right now. 

 

I play a lot of Bismarck and Tirpitz, for no other reason that they are pretty and brawling is fun. Win or lose, it was always a laugh. 

 

- Can anyone tell me what the heck happened in this patch? 

 

They have turned unplayable, utterly unplayable. The claimed buff in 9.2 for their 152s and 105s are not to be seen anywhere, in fact I am doing less damage than ever with secs.

 

My main observation however is the main battery. Dispersion is literally the worst since I joined the game this november. Hitting anything, stationary even, at 15-20 range is impossible. Not random, not difficult - Impossible. Worse still, is the damage mechanics. I rarely ever get a clean pen hit on any target, be it DD, CA, BB or even CV - Everything is just bounces and overpens. It's also bordering to unrealistic. From my last game I'll give you 3 examples, going around an island and into a brawl full HP (that I could barely survice but with real chance to sink 2-3 ships)

 

- Freddy the Gross, full HP:  Slips away behind island going elsewhere, I have one single head on open shot on his broadside 12 km:

- Only 2 of 4 AP hits (other 2 goes dispersing grossly despite the short distance), hits his main belt (he is a fatty of a BB) and they .... OVERPEN, 1150 HP each. 

 

- Gearing DD, half HP: Rounding the island on my left, he suddenly gets spotted on my right, about 7-8km out (ish), my secs open up. My aft 2 mains gets as snapshot off, he can't acc quick enough and catches one midships:

-  it BOUNCES, about 15-30 degree angle from midships

 

- Roma 1/3 HP: My main target, I have him around the island on the left, bow to me, stationary, the angle opening fast (I am at 25+ knots): I shot 3 salvoes of 4+8+8 AP shells:

- First 4 just BOUNCE  of his low belt and superstructure

- Next 8 has a max angle of 30 degree from full broadside, all 8 hit his main belt and BOUNCE.

- Last 8 is a point blank, full broadside: all hit his main belt: 5 just BOUNCE (!!!), 2 OVERPEN and 1 Citadels him, and he sinks from that one hit + 2 torps + secondaries. 

 

Game mechanics like this in a game built on complex physics is just unplayable. 380mm AP shells first overpenning a huge steel block, then bouncing of a tin can destroyer? 

[Miragetank90]

18 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

 

- Can anyone tell me what the heck happened in this patch? 

 

 

To answer your question, absolutely nothing happened/was changed about them, other than their secondaries, which got a slight buff. 

 

For example, you can now penetrate certain USN BBs deck, upper belt, and side plating(38mm) with the 150mm secondaries now(w/o IFHE). i.e, Iowa, Montana, etc.

[pissBoiler]

6 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

To answer your question, absolutely nothing happened/was changed about them, other than their secondaries, which got a slight buff. 

 

For example, you can now penetrate certain USN BBs deck, upper belt, and side plating(38mm) with the 150mm secondaries now(w/o IFHE). i.e, Iowa, Montana, etc.

 

That is odd, because the secs perform roughly less, but that doesn't explain why mains have stopped producing damage overnight. 

[ColonelPete]

24 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

They have turned unplayable, utterly unplayable.

Do not worry, that is on you.

And yes, their dispersion was even improved since November...

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200321/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

 

[pissBoiler]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Do not worry, that is on you.

And yes, their dispersion was even improved since November...

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200321/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

 

 

Not sure I understand - where does it say anything about damage mechs and dispersion?

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

 

Not sure I understand - where does it say anything about damage mechs and dispersion?

• Mechs are found in a differend game
• dispersion change is found in patch notes
• the performance statistic was posted to show you that the ship is not unplayable
• Bismarck is the most played ship on the server in the past two months, that is VERY FAR from unplayable

[pissBoiler]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

• Mechs are found in a differend game
• dispersion change is found in patch notes
• the performance statistic was posted to show you that the ship is not unplayable
•  Bismarck is the most played ship on the server in the past two months, that is VERY FAR from unplayable

 

Well, it certainly is my most played ship along with Tirpitz, and as I wrote to great fun - my post regards what the heck was changed in the very latest patch? The ships are not nearly the same anymore. 

[ColonelPete]

12 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

 

Well, it certainly is my most played ship along with Tirpitz, and as I wrote to great fun - my post regards what the heck was changed in the very latest patch? The ships are not nearly the same anymore. 

