General CV related discussions.

[Figment]

15 hours ago, Seedling said:

The only ship class that is immune from any damage are subs.

I disagree, subs take a good whooping in comparison tbh and can die very quickly at the hands of competent players and can be rendered completely ineffective by again, competent players. It's very regular I kill subs and deny them doing any damage, but it's a lot harder to reach TX CV's and virtually impossible to avoid taking signficant damage from a T* attack.

 

Up to T8 I don't really have many problems taken CV's out regardless of unit I'm playing, but the TX and T* simply deal too much damage, which in combination with the lack of attrition and the general punishment for showing offensive initiative at TX (protection and time granted by the CVs allies) results in a very one directional state of play. When there's also a skill gap between the two players bringing these units, the resulting impact on the game's outcome is too significant to ignore.

15 hours ago, Seedling said:

The fact that you don't understand cv gameplay is the problem, not the cvs themselves, and given the non-stop wailing of the anti-cv crowd shows that there is no hope for a remedy for them.

CVs don't need to be a problem, if they're properly balanced in damage output and constraint in terms of reach and capabilities. Unfortunately, WG does not seem to appreciate this for whatever reason and this only results in more calls to remove the class itself.

[FukushuNL]

1 hour ago, Figment said:

I disagree, subs take a good whooping in comparison tbh and can die very quickly at the hands of competent players and can be rendered completely ineffective by again, competent players. It's very regular I kill subs and deny them doing any damage, but it's a lot harder to reach TX CV's and virtually impossible to avoid taking signficant damage from a T* attack.

 

Up to T8 I don't really have many problems taken CV's out regardless of unit I'm playing, but the TX and T* simply deal too much damage, which in combination with the lack of attrition and the general punishment for showing offensive initiative at TX (protection and time granted by the CVs allies) results in a very one directional state of play. When there's also a skill gap between the two players bringing these units, the resulting impact on the game's outcome is too significant to ignore.

CVs don't need to be a problem, if they're properly balanced in damage output and constraint in terms of reach and capabilities. Unfortunately, WG does not seem to appreciate this for whatever reason and this only results in more calls to remove the class itself.

You are forgetting the strongest point of a CV, the indirect dmg they do, simply by spotting. That is imo the worst thing about a CV. They can map out the opposing team in less then a minute and can permaspot enemy ships for their own teammembers to nuke into oblivion. The enemy teammembers don't even have to show themselves and thus can fire from impunity. 

 

People always compare what a CV can do dmg wise vs other ships, but that is far from the strongest aspect of a CV. What a CV can do for his team is way more OP.

[Figment]

18 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

You are forgetting the strongest point of a CV, the indirect dmg they do, simply by spotting.

I did mention that two posts back regarding not being able to go dark in Thunderer. ;) For some ships being just 12km out is enough to spot it, which is stupid. Should be closer to edge of AA range.

[Nibenay78]

2 hours ago, Figment said:

CVs don't need to be a problem, if they're properly balanced in damage output and constraint in terms of reach and capabilities. Unfortunately, WG does not seem to appreciate this for whatever reason and this only results in more calls to remove the class itself.

Balanced by numbers is only one part of making a game or mechanic fun or interesting. I suspect taking lets say 20k damage in a BB vs BB fight is more acceptable for whatever reasons than being BB vs CV and take 20k...

 

I think we can all guess the reasons to why..

[Figment]

33 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Balanced by numbers is only one part of making a game or mechanic fun or interesting. I suspect taking lets say 20k damage in a BB vs BB fight is more acceptable for whatever reasons than being BB vs CV and take 20k...

 

I think we can all guess the reasons to why..

That and having the option of being out of reach (range limitations). The very least aircraft should have is a limited flight time, where failing to abort the attack in time to make sure there's enough fuel to get back to the CV results in the loss of aircraft.

