General CV related discussions.

El2aZeR · May 20, 2020

3 hours ago, Figment said:

You don't even recognise that the CV is part of the team!

That is because in the rework the CV objectively is NOT part of the team, as the class in itself neither relies nor can be relied upon by teammates for anything that isn't in its own selfish interest anyway. CVs are completely disconnected from the teambased nature of the game and does nothing but actively grief the opposing side.

If you want a real life analogy the CV is the guy in a group project that never shows up to meetings, refuses to communicate with any group members and in the end depending solely on his own level of competency either delivers stunning results or drags the whole group down.

Deckeru_Maiku · May 21, 2020

9 hours ago, Palachinka said:

I play DDs and CVs are perfectly fine. People complaining are either self-entitled or cant understand that this is a team game, not a duel game.

Statflame incoming:

510 battles total in DDs

WoWs S&N PR in them 802

Average Damage in them 17638

Me:

5155 battles in DDs

PR 1575

Average damage in them 33636

And I'm only an average player...

So please excuse me, when I think Your comment is based on a very thwarted base position.

Figment · May 21, 2020

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Rules can be unfair (like for example one immortal unit attacking anyone anywhere anytime), which is a fixable issue in design or afterwards. The carrier's actions can't be considered explicitly unfair (same with border humping) within the game rules, since he is operating according to the said rules, but the tules themselves can and should be questioned.

Agreed, but not per definition ruled out as unfair.

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

So, how about that nuclear bomb? One time use per match, given to the team that loses the first ship so that it evens things out, kills everything within a 15km radius so that it can be used to defend a flank that is being overrun. No, I don't want to go any further in stupid analogies, but also no, any form of "cavalry" to the rescue is not fine and good by default.

We're not talking something that can single handedly turn the tide, simply ease the issue without making it go away entirely. I'm talking about it as a mitigation tool. Something that wins you time to regroup by means of teamwork. Which is a good thing.

In other words, it keeps both teams from slaughtering the opposition, which makes for a more challenging game and thus a better game, in my experience. The most boring WoWs games for me are those where your roflstomp an enemy because one or two screwed up or were unlucky with RNG. Sitback and see their DPS be inadequate to harm you and your allies. Something that keeps the fight closer to equal (even if not equal even in the scenario's I've described) is in my book a good thing. And it takes a teamplayer to pull off, in this case also a player who can stay out of the hands of the enemy team (and has more trouble doing so than the current CV because DPS is worse and proximity to danger is worse).

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Yes, please do that. Also, until you can come up with a design we can evaluate and study, I will only discuss the current implementation. For me the problem specifically is that when at least I think we're talking about carriers right now and something is demonstratably wrong it's ok, because in some other design things might be better. And then we talk about potential designs and somehow we kind of get back to carriers are kind of ok anyway, which is a bit hard for me to follow.

:/

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

A common answer to all the suggestions you've given on range and DPS: Yes, as before, they would make the situation more bearable, but still not as good as simply removing carriers (until a better design can be implemented). If you want to know my opinion on a design you think would be optimal, you need to provide one first - and I would be definitely interested in seeing one. But until there is one, there isn't one and I will always assume we're talking about the current implementation.

That's... just... :/ Well, that was a gigantic waste of time then. Because my take on our conversation has been finding common ground on a new design and I've been virtually exclusively talking about what would work better in a new design (at most referencing current design for flaws or relative strength).

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Different views are what is interesting in discussions anyway. That's why I'm interested in your views, perhaps there is something I'm missing, perhaps there isn't it's especially interesting in such a clear cut case where there's a nearly invulnerable unit in play with near unlimited capability of striking all over the map without counterplay. To me (and many others) simply accepting something like that is a rather alien concept, so it's intriguing to hear different opinions.

"Invulnerability" is not the term I'd use when an unit depends on being safe for as long as it is protected by allies. The same argument is applicable to artillery in WoT, but artillery is not "safe" once the line of defense ahead of it is gone. Artillery has the balancing advantage that it doesn't do much of its own spotting however and has more issues with blockading terrain. Nevertheless the same argumentation of "invulnerability" is used. Even if there's literally next to no defense once discovered or rushed. I'd like to see a CV not have the frequency of striking power nor concealment to deal with being rapidly approached. That way the only way to stay safe is for allies to block access to it and to create damage over time only as long as allies allow it not to be approached. In that case, the better the team at putting up a defensive formation, the more effective a CV can theoretically be (stays in the fight longer thus more potential damage dealt), while due to low DPS it'd only be able to strike occassionally for mediocre damage at best and thus not be great at defending itself.

Hell, if there was a little bit more chance and reliance of flooding and fire, but lower alpha damage for aircraft attacks, it'd give more time to the attacked players to deal with it and still dish out some damage, even if hit critically.

It's not like the battle of the Midway had infinite sorties and the amount of aircraft lost on both sides runs in the hundreds. In fact, I'd be happy if "fighter" aircraft were removed and squadrons could engage each other directly. More exp for aircraft taken down would be great as well, tbh.

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Except that this isn't at all how the game actually works. Remember the clan wars thing? Carriers are excellent at stopping aggression and making the game passive. Your team has a carrier too, so the power department evens out.

(Referring to an anecdotal experience) But it was spotted for five minutes. This is the problem with made up anecdotal stuff, the situation is always whatever whoever is making the argument wants to. We really need replays to look at if we want to get anywhere with these specific examples.

Sure, but you can play some scenarios before you do that and get an idea on the base rules.

13 hours ago, AndyHill said:

I'm kind of ok with going round in circles, going through analogies and other stuff, but this is so easy to check and so blatantly false that it kind of irks me a bit. Your reply was specifically to the current season's situation, which was referenced in my post as the current situation and demonstrated with the use of a screenshot someone else provided of the current situation.

I didn't deny the current situation though. I was refering to the comment made where someone pointed to previous incarnations of clan wars having been better and CW players being nostalgic about it. I refered to the current season's ship of choice to indicate there's apparently not much choice between these ships, for they're not equals. I never said there wasn't numerically a choice, I basically said that they're apparently too imbalanced between them to pick something else than the Stalingrad.

BLUB__BLUB · May 21, 2020

12 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

That is because in the rework the CV objectively is NOT part of the team, as the class in itself neither relies nor can be relied upon by teammates for anything that isn't in its own selfish interest anyway. CVs are completely disconnected from the teambased nature of the game and does nothing but actively grief the opposing side.

If you want a real life analogy the CV is the guy in a group project that never shows up to meetings, refuses to communicate with any group members and in the end depending solely on his own level of competency either delivers stunning results or drags the whole group down.

See, here's the point that I don't agree with you - but sort of do at the same time.

You say that the CV is NOT part of the team, and say it is only there for self-interest.

I fail to see that in two ways:

- In what way is his self-interest different from the group, which is to kill the enemy, drive them before you and hear... AKA to win?

- I don't see any other teammates being reliable... or vice-versa.

The goal of the CV is to harvest damage and grief the other team, and yes indeed they can and will do this.

Also, in the real-life anology this is similar for other players than the CV. When you have no CV there's always one (or two, or three) of those too.

Like, bumholes will be bumholes and if they have the most powerful ship then yeah that is what happens.

But I agree there is too much influence still If you get a potato-CV vs unicum CV there is no doubt which side will do better and win.

Mards · May 21, 2020

Has anybody noticed that right now we get about the same number of CV's as before the carrier re-work? I think we should rename that change to Combat Update as WG took as much notice of its audience as Sony did all that time ago with Star Wars Galaxies - how did that work out for Sony>? I was really sad when Wg (small g on purpose) killed any kind of fun in WoT, why should we be surprised they also removed any fun from the boat game that used to be World of Warships?

Sunleader · May 21, 2020

42 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

See, here's the point that I don't agree with you - but sort of do at the same time.

You say that the CV is NOT part of the team, and say it is only there for self-interest.

I fail to see that in two ways:

- In what way is his self-interest different from the group, which is to kill the enemy, drive them before you and hear... AKA to win?

- I don't see any other teammates being reliable... or vice-versa.

The goal of the CV is to harvest damage and grief the other team, and yes indeed they can and will do this.

Also, in the real-life anology this is similar for other players than the CV. When you have no CV there's always one (or two, or three) of those too.

Like, bumholes will be bumholes and if they have the most powerful ship then yeah that is what happens.

But I agree there is too much influence still If you get a potato-CV vs unicum CV there is no doubt which side will do better and win.

Other Ships work together to some Degree because they have to.

