General CV related discussions.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

8 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

I meant losing both squads in a very short amount of time.

That would qualify as a major misplay is why I probably misread it as I don't consider misplays important for this discussion. 

 

The F accel bail works right in the short range. 

Even after regaining camera control your planes stay invulnerable for 2 more seconds. So if you press F while planes are Max boosted they keep the boosted speed after F. They reach invul altitude way faster and the 2 extra seconds of invulnerability will make you maybe lose 1 plane at max during such a bailout. 

 

Therefore pressing F during full boosted drop animation will always save your planes no matter how much AA you are in. It's a known exploit. 

[redraven]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Well Mate. When your with the Back to the Wall and its go Forward or Die then I for my Part at least know the Choice I will make.

At this Point they really dont have a Choice if you ask me. They have to somehow Fix the CVs and make them an Acceptable Part of the Game.

 

And for Fairness Said. WG is not as Deaf as most People think.

I pointed this out recently already. But WG has Silently taken Step after Step to bring CVs down. WG is still Scared to just bring out the Nerf Hammer as they dont want to Lose the few CV Players they Finally got. So they dont make any Big or Obvious Moves.

 

But Check the Ships coming out Lately. Check the New CVs they are making.

 

Russian BBs ? AA Monsters.

Italian Cruisers ? Friggin Smoke and Decent AA.

British Cruisers ? Friggin Super Heal and Strong AA.

Swedish DDs ? Yep you Guessed Right. Friggin Heal and AA Monsters on top Equipped with DefAA lol.

Upgrade Rework ? Yep. Suddenly the Secondary Guns Upgrade also Improves AA. So most German BBs just got AA Buff.

Have you Checked the Russian Cruisers they are Adding. Wanna take a Guess yourself or should I just tell you ? Yep. Freaking Silly Strong AA with High Range and Def AA....

 

How about new CVs ?

 

Roosevelt is gonna be Super Slow.

German CVs will be AP Rockets and Torpedoes that my Grandma could Dodge if she Saw them 2 Minutes after the Match Ended.

Prior New CVs werent exactly Hits either. Indomitable is basicly good against DDs and thats it.

Ark Royal is pretty Strong but also Super Slow so you get like 1 Strike every 2-3 minutes.

 

 

Lately for some Reason WG has been Stacking the Deck more and more Against CVs. Subtle and in Tiny Steps one by one.

Why do you think they are doing that ? :)

 

 

The Reason is Called Spreadsheet.

WG might Claim otherwise. But Spreadsheet tells em that CVs are too Strong.

But Spreadsheet works by Averages. So the more Ships CVs have Problem with. The more CVs are Pushed Down.

And WG will keep adding more and more Ships that CVs will have Problems with. Till there is so many of them that CVs are Reigned back into the Average.

Yes thats true but here is the issue. Its not solving the problem.
What WG is doing is similar to: You have a hole in your wall. And instead of fixing it you just cover it up with a picture.
 

Putting in more ships with absolute god-tier AA isnt solving the core issues of CVs. Hell it just adds to the already rampant powercreep thats killing older ships left and right. Giving everything so mutch AA that CVS simply can not approach them isnt solving anything. At most its a stopgap solution.

[BLUB__BLUB]

32 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

The point ain't "Oh I lost all my planes, damm it" it's "I can't afford to do this attack even though I know I need to do it to turn around the match yet at the same time the probability of it being succesful isn't great too". Minimap ain't the holy grail, I could be watching at a last known position from 5 minutes ago and said DD could already be at the other side of the map.

Well yeah he could. But you say "they" should be watching minimap.

Most of the times when I do such stuff my planes aren't spotted at all. 

Because I'll approach from the other side of the mountain & drop bombs. 

Or with torps, good luck to them changing position. I can change faster. 

Let them turn in smoke, I'll torp that fat BB first and then return to do them over anyway.

 

About Minimap, have a good time predicting what the CV will do next.

IF you see his planes coming at all, you have little time to react. 

Because they're a lot faster than a DD... yet you expect THEM to do it. 

