General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Andrewbassg said:

Nothing really :) I just pointed out that nuclear or atomic warfare WAS part of (past?) naval doctrines. Not that I have (any) desire to see that in the game:)

Of second world war? Can't remember that ^^

[Andrewbassg]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Of second world war? Can't remember that ^^

Ofc not, but... the latest "procurements" to the game and TX  generally tend to "blur" that line. Don't you agree?

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

We Obviously Disagree lol

But its at least nice we both make Detailed Statements. This way its easier to wrap things up.

I know you like detailed. It is a bit hard for me to read it back because you use numbers and do not quote.

I can't be exactly sure what part you are reacting to.

 

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1.

I Disagree. And as you Said. I think when it comes to the Question of what a Good CV Player should do. I have the Upper hand. 

Well. Obviously if you want to be the best CV, and if you have the talent for it, you need to do as you do. 

But that's not the point. Firstly, it is beyond my possibility as you are way better.

Secondly, it is not purely about being the best CV, but about CV-teamwork.

Which you say is not relevant, and I try to show you it is quite relevant if you are not that good.

 

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2.

Then Sorry. But I think your Wrong ;) 

You will NEVER get this kind of Result without Teamplay unless your in a CV :)

Hey mate. I'm not that good - and I don't mind. I'm quite savvy and I'll outplay the average. 

But I will NEVER get a decent WR in Ark Royal in weekends unless I do teamplay.

Because simply, I cannot carry hard enough to make that difference, it needs DoT.

I need longer games to do any actual meaningful damage, and doesn't have the alpha to stop a ROFLSTOMP.

 

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3.

Nope. Dont get me wrong here. But this is the thing which is wrong with WGs Spreadsheet. Small Calculation for you. We assume 2 Ships and 10100 Players (the strange number is to make maths simple)

On Ship A the 10.000 Average Players get an Average Performance of 1500 Points. While the 100 Unicums get a Rating of 1800 Points.

On Ship B the 10.000 Average Players get an Average Performance of 1400 Points. While the 100 Unicums however get a Freaking 2500 Points.

Now to me and hopefully also to you it should be absolutely Obviousl That Ship B is likely a bit Harder to Play but also Massively more Powerful than Ship A. This is basicly Sinop in Ranked right now.

But what does Spreadsheet Say ? What is the Opinion if we only look at the Average Guys and Weekend Players ?

Ship A has 10.000x1500+100x1800 and Ship B gets 10.000x1400+100x2500.

So according to Spreadsheet. Ship A has a Performance of Average 1502 Points. Meanwhile Ship B actually Shows a Performance of only 1410 Points.

Meaning that Clearly Ship B still needs to be Buffed according to this Viewpoint your telling me to Consider :)

I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. CVs are broken. Means if a good player gets his hands on it, they are OP AF.

Also - it is not even the point. And no I'm not telling you to consider that point. 

 

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And this is the thing. Right now if the other Classes are usually ranging with the 10.000 Average Players lurking around somewhere on 1200-1700 Points with Unicums sitting on maybe 2000-2500 Points. The 10.000 Average CV Players are lurking around on about 1300 Points while the 100 Unicum CV Players lurk at a freaking 3000-4000 Points already.

And while this might look nice in the Statistics. It is absolutely Terrible in terms of Gameplay Balance. Thats why you should NEVER Balance Purely by Average Statistics.

And THAT I agree, really. We do not disagree that WG have FFd it up. 

We also agree why WG thinks it is "all fine". We both think nope. There is no dispute there.

 

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6.

Nope. That just means the Enemy CV was Potato. Not an Uncommon thing really.

And well. Actually for the CV it is purely between the CVs. Cause everyone else could just as well be Bots. They are just Allied NPCs or Targets anyways.

Well, there's plenty plenty potatoes. But actually, what is a potato then if I am out-damaging them with 25%?

For me it is NOT between the CVs. I will in 75% of the games outdamage the other CV. But to win, I need to team up. 

My potato team will beat that solo unicum. Yes the CV will outdamage me. But he will lose. 

 

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8.

Thing is Mate. THIS IS ABOUT CVs. :)

If this was a Topic about DDs I would not even dare giving out Advice on anything. Because I am absolutely Terrible at Playing them :)

But its not. Its about CVs. And your telling me that I am playing them Wrong. Yet its very Obvious that I am really not ;)

I am NOT telling you you play them wrong. Read it again - you are playing them MUCH better than me. Doesn't mean I am crap though.

However this is also about TEAMPLAY. Which you say you aren't even doing when in a CV. SO, how do you even know it works for the average guy or not?

YOU are saying there is no use for a CV in teamplay. And I am pointing you out there is - if you aren't very good (as in: good like you).

 

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Because the Fact is that Good CV Players are not doing Teamplay. They are Playing to Win and that they Do. Way better than the CVs which try to Teamplay :)

This is Similar to Kakashi in Naruto. The Teamwork of the CV is that the others try not to get into the Way of the CV and thats about it.

The underlined is BS. I get 70%WR in division. Your highest is 67.5 in Ryujo. Around 50% in Ark Royal. 

Your highest damage in Ark is ~80K, mine is 136k. Highest in Ryujo is ~127, mine is 116k. The longer the game, the more damage. 

Fact is that I get higher WR while divisioning than you get when solo. And THAT is the point I am trying to explain to you. 

 

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9.

And Yes lol. I am just that Guy Elazer talked about lol. So are the vast Majority of good CV Players. Because thats what the Mechanics work like.

See Mate. This is Where YOU are Wrong :)

Because this is why I do well in CVs while you Struggle.

I'd not say I struggle. 25% more damage solo than average. But hey. Compared to you the difference is clear. You're the better player.

But this is not why you do well, I don't knoiw why you do. O know why my numbers are like that though. 