A DD cannot be the Vanguard of the Fleet when there is no one behind him. Neither can a BB Effectively Fight Enemies if it doesnt have a Vanguard in Front of him which keeps enemy Torpedoes at Distance and Spots Enemy DDs and Cruisers before they are so close that the BB starts being at a Severe Disadvantage.

The 3 Base Classes are Heavily Reliant on each other. Because if the others dont do their Job they become Extremely Ineffective. Likewise if they themselves dont Perform Properly the others efforts are in Vain.

A Good DD almost entirely Plays for the Team and only takes Action himself when there is an Opportunity. He Spots and Protects his Team allowing it to move Forward or Blocking the Enemy from Moving Forward.

Same for Cruisers. Good Cruisers pretty much only Work for the Team only actually working in their own Interest if its an Opportunity. He Blocks Areas from the Enemy and Provides DPM Support for his DDs.

Even BBs do that. A good BB doesnt sit in the Rear and Farms Damage... It Tanks Damage and Pushes Forward to allow the Team to take Control of an Favorable Area.

But CVs ? For a CV the Extend to which he Relies on his Team is that they dont Die too Fast for him to have Fun on the Enemy. And this is what a Good CV Does. A Good CV pretty much Ignores his own Team entirely.

To him the Team could just as well both be Bots. Because as long as they dont just get Roflstomped he doesnt really need them for anything.

Of course its Nice to Drop a Fighter for Spotting or Protection. But in most cases this is only worth doing when your flying over that Point anyways. The moment you would need to take even the Slightest Detour its already starting to no longer be worth doing. Because its in Fact making your Game worse.

1 Minute Spotting from a Fighter Plane as well as 1 Minute Damage Reduction from Enemy Air Attacks by Providing Fighters to an extremely Limited Area is almost useless unless its in a very specific Situation which you often wont get with Random Teammates.

As Fighters only hold 1 Minute its useless unless your dropping it onto a Target that the Enemy is already Set on Targeting. But that also means that unless the Enemy Targets an Enemy that your just right now Flying over anyways you cant really do anything like that without effectively circling your own Team all the time trying to Intercept the Enemy. Which makes it effectively useless as you spend all your time trying to reduce damage while doing no damage at all.

Thanks to that for a CV there is effectively no Teamplay happening. For the CV its basicly he looks at the Map to See the Situation of the Battle and Acts according to that.

To him it makes 0 Difference if there is other Players or NPCs down there. To him it could just as well be a Flight Simulator with him Attacking Ground Targets while 2 NPC Armies Fight down there.

The only Enemy he has is the Enemy CV. And that CV is not even Directly Fighting him. Its more like Mario Cart. Racing to the Target trying to Compensate for Random Events and Traps while dropping Banana Peels and an occasional turtle shell at each other.

This is actually the most Annoying Aspect of CVs in my Eyes.

Funny enough. I often ended up Playing much Worse in my CV when I played in Division. And didnt know why. Until I realized that the moment I effectively Ignore the Fact that I have Division Mates and therefore mostly Ignore them I start Playing Properly again.

Division Mates tempt me to Support them. But Supporting them completely prevents me from doing my Job and ends up netting bad Results in Total.

So When I play CV. Division Mates are Effectively nothing else than 2 Players which are not Potatoes at least. But which I otherwise Treat exactly the same as if they were Random Teammates because Supporting them actually is worse for them than me just doing my Job.

This is also why I rarely Play CV anymore.

In that Regard the Best so far was Navyfield actually. There the CVs Job was 99% to Achieve Air Superiority and Air Cover for his Teammates. It was a Direct Duel between up to 3 CVs on each Team Fighting each other in the Air.

On a Sidenote.

This is also my currently Sole Critic on Submarines by the Way. They feel entirely Disconnected from the other Players.

But they can at least Pick Direct Duels with Enemy Players even if they dont have much in the way of Teamplay. Not like the CV which is Onesided Killing of Enemys and only Direct Confrontation being the Race against the Enemy CV.

Still. You can Laugh at that. But if CVs were not in the Game. I would actually not be Supporting Submarines to come into the Game.

But thats just on the Side.

Mad_Dog_Dante · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, Mards said:

Has anybody noticed that right now we get about the same number of CV's as before the carrier re-work? I think we should rename that change to Combat Update as WG took as much notice of its audience as Sony did all that time ago with Star Wars Galaxies - how did that work out for Sony>? I was really sad when Wg (small g on purpose) killed any kind of fun in WoT, why should we be surprised they also removed any fun from the boat game that used to be World of Warships?

Good question, and I am not surprised. What surprises me is that it took them this long. Which is great because I got to enjoy the ships a bit longer before being completely turned off by WG's marketing, gambling and gameplay flops.

CptBarney · May 21, 2020

5 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Good question, and I am not surprised. What surprises me is that it took them this long. Which is great because I got to enjoy the ships a bit longer before being completely turned off by WG's marketing, gambling and gameplay flops.

Makes me wonder if they should open an old closed alpha server or a really early version of the game for a bit (like a week or a bit more) for those who want to play that again and also play it for the first time.

BLUB__BLUB · May 21, 2020

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Other Ships work together to some Degree because they have to.

A DD cannot be the Vanguard of the Fleet when there is no one behind him. Neither can a BB Effectively Fight Enemies if it doesnt have a Vanguard in Front of him which keeps enemy Torpedoes at Distance and Spots Enemy DDs and Cruisers before they are so close that the BB starts being at a Severe Disadvantage.

The 3 Base Classes are Heavily Reliant on each other. Because if the others dont do their Job they become Extremely Ineffective. Likewise if they themselves dont Perform Properly the others efforts are in Vain.

A Good DD almost entirely Plays for the Team and only takes Action himself when there is an Opportunity. He Spots and Protects his Team allowing it to move Forward or Blocking the Enemy from Moving Forward.

Same for Cruisers. Good Cruisers pretty much only Work for the Team only actually working in their own Interest if its an Opportunity. He Blocks Areas from the Enemy and Provides DPM Support for his DDs.

Even BBs do that. A good BB doesnt sit in the Rear and Farms Damage... It Tanks Damage and Pushes Forward to allow the Team to take Control of an Favorable Area.

I see this thing, but I do not agree. And, there you name it, where I see the difference.

Yes a good DD and a good BB. However a bad DD and bad BB do not become ineffective - for themselves.

I see plenty BBs that hang around back spamming HE, and well, in the end they move in - and they end up on top of teamlist scoring highest XP.

Same thing (and you have enough experience to know how) with DDs and cruisers.

Also, I 'd argue a good CV does take one for the team, spots where needed and such.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But CVs ? For a CV the Extend to which he Relies on his Team is that they dont Die too Fast for him to have Fun on the Enemy. And this is what a Good CV Does. A Good CV pretty much Ignores his own Team entirely.

To him the Team could just as well both be Bots. Because as long as they dont just get Roflstomped he doesnt really need them for anything.

Not really true. The team can kill the other CV far more effectively than the CV can.

Yes I know some really good CV players do not need the team. But that is hardly the case most times.

And in other ships those really good players carry the team anyway - getting 6, 7 kills and twice as much XP as the rest.

Do THEY really need the team...

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Of course its Nice to Drop a Fighter for Spotting or Protection. But in most cases this is only worth doing when your flying over that Point anyways. The moment you would need to take even the Slightest Detour its already starting to no longer be worth doing. Because its in Fact making your Game worse.

Yes - but same as a BB having to knock out a cruiser, that is already burning, before that cruiser wrecks his DD.

He exposes himself by firing at a worthless target. It is making his game worse, too.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

1 Minute Spotting from a Fighter Plane as well as 1 Minute Damage Reduction from Enemy Air Attacks by Providing Fighters to an extremely Limited Area is almost useless unless its in a very specific Situation which you often wont get with Random Teammates.

As Fighters only hold 1 Minute its useless unless your dropping it onto a Target that the Enemy is already Set on Targeting. But that also means that unless the Enemy Targets an Enemy that your just right now Flying over anyways you cant really do anything like that without effectively circling your own Team all the time trying to Intercept the Enemy. Which makes it effectively useless as you spend all your time trying to reduce damage while doing no damage at all.

In fact it is a very poor example, as the first thing about it is if it doesn't DRAW THE ENEMY to the DD....

But I never do it anyway, I believe "fighters" are more useful as spotters. That DD can smoke up.

My fighthers won't save him. but they will rpovide him with a view of the cruiser that he smoked up for, so he can farm him.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thanks to that for a CV there is effectively no Teamplay happening. For the CV its basicly he looks at the Map to See the Situation of the Battle and Acts according to that.

Well what exactly is the difference, as all other players should also look at the map.