 

Point is, you think you need to do it to turn around the match.

Well, sometimes you can't do it because the reds just give good play. 

And if you could ALWAYS do it, without sacrifice, it is a sign CVs are OP-broken AF. 

Which they are... most of the times. 

 

I'm not gonna complain because, sometimes, and I really really mean SOMEtimes, they are not. 

[Alfa_Tau]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

The Reason is Called Spreadsheet.

WG might Claim otherwise. But Spreadsheet tells em that CVs are too Strong.

But Spreadsheet works by Averages. So the more Ships CVs have Problem with. The more CVs are Pushed Down.

And WG will keep adding more and more Ships that CVs will have Problems with. Till there is so many of them that CVs are Reigned back into the Average.

Well it's only my opinion but I think the reason why WG is hammering step by step Cv is NOT the spreadsheet. 

It's simply because of too many people COMPLAINING about CV : which is different from facts. 

Perception is reality. If I play BB and get burned by air strike and then complain cause I got "burned by CV", there is a good probability I wont buy premium ship or premium time or whatever… 

Doesn'tr matter then I got burned cause I dedcided to repair a single fire (which many many player still do) 

The fault is of the OP CV not my "skilled" decision making.

Another Example: 

DD almost Always RUN to cap at the start. This is so difficult to predict for any CV… really requires a paranormal capacity… 

Guess what? they find a rocket sqaudron on their way lose 5/6 K damage are spotted perhaps focused by Others enemies and tosted in 2 minutes.. 

Again the fault rest on CV … they are tooo strong…. 

 

My perception (and I am not using this word by chance) :

since I joined the game in 2015 I have seen many complains ; and I think this is quite normal inside a game community. But lately I see a lot of whining without critics. Last example the Odin shipyard. People started to whine about the impossible grind without even looking at the missions and directives. that are absolutely normal or even very easy. 

 

[steveraptor]

21 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

That would qualify as a major misplay is why I probably misread it as I don't consider misplays important for this discussion. 

 

The F accel bail works right in the short range. 

Even after regaining camera control your planes stay invulnerable for 2 more seconds. So if you press F while planes are Max boosted they keep the boosted speed after F. They reach invul altitude way faster and the 2 extra seconds of invulnerability will make you maybe lose 1 plane at max during such a bailout. 

 

Therefore pressing F during full boosted drop animation will always save your planes no matter how much AA you are in. It's a known exploit. 

I guess this won't work in long ranges, because I have seen several occasions that entire plane squadrons gets wiped by flak at max altitude.

[OVanBruce]

23 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

That would qualify as a major misplay is why I probably misread it as I don't consider misplays important for this discussion. 

 

The F accel bail works right in the short range. 

Even after regaining camera control your planes stay invulnerable for 2 more seconds. So if you press F while planes are Max boosted they keep the boosted speed after F. They reach invul altitude way faster and the 2 extra seconds of invulnerability will make you maybe lose 1 plane at max during such a bailout. 

 

Therefore pressing F during full boosted drop animation will always save your planes no matter how much AA you are in. It's a known exploit. 

I see, I certainly didn't know about this. Good to know.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

7 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

I guess this won't work in long ranges, because I have seen several occasions that entire plane squadrons gets wiped by flak at max altitude.

It should be avoided if DFAA is active. Normal flak is not enough to kill planes. 

When the planes are boosted the amount of time they spend in flak is reduced too. 

The planes that are being obliterated are likely due to the boost not being executed correctly and fast. If you boost F to late you lose seconds on invul during the climb. 

[steveraptor]

6 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It should be avoided if DFAA is active. Normal flak is not enough to kill planes. 

When the planes are boosted the amount of time they spend in flak is reduced too. 

The planes that are being obliterated are likely due to the boost not being executed correctly and fast. If you boost F to late you lose seconds on invul during the climb. 

Learned something new today, thanks.

[AndyHill]

3 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

It's mostly a psichological factor of "if there was no CV I could have done X, Y or Z" so instead of thinking on new tactics or methods to account for the presence of a CV most players simply blame the presence of the CV because it's easier.