Haven't really grafted most CVs and I am a slow learner. I need some GitGud. Part of it is that I usually play on weekends. 

You get lots of ROFLSTOMPS, both ways. And win or lose I can;t get much damage in, in Ark Royal. Ryujo is better. 

 

I have >500 games in Ark Royal though so I'd say I know what is sort of possible. Someday I'll make 200k+. No doubt. 

I'm a bit above average - which is fine for a weekend player. You are like Usain Bolt. I'm the quite untalented local running man. Doesn't mean I don't know anything.

A division slows you down, they might even decrease your damage if they are quite good. As in: Take your kills. It does help me though.

 

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10.

I looked at all your CVs. And I am not Impressed Sorry. Having a Few Exceptions wont change the Full Result.

Also. Mate. Your Ryujo you Played mostly Solo. And actually your Results are way worse in the few Games where you used it in Division.

I'm not sure you are able to interpret those results.

I'd say 64% in Ryujo isn't much below yours, improving as I learn slowly. 

You seem to make of it what you want it to be as well,, I only played a few divs in Ryujo ( (7 in 2, and 3 in 3... and I know with which players). 

But that's beside the point. However good you are. Say take your Ryujo and your 67.5%. My potato division will still kick your butt with 70%.

Well maybe not - but maybe now you'll get the idea. Come down from the hill unicorn, the three teamworking hippos will defeat you.  

 

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11.

As I said. Look at the Results we both get. Then Decide for yourself which Method obviously works better.

Actually that is more a matter of talent, really. I'm usually slow. Can't play DDs worth a damn.

Maybe you should look at the results and see them with a clear mind. I'm not that good. Divving up helps, both me and my divmates.

You are quite good. you say teamwork doesn't help you at all. And this is the point: is teamwork worthless for any CV, no matter good or not?

 

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Also Mate. No Offense your actually Defeating yourself there. Yes Of Course the CV cannot Compensate if his entire Team is Potatoes and just Yoloes into Suicide. A CV is Overpowered but its not God lol. It cant just Defeat the Entire Enemy Team alone. Thing is. The Division Mates he Brings will obviously not be Yoloing Potatoes. So take a guess why his Stats become better there ;) But thats not down to Teamwork. Its just because your Decreasing the Chance of having an all Potato Team by bringing in 2 other Palyers that are Guaranteed not Potatoes.

Then why are your numbers going down when you are in division, unless you are ignoring them?

It is because teamplay doesn't bring YOU any good. It does bring me a few boons, and teammates too.

 

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12.

Of course there is Teamplay lol. But that Teamplay is simply worse than Playing alone lol.

For you, yes. For me it means a little bit less damage, but much higher WR. 

I still usually outdamage the red CV by a landslide, no problem there. 

 

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In case you didnt get this. We are not Saying that a CV cannot Support his Team. We are saying he should not do it. Because it hinders him in doing his Job which is Heavily Decreasing his Chances to Win the Match.

This is the point indeed. My teammates do not have 70%WR, nor do I. But together we can do it. 

Obviously there may be a difference. Once you're very good, it may no longer pay off. 

But... I still beat the other CV, AND we have higher winrate. Which is why I support the idea that teamwork DOES WORK in CVs.

It may cost a bit of damage output. But it increases WR by a lot. 

 

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Think of it as a 1 vs 1 Game where each of you has 11 NPC Targets he has to Kill before the other Guy. Because thats basicly what it is for a CV. Sure you can go ahead and try to Roleplay Protecting your NPCs with Air Cover and Spotting. But during that Time the other Player will gain the Lead on you because even if you manage to Reduce his Damage you yourself will do absolutely no Damage at all in the Meantime. Thanks to which you end up Gimping your own Chances on Victory.

This sure is true. And I do, in a 1vs1 game. I'll be selfish and farm damage.

I'll even let the game drag out longer and farm some more. 

 

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See Mate. You Say I dont understand. But as you correctly noticed already. I am only Unicum in CVs. I am nowhere close to that in other Ships. And I actually also Prioritizing Teamwork in other Ships :)

But we are not talking about other Ships. We are Talking about CVs. And in CVs the Truth is Unfortunately that Teamwork is your absolutely last Priority and should only be done as an side thing when your coincidently there anyways. Because giving it any Priority will make you Play worse :)

I'm still saying you do not quite understand. But I highlighted the point. Think about it. 

That is the point. Not that you are better in CVs than me, which is fact. 

 

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You can Disagree with that. Thats fine. But thats just how it is. And believe me. You yourself could also be way Better in CVs if instead of trying to Support your Team you started to instead just Focusing on taking out the Importand Enemy Targets as fast as possible and not waste Time trying to help your Teammates. And that Includes your Division Mates. If you got 2 Good Div Mates they should just play like they are a Double Division. While you still do the exactly same you would do if your Alone. And believe me. This will actually Work better ;)

The point is, I do better in divs. Teamwork DOES work for me. 

In Ark Royal I make 25% more damage solo than others. However i cannot make enough damage to get over 50% WR. 

Maybe YOU can make that much damage, but i cannot. Therefore, divving up works for me (and my teammates). Almost 70% WR. 

 

Get a clear mind. This is not about how good YOU are in a Cv.

This is about if teamwork with a CV will work or not. 

 

 

 

[Sunleader]

57 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I know you like detailed. It is a bit hard for me to read it back because you use numbers and do not quote.

I can't be exactly sure what part you are reacting to.

 

Well. Obviously if you want to be the best CV, and if you have the talent for it, you need to do as you do. 

But that's not the point. Firstly, it is beyond my possibility as you are way better.

Secondly, it is not purely about being the best CV, but about CV-teamwork.

Which you say is not relevant, and I try to show you it is quite relevant if you are not that good.

 

Hey mate. I'm not that good - and I don't mind. I'm quite savvy and I'll outplay the average. 