And act according to that. Granted, not many of them do...

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

To him it makes 0 Difference if there is other Players or NPCs down there. To him it could just as well be a Flight Simulator with him Attacking Ground Targets while 2 NPC Armies Fight down there.

The only Enemy he has is the Enemy CV. And that CV is not even Directly Fighting him. Its more like Mario Cart. Racing to the Target trying to Compensate for Random Events and Traps while dropping Banana Peels and an occasional turtle shell at each other.

I'd say it is more like the others are playing Mario Kart and you are the one dropping banana peels and stuff.

But that doesn't mean you cannot decide to help a certain player (and the team) to win.

But you drop the banana peel on the adversary of the one player that can make the difference.

You do not drop the banana peel needlessly or on player that is a total douche.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This is actually the most Annoying Aspect of CVs in my Eyes.

I don't see it that way.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Funny enough. I often ended up Playing much Worse in my CV when I played in Division. And didnt know why. Until I realized that the moment I effectively Ignore the Fact that I have Division Mates and therefore mostly Ignore them I start Playing Properly again.

You musty be doing something wrong. have a look at my stats in Ark Royal (they're so much that they are actually relevant).

There you see what happens in division. https://wows-numbers.com/player/552033702,BLUB__BLUB/

You see the damage goes down, but WR goes up. What you do NOT see is that the damage is far more regular.

In randoms, when I play solo, I can get 15k because it is a ROFLSTOMP (win or lose) and I do not have much control over it.

I also can get 80-90-100K (and it can still be win or lose). The average is 48% WR but well, weekends usually. Can't carry that hard with Ark Royal.

Mind that I am an average player - and so are most of my divvies. We MUST cooperate else we do not win at all.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Division Mates tempt me to Support them. But Supporting them completely prevents me from doing my Job and ends up netting bad Results in Total.

Maybe your division mates are shite. :Smile_trollface: No I think they are not, but there is a good chance they get lazy.

"CV go kil that DD". "Spot this for me". Yeah right. That is not how it is supposed to work, IMO.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

So When I play CV. Division Mates are Effectively nothing else than 2 Players which are not Potatoes at least. But which I otherwise Treat exactly the same as if they were Random Teammates because Supporting them actually is worse for them than me just doing my Job.

Well at least you have detected the problem... Here's how I see it:

YOU are in CV, you should be the one leading your team and not your team leading YOU.

It is YOUR JOB telling them which way is safe and what to do. YOU need to help them win the game, together.

You are not here as their slave to let them farm, you are there as a teammate and together you should farm as much as you possibly can and get the win.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This is also why I rarely Play CV anymore.

I like Ark Royal, but mostly because I think it is a challenge (I want to do highest damage in that thing ever).

Somebody here said if you wanted to do well in that thing you'd actually need to GitGud. So I said I'd but it first day and GitGud (I know... takes me longtime...). :Smile_facepalm:

Rest of the CVs, yes I play them but MY DIVMATES are the reason I play them. They know if I'm in CV they have a reasonable CV-player.

Because if we go random and we get a potato vs a red "reasonable one" we are screwed. THIS actually is a (THE?) problem.

It is also why I have T10CVs. Usually I do not play T10. But I will get them, and GitGud (well... somewhat) so when needed I can do it for the clan.

Because I knew WG would stick them into CB. I don't like it at all so I'll only enlist for CB when they ask me, really.

So that we have a chance to win and teammates can gather some steel. Our WHOLE CLAN is made from ~average players.

We actually HAVE TO work together to get a result.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

In that Regard the Best so far was Navyfield actually. There the CVs Job was 99% to Achieve Air Superiority and Air Cover for his Teammates. It was a Direct Duel between up to 3 CVs on each Team Fighting each other in the Air.

I don't know that game... but sounds like CV-fun.

33 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

On a Sidenote.

This is also my currently Sole Critic on Submarines by the Way. They feel entirely Disconnected from the other Players.

But they can at least Pick Direct Duels with Enemy Players even if they dont have much in the way of Teamplay. Not like the CV which is Onesided Killing of Enemys and only Direct Confrontation being the Race against the Enemy CV.

Still. You can Laugh at that. But if CVs were not in the Game. I would actually not be Supporting Submarines to come into the Game.

But thats just on the Side.

Teamplay is what you make it. You must remember though that you are a VERY GOOD player.

Frankly if we (average Joes) can do 70% in T6 I don't see how you do not get 100% WR when having 3 div-mates... :Smile_trollface:

This also makes your vision on stuff different than the Average Joe. Though most of times you are correct.

As it is (I have played the test server, too - and with CV, DD, CL and subs) it looks like fun.

I will CERTAINLY be playing the "special submarine mode" because even on the test server it was mainly B0ts.

But we went in there with divisions and yeah it was good fun.

However remains to be seen what happens when it "goes live"and I have no doubt WG will dump it into general population.

And since we know how they do balance... :Smile_hiding:

AndyHill · May 21, 2020

2 hours ago, Figment said:

We're not talking something that can single handedly turn the tide, simply ease the issue without making it go away entirely. I'm talking about it as a mitigation tool. Something that wins you time to regroup by means of teamwork. Which is a good thing.

Ok so what if the nuke only does 50k damage at the center, tapering down to about 10k at 15km? What kind of numbers would be suitable for the purpose?

2 hours ago, Figment said:

That's... just... :/ Well, that was a gigantic waste of time then. Because my take on our conversation has been finding common ground on a new design and I've been virtually exclusively talking about what would work better in a new design (at most referencing current design for flaws or relative strength).

The design needs to start at the core. I need to understand what the core gameplay of the new design is like before any discussion on amounts of damage and such is meaningful. Range limitation is at least a little more interesting, because it at least has potential to change the situation entirely, even though I can't see that in practice with any numbers I've seen so far. But before I can evaluate any numbers I need to know what kind of a general design they're a part of.

3 hours ago, Figment said:

"Invulnerability" is not the term I'd use when an unit depends on being safe for as long as it is protected by allies.

The reference was a theoretical one, not even directly referencing WoWS. The fact that the description is kind of accurate for WoWS is just extra.

3 hours ago, Figment said:

I didn't deny the current situation though. I was refering to the comment made where someone pointed to previous incarnations of clan wars having been better and CW players being nostalgic about it. I refered to the current season's ship of choice to indicate there's apparently not much choice between these ships, for they're not equals. I never said there wasn't numerically a choice, I basically said that they're apparently too imbalanced between them to pick something else than the Stalingrad.

This is the direct quote:

On 5/17/2020 at 6:58 PM, Figment said:

With regards to clan wars, if it's not this setup with a CV, you'll get the same "everyone do the sam" thing with other ships, because the amount of choice at tier X isn't that large and they're not all equal.

The stuff with nostalgy about previous seasons (again, rather than asking someone who actually had experience on the subject what the lineups and tactics were like earlier, you simply assumed it was "rose-tinted glasses") came later after I mentioned that pre-carrier seasons factually had more variety.

Anyway, just read Sunleader's (and El2's) post above about what the teamplay value of carriers actually is. He said it pretty well and I agree with him on that. In reality a unit that is basically completely independent of its team unlike all the others does not actually promote good teamplay.

AndyHill · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

To him the Team could just as well both be Bots. Because as long as they dont just get Roflstomped he doesnt really need them for anything.

This is actually a good point. The bots WG employs on the test server can be nasty, they certainly give typical test server players a run for their money. More importantly, if carriers were changed to be even more powerful and given capability to fight each other, the split between ship and plane queues could actually work, because you wouldn't need human players in surface ships for the carrier queue. What the surface ship does during an attack matters so little to the carrier that they could literally be bots.

Even better, if the carrier game mode was redesigned so that the idea is to push your minions to targets or something like that, it could actually be really fun.

Sunleader · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I see this thing, but I do not agree. And, there you name it, where I see the difference.

Yes a good DD and a good BB. However a bad DD and bad BB do not become ineffective - for themselves.

I see plenty BBs that hang around back spamming HE, and well, in the end they move in - and they end up on top of teamlist scoring highest XP.

Same thing (and you have enough experience to know how) with DDs and cruisers.

Also, I 'd argue a good CV does take one for the team, spots where needed and such.

Not really true. The team can kill the other CV far more effectively than the CV can.

Yes I know some really good CV players do not need the team. But that is hardly the case most times.

And in other ships those really good players carry the team anyway - getting 6, 7 kills and twice as much XP as the rest.

Do THEY really need the team...

Yes - but same as a BB having to knock out a cruiser, that is already burning, before that cruiser wrecks his DD.