 

Spotting should be reworked, where only within a limited range from the aircraft (say within 14-18km of the aircraft) you actually get eyes on the target rather than just a map indicator, while detecting should risk aircraft getting to the edge if not within the AA range of the target spotted (AA ranges should be possible to be boosted to +40% of today IMO). Defensive fighter consumeable should be proactive rather than reactive. Reintroducing Ctrl-Click on aircraft should make it possible to target specific squadrons with your fighter for instance. There's so much more that can be done to make it fairer, especially at higher tiers, but yeah. :/

[Nibenay78]

6 minutes ago, Figment said:

That and having the option of being out of reach (range limitations). The very least aircraft should have is a limited flight time, where failing to abort the attack in time to make sure there's enough fuel to get back to the CV results in the loss of aircraft.

 

Spotting should be reworked, where only within a limited range from the aircraft (say within 14-18km of the aircraft) you actually get eyes on the target rather than just a map indicator, while detecting should risk aircraft getting to the edge if not within the AA range of the target spotted (AA ranges should be possible to be boosted to +40% of today IMO). Defensive fighter consumeable should be proactive rather than reactive. Reintroducing Ctrl-Click on aircraft should make it possible to target specific squadrons with your fighter for instance. There's so much more that can be done to make it fairer, especially at higher tiers, but yeah. :/

For all the balancing I dont think it will change much. I'm very much a number guy, I enjoy fiddling with them.. but CVs as they are now, it's just not enough to fiddle with numbers. It's about enjoyment, immersion, expectations, verisimilitude. At least for me. As it is now, my only wish is to either nerf CVs damage to 0 and spotting to 0 or nerf plane hp to 0. Either way they will be irrelevant and pointless for the game.

 

We've done this exercise before after all..

[Juuzaam]

Vor 10 Stunden, FukushuNL sagte:

You are forgetting the strongest point of a CV, the indirect dmg they do, simply by spotting. That is imo the worst thing about a CV. They can map out the opposing team in less then a minute and can permaspot enemy ships for their own teammembers to nuke into oblivion. The enemy teammembers don't even have to show themselves and thus can fire from impunity. 

 

There is a lot wrong about this. First Carrier players got a term for scouting the enemy team, we literally call it scouting run. Which is the recommended first thing players could do. At the begin of the match you fly around, check where everyone is going and give away where radars, overmatch etc are for your team. This is not done in less than a minute it usually takes more than 90s. Noticeable is that these scouting runs take more time than an attack flight. You also end on the other side of the map for the suicide run, so you dont position an enemy or drain a consumable for further attacks. This means, scouting runs are the most time consuming thing, with the lowest gain for the CV player. Carrier players that prefer winning by damage, often save the time of scouting and start farming directly, this obvious depends on the carrier as well. Like you dont scout the enemy team with a FDR if you catch a pinata early in random match. Zeppelins on Sea tend to early torp drop. The by far strongest Indomitable player in EU usually farms directly as well. So before you claim that CVs always scout everything in less than 60s, get some knowledge please.

 

While i agree that spotting is a problem and should be nerfed (remove fighter spotting), i dont think it impacts everyone the same. The majority of the playerbase is below 50%  WR. This also includes carrier players, means the chunky majority of CV players doesnt spot in any active way either. These dont light up russian bricks on their way to their positions or drop fighters that act as spotters to catch island guys or so..

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

8 hours ago, Juuzaam said:

 

There is a lot wrong about this. First Carrier players got a term for scouting the enemy team, we literally call it scouting run. Which is the recommended first thing players could do. At the begin of the match you fly around, check where everyone is going and give away where radars, overmatch etc are for your team. This is not done in less than a minute it usually takes more than 90s. Noticeable is that these scouting runs take more time than an attack flight. You also end on the other side of the map for the suicide run, so you dont position an enemy or drain a consumable for further attacks. This means, scouting runs are the most time consuming thing, with the lowest gain for the CV player. Carrier players that prefer winning by damage, often save the time of scouting and start farming directly, this obvious depends on the carrier as well. Like you dont scout the enemy team with a FDR if you catch a pinata early in random match. Zeppelins on Sea tend to early torp drop. The by far strongest Indomitable player in EU usually farms directly as well. So before you claim that CVs always scout everything in less than 60s, get some knowledge please.