But I will NEVER get a decent WR in Ark Royal in weekends unless I do teamplay.

Because simply, I cannot carry hard enough to make that difference, it needs DoT.

I need longer games to do any actual meaningful damage, and doesn't have the alpha to stop a ROFLSTOMP.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. CVs are broken. Means if a good player gets his hands on it, they are OP AF. 

Also - it is not even the point. And no I'm not telling you to consider that point. 

 

And THAT I agree, really. We do not disagree that WG have FFd it up. 

We also agree why WG thinks it is "all fine". We both think nope. There is no dispute there.

 

Well, there's plenty plenty potatoes. But actually, what is a potato then if I am out-damaging them with 25%?

For me it is NOT between the CVs. I will in 75% of the games outdamage the other CV. But to win, I need to team up. 

My potato team will beat that solo unicum. Yes the CV will outdamage me. But he will lose. 

 

I am NOT telling you you play them wrong. Read it again - you are playing them MUCH better than me. Doesn't mean I am crap though.

However this is also about TEAMPLAY. Which you say you aren't even doing when in a CV. SO, how do you even know it works for the average guy or not?

YOU are saying there is no use for a CV in teamplay. And I am pointing you out there is - if you aren't very good (as in: good like you).

 

The underlined is BS. I get 70%WR in division. Your highest is 67.5 in Ryujo. Around 50% in Ark Royal. 

Your highest damage in Ark is ~80K, mine is 136k. Highest in Ryujo is ~127, mine is 116k. The longer the game, the more damage. 

Fact is that I get higher WR while divisioning than you get when solo. And THAT is the point I am trying to explain to you. 

 

I'd not say I struggle. 25% more damage solo than average. But hey. Compared to you the difference is clear. You're the better player.

But this is not why you do well, I don't knoiw why you do. O know why my numbers are like that though. 

Haven't really grafted most CVs and I am a slow learner. I need some GitGud. Part of it is that I usually play on weekends. 

You get lots of ROFLSTOMPS, both ways. And win or lose I can;t get much damage in, in Ark Royal. Ryujo is better. 

 

I have >500 games in Ark Royal though so I'd say I know what is sort of possible. Someday I'll make 200k+. No doubt. 

I'm a bit above average - which is fine for a weekend player. You are like Usain Bolt. I'm the quite untalented local running man. Doesn't mean I don't know anything.

A division slows you down, they might even decrease your damage if they are quite good. As in: Take your kills. It does help me though.

 

I'm not sure you are able to interpret those results.

I'd say 64% in Ryujo isn't much below yours, improving as I learn slowly. 

You seem to make of it what you want it to be as well,, I only played a few divs in Ryujo ( (7 in 2, and 3 in 3... and I know with which players). 

But that's beside the point. However good you are. Say take your Ryujo and your 67.5%. My potato division will still kick your butt with 70%.

Well maybe not - but maybe now you'll get the idea. Come down from the hill unicorn, the three teamworking hippos will defeat you.  

 

Actually that is more a matter of talent, really. I'm usually slow. Can't play DDs worth a damn.

Maybe you should look at the results and see them with a clear mind. I'm not that good. Divving up helps, both me and my divmates.

You are quite good. you say teamwork doesn't help you at all. And this is the point: is teamwork worthless for any CV, no matter good or not?

 

Then why are your numbers going down when you are in division, unless you are ignoring them?

It is because teamplay doesn't bring YOU any good. It does bring me a few boons, and teammates too.

 

For you, yes. For me it means a little bit less damage, but much higher WR. 

I still usually outdamage the red CV by a landslide, no problem there. 

 

This is the point indeed. My teammates do not have 70%WR, nor do I. But together we can do it. 

Obviously there may be a difference. Once you're very good, it may no longer pay off. 

But... I still beat the other CV, AND we have higher winrate. Which is why I support the idea that teamwork DOES WORK in CVs.

It may cost a bit of damage output. But it increases WR by a lot. 

 

This sure is true. And I do, in a 1vs1 game. I'll be selfish and farm damage.

I'll even let the game drag out longer and farm some more. 

 

I'm still saying you do not quite understand. But I highlighted the point. Think about it. 

That is the point. Not that you are better in CVs than me, which is fact. 

 

The point is, I do better in divs. Teamwork DOES work for me. 

In Ark Royal I make 25% more damage solo than others. However i cannot make enough damage to get over 50% WR. 

Maybe YOU can make that much damage, but i cannot. Therefore, divving up works for me (and my teammates). Almost 70% WR. 

 

Get a clear mind. This is not about how good YOU are in a Cv.

This is about if teamwork with a CV will work or not. 

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile I actually dislike the Quoting because it Spreads Points out into several Parts which is Hard to Answer cause it mixes things up.

 

1.

And thats the Mistake. Its not Relevant if your not that Good. Its the reason many People are not that Good. Because it hinders your Performance and thus your Chances to Win.

2.

Which basicly Confirms what I said. The only thing your Div Mates do is effectively decrease the Chance that all your Teammates are Potato and thus get Roflstomped. Div Winrate will often be Higher than Solo simply because you Guarantee 2 less Potatoes in the Team. Nothing to do with Teamwork. You can Check my Stats for that as well. With Triple Division they also Increase Severely. But not because I Teamplay. Simply because the other 2 Guys tend to also be Good (in Fact often better than me)

6.

Damage isnt Damage in this Game unfortunately. Damage needs to be done to the right Targets and need to be Followed up by Kills. But thats not relevant for Teamwork.

Killing an Enemy Fired upon by your Teammates is not Teamwork. Its just an Selfish Opportunity. If he was Attacked by NPC Pirates I would Kill him regardless.

If you want to Outdamage the Enemy thats easy. Just Farm BBs. But that wont get you anyhwere ;) Not because you lack Teamwork. But simply because you Focus the wrong Targets.

8.