He exposes himself by firing at a worthless target. It is making his game worse, too.

In fact it is a very poor example, as the first thing about it is if it doesn't DRAW THE ENEMY to the DD....

But I never do it anyway, I believe "fighters" are more useful as spotters. That DD can smoke up.

My fighthers won't save him. but they will rpovide him with a view of the cruiser that he smoked up for, so he can farm him.

Well what exactly is the difference, as all other players should also look at the map.

And act according to that. Granted, not many of them do...

I'd say it is more like the others are playing Mario Kart and you are the one dropping banana peels and stuff.

But that doesn't mean you cannot decide to help a certain player (and the team) to win.

But you drop the banana peel on the adversary of the one player that can make the difference.

You do not drop the banana peel needlessly or on player that is a total douche.

I don't see it that way.

You musty be doing something wrong. have a look at my stats in Ark Royal (they're so much that they are actually relevant).

There you see what happens in division. https://wows-numbers.com/player/552033702,BLUB__BLUB/

You see the damage goes down, but WR goes up. What you do NOT see is that the damage is far more regular.

In randoms, when I play solo, I can get 15k because it is a ROFLSTOMP (win or lose) and I do not have much control over it.

I also can get 80-90-100K (and it can still be win or lose). The average is 48% WR but well, weekends usually. Can't carry that hard with Ark Royal.

Mind that I am an average player - and so are most of my divvies. We MUST cooperate else we do not win at all.

Maybe your division mates are shite. No I think they are not, but there is a good chance they get lazy.

"CV go kil that DD". "Spot this for me". Yeah right. That is not how it is supposed to work, IMO.

Well at least you have detected the problem... Here's how I see it:

YOU are in CV, you should be the one leading your team and not your team leading YOU.

It is YOUR JOB telling them which way is safe and what to do. YOU need to help them win the game, together.

You are not here as their slave to let them farm, you are there as a teammate and together you should farm as much as you possibly can and get the win.

I like Ark Royal, but mostly because I think it is a challenge (I want to do highest damage in that thing ever).

Somebody here said if you wanted to do well in that thing you'd actually need to GitGud. So I said I'd but it first day and GitGud (I know... takes me longtime...).

Rest of the CVs, yes I play them but MY DIVMATES are the reason I play them. They know if I'm in CV they have a reasonable CV-player.

Because if we go random and we get a potato vs a red "reasonable one" we are screwed. THIS actually is a (THE?) problem.

It is also why I have T10CVs. Usually I do not play T10. But I will get them, and GitGud (well... somewhat) so when needed I can do it for the clan.

Because I knew WG would stick them into CB. I don't like it at all so I'll only enlist for CB when they ask me, really.

So that we have a chance to win and teammates can gather some steel. Our WHOLE CLAN is made from ~average players.

We actually HAVE TO work together to get a result.

I don't know that game... but sounds like CV-fun.

Teamplay is what you make it. You must remember though that you are a VERY GOOD player.

Frankly if we (average Joes) can do 70% in T6 I don't see how you do not get 100% WR when having 3 div-mates...

This also makes your vision on stuff different than the Average Joe. Though most of times you are correct.

As it is (I have played the test server, too - and with CV, DD, CL and subs) it looks like fun.

I will CERTAINLY be playing the "special submarine mode" because even on the test server it was mainly B0ts.

But we went in there with divisions and yeah it was good fun.

However remains to be seen what happens when it "goes live"and I have no doubt WG will dump it into general population.

And since we know how they do balance...

Oi. Thats quite detailed for a Forum Response. I cant say I agree with anything you say there. But at least I do appreciate your effort in actually explaining your Opinion.

1.

Its nice to End up on Top of the Scoring. But doing alot of Damage by Farming Enemy BBs and then Still losing cause you just Egoistically Farmed Damage is going to hurt your Winrate.

Meanwhile for the CV its the Opposite. The CV if Plays Egoistically will actually be more likely to Win. After all. DDs are the Best Paying Targets for him.

And thats the Core Difference Mate.

For Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships. Playing with the Team makes you Win. While for a CV what makes you Win is to Play alone.

And No. A Good CV pretty much entirely Ignores the Team. He only does what it Strategically Best for him in the Situation.

2.

And what use does it have for me that others can Kill the Enemy CV better than me ? Did you Forget. I am the CV too. The Enemy can Kill me just as Badly. He is no Threat to me. I could not care less about him in Fact lol.

And lol. Mate no Offense.

But do you really think this kind of Game would be Possible without my Team Supporting me ?

Spoiler

I can tell you. As a DD, CA or BB. When I get this kind of Results its almost Guaranteed that at least a few Teammates worked properly together with me.

As a CV when I get this kind of Result its usually because my Team was entirely Potato and thus I had to do everything alone.

3.

Except that for the BB. The DD is a Relevant Teammate which he needs to work properly.

As a CV this Choice of Attacking a Target thats already down just to kill it before it takes out a Teammate is never even Occurs. Because its a waste of time. I am better off dealing Damage to other Targets which are Relevant to the Game.

4.

And how many Smokes can the DD do before he will Die ?

Funny enough. Dropping a Fighter on your End of the Capture Point can sometimes be one of the Special Occassions where it makes sense. Because it means the DD can go there without wasting a Smoke.

But it doesnt really Affect what I said.

The Fact remains that Providing this kind of Support is mostly useless. Your Example doesnt change that either. Especially because Fighters die too fast as to spot a Cruiser long enough that he can be farmed.

You would do better to Bomb such an Exposed Cruiser so he is forced to turn broadside and cant maneuver freely to evade incoming fire. That would actually be more Helpful for the Team in that Moment. Even if its less Teamwork and more a Coinciding Interest.

5.

Many of them cant. For others it takes quite a bit of Time to React to the Map Situation. You cant just go from left to Right flank in a minute like the CV can do.

But more Importandly. Before the Map is Importand. The more Importand part for you is to Deal with your current Position.

6.

Or you Drop em on Purpose on the Douche so he is out of the Game Fast and gives you a Gun Advantage.

This is irrelevant Mate. Because as a CV you Prioritize Targets that you can Kill Fast and which Hurts the Enemy Team.

And No lol. Other Ships Fight each other Directly. They are not Racing each other.

Between two CVs the Game Ends when one of the CVs managed to kill the other CVs Team Faster than the Enemy CV killed his.

For the other Ships its about Kill or be Killed.

7.

But I do :)

8.

Uhhhh. Mate. I will be Blunt. I Apologize First about what I am going to Say. I really mean no Offense in it. But for the Argument its Required to Point it out Honestly.

But in your Case. The Reason you Win more in Division is Actually because Your not a Good CV Player in the First Place. Putting it Bluntly. The Reason why you Win more with Divisions. Is because your Division Mates are likely Carrying you alot.

And this is also Obvious from your own Screenshot Showing your Stats there. Because while your Winrate Improves. Your own Performance actually Drops. Which is in Fact Proving my Point.

So dont get me Wrong there Mate. Unlike most Others I think anyones Opinion should be taken Seriously Regardless of his Statistics.

But you Telling Me that I am doing something Wrong. And then Pointing your Statistics into my Face. Is Pretty Laughable.

Because I am Sorry to be Blunt again. But you are Really not someone others Should Look to when they want to know how to Properly Play a CV. And your much less Someone who should be giving me Advice or mock the People I division with.......

If anything. You should maybe listen carefully to what I say. And maybe Try it. Because its Pretty Obvious that my Method is Working far Better than whatever you are doing currently.

And now Lets Pretend you never seriously Attempted to Advice me on Playing CVs while Flaunting your Stats into my Face alright......

9.

Good Joke.

And a Fitting Opinion for most of the CV Players in this Game.

Except your not the Leader of the Team. Others are not Obliged to Follow you or your Orders. Neither are you obliged to Follow theirs.

This kind of Mindset is what Breeds that Idea that a CV must be Overpowered and Superior to others and thus results in CV Players starting to feel Entitled and thus Stop Playing unless they can just massacre everyone without having any Skill while Blaming the Team for the Loss even tough they were the one Playing the most Influental Class in the Game.

A CV is not a Slave to the Team. But also not its Leader.

He is not even Part of the Team.......

10.

Currently it seems your much more Challenged by other CVs than by Ark Royal.......

11.

So if I shove a Candle up into my Teams Rear to make them Move Faster thats also Teamplay Right *gg*

Sorry Mate. But this is just empty Words and Catchphrases.

Teamplay is the Act of Cooperation of 2 or more People to Achieve a Target.

And thats what other Classes have to do if they want to Win.