 

6 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

...if you want to do strikes on strategically important targets lots of times they are always there, multiple stacking AA auras. Sure I can always go strike the potato Kurfurst or Yamato/Musashi that is on the back doing nothing while a team of said ships absolutely murders my DDs and definetly put the enemy team on the track to winning.

Sounds to me like those Kurfursts, Yamatos and Musashis in the back line figured out the magical new tactics and methods of not getting crabbed on by planes.

[BLUB__BLUB]

45 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

I see, I certainly didn't know about this. Good to know.

Not sure if you know the whole shebang then.

 

If you attack "certain ships" you need to:

- use the heal (too bad, only torpedo planes have heal);

- boost to the max (make sure you have plenty boost left);

- keep boost until press F. 

 

You press the boost at the moment you get the AA-waring, preferable a bit sooner. 

Some moment you develop an "instinct", you know when the warning is coming. 

When you hit the AA, you use the heal (on torp-planes). 

Start pressing FFFFFFFFF as soon as they have dropped. Left-click and hammer that F.

 

And yes when they use Def-AA you still lose lots of planes. 

But you can tease them, for example use the last one/two of a rocket squad to trigger them. 

Eh, this doesn't work with Ark Royal though as planes are very slow. Cooldown is not that long...

 

Also, you can start the attack with DBs a lot sooner than you think. 

The sooner you start, the less chance your "spare squad" takes hits. 

Because as soon as you start the attack they go waayyyy up.

This is why it is best to take ships from the front, you can usually do it at 5km ahead. 

 

[Capra76]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes, similar to CV-attack:

- make yourself the furthest away, stay hidden, use island (he cannot drop torps that short...), stick with a teammate...

 

Not really, against HE spammers you have offensive options, blind fire or torpedo smoke, use island cover to close the distance, if you can't shoot at them then maybe somebody else on your team can; against CV your options are purely defensive and even then if a good CV player wants you then you are dead.

 

This is borne out by the survival rates for the classes, Smol/Worcester are about 36% so somebody's benefiting from having them in game, CV in contrast are about 75% and for the 25% that do go down I'd suggest that's usually the last ship in an already lost game.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

7 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Not sure if you know the whole shebang then.

 

If you attack "certain ships" you need to:

- use the heal (too bad, only torpedo planes have heal);

- boost to the max (make sure you have plenty boost left);

- keep boost until press F. 

 

You press the boost at the moment you get the AA-waring, preferable a bit sooner. 

Some moment you develop an "instinct", you know when the warning is coming. 

When you hit the AA, you use the heal (on torp-planes). 

Start pressing FFFFFFFFF as soon as they have dropped. Left-click and hammer that F.

 

And yes when they use Def-AA you still lose lots of planes. 

But you can tease them, for example use the last one/two of a rocket squad to trigger them. 

Eh, this doesn't work with Ark Royal though as planes are very slow. Cooldown is not that long...

 

Also, you can start the attack with DBs a lot sooner than you think. 

The sooner you start, the less chance your "spare squad" takes hits. 

Because as soon as you start the attack they go waayyyy up.

This is why it is best to take ships from the front, you can usually do it at 5km ahead. 

 

A lot of misinformation here. 

Please be careful how you explain things as crucial details are missing. 

 

I don't have the time or energy to correct most of the information you just gave. 

Please be careful about the info you are putting out or how you are explaining it. 

 

One example is the diving distance. If you engage a ship with Dbs from 5km away you will whiff every time. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Not really, against HE spammers you have offensive options, blind fire or torpedo smoke,

Well, if you "blind fire"then:

- you are detected yourself (if you were not);

- torpedo the smoke --> not that many BBs have torpedoes...

 

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

use island cover to close the distance,

You mean you have to go undetected. Yes you can. But then you can't blindfire... 

BTW that is assuming you are not already chased by 2 of them and perma-burning in 3 places. 

 

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

if you can't shoot at them then maybe somebody else on your team can;

Yes you may hope so. Usually though, they just "kill secure" him when he is almost dead. 