Ah so thats what you were Trying to get at. I am Sorry. But that comment will bite you in your own Rear. Ryujo was my First CV after Rework. I was relegated down to it from my Hiryu in RTS.

The Reasons the Stats for it are Worse than the others is because Ryujo and Shokaku were CVs in the Rework which I played only to Grind up to Hakuryo. Back during this Time I still had the same Newbe Notion of trying to Protect my Teammates and trying to Support my Team. I sold both the Shokaku and Ryujo the moment I unlocked the Respective next CV and have never played them again. So I am sorry to tell you. But these CVs would actually Serve to Prove my Point.

Because when I still played them. I was still very Inexperienced with CVs and tried like you to Play by Supporting my Team ;) 

You might not Realize this. But Unicums dont Start out as such ^^ They Start out maybe above Average and then as they Learn to Play they Improve.

So well Yeah. Sorry but for that one the Joke is on you I guess.

9.

Well. I just said this above. But while its True that Talent gives a certain starting bonus. The most Importand part is Learning. If you wanna find out things for yourself thats fine. Its not like I listened to everything the CV Unicums told me Last Year during Summer. And guess what. On a few things like using Secondaries on CVs my Method actually has become more commonplace later even tough back then I was told that this wont work.

But on the vast Majority they were Right with what they told me ;) And you would do well to maybe just try it :)

People Underestimate alot just how much more effective you become at Striking down Relevant Enemies when you Stop wasting time on providing mostly useless Support for your Team.

10.

I think you Misunderstand. I am saying that This CV is the one where your Results are Actually very Good. But the thing is. This is also the CV where you Played Solo.

And the moment you used it in Division your Results Dropped heavily. You clearly perform much much better in it when your Solo.

12.

As I said. Your the one who doesnt Understand in this case. The Reason being in a Div Increases your Winrate is because you Guarantee 2 Players are not Yolo Potatoes. Its got nothing to do with Teamplay.

In Fact I say if you Play in Triple Division with your 2 Friends and you Focus on your Performance instead of trying to Support them. You will get even higher Increases in Winrate. Because your Performance will Increase while their Performance will still be mostly the same.  And that will increase your Chances to Win even further. Because right now. Whats happening is effectively that your Performance gets worse and your Chance to Win Drops. But having 2 Competent Players along Increases the Chances to Win by a Bigger Margin than your Drop in Performance Decreases them. Hence you still get better Winrate despite Playing worse.

If instead you would Play better your Chances to Win would therefore Increase even further.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Meanwhile I actually dislike the Quoting because it Spreads Points out into several Parts which is Hard to Answer cause it mixes things up.

Kinda weird. I think one "reasoning" deserves one answer. 

If I'd do it like you I have no idea. For example, where does the "6" part refer to?

Ah wel. We are getting there. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1.

And thats the Mistake. Its not Relevant if your not that Good. Its the reason many People are not that Good. Because it hinders your Performance and thus your Chances to Win.

But no. I have shown you that with my most relevant CV (500 games...) I do better in divisions.

It is relevant if you are good. 

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Which basicly Confirms what I said. The only thing your Div Mates do is effectively decrease the Chance that all your Teammates are Potato and thus get Roflstomped. Div Winrate will often be Higher than Solo simply because you Guarantee 2 less Potatoes in the Team. Nothing to do with Teamwork. You can Check my Stats for that as well. With Triple Division they also Increase Severely. But not because I Teamplay. Simply because the other 2 Guys tend to also be Good (in Fact often better than me)

But the thing is, you have very little division games. 38 games in Midway, rest less. 3 div 74%, 2div 50%, solo 70,8%. For Kaga 61-57-77. 

It doesn't make much sense with those numbers. Uhhh. One less potato means WR goes down, two les means WR goes up? 

Given the amount of games, it's just gambling and can't be proven. Logically it makes sense though.

But given how good you are, it is kinda weird that I get to 70% as well. 

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

6.

Damage isnt Damage in this Game unfortunately. Damage needs to be done to the right Targets and need to be Followed up by Kills. But thats not relevant for Teamwork.

Killing an Enemy Fired upon by your Teammates is not Teamwork. Its just an Selfish Opportunity. If he was Attacked by NPC Pirates I would Kill him regardless.

If you want to Outdamage the Enemy thats easy. Just Farm BBs. But that wont get you anyhwere ;) Not because you lack Teamwork. But simply because you Focus the wrong Targets.

I know all that. It's not relevant. 

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

8.

Ah so thats what you were Trying to get at. I am Sorry. But that comment will bite you in your own Rear. Ryujo was my First CV after Rework. I was relegated down to it from my Hiryu in RTS.

The Reasons the Stats for it are Worse than the others is because Ryujo and Shokaku were CVs in the Rework which I played only to Grind up to Hakuryo. Back during this Time I still had the same Newbe Notion of trying to Protect my Teammates and trying to Support my Team. I sold both the Shokaku and Ryujo the moment I unlocked the Respective next CV and have never played them again. So I am sorry to tell you. But these CVs would actually Serve to Prove my Point.

Ahem... your stats are BEST OF T6... it is your best WR. Ryujo 67,5 - Furious 62,5-Ranger 52- Ark Royal 50%. ^^^

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Because when I still played them. I was still very Inexperienced with CVs and tried like you to Play by Supporting my Team ;) 

You might not Realize this. But Unicums dont Start out as such ^^ They Start out maybe above Average and then as they Learn to Play they Improve.

So well Yeah. Sorry but for that one the Joke is on you I guess.

I guess you need to take a look and then reconsider what is the joke. Ryujo has better WR than Hakuryu. What joke?

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

9.

Well. I just said this above. But while its True that Talent gives a certain starting bonus. The most Importand part is Learning. If you wanna find out things for yourself thats fine. Its not like I listened to everything the CV Unicums told me Last Year during Summer. And guess what. On a few things like using Secondaries on CVs my Method actually has become more commonplace later even tough back then I was told that this wont work.