A CV however doesnt need to Cooperate to Win. He has to Kill the Enemy Team Faster than the Enemy CV Kills his. And to that End it doesnt matter if he Sacrifices or Ignores his Team.

Albeit with that unfortunately very common Mindset of CV Players seeing themselves as some sort of Admiral I can very well Understand why you would even consider it Teamplay for the Pawn in Chess to stand in Front as a Sacrifice so the Queen can take the Kill when the Enemy Knight moves to Kill the Pawn. After all. For you the one Considering himself the Queen. This surely is Great Teamplay.

I just doubt that the Pawn considers it Teamplay this way....................

Capra76 · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

see this thing, but I do not agree. And, there you name it, where I see the difference.

Yes a good DD and a good BB. However a bad DD and bad BB do not become ineffective - for themselves.

I see plenty BBs that hang around back spamming HE, and well, in the end they move in - and they end up on top of teamlist scoring highest XP.

Same thing (and you have enough experience to know how) with DDs and cruisers.

Difference is that with surface ships the lack of teamplay is down to the players, with CV it's down to the mechanics.

747BeerDrop · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Oi. Thats quite detailed for a Forum Response. I cant say I agree with anything you say there. But at least I do appreciate your effort in actually explaining your Opinion.

1.

Its nice to End up on Top of the Scoring. But doing alot of Damage by Farming Enemy BBs and then Still losing cause you just Egoistically Farmed Damage is going to hurt your Winrate.

Meanwhile for the CV its the Opposite. The CV if Plays Egoistically will actually be more likely to Win. After all. DDs are the Best Paying Targets for him.

And thats the Core Difference Mate.

For Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships. Playing with the Team makes you Win. While for a CV what makes you Win is to Play alone.

And No. A Good CV pretty much entirely Ignores the Team. He only does what it Strategically Best for him in the Situation.

2.

And what use does it have for me that others can Kill the Enemy CV better than me ? Did you Forget. I am the CV too. The Enemy can Kill me just as Badly. He is no Threat to me. I could not care less about him in Fact lol.

And lol. Mate no Offense.

But do you really think this kind of Game would be Possible without my Team Supporting me ?

Reveal hidden contents

I can tell you. As a DD, CA or BB. When I get this kind of Results its almost Guaranteed that at least a few Teammates worked properly together with me.

As a CV when I get this kind of Result its usually because my Team was entirely Potato and thus I had to do everything alone.

3.

Except that for the BB. The DD is a Relevant Teammate which he needs to work properly.

As a CV this Choice of Attacking a Target thats already down just to kill it before it takes out a Teammate is never even Occurs. Because its a waste of time. I am better off dealing Damage to other Targets which are Relevant to the Game.

4.

And how many Smokes can the DD do before he will Die ?

Funny enough. Dropping a Fighter on your End of the Capture Point can sometimes be one of the Special Occassions where it makes sense. Because it means the DD can go there without wasting a Smoke.

But it doesnt really Affect what I said.

The Fact remains that Providing this kind of Support is mostly useless. Your Example doesnt change that either. Especially because Fighters die too fast as to spot a Cruiser long enough that he can be farmed.

You would do better to Bomb such an Exposed Cruiser so he is forced to turn broadside and cant maneuver freely to evade incoming fire. That would actually be more Helpful for the Team in that Moment. Even if its less Teamwork and more a Coinciding Interest.

5.

Many of them cant. For others it takes quite a bit of Time to React to the Map Situation. You cant just go from left to Right flank in a minute like the CV can do.

But more Importandly. Before the Map is Importand. The more Importand part for you is to Deal with your current Position.

6.

Or you Drop em on Purpose on the Douche so he is out of the Game Fast and gives you a Gun Advantage.

This is irrelevant Mate. Because as a CV you Prioritize Targets that you can Kill Fast and which Hurts the Enemy Team.

And No lol. Other Ships Fight each other Directly. They are not Racing each other.

Between two CVs the Game Ends when one of the CVs managed to kill the other CVs Team Faster than the Enemy CV killed his.

For the other Ships its about Kill or be Killed.

7.

But I do :)

8.

Uhhhh. Mate. I will be Blunt. I Apologize First about what I am going to Say. I really mean no Offense in it. But for the Argument its Required to Point it out Honestly.

But in your Case. The Reason you Win more in Division is Actually because Your not a Good CV Player in the First Place. Putting it Bluntly. The Reason why you Win more with Divisions. Is because your Division Mates are likely Carrying you alot.

And this is also Obvious from your own Screenshot Showing your Stats there. Because while your Winrate Improves. Your own Performance actually Drops. Which is in Fact Proving my Point.

So dont get me Wrong there Mate. Unlike most Others I think anyones Opinion should be taken Seriously Regardless of his Statistics.

But you Telling Me that I am doing something Wrong. And then Pointing your Statistics into my Face. Is Pretty Laughable.

Because I am Sorry to be Blunt again. But you are Really not someone others Should Look to when they want to know how to Properly Play a CV. And your much less Someone who should be giving me Advice or mock the People I division with.......

If anything. You should maybe listen carefully to what I say. And maybe Try it. Because its Pretty Obvious that my Method is Working far Better than whatever you are doing currently.

And now Lets Pretend you never seriously Attempted to Advice me on Playing CVs while Flaunting your Stats into my Face alright......

9.

Good Joke.

And a Fitting Opinion for most of the CV Players in this Game.

Except your not the Leader of the Team. Others are not Obliged to Follow you or your Orders. Neither are you obliged to Follow theirs.

This kind of Mindset is what Breeds that Idea that a CV must be Overpowered and Superior to others and thus results in CV Players starting to feel Entitled and thus Stop Playing unless they can just massacre everyone without having any Skill while Blaming the Team for the Loss even tough they were the one Playing the most Influental Class in the Game.

A CV is not a Slave to the Team. But also not its Leader.

He is not even Part of the Team.......

10.

Currently it seems your much more Challenged by other CVs than by Ark Royal.......

11.

So if I shove a Candle up into my Teams Rear to make them Move Faster thats also Teamplay Right *gg*

Sorry Mate. But this is just empty Words and Catchphrases.

Teamplay is the Act of Cooperation of 2 or more People to Achieve a Target.

And thats what other Classes have to do if they want to Win.

A CV however doesnt need to Cooperate to Win. He has to Kill the Enemy Team Faster than the Enemy CV Kills his. And to that End it doesnt matter if he Sacrifices or Ignores his Team.

Albeit with that unfortunately very common Mindset of CV Players seeing themselves as some sort of Admiral I can very well Understand why you would even consider it Teamplay for the Pawn in Chess to stand in Front as a Sacrifice so the Queen can take the Kill when the Enemy Knight moves to Kill the Pawn. After all. For you the one Considering himself the Queen. This surely is Great Teamplay.

I just doubt that the Pawn considers it Teamplay this way....................

I find DDs are a lot of fun to play in the game.

Sunleader · May 21, 2020

1 minute ago, 747BeerDrop said:

I find DDs are a lot of fun to play in the game.

And that is Related to my Post how exactly ? ^^

ForlornSailor · May 21, 2020

5 hours ago, Figment said:

We're not talking something that can single handedly turn the tide

Ah we are not? Ive seen quite a few times a CV turn a 2vs5 situation into a win. Or 3vs6 comes to mind aswell. 3vs7or8 where we almost took the win aswell simply because of the CV in our divi. So yea, your argument = invalid. Since the right player does it and does it regulary.

Deckeru_Maiku · May 21, 2020

5 hours ago, Mards said:

Has anybody noticed that right now we get about the same number of CV's as before the carrier re-work?

That's true for the T6, T8 and T10 CVs which rarely show up in battles.

At T4 though, it's rare to not have a battle with 2 CV per side, soooo... nope, that was way different when we had proper - RTS - CVs...

And it's probably the main reason why WG sees the reeework as a "success". While many players don't... especially those playing low tier often...

BLUB__BLUB · May 21, 2020

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Oi. Thats quite detailed for a Forum Response. I cant say I agree with anything you say there. But at least I do appreciate your effort in actually explaining your Opinion.

We can disagree,. In the end I already said you'd see it otherwise, as you are a much better player.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

1.

Its nice to End up on Top of the Scoring. But doing alot of Damage by Farming Enemy BBs and then Still losing cause you just Egoistically Farmed Damage is going to hurt your Winrate.

Meanwhile for the CV its the Opposite. The CV if Plays Egoistically will actually be more likely to Win. After all. DDs are the Best Paying Targets for him.

And thats the Core Difference Mate.

For Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships. Playing with the Team makes you Win. While for a CV what makes you Win is to Play alone.