 

While i agree that spotting is a problem and should be nerfed (remove fighter spotting), i dont think it impacts everyone the same. The majority of the playerbase is below 50%  WR. This also includes carrier players, means the chunky majority of CV players doesnt spot in any active way either. These dont light up russian bricks on their way to their positions or drop fighters that act as spotters to catch island guys or so..

 

I also don't understand where this spotting nonsense comes from. 

If I tried spotting the enemy for my 48% teammates they would still not shoot it rather they get scared from all the red they see and run.

It's much more important to kill what you spot so your own team feels comfortable to push. The guys in this topic who make all these claims don't have any real CV experience too believing whatever their flamu overlord rants about instead most of the time. Not even El2a commits to spotting in any of his numerous videos he uploads because if he would he wouldn't break 3k PR in any CV. 

[Nov_A]

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

9 hours ago, Juuzaam said:

 

There is a lot wrong about this. First Carrier players got a term for scouting the enemy team, we literally call it scouting run. Which is the recommended first thing players could do. At the begin of the match you fly around, check where everyone is going and give away where radars, overmatch etc are for your team. This is not done in less than a minute it usually takes more than 90s. Noticeable is that these scouting runs take more time than an attack flight. You also end on the other side of the map for the suicide run, so you dont position an enemy or drain a consumable for further attacks. This means, scouting runs are the most time consuming thing, with the lowest gain for the CV player. Carrier players that prefer winning by damage, often save the time of scouting and start farming directly, this obvious depends on the carrier as well. Like you dont scout the enemy team with a FDR if you catch a pinata early in random match. Zeppelins on Sea tend to early torp drop. The by far strongest Indomitable player in EU usually farms directly as well. So before you claim that CVs always scout everything in less than 60s, get some knowledge please.

 

While i agree that spotting is a problem and should be nerfed (remove fighter spotting), i dont think it impacts everyone the same. The majority of the playerbase is below 50%  WR. This also includes carrier players, means the chunky majority of CV players doesnt spot in any active way either. These dont light up russian bricks on their way to their positions or drop fighters that act as spotters to catch island guys or so..

 

Mapping the entire enemy team at round start in randoms is a waste of damage race time in most cases. Its not the deliberate spotting that is too big of an influence, its the involuntary automatic spotting that comes with flying around to targets at 150 - 180 knots disregarding visual cover in all random directions that makes even most horrible bad carrier players have too much of an influence on gameplay experience.

[FukushuNL]

2 hours ago, L0VE_and_PE4CE said:

I also don't understand where this spotting nonsense comes from. 

If I tried spotting the enemy for my 48% teammates they would still not shoot it rather they get scared from all the red they see and run.

It's much more important to kill what you spot so your own team feels comfortable to push. The guys in this topic who make all these claims don't have any real CV experience too believing whatever their flamu overlord rants about instead most of the time. Not even El2a commits to spotting in any of his numerous videos he uploads because if he would he wouldn't break 3k PR in any CV. 

And @Juuzaam I don't care that a spotting run is called a spotting run, and it takes slightly more than a minute. It's the capability of a CV to be able to spot everything on the map in record time.

 

@L0VE_and_PE4CE It is also not an issue whether or not the people in your team react to your spotting. Again, it is the capability of the CV to be able to spot where and when it can. You keep on pointing out that the CV's personal dmg is so important and WG also seemingly think that it's the only important thing, but getting deleted by the whole of the enemy team because of CV spotting is by far worse than having a one on one with a CV.

 

But if you also don't care about CV spotting, you wouldn't mind CV spotting capabilities taken out of the game? I mean, it would not take away from CV personal dmg and spotting xp is not that much anyways, so that could be incorporated in other ways.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

5 minutes ago, FukushuNL said:

And @Juuzaam I don't care that a spotting run is called a spotting run, and it takes slightly more than a minute. It's the capability of a CV to be able to spot everything on the map in record time.

 

@L0VE_and_PE4CE It is also not an issue whether or not the people in your team react to your spotting. Again, it is the capability of the CV to be able to spot where and when it can. You keep on pointing out that the CV's personal dmg is so important and WG also seemingly think that it's the only important thing, but getting deleted by the whole of the enemy team because of CV spotting is by far worse than having a one on one with a CV.