But on the vast Majority they were Right with what they told me ;) And you would do well to maybe just try it :)

People Underestimate alot just how much more effective you become at Striking down Relevant Enemies when you Stop wasting time on providing mostly useless Support for your Team.

I've gotten better. Will GitGud, someday.

Why do you have the idea of "useless support" anyway? I do not give useless support. 

We work together to finish as many of the reds as we can. Since WR goes up, it can't be useless support.  

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

10.

I think you Misunderstand. I am saying that This CV is the one where your Results are Actually very Good. But the thing is. This is also the CV where you Played Solo.

And the moment you used it in Division your Results Dropped heavily. You clearly perform much much better in it when your Solo.

Duh. There is a difference between Ark Royal and Ryujo. I think you have noticed it too. 

Which one do you think will get more damage/kills. I'll tell you then.

Ark Royal gets the most damage. Never gets kills (well, sometimes). It is a challenge to do well in it, especially with weekend-ROFLSTOMPS.

Sometimes I get less than 25k because of ROFLSTOMP (win or lose no matter). On an average game 75-100k. But I can't stop a ROFLSTOMP.

Ryujo does get the kills.  It gets them more or less instantly. However it gets less damage. It is also less challenging which is why I don't play it often.

But you can pull harder in Ryujo so I used it a bunch of times to introduce newbies. Which is why WR sinks like a brick in those divs.

 

And there's another thing - you started out by saying you do not care much for stats. And then you started pulling stats. 

Now you think I did very good in Ryujo. You did about the same. And you say you just used it to grind to Hakuryu. 

What do you think I did... 

 

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

12.

As I said. Your the one who doesnt Understand in this case. The Reason being in a Div Increases your Winrate is because you Guarantee 2 Players are not Yolo Potatoes. Its got nothing to do with Teamplay.

In Fact I say if you Play in Triple Division with your 2 Friends and you Focus on your Performance instead of trying to Support them. You will get even higher Increases in Winrate. Because your Performance will Increase while their Performance will still be mostly the same.  And that will increase your Chances to Win even further. Because right now. Whats happening is effectively that your Performance gets worse and your Chance to Win Drops. But having 2 Competent Players along Increases the Chances to Win by a Bigger Margin than your Drop in Performance Decreases them. Hence you still get better Winrate despite Playing worse.

If instead you would Play better your Chances to Win would therefore Increase even further.

Here's (in fat print) the thing you assume wrong. That's why I say start with a clear head. You assume I div up with two 70% players.

Heres the stats of my clan: https://wows-numbers.com/clan/500163086,BBMM-Beer-Belly-Master-Mindz/ and those I usually div up with.

So all of us are more or less ~50%, teamwork is a thing. And I do not mean I try to save them or anything. 

 

In your case, you will get >65% and your teammates will as well. So, if you all work independently, you will get even more as a division.

Simple, because even if you were not in a division and you'd end up with two random 65% players you'd win more often. I get that. 

So for you it doesn't matter (much) if you are in a division or not. But you can't show it much, as you do not have many div-games.

Those that you do have don't show much WR improvement. But I understand the theory.

 

For me, teamwork gives a definite bonus in WR. I think it works. And yes it costs me some damage. But only a bit. 

The damage it costs is when my divvies finish off the ship and I go search for next victim. Sometimes I help them but I also gain from that.

Though not as much as when I'd be farming a big fat BB. But the return is I can count on them to help and not run behind an island. So we win.

We also "focus fire", which means they'll get the advantage - I'll drop on a ship and make fire, he uses DCP. Guess who farms faster. 

Because I pointed them to the fact he used DCP. If I do not, it is me that will set the perma fire, but hey. We win more because it doesn't get wasted as usual in randoms. 

That sort of stuff is what I call teamwork, and it is damn useful. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

@BLUB__BLUB

 

When your individual div members are just average then yes, teamwork, coordination, speaking with each other is mandatory to receive a higher rate. 

for players like me who division with the usual friends all this is barely happening. We mostly play for ourselves as our decision making does not need to be communicated most of the time as we would individually also be successful. 

 

So im glad the communication effort is working out for you guys. 

It's the road to get better at the game. keep trying. 

[steveraptor]

@Sunleader

Why do you even bother at this point....

[BLUB__BLUB]

24 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

@BLUB__BLUB

 

When your individual div members are just average then yes, teamwork, coordination, speaking with each other is mandatory to receive a higher rate. 

This is my idea exactly. However he says teamwork will drag me down as a CV. 

Then I show it to him and he goes "well you are bad". Duh. That is exactly the reason why teamplay is good. 

 

24 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

for players like me who division with the usual friends all this is barely happening. We mostly play for ourselves as our decision making does not need to be communicated most of the time as we would individually also be successful. 

Yes, I understand that. It makes sense. Even of you have 3 non-divved 70%ers on one side they'll win harder than alone. 

Also, if you regularly div up with the same persons you'll know what they do next, and what they want/expect you to do. 

 

24 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

So im glad the communication effort is working out for you guys. 

It's the road to get better at the game. keep trying. 

I hope it does. FWIW even if he'll not get what I mean, you seem to have. And so will others.

I'm sure we'll understand each other though. Might take a while.  

But the important thing is we try and learn. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

trying to learn is at least effort made no matter how slow you are in progressing. 

Better than the guys consistently whining when the game doesn't go their way

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Yoshanai said:

trying to learn is at least effort made no matter how slow you are in progressing. 

Better than the guys consistently whining when the game doesn't go their way

Sometimes I think, well the game has more options to stuff up than to go your way,

so probably it is just their favourite way of passing time. I know some of those people. 

I'm sure you know them too. their coffee is either too hot or too cold, or too late or something. 