The performance of the ship did not really change since the patch. Winrate went up slightly, average damage went down by around 500 (less than 1%), kills stayed the same, hitrating went up a bit.

 

Bismarck did not get changed, apart from some very slight improvements.

Some cruisers got plating improvements, which reward angling, but as written, that has no influence on her performance.

[lafeel]

11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Some cruisers got plating improvements, which reward angling, but as written, that has no influence on her performance.

If it did, wouldn't a similar effect also be seen on the Monarch, Richie, Gascogne, Vanguard, and Roma seeing as they share a similar enough a gun caliber to be affected by that in the same way?

[Miragetank90]

5 hours ago, YidDogg said:

The ships are not nearly the same anymore. 

 

I don't mean anything bad, but every so often we get similar threads in here, saying ''X ship feels different now since patch'' or something along those lines, when the ship in question wasn't impacted at all in that patch. 

So, I'm thinking it's probably confirmation bias on your part, or a string of bad rng instances making it seem worse, when it in fact, isn't. 

 

As for the instances described in the replays, it's difficult for anyone to comment on these without seeing it for ourselves. 

 

I will say, however, that it's impossible for 380mm guns to bounce off a Gearing, since 380mm AP over-matches all armour 25mm and below.  (EDIT: Well, I guess 26mm and below now, since 26mm became a thing)

[kodos]

Don't know, played a game today with the Tirpitz, for me everything seems to be fine

 

[pissBoiler]

3 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

I don't mean anything bad, but every so often we get similar threads in here, saying ''X ship feels different now since patch'' or something along those lines, when the ship in question wasn't impacted at all in that patch. 

So, I'm thinking it's probably confirmation bias on your part, or a string of bad rng instances making it seem worse, when it in fact, isn't. 

 

As for the instances described in the replays, it's difficult for anyone to comment on these without seeing it for ourselves. 

 

I will say, however, that it's impossible for 380mm guns to bounce off a Gearing, since 380mm AP over-matches all armour 25mm and below.  

 

My thought exactly.

 

Yet it happened and happens all over the place since the update.

 

Just left a game 5 mins ago, brawled a Puerto Rico, he just bounced the rounds until I was approx 15-20 into from a full 90 degree of his broadside: Then the next salvo overpenned. 

 

Unbelievable. 

[Miragetank90]

1 minute ago, YidDogg said:

 

My thought exactly.

 

Yet it happened and happens all over the place since the update.

 

 

Puerto Rico has a minimum of 27mm of armour on the hull.

 

11 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

 

Just left a game 5 mins ago, brawled a Puerto Rico, he just bounced the rounds until I was approx 15-20 into from a full 90 degree of his broadside: Then the next salvo overpenned. 

 

Unbelievable. 

 

If you're brawling, I assume you're at close range. If you had a good enough angle to damage his broadside without bouncing, then you should not have issues with overpen on a PR if you know where to aim. 

 

For example, aiming for the centre of mass will result in less overpens than if you aim too far forward in the bow area, or too far aft. Aiming too high is also going to give you more chances to overpen than if you had aimed lower, closer to the waterline. 

 

Of course, RNG is a thing, so depending on range your shells don't always hit the mark exactly. 

[pissBoiler]

Just now, Miragetank90 said:

 

Puerto Rico has a minimum of 27mm of armour on the hull.

 

 

If you're brawling, I assume you're at close range. If you had a good enough angle to damage his broadside without bouncing, then you should not have issues with overpen on a PR if you know where to aim. 

 

For example, aiming for the centre of mass will result in less overpens than if you aim too far forward in the bow area, or too far aft. Aiming too high is also going to give you more chances to overpen than if you had aimed lower, closer to the waterline. 

 

Of course, RNG is a thing, so depending on range your shells don't always hit the mark exactly. 

 

Well, that is kind of the problem. It does happen. 

 

Also "met" a Nagato, we tangled in less than 4 kms in the end. Aimed high, overpenned. Aimed low, torp protection hit. Every single time. From 5-6 salvos had 0 pens, only overpens and torp-protection hits/bounces. 

 

Still, the mechanics are way off. Might be the gun rather than the crap. Didn't test the Gneisenau, but the Bayern seems sort of OK. 