 

But if you also don't care about CV spotting, you wouldn't mind CV spotting capabilities taken out of the game? I mean, it would not take away from CV personal dmg and spotting xp is not that much anyways, so that could be incorporated in other ways.

you are spot on. I wouldn't mind it being taken away. The issues won't disappear. Maybe very niche cases of pepega cruiser players getting deleted by not being prepared to be spotted by the CVs.

[Juuzaam]

Vor 30 Minuten, FukushuNL sagte:

But if you also don't care about CV spotting, you wouldn't mind CV spotting capabilities taken out of the game?

I would have liked to see a systematical approach. By limiting Carrier influence step by step, first in my book would have been to remove fighter spotting. Instead Weegee in its almighty genius mind decided to delay the rockets of attack planes. Now the omni sheet tells CVs dont kill DDs as often anymore and everyone is happy and even celebrated that change. With whoem the limited spotting iwas looking for became unlikely, because spreadsheet says game is [edited]fine, which the stupid playerbase refuses to acknowledge.

[AndyHill]

This is the top 15 in spotting damage at T10 during the last 28 days on the EU server, guess which ones are carriers:

 

Same for spotting ribbons:

 

This is basically a rough measure of information influence these ships have. Note that the numbers for non-carriers in the latter table are inflated, since they get to play some carrier-free games whereas games without DDs are pretty rare.

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, Europizza said:

Mapping the entire enemy team at round start in randoms is a waste of damage race time in most cases. Its not the deliberate spotting that is too big of an influence, its the involuntary automatic spotting that comes with flying around to targets at 150 - 180 knots disregarding visual cover in all random directions that makes even most horrible bad carrier players have too much of an influence on gameplay experience.

 

You also need to think about the indirect spotting effects, even if CV aren't directly spotting targets, the fact that they can means that players avoid situations where they could be spotted, and ensure that they have escape routes if CV do spot them, all of which boils down to static boring gameplay.

[Seedling]

3 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

You also need to think about the indirect spotting effects, even if CV aren't directly spotting targets, the fact that they can means that players avoid situations where they could be spotted, and ensure that they have escape routes if CV do spot them, all of which boils down to static boring gameplay.

So because CVs upset the static boring gameplay meta and force players to think about how to play the game in new ways... makes for static boring gameplay?

You also need to think about the indirect spotting effects, even if DD aren't directly spotting targets, the fact that they can means that players avoid situations where they could be spotted, and ensure that they have escape routes if DD do spot them, all of which boils down to static boring gameplay.

Sounds familiar?
 

Other ship classes can fire into a fleet of ships, pick which target they like, and remain unspotted the whole way. Their shells do not get shot out of the sky, their torpedos sail until they hit something or run out of time. Planes however get shot down, and the tighter the blob, the less planes survive... and each plane is on a 1-2 minute cooldown. Lose too many planes early on, and cv is nigh useless, OTHER then spotting.

 

[shashinero13]

I have Audacious and I bought Eagle and i'm ready to take Cunningham but I read in the devblog that they will nerf his flooding instances from 2 to 4 for the speed buff. Do you guys think the special commander is still worth the coal after the nerf? 

[Seedling]

4 hours ago, AndyHill said:

This is the top 15 in spotting damage at T10 during the last 28 days on the EU server, guess which ones are carriers:

 

Same for spotting ribbons:

 

This is basically a rough measure of information influence these ships have. Note that the numbers for non-carriers in the latter table are inflated, since they get to play some carrier-free games whereas games without DDs are pretty rare.

Cutting out all relevant information makes this nothing more then a list of numbers that can mean anything... but lets assume it does whatever you claim it to be.
So we established that cvs have an edge when it comes to spotting and spotting damage. Now run the numbers for capping medals and capping score. Are CVs the best in those categories? Or what about main and secondary hits?

[AkulaTSR]

The initial spotting run also bugs me , sometimes your attacked , and if your in a DD , you could lose half your health in the first two mins of a battle , not all DDs can smoke up.

