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Are You Struggling with Pan European DD's, here is why

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Are you struggling with Pan European DD's 

 

I think I have the answer as to why based on the four most important factors (HP Pool, Speed, Base Concealment and smoke).  WG have insisted that these destroyers have good concealment, however after analysing all the silver destroyers given the data in the wiki, I have come to the conclusion that the concealment is at mediocre and the fact that the destroyers are also comparatively slow for there tiers apart from the T5 and T6 versions we then have a problem because they do not have smoke and are slow to run away.  Ignoring the torpedos beccause these have also been hampered with only narrow or super narrow options available which tends to impact the torpedo hit rate as most ships can avoid narrow spreads even if they are super fast.  We come to the first major down turn for these destroyers - low HP pool (I know you are going to say they have heal, but what good is a heal if the enemy can find you half a map away and you are too slow to run from them)

 

When these ships are all in game there will be 55 ships, 8 at T5, 9 at T6, T7 and T8 and 10 at T9 and T10

 

Given the factors above I have analysed each tier based on the base statistics and the maximum HP pool available with the best results getting the highest percentage score and the worst getting the lowest percentage score for each of the four categories and I have then averaged the score across the 4 categories to get the effectiveness of any given ship.

 

These values are just the standard values and do not take into account upgrades and commander skills otherwise the tables would be immense for each tier 

 

T5 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Mutsuki 11300 5 50.00% 37.5 3 75.00% Yes 1 100.00% 6.2 1 100.00% 81.25%
Nicholas 13100 2 87.50% 37 4 62.50% Yes 1 100.00% 6.66 3 75.00% 81.25%
Podvoisky 12700 3 75.00% 42 1 100.00% yes 1 100.00% 7.74 8 12.50% 71.88%
T-22 11300 5 50.00% 34.5 8 12.50% Yes 1 100.00% 6.52 2 87.50% 62.50%
Visby 9600 8 12.50% 39 2 87.50% No 8 12.50% 6.82 4 62.50% 43.75%
Acasta 11200 7 25.00% 35 7 25.00% Yes 1 100.00% 6.84 5 50.00% 50.00%
Jianwie 12500 4 62.50% 37 4 62.50% Yes 1 100.00% 6.84 5 50.00% 68.75%
Jaguar 16600 1 100.00% 35.5 6 37.50% No 8 12.50% 7.2 7 25.00% 43.75%

 

As you can see, the absence of smoke has a negative effect on results with Visby and Jaguar shring last place

 

 

T6

 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Fubuki 12900 5 55.60% 35 9 11.20% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 3 77.80% 61.15%
Hatsuhamu 11700 8 22.30% 36.5 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 6.66 1 100.00% 72.25%
Farragut 11500 9 11.20% 36.5 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 7.56 7 33.40% 52.83%
Gnevny 14100 3 77.80% 38 1 100.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 3 77.80% 88.90%
Gaede 16500 2 88.90% 36 6 44.50% Yes 1 100.00% 7.56 7 33.40% 66.70%
Vasteras 12100 6 44.50% 38 1 100.00% No 8 22.30% 7.06 6 44.50% 52.83%
Icarus 12100 6 44.50% 35.5 8 22.30% Yes 1 100.00% 6.84 2 88.90% 63.93%
Fushun 14100 3 77.80% 38 1 100.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 3 77.80% 88.90%
Guepard 17200 1 100.00% 36 6 44.50% No 8 22.30% 7.74 9 11.20%

44.50%

 

 

 

 

T7 

 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Akatsuki 13100 7 33.40% 38 2 88.90% Yes 1 100.00% 7.38 5 55.60% 69.48%
Shiratsuyu 12800 9 11.20% 34 8 22.30% Yes 1 100.00% 6.66 1 100.00% 58.38%
Mahan 14100 6 44.50% 35 7 33.40% Yes 1 100.00% 7.64 7 33.40% 52.83%
Minsk 15100 3 77.80% 43 1 100.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.74 8 22.30% 75.03%
Maass 17500 2 88.90% 37 3 77.80% Yes 1 100.00% 7.74 8 22.30% 72.25%
Skane 13000 8 22.30% 35 7 33.40% No 8 22.30% 7.06 3 77.80% 38.95%
Jervis 14300 4 66.70% 36 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 7.2 4 66.70% 75.03%
Gadjah Mada 14300 4 66.70% 36 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 2 88.90% 80.58%
Vauquelin 18100 1 100.00% 36 4 66.70% No 8 22.30% 7.56 6 44.50% 58.38%

 

 

T8

 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Akisuki 20400 1 100.00% 33 9 11.20% Yes 1 100.00% 7.76 7 33.40% 61.15%
Kagero 15100 8 22.30% 35 7 33.40% Yes 1 100.00% 6.84 1 100.00% 63.93%
Benson 15400 7 33.40% 38 2 88.90% Yes 1 100.00% 7.38 3 77.80% 75.03%
Ognevoi 16100 4 66.70% 37 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 7.74 6 44.50% 69.48%
Z-23 19500 2 88.90% 37 4 66.70% Yes 1 100.00% 7.92 8 22.30% 69.48%
Oland 14100 9 11.20% 35 7 33.40% No 8 22.30% 7.42 5 55.60% 30.63%
Lightning 15900 5 55.60% 36 6 44.50% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 2 88.90% 72.25%
HsienYang 15500 6 44.50% 37.5 3 77.80% Yes 1 100.00% 7.38 3 77.80% 75.03%
Le Fantasque 18500 3 77.80% 42.7 1 100.00% No 8 22.30% 8.18 9 11.20% 52.83%