And No. A Good CV pretty much entirely Ignores the Team. He only does what it Strategically Best for him in the Situation.

I do not agree with that at all.

A good CV imo does what is needed to win the game. Which may sometimes be just farming damage.

And you are better off not ignoring the team. What they do (or don't do) means you can pick up the slack or profit.

But if you are in a div, you'll do better working together even in a CV.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

2.

And what use does it have for me that others can Kill the Enemy CV better than me ? Did you Forget. I am the CV too. The Enemy can Kill me just as Badly. He is no Threat to me. I could not care less about him in Fact lol.

And lol. Mate no Offense.

But do you really think this kind of Game would be Possible without my Team Supporting me ?

Reveal hidden contents

I can tell you. As a DD, CA or BB. When I get this kind of Results its almost Guaranteed that at least a few Teammates worked properly together with me.

As a CV when I get this kind of Result its usually because my Team was entirely Potato and thus I had to do everything alone.

Yes I think those games are possible without any support. Also I do not understand why this is proof.

Fact is: That damage is not really big... the kills are. Team help?

I have seen it done people spamming HE from long range and then getting 7 kills on ships that were low as FF.

Not saying you did that here, of course. But if you think 135K in a T9 Bb is fitting that 7 kills... lots of finish-offs, probably.

Doesn't mean your teammates were working with you. I can't really say from 135k and 7 kills.

Could have been they all potatoed in a Lemmking and you were going the other way and finished off everything.

Now how would that be "great help". So, explain.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

3.

Except that for the BB. The DD is a Relevant Teammate which he needs to work properly.

You underestimate the importance of other ships to the CV. Maybe because you're good, I dunno.

Here is what I am trying to tell you, get down a bit from that high pedestal and take a look at potato weekend life.

If they do not stop an attack, you will have a hard time stopping it before they get you.

Especially in something that depends on DoT like Ark Royal. IJN CV, not so much (blap happens a lot).

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

As a CV this Choice of Attacking a Target thats already down just to kill it before it takes out a Teammate is never even Occurs. Because its a waste of time. I am better off dealing Damage to other Targets which are Relevant to the Game.

Yeah kills are rare in some CVs. Especially if you come in with slow planes, and you are spotting that low-health target all that time, guess what.

You only get to kill him if nobody else can reach him and that is when you should kill him, else just spot him and let a teammate finish him.

Most kills I ever managed in AR was 4. It usually happens when there are no other ships left, then I have to (or can) start killing them.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

4.

And how many Smokes can the DD do before he will Die ?

Funny enough. Dropping a Fighter on your End of the Capture Point can sometimes be one of the Special Occassions where it makes sense. Because it means the DD can go there without wasting a Smoke.

But it doesnt really Affect what I said.

The Fact remains that Providing this kind of Support is mostly useless. Your Example doesnt change that either. Especially because Fighters die too fast as to spot a Cruiser long enough that he can be farmed.

You would do better to Bomb such an Exposed Cruiser so he is forced to turn broadside and cant maneuver freely to evade incoming fire. That would actually be more Helpful for the Team in that Moment. Even if its less Teamwork and more a Coinciding Interest.

I'm not saying i don't bomb that cruiser (cause I will). I think blapping that cruiser will do more good for my DD that those "protective fighters".

That is not what it is about. The thing was about the fighters. And note that if I have teammates, one will be in the cap - and the other one will also be farming that cruiser.

I'm saying that it is usually more useful to drop a fighter where it spots. Giving a DD aircover - well, usually not so much, indeed.

But I do not think we disagree much here though.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

5.

Many of them cant. For others it takes quite a bit of Time to React to the Map Situation. You cant just go from left to Right flank in a minute like the CV can do.

But more Importandly. Before the Map is Importand. The more Importand part for you is to Deal with your current Position.

They can see the map just as fine as me though. And indeed I can go from right to left in a minute or so.

And then I can deliver some presents. However they can deliver presents much faster, albeit in a shorter distance.

If my DD divvy is in torpedo reach of a BB, I have no problems dropping torps to that BBs rear (he'll usually go straight...) and alerting my DD...

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

6.

Or you Drop em on Purpose on the Douche so he is out of the Game Fast and gives you a Gun Advantage.

This is irrelevant Mate. Because as a CV you Prioritize Targets that you can Kill Fast and which Hurts the Enemy Team.

And No lol. Other Ships Fight each other Directly. They are not Racing each other.

Between two CVs the Game Ends when one of the CVs managed to kill the other CVs Team Faster than the Enemy CV killed his.

For the other Ships its about Kill or be Killed.

The game is rarely between two CVs though. I mostly end in top 3-5. The other CV is much lower on the results ladder.

That says to me I outdid the other CV, win or lose. No problems there.

But actually I meant you decide if you drop fighters on a teammate if they are useful, not if they are a douche.

For example I will not drop fighters on a Currywurst that thought he should go forward alone and now gets torped from 3 directions.

Because he is a douche and fighters cannot help him.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

7.

But I do :)

You may. As a really good player, you have a different viewpoint from where I am sitting.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

8.

Uhhhh. Mate. I will be Blunt. I Apologize First about what I am going to Say. I really mean no Offense in it. But for the Argument its Required to Point it out Honestly.

But in your Case. The Reason you Win more in Division is Actually because Your not a Good CV Player in the First Place. Putting it Bluntly. The Reason why you Win more with Divisions. Is because your Division Mates are likely Carrying you alot.

And this is also Obvious from your own Screenshot Showing your Stats there. Because while your Winrate Improves. Your own Performance actually Drops. Which is in Fact Proving my Point.

I have no problems with you being blunt. But I'll be blunt as wel. Look beyond your better CV-skills and don;t get stuck in "I am the better player"..

I am an average dude and play mostly in weekends. I cannot carry 11 potatoes in Ark Royal.

However I can do 48k average damage while the average is 38k. I end up higher than the other CV 99% of the games

Perhaps you should check the other CVs as wel. And as far as ships go, I am an average player.

It can't be a surprise. But I think you're a bit wrong. I am quite savvy as a CV player though not as good as you..

And yes my dmg drops. Because I help my divvies to achieve goals. So WR goes up, both for me and my divvies. Also means I usually do not get any kills (I leave it upto them).

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

So dont get me Wrong there Mate. Unlike most Others I think anyones Opinion should be taken Seriously Regardless of his Statistics.

But you Telling Me that I am doing something Wrong. And then Pointing your Statistics into my Face. Is Pretty Laughable.

Because I am Sorry to be Blunt again. But you are Really not someone others Should Look to when they want to know how to Properly Play a CV. And your much less Someone who should be giving me Advice or mock the People I division with.......

I'll also be blunt mate. It means you're not that good a teamplayer. This is not about who is the best CV player.

It also means you are BS as you're surely putting stats Ï am the better CV player" in front as to claim you are right.

You should also have a re-read. I'm not mocking you or the people that you are in division with.

I'm joking about it. In fact I'm quite sure you and the peeps that you division with are quite good, probably all 70%.

But it is obvious your teamplay sucks, and you are now pulling CV-stats to claim you are correct.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

If anything. You should maybe listen carefully to what I say. And maybe Try it. Because its Pretty Obvious that my Method is Working far Better than whatever you are doing currently.

And now Lets Pretend you never seriously Attempted to Advice me on Playing CVs while Flaunting your Stats into my Face alright......

Lets pretend what? Tadaaa and again, I'm not advising you how to play CV. You are clearly better.

Also, you can hardly call it "flaunting" when I put those stats.

I'm pointing out to you that, even in CV, teamplay IS A THING that can make you perform better.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

9.

Good Joke.

And a Fitting Opinion for most of the CV Players in this Game.

Except your not the Leader of the Team. Others are not Obliged to Follow you or your Orders. Neither are you obliged to Follow theirs.

This kind of Mindset is what Breeds that Idea that a CV must be Overpowered and Superior to others and thus results in CV Players starting to feel Entitled and thus Stop Playing unless they can just massacre everyone without having any Skill while Blaming the Team for the Loss even tough they were the one Playing the most Influental Class in the Game.

I'm thinking here somebody has a big obvious problem where it comes to teamplay.

Also I'm not saying CVs should be overpowered or whatever, because they're bad enough.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

A CV is not a Slave to the Team. But also not its Leader.

He is not even Part of the Team.......

That is where you are wrong. I'll put it bluntly then. Are you that guy @El2aZeR means when he says "the guy in a group project that never shows up to meetings,

refuses to communicate with any group members and in the end depending solely on his own level of competency either delivers stunning results or drags the whole group down."