[Capra76]

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Of second world war? Can't remember that ^^

 

Quite a few of the in-game ships were destroyed by atomic weapons tests, New York and Prinz Eugen being the ones that come to mind, in an alternative history where Midway or Pearl Harbour go differently and the war drags on into 1946/7 it's not implausible that they might have been used against the IJN in the Pacific.

 

Plus where does it say that this game's timeline ends in 1945?  Jean Bart was comissioned in 1949, the Darings weren't started until 1949, some of the Russians weren't started until the 50's, and a lot of them continued to serve into the 1960's and even beyond.

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, steveraptor said:

@Sunleader

Why do you even bother at this point....

 

Why not ^^

He might be Stubborn but he is actually giving a proper Discussion.

So there is no reason to not try and comvert him to the Cooky Side ^^

 

 

@BLUB__BLUB

I am at work on Smartphone. So I will Answer you wenn I get home.

Its too big for the Phone xD

[CptBarney]

 

Jesus what did i miss in my midway frenzy and assignment mentalness?

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, steveraptor said:

@Sunleader

Why do you even bother at this point....

Because we might learn something from eachother. 

And we are actually able to discuss, unlike others that make it a shouting match. 

 

35 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Why not ^^

He might be Stubborn but he is actually giving a proper Discussion.

So there is no reason to not try and comvert him to the Cooky Side ^^

Take your time, it is not world-threathening. problem is, I am not really a cookie. 

So far I only really hacked into Ark Royal. I wonder what will happen when I really go for the others. 

So far I just grinded them and that's about it. 

 

35 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

@BLUB__BLUB

I am at work on Smartphone. So I will Answer you wenn I get home.

Its too big for the Phone xD

LOL. I bet it will be. 

 

24 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Jesus what did i miss in my midway frenzy and assignment mentalness?

Don;t worry they haven't released miss Yorkie yet. Damn them.

[powerzuff]

@Sunleader

thank you for the advice regarding more selfish CV play, I will try it out.

but why did you choose a azur lane bismark as an avatar and not the white haired gz chick which would suit to your profile much better ;)

 

@BLUB__BLUB

the discussion seems stucked at some point, you should listen to the man with the numbers, just listen ;)

btw. my highest dmg with the Ark Royale is 165 k, sorry, but I couldn't hold it,

but this doesn't make my crappy CV skill any better.

 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Kinda weird. I think one "reasoning" deserves one answer. 

If I'd do it like you I have no idea. For example, where does the "6" part refer to?

Ah wel. We are getting there. 

 

 

But no. I have shown you that with my most relevant CV (500 games...) I do better in divisions.

It is relevant if you are good. 

 

But the thing is, you have very little division games. 38 games in Midway, rest less. 3 div 74%, 2div 50%, solo 70,8%. For Kaga 61-57-77. 

It doesn't make much sense with those numbers. Uhhh. One less potato means WR goes down, two les means WR goes up? 

Given the amount of games, it's just gambling and can't be proven. Logically it makes sense though.

But given how good you are, it is kinda weird that I get to 70% as well. 

 

I know all that. It's not relevant. 

 

Ahem... your stats are BEST OF T6... it is your best WR. Ryujo 67,5 - Furious 62,5-Ranger 52- Ark Royal 50%. ^^^

 

I guess you need to take a look and then reconsider what is the joke. Ryujo has better WR than Hakuryu. What joke?

 

I've gotten better. Will GitGud, someday.

Why do you have the idea of "useless support" anyway? I do not give useless support. 

We work together to finish as many of the reds as we can. Since WR goes up, it can't be useless support.  

 

Duh. There is a difference between Ark Royal and Ryujo. I think you have noticed it too. 

Which one do you think will get more damage/kills. I'll tell you then.

Ark Royal gets the most damage. Never gets kills (well, sometimes). It is a challenge to do well in it, especially with weekend-ROFLSTOMPS.

Sometimes I get less than 25k because of ROFLSTOMP (win or lose no matter). On an average game 75-100k. But I can't stop a ROFLSTOMP.

Ryujo does get the kills.  It gets them more or less instantly. However it gets less damage. It is also less challenging which is why I don't play it often.

But you can pull harder in Ryujo so I used it a bunch of times to introduce newbies. Which is why WR sinks like a brick in those divs.

 

And there's another thing - you started out by saying you do not care much for stats. And then you started pulling stats. 

Now you think I did very good in Ryujo. You did about the same. And you say you just used it to grind to Hakuryu. 

What do you think I did... 

 

Here's (in fat print) the thing you assume wrong. That's why I say start with a clear head. You assume I div up with two 70% players.

Heres the stats of my clan: https://wows-numbers.com/clan/500163086,BBMM-Beer-Belly-Master-Mindz/ and those I usually div up with.

So all of us are more or less ~50%, teamwork is a thing. And I do not mean I try to save them or anything. 

 

In your case, you will get >65% and your teammates will as well. So, if you all work independently, you will get even more as a division.

Simple, because even if you were not in a division and you'd end up with two random 65% players you'd win more often. I get that. 

So for you it doesn't matter (much) if you are in a division or not. But you can't show it much, as you do not have many div-games.

Those that you do have don't show much WR improvement. But I understand the theory.

 

For me, teamwork gives a definite bonus in WR. I think it works. And yes it costs me some damage. But only a bit. 

The damage it costs is when my divvies finish off the ship and I go search for next victim. Sometimes I help them but I also gain from that.

Though not as much as when I'd be farming a big fat BB. But the return is I can count on them to help and not run behind an island. So we win.

We also "focus fire", which means they'll get the advantage - I'll drop on a ship and make fire, he uses DCP. Guess who farms faster. 

Because I pointed them to the fact he used DCP. If I do not, it is me that will set the perma fire, but hey. We win more because it doesn't get wasted as usual in randoms. 

That sort of stuff is what I call teamwork, and it is damn useful. 