 

T9

 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Yugumo 15500 10 10.00% 35.5 8 30.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.02 1 100.00% 60.00%
Kitikaze 20700 2 90.00% 36 7 40.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.56 5 60.00% 72.50%
Fletcher 17100 7 40.00% 36.5 6 50.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.38 4 70.00% 65.00%
Udaloi 18800 5 60.00% 40 3 80.00% Yes 1 100.00% 9.2 8 30.00% 67.50%
Tashkent 21800 1 100.00% 42.5 2 90.00% Yes 1 100.00% 9.4 9 20.00% 77.50%
Z--46 19900 4 70.00% 37.5 5 60.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.56 5 60.00% 72.50%
Ostergotland 15800 9 20.00% 35 9 20.00% No 8 20.00% 7.62 7 40.00% 25.00%
Jutland 18400 6 50.00% 34 10 10.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.25 3 80.00% 60.00%
ChungMu 17100 7 4.00% 38 4 70.00% Opt 1 100.00% 7.2 2 90.00% 66.00%
Mogador 20200 3 80.00% 43.5 1 100.00% No 8 20.00% 9.54 10 10.00% 52.50%

 

T10

 

Name  HPPool     Speed     Smoke     B/Con     Average
Kleber 21900 3 80.00% 44 1 100.00% No 8 20.00% 9.88 9 20.00% 55.00%
YueYang 18500 9 20.00% 36.5 6 50.00% Opt 1 100.00% 7.42 2 90.00% 65.00%
Daring 20800 5 60.00% 35 9 20.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.6 4 70.00% 62.50%
Halland 19200 8 30.00% 35 9 20.00% No 8 20.00% 7.62 5 60.00% 32.50%
Z-52 20300 6 50.00% 37.5 5 60.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.74 7 40.00% 62.50%
Khabarovsk 22500 2 90.00% 43 2 90.00% Yes 1 100.00% 10 10 10.00% 72.50%
Grozovoi 20900 4 70.00% 39.5 3 80.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.62 5 60.00% 77.50%
Gearing  19400 7 40.00% 36 7 40.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.56 3 80.00% 65.00%
Harugumo 25600 1 100.00% 35.7 8 30.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.92 8 30.00% 65.00%
Shimakaze 17900 10 10.00% 39 4 70.00% Yes 1 100.00% 7.11 1 100.00% 70.00%

 

 

 

 

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You cannot compare ships like that.

Mutsuki, Nicholas and T22 are the weakest Tier V DD by performance, while you rate them highly.

 

Wait for the server performance data.

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The ships have been out a week and just for some. Most are still learing how to play them, including me. It's too soon to draw conclusions.

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43 minutes ago, pzkpfwv1d said:

based on the four most important factors (HP Pool, Speed, Base Concealment and smoke). 

 

What about

  • gun power (range, ballistics, dpm, alpha, penetration, fire chance, improved AP angles, etc.)
  • torpedo power (range, speed, concealment, alpha, targets, flooding chance, etc.)
  • radar
  • maneuverability and size

You didn't even factor in the friggin repair party, when you were comparing HP.

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I appreciate the effort, its just the lack of stats makes it hard to do a proper comparison atm.

Still i would wait for about 2 weeks maybe a month to get a decent comparison.

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50 minutes ago, Hanse77SWE said:

The ships have been out a week and just for some. Most are still learing how to play tem, including me. It's too soon to draw conclusions.

 

Usually that means it's the very best players who're using them, if they're struggling to be effective then something is very wrong.

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Vor 1 Minute, Capra76 sagte:

 

Usually that means it's the very best players who're using them, if they're struggling to be effective then something is very wrong.

This is not always the case or are you going to say that every whale you bought PR is a unicum? 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Usually that means it's the very best players who're using them, if they're struggling to be effective then something is very wrong.

then we will see that in the performance stats next weekend

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6 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Usually that means it's the very best players who're using them, if they're struggling to be effective then something is very wrong.

Yeah especially an Ostergotland charging into Smolensk behind an island to torp him ignoring the sonar and getting blapped ... that’s so much best play ever. And then you look at his performance on other ships and you have an answer. Testers didn’t impact those stats unlike what happened with Indomitable. 

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1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

You cannot compare ships like that.

Mutsuki, Nicholas and T22 are the weakest Tier V DD by performance, while you rate them highly.

 

Wait for the server performance data.

Wait until you've played a 'Visby'.... makes the ones you mention look amazing....

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6 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Yeah especially an Ostergotland charging into Smolensk behind an island to torp him ignoring the sonar and getting blapped ... that’s so much best play ever.

 

Presumably that's a single player, my comment applies in aggregate.