 

The ship simply doesn't perform like it used to, and even just teeing up with same tier ships seems a chore. 

[Miragetank90]

1 minute ago, YidDogg said:

 

Well, that is kind of the problem. 

 

Also "met" a Nagato, we tangled in less than 4 kms in the end. 

 

Aimed high, overpenned. Aimed low, torp protection hit. 

 

Still, the mechanics are way off. Might be the gun rather than the crap. Didn't test the Gneisenau, but the Bayern seems sort of OK. 

 

I think there are some guides on youtube which explain aiming and AP shells in greater detail, so I'd recommend looking these up if you're having problems, they might help. 

But know that there's nothing wrong with these mechanics, or Bismarck/Tirp guns for that matter. They perform just fine. 

 

It seems to me you just need practice and some more knowledge is all. 

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

Also "met" a Nagato, we tangled in less than 4 kms in the end. Aimed high, overpenned. Aimed low, torp protection hit. Every single time. From 5-6 salvos had 0 pens, only overpens and torp-protection hits/bounces. 

 

Still, the mechanics are way off. Might be the gun rather than the crap. Didn't test the Gneisenau, but the Bayern seems sort of OK. 

 

The ship simply doesn't perform like it used to, and even just teeing up with same tier ships seems a chore. 

As said, that is a personal issue.

Maybe upload a replay and we can tell you what is going wrong.

Your replays can be found in your replay folder in your wows folder.

[pissBoiler]

2 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

I think there are some guides on youtube which explain aiming and AP shells in greater detail, so I'd recommend looking these up if you're having problems, they might help. 

But know that there's nothing wrong with these mechanics, or Bismarck/Tirp guns for that matter. They perform just fine. 

 

It seems to me you just need practice and some more knowledge is all. 

 

Oh I def need both practice and knowledge - Don't one always.

 

This is not the point though - what is the point is that both worked perfectly fine, and then overnight after the patch they don't while other ships seem more or less the same. 

[lafeel]

Took a little bit of digging around, but here's a game that shows Bismarck is just fine. @YidDogg

[pissBoiler]

On 3/22/2020 at 2:39 AM, lafeel said:

Took a little bit of digging around, but here's a game that shows Bismarck is just fine. @YidDogg

This was roughly my performance before the patch. More importantly though (remember I am a casual gamer) it was FUN. 

 

Now not so much, unfortunately. 

 

Still great fun playing the TX games on the Hindenburg and grinding the UK and US cruiser lines. But the Bismarck and the Tirpitz are just so very unplayable map after map. 

[HaachamaShipping]

13 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

This was roughly my performance before the patch. More importantly though (remember I am a casual gamer) it was FUN. 

 

Now not so much, unfortunately. 

 

Still great fun playing the TX games on the Hindenburg and grinding the UK and US cruiser lines. But the Bismarck and the Tirpitz are just so very unplayable map after map. 

Fun is a subjective experience.

[pissBoiler]

1 hour ago, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

Fun is a subjective experience.

Well, damage mechs are not. 

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, YidDogg said:

Well, damage mechs are not. 

No, they are not, but whether a ship is fun or not does not have any importance on what tier it is. Otherwise, I don't like playing Stalingrad, so should it be T9?

[rnat]

13 hours ago, YidDogg said:

This was roughly my performance before the patch. [...]

 

Now not so much, unfortunately. 

Unless most of your matches in both ships were after the patch allow me to call BS on that. The result lafeel posted isn't that far off from your best performance in those ships and far from your average.

Funnily enough you set new personal records for both damage done and exp earned in the Bismarck and Tirpitz respectively just 3 days ago, which is very much after the patch that made them "unplayable".

[lafeel]

4 hours ago, YidDogg said:

This was roughly my performance before the patch. More importantly though (remember I am a casual gamer) it was FUN. 

In case the date isn't enough of a hint, this game was post patch.

[pissBoiler]

On 3/23/2020 at 3:25 PM, Bunny_Lover_Kallen said:

No, they are not, but whether a ship is fun or not does not have any importance on what tier it is. Otherwise, I don't like playing Stalingrad, so should it be T9?

 

It doesn't play like a Tier8 anymore - compared to other T8's.