 

So back home finally xD

Now I got time for this.

 

1.

I already Explained that.

Winrate with 3 Good Players Guaranteed in 1 Team will always be Better than Winrate of 1 Good Player Guaranteed in 1 Team.

Simple Math. Nothing gonna change that. And its entirely Irrelevant to that if you Teamplay or not ;)

2.

Actually it makes alot of Sense. You just need to Check in which Order I got my CVs and at which Time I changed from a Solo Player who now and then Divs up with his Inactive Friends that Play the Game once in 2 Months to a Clan Player which Plays the Game mostly with other Competent Players ;)

Since Haku is the First T10 CV I Grinded (Remember I started on Ryujo) it is a CV where I was basicly almost always Alone and if I had Divs it was usually my Personal Friends which Includes a 30% Winrate Kremlin Player whose Name I wont mention albeit if your Interested you could really find out fairly easily by checking my Clan History and see who in my old Clan had one.....

In Theso I actually only Played Haku in Division like 5 or so times.

Same for GZ and Kaga. You just have to Realize that basicly 60% or more of these Games are from before I actually Joined Theso and Started Changing my Play more and more.

If you Check the Importand Moments List where I got each CV you will fairly fast Notice why the Midway has such a Different ratio of Solo to Div Battles. Because when I joined I was effectively on my last few Battles for Lexington and then got Midway a few weeks or so later. ;)

And Yes. My Personal Friends still Play with me from time to time. Maybe you Realize that having a Guaranteed 30% Kremlin Potato in your Team might actually be worse than Playing Solo xD

6.

It is :) Because having more Damage than the Enemy CV doesnt mean you Played Better. It only means you Farmed more Damage.

If he killed all 3 of your Teams DDs and went out of that Match with 50k Damage while you Killed 1 Enemy BB and went out of the Match with 100k Damage then take a Guess who of you had Vastly more Impact on that Match ;)

8.

Yep. And now look when exactly I Played these Ships ^^ The Last of them I Played was the Ranger and that was 6 Months ago when Grinding Lexington xD

No Offense to you Mate. If you really want to Compare yourself to my Skills from 6-9 Months ago thats Fine. ^^ I just dont think it has much Value ^^

As for Jokes. Uhh. Mate. Seriously Stop. Just Stop. Everyone who Remembers the Development of CVs during this Time is laughing his rear off right now.

The Reason the Ryujo Stats are higher is because I finished Grinding it while AA was still the first iteration of Rework where AA Dps was Spread randomly over the Squadron thus you often not losing a Single Plane in 4-5 Drops.

When I unlocked Shokaku and Haku. We actually had moved the System where AA Focused 1 Plane but was still on Permanent Sector and with non Nerfed AA Values (back then AA DPS was roughly 50% higher in Average with Des Moines for example doing around 600 Continues DPS in its long Range Sector) where you easily lost the entire Squadron if you dared to Fly into 3 Cruisers that formed a Blob.

Now we are on a New System with Heavily Nerfed AA and the "Press a Button for Mini Instant Damage and Sector" thing.

And your Trying to Frame these Different Stat Results as an Example for Teamplay in the Current Meta.

9.

Telling you again. Try Focusing Relevant Targets instead and dont waste time on Supporting teammates. And you will see WR going up even further.

Currently its fairly easy to see from your performance that your WR goes up in Division mostly thanks to your Div Mates not because your doing much.

10.

Actually your the one who bought up Stats. I am just pointing them out to you accordingly.

Your also the one who bought up the Ryujo by the way lol.

I just pointed out you Performed better with it Solo than Division.

12:

Irrelevant.

No Offense Mate. But your Clan has several Decent Players that are good enough to Increase your Winrate. I cant tell with which of these you Play after all.

 

 

However Mate.

Its Obvious I am not Gonna Convince You at this Point and the Discussion starts going in Circles.

I stay by my Point that you would get even Better Results if you didnt waste time on Support and rather Focus on Removing Importand Enemies. But I neither want to nor have the capability to Force you into doing that.

So do whatever you think works best ;)

Maybe (given the Meta doesnt change tremendously in the meantime) you will actullay Git Gud as you say. And start Realizing what I was talking about :)

Till then I fear we will just have to Agree on Disagreeing :P

 

 

 

[Sunleader]

12 minutes ago, powerzuff said:

@Sunleader

thank you for the advice regarding more selfish CV play, I will try it out.

but why did you choose a azur lane bismark as an avatar and not the white haired gz chick which would suit to your profile much better ;)

 

@BLUB__BLUB

the discussion seems stucked at some point, you should listen to the man with the numbers, just listen ;)

btw. my highest dmg with the Ark Royale is 165 k, sorry, but I couldn't hold it,

but this doesn't make my crappy CV skill any better.

 

 

Because I am actually not a CV Main. I actually like most to Play Battleships.

 

In May last Year I started Playing CVs purely out of Spite because some CV Apologists in Forum said that CVs are not Overpowered at all and that the only reason I complain about them being OP is because I am a Potato who doesnt know how to Deal with them.

So I started Playing CVs and Showed them just how Ridiculous the Results are a Potato gets when Playing these Monsters back then.

 

I actually used Kaga as Avatar most of the Time. I still think I will be going back to that. She is still my Favorite Character in Azur Lane in the End.

But somewhere along the Way I became known as the Graf Zeppelin Guy because I played it alot and made it work where others Struggled. (especially in a certain 1 vs 1 Ranked Sprint ^^)

I did later actually Change my Avatar to the Kancolle Graf Zeppelin for a short time. But didnt like it. So I changed to Bismarck currently.

 

But Yeah. I actually think I will go back to Kaga. Somehow she is the one I like seeing as my Avatar the most.

[powerzuff]

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But Yeah. I actually think I will go back to Kaga. Somehow she is the one I like seeing as my Avatar the most.