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1 ora fa, pzkpfwv1d ha scritto:

Ignoring the torpedos beccause these have also been hampered with only narrow or super narrow options available which tends to impact the torpedo hit rate 

 

I think you made a typo error: not having the wide spread INCREASES your torpedo hit rate :Smile_glasses:

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27 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Wait until you've played a 'Visby'.... makes the ones you mention look amazing....

I played her...

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1 hour ago, __Helmut_Kohl__ said:

 

What about

  • gun power (range, ballistics, dpm, alpha, penetration, fire chance, improved AP angles, etc.)
  • torpedo power (range, speed, concealment, alpha, targets, flooding chance, etc.)
  • radar
  • maneuverability and size

You didn't even factor in the friggin repair party, when you were comparing HP.

I covered the repair party in the text "You are going to say what about the heal. What good is a heal if the enemy can find you half a map away and you are too slow to run away"

This also goes for the other points that you raised, if you are too slow to run away and the enemy can see you long before you are able to see them wheat good is having excellent torpedoes etc if you are dead before you can engage with them

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1 hour ago, Bics93 said:

 

I think you made a typo error: not having the wide spread INCREASES your torpedo hit rate :Smile_glasses:

No, I mean eactly what I have said, I have seen the enemy ships turn inside the torpedo angle on normal spread and even comb the torpedos with two spreads going either side of the ship if the wide spread was available, there is a greater chance of one of the torpedos actually hitting the enemy rather than all of the torpedos missing, and this is with the torpedo indicator giving the best angles for firing 

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1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

Usually that means it's the very best players who're using them, if they're struggling to be effective then something is very wrong.

Not the best.

 

The richest and the luckiest.

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13 minuti fa, pzkpfwv1d ha scritto:

if the wide spread was available, there is a greater chance of one of the torpedos actually hitting the enemy rather than all of the torpedos missing

 

Widespread are much less effective at hitting targets, if your prediction ability is poor and you don’t feel confident about your skill, sure, you can throw torps randomly in the enemy general direction and hope for some hits :cap_book:

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1 hour ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Wait until you've played a 'Visby'.... makes the ones you mention look amazing....

I've played it, it's not bad actually.

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3 minutes ago, Europizza said:

I've played it, it's not bad actually.

It could do with a concealment buff, I think. It would do better with base concealment of about 6.6/6.5, so it could do more sniping. That would be better balanced, because you'd be able to pick off damaged ships but would have a problem if you got too close to full health ones (as you're not going to wipe them out...)

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Got the Visby today... put the 16 point captain from my Blysckrawhisky (can't properly spell that name...) in it...

 6 battles played. 83.33% (solo) winrate. 26k average damage (not a lot, but I'm still learning how to use it..). Only 4 sinkers, but those were mostly other DDs (with Visbys among them *cough*).

 

So... yeah, I might count as an experienced potato...

I don't expect that winrate to stay like that, but the Visby doesn't feel weak to me.

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First game in Visby. Seems quite strong imo. Fast stealth torps, guns seem decent, it's manoeuvrable and concealment is good, the ship is very fast with speed boost and it got heals as a tier 5 dd! It almost seems OP just looking at these features.

 

edit: played it with a mandatory 10p captain

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17 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Got the Visby today... put the 16 point captain from my Blysckrawhisky (can't properly spell that name...) in it...

 6 battles played. 83.33% (solo) winrate. 26k average damage (not a lot, but I'm still learning how to use it..). Only 4 sinkers, but those were mostly other DDs (with Visbys among them *cough*).

 

So... yeah, I might count as an experienced potato...

I don't expect that winrate to stay like that, but the Visby doesn't feel weak to me.

Try it with the 3 pt captain that WG provide and see how bad it is 

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They have a high skill ceiling but seem usable. I agree that the torpedo damage on the Visby is crap, especially because you go against TVII often. The only thing that is false advertising on WG's part is "strong AA". The VIII struggles even against TVI CVs with priority sector and defensive AA on. Laughable. Don't even talking about TVIII CVs or TX CVs both of which it meets regularly due to fun&engaging(tm) matchmaking.

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42 minutes ago, pzkpfwv1d said:

Try it with the 3 pt captain that WG provide and see how bad it is 

Oooh, it's that. You play all DDs with 3-point captains. Now I understand.

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I am starting to like the Västeras...

 

I have rarely gotten high scores in them, unfortunately, though not surprisingly.

 

- Wide spread vs narrow spread: IMHO I have seen too many ships turn inside of these torpedo's. If you want any decent chance of hitting anything, you either have to get WAAAAAAAY into spotting range, or have to torp an absolute potato.

- Heal is nice, but when hit by a half-decent cruiser salvo, it does not do too much, unfortunately.

- Guns are okayish, unfortunately when dodging, the ship out-turns them very quickly, and they are relatively slow.

 

With a 3p captain, to start with, concealment is absolutely atrocious, even with camo - and this is a massive handicap when trying to engage other DD's...

 

Basically forget playing normal DD, kite a lot, and be very choosy about when you want to engage the enemy.... especially when there are other ships around.

 

 

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