Which would explain why you do no better (OR WORSE) in a group than alone, except if you behave like aforementioned guy.

I am not that guy. I do better in a group, because we help eachother.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

10.

Currently it seems your much more Challenged by other CVs than by Ark Royal.......

Maybe you should look better. Solo stats in IJN CVs look fine. Haven't really dug into Hakuryu yet (just to spade it for CB).

I'm not challenged at all. For example I sort of went ASAP to Kaga when it was announced that CB would have Cvs.

Didn't have the greatest games... because helping others to grind ships. Actual teamwork, not treating them like they were other randoms.

I play to have fun, preferably with some friends, and someday somehow I'll get good, listening to tips and tricks.

Though you can indeed farm harder in some CVs than in others.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

11.

So if I shove a Candle up into my Teams Rear to make them Move Faster thats also Teamplay Right *gg*

Sorry Mate. But this is just empty Words and Catchphrases.

Yes it is. You are acting like you do not understand. Empty words and catchphrases, indeed. I do believe the CV should call the shots, mostly. But not that he should be a dictator.

So of course I do not shove candles up their rear. Then I guess there is no use explaining if you think you do better if you treat your divvies like just another couple of randoms.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Teamplay is the Act of Cooperation of 2 or more People to Achieve a Target.

And thats what other Classes have to do if they want to Win.

A CV however doesnt need to Cooperate to Win. He has to Kill the Enemy Team Faster than the Enemy CV Kills his. And to that End it doesnt matter if he Sacrifices or Ignores his Team.

Actually, that is only true if he can also "outkill" the rest of the enemy team, or (in weekends) outkill the suiciding teammates.

You won't make it, not even with your stats. I've seen better ones and they can't do it either.

Note that El2azer has a WR of 80% in his Enty. Which means that 20% of the game either his team potatoes so hard he can't keep up, or the enemy team still outkills him.

I think the enemy CV outkilling him can be assumed not to be the case. So, even he cannot outkill the enemy CV, PLUS the enemy team, PLUS compensate suiciding teammates.

If he is in div(3) then his WR goes to a whopping 90%. Obviously... division matters. And then there is you, that says he does WORSE in divisions unless he treats his divvies as randoms.

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Albeit with that unfortunately very common Mindset of CV Players seeing themselves as some sort of Admiral I can very well Understand why you would even consider it Teamplay for the Pawn in Chess to stand in Front as a Sacrifice so the Queen can take the Kill when the Enemy Knight moves to Kill the Pawn. After all. For you the one Considering himself the Queen. This surely is Great Teamplay.

I just doubt that the Pawn considers it Teamplay this way....................

That's just you trying to be spiteful. But go ahead and farm harder, if you think that as "teamplay".

Let me remind you this is not about who is the better CV-player, there is no doubt that is you.

However it doe not mean you have any idea about teamplay. You state yourself, there is no teamplay.

When I put numbers that there definitely is, you come with "better CV player". That's no proof mate.

And as said, you look at it from a standpoint of being very good.

And probably it is as some say, those that are unicum fail to understand how others see it.

or do you?

BLUB__BLUB · May 21, 2020

2 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Ah we are not? Ive seen quite a few times a CV turn a 2vs5 situation into a win. Or 3vs6 comes to mind aswell. 3vs7or8 where we almost took the win aswell simply because of the CV in our divi. So yea, your argument = invalid. Since the right player does it and does it regulary.

Yeyeye we all know who that "the right player" is. :Smile_trollface:

I'd think he'll have no problem with a 3vs10 situation,

especially not if you and some other well-known forumite are the other 2. :Smile_veryhappy:

BLUB__BLUB · May 21, 2020

Seriously when in a CV-div with my clanmates and it is a 3vs6, it is do-able.

Because that they haven't stuffed it up so far that it is lost already.

Given time, it can be done. Because CVs are indeed OP.

Forget it though if all are in surface vessels.

Hey I also assume the six others do not contain "any of the usual suspects".

Because then it is a miracle we are not already dead.

Pikkozoikum · May 21, 2020

22 hours ago, AndyHill said:

So, how about that nuclear bomb? One time use per match, given to the team that loses the first ship so that it evens things out, kills everything within a 15km radius so that it can be used to defend a flank that is being overrun. No, I don't want to go any further in stupid analogies, but also no, any form of "cavalry" to the rescue is not fine and good by default.

Could be implemented, but it has to make sense. Like it has few minutes of travel time and early warning. So people has to leave the area. The flank would be covered by this nuclear bomb. Though I guess nuclear bombs are not really naval weapons, nor I would expect those in most warfare games. A mine field could do the same job.

Andrewbassg · May 21, 2020

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though I guess nuclear bombs are not really naval weapons, nor I would expect those in most warfare games.

Ermm..... the A-3 and A-5 beg to differ. Not to mention Vasily Arkhipov.

Sunleader · May 21, 2020

12 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

We can disagree,. In the end I already said you'd see it otherwise, as you are a much better player.

I do not agree with that at all.

A good CV imo does what is needed to win the game. Which may sometimes be just farming damage.

And you are better off not ignoring the team. What they do (or don't do) means you can pick up the slack or profit.

But if you are in a div, you'll do better working together even in a CV.

Yes I think those games are possible without any support. Also I do not understand why this is proof.

Fact is: That damage is not really big... the kills are. Team help?

I have seen it done people spamming HE from long range and then getting 7 kills on ships that were low as FF.

Not saying you did that here, of course. But if you think 135K in a T9 Bb is fitting that 7 kills... lots of finish-offs, probably.

Doesn't mean your teammates were working with you. I can't really say from 135k and 7 kills.

Could have been they all potatoed in a Lemmking and you were going the other way and finished off everything.

Now how would that be "great help". So, explain.

You underestimate the importance of other ships to the CV. Maybe because you're good, I dunno.

Here is what I am trying to tell you, get down a bit from that high pedestal and take a look at potato weekend life.

If they do not stop an attack, you will have a hard time stopping it before they get you.

Especially in something that depends on DoT like Ark Royal. IJN CV, not so much (blap happens a lot).

Yeah kills are rare in some CVs. Especially if you come in with slow planes, and you are spotting that low-health target all that time, guess what.

You only get to kill him if nobody else can reach him and that is when you should kill him, else just spot him and let a teammate finish him.

Most kills I ever managed in AR was 4. It usually happens when there are no other ships left, then I have to (or can) start killing them.

I'm not saying i don't bomb that cruiser (cause I will). I think blapping that cruiser will do more good for my DD that those "protective fighters".

That is not what it is about. The thing was about the fighters. And note that if I have teammates, one will be in the cap - and the other one will also be farming that cruiser.

I'm saying that it is usually more useful to drop a fighter where it spots. Giving a DD aircover - well, usually not so much, indeed.

But I do not think we disagree much here though.

They can see the map just as fine as me though. And indeed I can go from right to left in a minute or so.

And then I can deliver some presents. However they can deliver presents much faster, albeit in a shorter distance.

If my DD divvy is in torpedo reach of a BB, I have no problems dropping torps to that BBs rear (he'll usually go straight...) and alerting my DD...

The game is rarely between two CVs though. I mostly end in top 3-5. The other CV is much lower on the results ladder.

That says to me I outdid the other CV, win or lose. No problems there.

But actually I meant you decide if you drop fighters on a teammate if they are useful, not if they are a douche.

For example I will not drop fighters on a Currywurst that thought he should go forward alone and now gets torped from 3 directions.

Because he is a douche and fighters cannot help him.

You may. As a really good player, you have a different viewpoint from where I am sitting.

I have no problems with you being blunt. But I'll be blunt as wel. Look beyond your better CV-skills and don;t get stuck in "I am the better player"..

I am an average dude and play mostly in weekends. I cannot carry 11 potatoes in Ark Royal.

However I can do 48k average damage while the average is 38k. I end up higher than the other CV 99% of the games

Perhaps you should check the other CVs as wel. And as far as ships go, I am an average player.

It can't be a surprise. But I think you're a bit wrong. I am quite savvy as a CV player though not as good as you..

And yes my dmg drops. Because I help my divvies to achieve goals. So WR goes up, both for me and my divvies. Also means I usually do not get any kills (I leave it upto them).

I'll also be blunt mate. It means you're not that good a teamplayer. This is not about who is the best CV player.

It also means you are BS as you're surely putting stats Ï am the better CV player" in front as to claim you are right.

You should also have a re-read. I'm not mocking you or the people that you are in division with.

I'm joking about it. In fact I'm quite sure you and the peeps that you division with are quite good, probably all 70%.

But it is obvious your teamplay sucks, and you are now pulling CV-stats to claim you are correct.