Yes, KAGA is so cool, I use her too on other accounts.

 

[Sunleader]

Actually I just Realized. I.ll simply use Battleship Kaga lol.

If she gets into Game one Day I would certainly get her anyways ^^

[steveraptor]

@BLUB__BLUB

 

Before you decide to respond with another wall of text, take a moment to think to yourself.

 

You have 5k+ games under your belt, at this point a player mindset is usually set in stone and its easy to interpret how he plays.

Your CV stats, at this matter, are pretty bad and if it didn't trigger you a red light by now, then it should, because at this point your mindset is probably messed up and your skill and decision making probably suffer the same problems, you simply are not aware of this.

 

Judging by reading all your comments in the forums here and there, one can judge that you have poor knowledge or flawed understanding on some game mechanics, especially regarding CVs.

 

Clearly, it seems your willing to learn, but at the same time you're also stuck in the same place because you refuse to change your mind set.

The will to learn and adapt is a rare, and powerful trait that many people lack.

 

You got lucky that you stumbled across someone like Sunleader in those forums, which is a rare thing by itself, that has all this patience to try and hammer down a brick wall in order to get some VALID points through so you will, maybe, eventually, understand. All considering hes stats and hes experience, he probably knows what hes talking about and as someone who played SOLO 90% of my games in CV and consider myself a fairly decent CV main, i agree with everything he said those far, matter of fact he covered everything there is to cover, so i don't need to add anything to it.

 

If i were you, I would sit down, open my brain and just soak all the information from the very few players that actually do know a thing or two about the game, and are willing to share this knowledge with you, instead of trying to fight them over.

Because so far, with every wall of text you post, you just make yourself look more ridiculous...no offense.

Eventually, even Sunleaders patience will run out and you will get stuck in your little world with sub 50% W/R and yellow/red stats, learning pretty much nothing out of all that time you spent writing all those walls.

 

Think about it

 

P.S.

 

Since you can't get rid of your "Teamplay" mentality in a CV, let me show you a good example, on how CV doesn't need to co-operate with anyone but hes own judgement to decide the outcome of any game.

And this time its in Clan wars, where "Teamplay" is in its peak compared to the random battles you're used to play.

The match was played in Typhoon league:

 

CZA, Hak perspective.wowsreplay

[powerzuff]

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

f she gets into Game one Day I would certainly get her anyways ^^

I WG would be clever they would bring in those azure lane camos with a huge wide spread.

Especially the CV ones are great.

I would waste a lot of money here, even considering buying Kaga as a ship

but she gets wasted by Enterprise ... I am also missing

[Yosha_AtaIante]

10 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

Think about it.

He had more than a year of time already. He is simply a potat with the heart at the right place. He is trying too. Sometimes what he says is a little ridiculous but that's just how it is and will probably stay. 

 

I doubt that mindset will ever change. his surroundings are also an influence on his mindset and we don't really know much about those players he plays with. 

So I would say to not try to change something that likely won't change anyway anymore. 

He is at least not giving up and one day will maybe make a breakthrough. 

 

Sunleader nailed everything. But if Blub is staying at the level he is at and not planning to improve much more which is also unlikely then what he is doing currently is probably his best bet

Definetly better than derping around like some other posters who don't even try to communicate. 

[AirSuperiority]

@steveraptor

 

Steve is a good cv player, one of the few dozen cvs with put brain juice in to the game.

See you on the battlefield someday again, I will bring drinks along for you :)

 

[steveraptor]

3 minutes ago, AirSuperiority said:

@steveraptor

 

Steve is a good cv player, one of the few dozen cvs with put brain juice in to the game.

See you on the battlefield someday again, I will bring drinks along for you :)

 

I will hold you to that 

[BLUB__BLUB]

 

Quote

However Mate.

Its Obvious I am not Gonna Convince You at this Point and the Discussion starts going in Circles.

I stay by my Point that you would get even Better Results if you didnt waste time on Support and rather Focus on Removing Importand Enemies. But I neither want to nor have the capability to Force you into doing that.

So do whatever you think works best ;)

Eh. You are sort of pulling that out of your behind, really. I already told I wasn't "wasting time on support". Far from it.

If my teammates can kill that DD and do it faster than me, much better. Meanwhile I'll attack that BB that is out to get them.

The upped WR in my most played CV should convince you of that, but alas you choose to see that in your own way.  

 

Most weird though... pulling a 30% Kremlin out of nowhere is the answer, but anything I say can be ignored.

Like why I do worse in Ryujo when teaming up? But well. Thanks for the replies mate. But no sale.

You are no teamplayer and will never understand what I mean, I guess. But: 

 

At least we have proven we can have a decent discussion even if we don't agree. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

He had more than a year of time already. He is simply a potat with the heart at the right place. He is trying too. Sometimes what he says is a little ridiculous but that's just how it is and will probably stay. 

Yup. I am a Spud-nik. I'm trying to GitGud though. It is sort of working: I know what to do with Ark Royal and will usually outperform the other potato.

I'm quite sure that if my div meet somebody that is actually good he'll have a tough time. 

 

Quote

I doubt that mindset will ever change. his surroundings are also an influence on his mindset and we don't really know much about those players he plays with. 

So I would say to not try to change something that likely won't change anyway anymore. 

He is at least not giving up and one day will maybe make a breakthrough. 

Indeed I will not give up. Next up is Ryujo and see what I can do with that one. I know it can whack stuff dead lots better. 

 

Quote

Sunleader nailed everything. But if Blub is staying at the level he is at and not planning to improve much more which is also unlikely then what he is doing currently is probably his best bet

Definetly better than derping around like some other posters who don't even try to communicate. 

IMO there's a lot of things where he interprets things "because he is better". I think I delivered some valid thoughts.

He just repeated what I already learned from the rest here about solo play, nothing new or nailed.