Add to the fact the CV can just keep attacking you with wave after wave of planes , alternating between torps and those daft rocket things, They should be able to attack you a couple times then not be able to detect you for a few mins.

 

Also no matter how good your AA is , the enemy CV still gets a shot off at you.

 

 

 

 

[Seedling]

9 minutes ago, AkulaTSR said:

The initial spotting run also bugs me , sometimes your attacked , and if your in a DD , you could lose half your health in the first two mins of a battle , not all DDs can smoke up.

Add to the fact the CV can just keep attacking you with wave after wave of planes , alternating between torps and those daft rocket things, They should be able to attack you a couple times then not be able to detect you for a few mins.

 

Also no matter how good your AA is , the enemy CV still gets a shot off at you.

A dd can take a cap from 0 to 100 in the time it takes for a cv to get another wave of planes on you. And you are in smoke the whole time. Shooting and firing with pinpoint accuracy even though you are effectively blind... heck, a destroyer in smoke doesn't even give away it's position with AA, despite using tracers...
Also, those daft rocket things are surprisingly historical. There's actually more footage of rocket attacks then of most ships.

And no matter how good your dodging is, the enemy DD still gets to launch all his torps at you.

[AkulaTSR]

1 hour ago, Seedling said:

A dd can take a cap from 0 to 100 in the time it takes for a cv to get another wave of planes on you. And you are in smoke the whole time. Shooting and firing with pinpoint accuracy even though you are effectively blind... heck, a destroyer in smoke doesn't even give away it's position with AA, despite using tracers...
Also, those daft rocket things are surprisingly historical. There's actually more footage of rocket attacks then of most ships.

And no matter how good your dodging is, the enemy DD still gets to launch all his torps at you.

Nonsense , as mentioned not all DDs have smoke , some even have short smoke.

 

And the planes are not all destroyed with DD AA , so he can sometimes get as many as 3 runs with the same squadron , its utter garbage

[Bear__Necessities]

3 hours ago, Seedling said:

Lose too many planes early on, and cv is nigh useless,

Only if a CV player is a potato will they lose their planes. And even "if" they lose their planes if they live they don't cost the team the points they lose by getting killed as they are not front line targets. And even then potato players have an increased Influence in CV compared to when they play other classes. 

 

Stop defending a broken class that has struggles to fit Into the game since it pretty much started. 

 

2 hours ago, Seedling said:

A dd can take a cap from 0 to 100 in the time it takes for a cv to get another wave of planes on you

Stop lying. 

[JohnMac79]

3 hours ago, Seedling said:

So because CVs upset the static boring gameplay meta...

This is complete and utter nonsense.

 

2 hours ago, Seedling said:

A dd can take a cap from 0 to 100 in the time it takes for a cv to get another wave of planes on you.

More complete and utter nonsense.

 

2 hours ago, Seedling said:

Also, those daft rocket things are surprisingly historical.

 

[AndyHill]

3 hours ago, Seedling said:

So we established that cvs have an edge when it comes to spotting and spotting damage. Now run the numbers for capping medals and capping score. Are CVs the best in those categories? Or what about main and secondary hits?

Here is the bottom 15 sorted by cap points:

 

However, the story changes somewhat when we list the top 15 for cap defense:

 

AFAIK proships.ru doesn't list main and secondary battery hits. When it comes to total damage, carriers are kind of second best between BBs and cruisers.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

11 hours ago, FukushuNL said:

But if you also don't care about CV spotting, you wouldn't mind CV spotting capabilities taken out of the game?

He is asking for it to be removed. So are many other CV players. 

Also, the automatic crap, CV  players usually want that removed as well.

Spotting for the whole team while attacking a target was also asked to be removed...

Even CV players think it is no fun at all. They agree it is crap. 

What is not clear about that? 

 

11 hours ago, Juuzaam said:

Instead Weegee in its almighty genius mind decided to delay the rockets of attack planes.

 Yes, ask and thou shalt receive. 

However it is usually not received what is asked for...