In my case, when the last shell from my dead BB has left the barrel, on the way to their citadel... 

 

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

against CV your options are purely defensive and even then if a good CV player wants you then you are dead.

That is usually correct. I'm not saying CVs aren't broken OP though. A good player can abuse that.

But there's more ships like that, too. 

 

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

This is borne out by the survival rates for the classes, Smol/Worcester are about 36% so somebody's benefiting from having them in game, CV in contrast are about 75% and for the 25% that do go down I'd suggest that's usually the last ship in an already lost game.

Correct as well. Even a CV cannot always carry some teams. 

[CptBarney]

if you go into attack mode with midway dive bombers and you don't drop anything will you still get a long cooldown?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

if you go into attack mode with midway dive bombers and you don't drop anything will you still get a long cooldown?

Yes

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Yes

Ahh, i see...

[BLUB__BLUB]

21 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

A lot of misinformation here. 

Please be careful how you explain things as crucial details are missing. 

 

I don't have the time or energy to correct most of the information you just gave. 

Please be careful about the info you are putting out or how you are explaining it. 

 

One example is the diving distance. If you engage a ship with Dbs from 5km away you will whiff every time. 

Well yes, not very accurate. But depends what CV you have. But I was amazed at how far I could start ahead with some CVs.

I make sure to have them "at speed" already before I start the attack. 

[Nibenay78]

4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Of course. Exposing yourself is risky and overextending gets usually punished really quick. And it is clear that more spotting reduces the opportunity to go all on your own on a flank unscathed and throw torps for 10min.

It's a risk that offers the chance to deal significant damage, or to die fast, as we both agree, the higher chance of spot or inability to go dark (even in a BB), means the risk vs payoff becomes worse. In most ships you can always hazard a guess where the DDs are or noticing where other stealth ships are and adapt. They won't come jumping on you. This is not relevant once a wild CV appears.

 

4 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

What I meant is that speed is still key. A good push will still win. A CV can do its farming best towards the end of a game. The longer the game lasts the better for the CV. A CV can disturb pushes but ppl tend to vastly overestimate the impact of CV attacks. BBs turn full broadside in front of the enemy just to avoid a 2k torp hit for example or even turn around completely. I had a fun game recently in a PEF (I know - a monster of a ship ) and made a relatively quick push together  with a Mainz and two other dudes on one side after killing the cap contester on that side. We could easily hunt down the enemy Lexington and while he certainly harassed and annoyed us (he may have killed one not sure) a little there is no way he could win this. Unless his team saves him but we all know how well most team plays play out. Afterward we had the enemy CV out of the way and a beautiful crossfire on the enemy blob. Just an example.

 

In General I find it amusing how a lot of bad play is blamed on a CV’s presence.

I again agree with you, people do dumb stuff because of minor damage and time gives CVs opportunity to work. Speed is useful but often there is not much opportunity to push up. My most frustrating even with CVs was having one spotted early game, immediately popping spotter plane to get range. Landed 14 of 24 shells on him at max range with Montana, all bounced on the deck. No resilience there eh?

 

Bad play will always be around. CVs do not invite to good play. Remember randoms are mostly 12 random individuals on a team and mosty look out for themselves. I'm always amazed when I find someone that communicates ingame...

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

The Hosho problem is created by the community. 

T4 CVs were very boring and a bit powerless feeling in the beginning of the rework and the playerbase cried for a buff. 

 

They got the buff and now t4CVs are a mess because WG granted that wish. 

Doesn't WG always make the right decisions based on their almighty spreadsheets? And why isn't it removed again when it obviously isn't working well? How much data must they gather before that is realized?

[Capra76]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, if you "blind fire"then:

- you are detected yourself (if you were not); 

- torpedo the smoke --> not that many BBs have torpedoes...

 

You mean you have to go undetected. Yes you can. But then you can't blindfire... 

BTW that is assuming you are not already chased by 2 of them and perma-burning in 3 places. 

 

They're options for you or your team, they may not be applicable in all circumstances but there are counterplays available, which is not something you can generally say about CV.