Lets pretend what? Tadaaa and again, I'm not advising you how to play CV. You are clearly better.

Also, you can hardly call it "flaunting" when I put those stats.

I'm pointing out to you that, even in CV, teamplay IS A THING that can make you perform better.

I'm thinking here somebody has a big obvious problem where it comes to teamplay.

Also I'm not saying CVs should be overpowered or whatever, because they're bad enough.

That is where you are wrong. I'll put it bluntly then. Are you that guy @El2aZeR means when he says "the guy in a group project that never shows up to meetings,

refuses to communicate with any group members and in the end depending solely on his own level of competency either delivers stunning results or drags the whole group down."

Which would explain why you do no better (OR WORSE)  in a group than alone, except if you behave like aforementioned guy.

I am not that guy. I do better in a group, because we help eachother.

Maybe you should look better. Solo stats in IJN CVs look fine. Haven't really dug into Hakuryu yet (just to spade it for CB).

I'm not challenged at all. For example I sort of went ASAP to Kaga when it was announced that CB would have Cvs.

Didn't have the greatest games... because helping others to grind ships. Actual teamwork, not treating them like they were other randoms.

I play to have fun, preferably with some friends, and someday somehow I'll get good, listening to tips and tricks.

Though you can indeed farm harder in some CVs than in others.

Yes it is. You are acting like you do not understand. Empty words and catchphrases, indeed. I do believe the CV should call the shots, mostly. But not that he should be a dictator.

So of course I do not shove candles up their rear. Then I guess there is no use explaining if you think you do better if you treat your divvies like just another couple of randoms.

Actually, that is only true if he can also "outkill" the rest of the enemy team, or (in weekends) outkill the suiciding teammates.

You won't make it, not even with your stats. I've seen better ones and they can't do it either.

Note that El2azer has a WR of 80% in his Enty. Which means that 20% of the game either his team potatoes so hard he can't keep up, or the enemy team still outkills him.

I think the enemy CV outkilling him can be assumed not to be the case. So, even he cannot outkill the enemy CV, PLUS the enemy team, PLUS compensate suiciding teammates.

If he is in div(3) then his WR goes to a whopping 90%. Obviously... division matters. And then there is you, that says he does WORSE in divisions unless he treats his divvies as randoms.

That's just you trying to be spiteful. But go ahead and farm harder, if you think that as "teamplay".

Let me remind you this is not about who is the better CV-player, there is no doubt that is you.

However it doe not mean you have any idea about teamplay. You state yourself, there is no teamplay.

When I put numbers that there definitely is, you come with "better CV player". That's no proof mate.

And as said, you look at it from a standpoint of being very good.

And probably it is as some say, those that are unicum fail to understand how others see it.

or do you?

We Obviously Disagree lol

But its at least nice we both make Detailed Statements. This way its easier to wrap things up.

1.

I Disagree. And as you Said. I think when it comes to the Question of what a Good CV Player should do. I have the Upper hand.

2.

Then Sorry. But I think your Wrong ;)

You will NEVER get this kind of Result without Teamplay unless your in a CV :)

3.

Nope. Dont get me wrong here. But this is the thing which is wrong with WGs Spreadsheet. Small Calculation for you. We assume 2 Ships and 10100 Players (the strange number is to make maths simple)

On Ship A the 10.000 Average Players get an Average Performance of 1500 Points. While the 100 Unicums get a Rating of 1800 Points.

On Ship B the 10.000 Average Players get an Average Performance of 1400 Points. While the 100 Unicums however get a Freaking 2500 Points.

Now to me and hopefully also to you it should be absolutely Obviousl That Ship B is likely a bit Harder to Play but also Massively more Powerful than Ship A. This is basicly Sinop in Ranked right now.

But what does Spreadsheet Say ? What is the Opinion if we only look at the Average Guys and Weekend Players ?

Ship A has 10.000x1500+100x1800 and Ship B gets 10.000x1400+100x2500.

So according to Spreadsheet. Ship A has a Performance of Average 1502 Points. Meanwhile Ship B actually Shows a Performance of only 1410 Points.

Meaning that Clearly Ship B still needs to be Buffed according to this Viewpoint your telling me to Consider :)

And this is the thing. Right now if the other Classes are usually ranging with the 10.000 Average Players lurking around somewhere on 1200-1700 Points with Unicums sitting on maybe 2000-2500 Points. The 10.000 Average CV Players are lurking around on about 1300 Points while the 100 Unicum CV Players lurk at a freaking 3000-4000 Points already.

And while this might look nice in the Statistics. It is absolutely Terrible in terms of Gameplay Balance. Thats why you should NEVER Balance Purely by Average Statistics.

4.

Yep we Disagree.

5.

I dont think you can. Sorry.

6.

Nope. That just means the Enemy CV was Potato. Not an Uncommon thing really.

And well. Actually for the CV it is purely between the CVs. Cause everyone else could just as well be Bots. They are just Allied NPCs or Targets anyways.

7.

Yep.

8.

Thing is Mate. THIS IS ABOUT CVs. :)

If this was a Topic about DDs I would not even dare giving out Advice on anything. Because I am absolutely Terrible at Playing them :)

But its not. Its about CVs. And your telling me that I am playing them Wrong. Yet its very Obvious that I am really not ;)

Because the Fact is that Good CV Players are not doing Teamplay. They are Playing to Win and that they Do. Way better than the CVs which try to Teamplay :)

This is Similar to Kakashi in Naruto. The Teamwork of the CV is that the others try not to get into the Way of the CV and thats about it.

9.

And Yes lol. I am just that Guy Elazer talked about lol. So are the vast Majority of good CV Players. Because thats what the Mechanics work like.

See Mate. This is Where YOU are Wrong :)

Because this is why I do well in CVs while you Struggle.

10.

I looked at all your CVs. And I am not Impressed Sorry. Having a Few Exceptions wont change the Full Result.

Also. Mate. Your Ryujo you Played mostly Solo. And actually your Results are way worse in the few Games where you used it in Division.

11.

As I said. Look at the Results we both get. Then Decide for yourself which Method obviously works better.

Also Mate. No Offense your actually Defeating yourself there. Yes Of Course the CV cannot Compensate if his entire Team is Potatoes and just Yoloes into Suicide. A CV is Overpowered but its not God lol. It cant just Defeat the Entire Enemy Team alone. Thing is. The Division Mates he Brings will obviously not be Yoloing Potatoes. So take a guess why his Stats become better there ;) But thats not down to Teamwork. Its just because your Decreasing the Chance of having an all Potato Team by bringing in 2 other Palyers that are Guaranteed not Potatoes.

12.

Of course there is Teamplay lol. But that Teamplay is simply worse than Playing alone lol.

In case you didnt get this. We are not Saying that a CV cannot Support his Team. We are saying he should not do it. Because it hinders him in doing his Job which is Heavily Decreasing his Chances to Win the Match.

Think of it as a 1 vs 1 Game where each of you has 11 NPC Targets he has to Kill before the other Guy. Because thats basicly what it is for a CV. Sure you can go ahead and try to Roleplay Protecting your NPCs with Air Cover and Spotting. But during that Time the other Player will gain the Lead on you because even if you manage to Reduce his Damage you yourself will do absolutely no Damage at all in the Meantime. Thanks to which you end up Gimping your own Chances on Victory.

See Mate. You Say I dont understand. But as you correctly noticed already. I am only Unicum in CVs. I am nowhere close to that in other Ships. And I actually also Prioritizing Teamwork in other Ships :)

But we are not talking about other Ships. We are Talking about CVs. And in CVs the Truth is Unfortunately that Teamwork is your absolutely last Priority and should only be done as an side thing when your coincidently there anyways. Because giving it any Priority will make you Play worse :)

You can Disagree with that. Thats fine. But thats just how it is. And believe me. You yourself could also be way Better in CVs if instead of trying to Support your Team you started to instead just Focusing on taking out the Importand Enemy Targets as fast as possible and not waste Time trying to help your Teammates. And that Includes your Division Mates. If you got 2 Good Div Mates they should just play like they are a Double Division. While you still do the exactly same you would do if your Alone. And believe me. This will actually Work better ;)

Pikkozoikum · May 21, 2020

3 hours ago, Andrewbassg said:

Ermm..... the A-3 and A-5 beg to differ. Not to mention Vasily Arkhipov.

so?

Andrewbassg · May 21, 2020

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

so?

Nothing really :) I just pointed out that nuclear or atomic warfare WAS part of (past?) naval doctrines. Not that I have (any) desire to see that in the game:)

General CV related discussions.

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