 

 

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That is usually correct. I'm not saying CVs aren't broken OP though. A good player can abuse that.

But there's more ships like that, too. 

 

I don't see the equivilence, sure HE spam may be annoying but you can fight back against it, CV are broken in a much more fundamental way.

 

In any event what's the alternative to HE spam?  BB imune to return fire from other classes?  Why have other classes then?

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

They're options for you or your team, they may not be applicable in all circumstances but there are counterplays available, which is not something you can generally say about CV.

yes, but the thing is - a smart player will not allow it.

You will never see him and he will burn you down.

 

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

I don't see the equivilence, sure HE spam may be annoying but you can fight back against it, CV are broken in a much more fundamental way.

Agreed Cvs are broken. But if you have a good player... well you are screwed, HE or CV.
because yes you can counter HE-spam, but you'll not be given the occasion.

 

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

In any event what's the alternative to HE spam?  BB imune to return fire from other classes?  Why have other classes then?

Not much really. And I do not object. Wish WG had done the reeeeework better.

[El2aZeR]

8 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

You know that not even halve of the times "accel and bail" is possible or is as harmless and easy as you say it. "usually even a second attack is possible without the slightest strain on your reserves", yeah, no losing your whole torp squad for a couple of attacks on Haku leaves you crippled for the rest of the match, same with any of the other type of planes

 

As others have already stated, an accel bail uses the slingshot mechanic to reach immunity altitude faster after an attack and can therefore always be executed.

Losing a single torp squadron does really nothing in the grand scheme of things. As long as the damage isn't wasted it's all good. It's actually what I do at the beginning of a CB match, just sacrifice an entire torp squad for damage. No issues with it whatsoever and I deal about 110k avg dmg in CBs last I checked.

 

8 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

I put into doubt your definition of murder, as delivering damage to tier X ships is way less consequential given how many tools they got to mitigate damage and you seem to be completely ignoring any RNG element on bombs.

 

Damage output of T10 CVs is adequate enough to offset the healing factor of T10 ships.

Given sufficient skill on part of the CV there are no tools to mitigate damage.

RNG on bombs is fairly negligible unless you decide to attack DDs, at which point it depends on the DD in question.

 

8 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

You are just bragging at this point.

 

No, I'm just telling the truth. T10 AA is thoroughly inadequate at its current tier, anything below T10 AA is outright laughable. T8 ships cannot even defend themselves from T4 planes as Ark Royal proves.

[Sunleader]

Actually.

Torpedo Damage mostly Ends up being the same as Citadel Damage.

I dont know the Exact Mechanics behind it. As it could either be due to Torpedoes Splashing onto the Citadel and thus being Counted as Citadel Damage (They also Splash Turrets etc after all) or if Torpedo Damage is counted the same as Citadel Damage by Default.

 

But the Fact is. That Torpedo Damage is in Generally barely Repairable. So this Option of Mitigating Damage thanks to Healing doesnt work against Torpedo Damage in the First Place.

 

This is also why Torpedo Bombers are an Incredible Effective Weapon against Tier 10 BBs. Because even tough Aircraft Torpedoes arent as Powerful as the ones Fired by DDs. The 10-15k Damage they Do. Are Sticking on Target and wont be Healed by any Significant amount.

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

12 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

T4 CVs were very boring and a bit powerless feeling in the beginning of the rework and the playerbase cried for a buff.

 

Not "the playerbase"...

It should be "a certain part of the playerbase - aka wannabe sealclubbers - cried for a buff"

I, for sure, never asked for a buff for T4 CVs...

The only buff I always ask for is a spotter plane for my Krispy Kreme... ^^

 

Apart from that detail, you're absolutely right though. WG did produce a giant f*ck-up with that T4 CV buffing.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

6 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Apart from that detail, you're absolutely right though. WG did produce a giant f*ck-up with that T4 CV buffing.

Its funny right? I also didnt know the playerbase was responsible for creating a stupidly broken tier IV carrier. Guess we were also the creators of lackbuster AA at that tier. /s