General CV related discussions.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

The Hosho problem is created by the community. 

T4 CVs were very boring and a bit powerless feeling in the beginning of the rework and the playerbase cried for a buff. 

 

They got the buff and now t4CVs are a mess because WG granted that wish. 

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

The Hosho problem is created by the community. 

T4 CVs were very boring and a bit powerless feeling in the beginning of the rework and the playerbase cried for a buff. 

 

They got the buff and now t4CVs are a mess because WG granted that wish. 

 

Agree, T4 CVs should‘ve stayed as they were with the single Torp drop 

[OVanBruce]

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

What preparations?

changing angle inside the smoke from the probable angle or aproach so they face the attack from the bow or stern greatly reducing the chances or hit. Also, using terrain smartly enough to make a very obvious angle of attack so you know how will the planes aproach. torp bombers don't let you know the angle of a ship in smoke at almost any moment due to how they attack so a ship in the smoke can fool you easily. A player that pretends to sit in the smoke all the time should allways try to know what planes the opponent CV has in the air at any given moment and that can be easy, just check the minimap regularly and you'll spot the opponent planes.

 

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Overlapping AA is overrated. All that happens is the FLAK gets multiplied. And FLAK is 99% avoidable. 

I suppose you know that, too, since you play CVs.

Overlapping AA auras can be the difference bettwen spending 9 planes or 6 planes on a single attack and given the low plane regen of tier X CVs that might be enough to discourage you from attempting an attack given that more than one of such might be losing your reserves quite rapidly. It's made worse when you commit to an attack and suddenly find out that the ship you wanted to strike had hidden Halland or Smaland out of view so your attack will probably fail if you predropped counting on an smaller AA aura damage or, if you didn't predrop, you'll take a hit on your reserves that wasn't worth it for the attack you started. About FLAK, it can be quite annoying if there is a third ship putting FLAK bubbles over the target you want to strike

 

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

They also do less damage. Have slower planes. I'd say you know how it is done, your stats are higher than mine.

tier VIII CVs are more accurate tho, specially the premiums so an attack will deliver good damage even if you lose all your planes, compared to tier X accuracy. Case on point I often compare the accuracy of dive bomb drops on Saipan/Lexington to Midway because I've honed my skills in dropping DDs with the HE bombs and altho Midway releases 6 bombs per drop of the highest damage with the most planes per squad my average number of hits after dropping the full squad is appaling compared to the tier VIII CVs. It's specially when I compare Saipan and Midway because they got the same dive bombers, the same bombs, Saipan has less bombs per attack yet Saipan is much more reliable when dropping DDs than Midway. I guess no one has taken a look at it because nobody cares about CVs but I personally believe that Midway's "sigma" on the bombs is nerfed to Lexington's and Saipan's "sigma".

 

22 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Why are you whining for tier 10? I find that easier than others. Main thing: you never get uptiered.

I ain't whining, I'm mainly putting into perspective the differences bettwen tier VIII CVs and tier X CVs. Midway vs Lexington is debatable but almost anyone will agree that Shokaku is the best IJN CV.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

The Hosho problem is created by the community. 

T4 CVs were very boring and a bit powerless feeling in the beginning of the rework and the playerbase cried for a buff. 

 

They got the buff and now t4CVs are a mess because WG granted that wish. 

Just limit to 1 CV, nerf toepedo damage, and that should do it. 

BTW I wonder why Hermes didn't get two torpedoes. 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Shokaku is the best IJN CV.

Not only the best IJN CV but probably the best CV next to Enterprise. 

 

 

[steveraptor]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Just limit to 1 CV, nerf toepedo damage, and that should do it. 

BTW I wonder why Hermes didn't get two torpedoes. 

 

This won't do, because then threads like "I wait 4 min in queue, WG fix MM" will start popping out, because there are too many CV players in queue.

You need to fix the "popularity" of T4 CVs first.

[poopooo]

Well, finally I got the shokaku, and at the moment it seems worse to me than the ryujo, it is also necessary to take into account that I faced many levels 9 and 10, but practically my stock planes had no chance, in an attack against A lone destroyer lost the entire platoon before being able to attack him, in another I launched my torpedo boats against an American battleship but suddenly a Cleveland appeared and my torpedo drivers disappeared from the sky without being able to approach.

My first game with the shokaku was summarized in doing 30,000 damage, gained and not losing 30,000 credits for having a premium account.

I do not know, but I think that the carriers are overrated, they detect enemies as a destroyer can do more effectively, and the damage they do is summarized in losing a large number of aircraft in exchange and they do not affect much during the game except for Do some damage so that someone from your team fights with advantage against the one in front of you.

 

 

 

[steveraptor]

4 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Not only the best IJN CV but probably the best CV next to Enterprise. 

 

 

Generally, both Lex and Shokaku are more powerful than their Tier X equivalents, more so when not uptiered.

Midway and Haku feels like a sterilized versions of the previous tiers in respect to their tier.

[OVanBruce]

Just now, poopooo said:

Well, finally I got the shokaku, and at the moment it seems worse to me than the ryujo, it is also necessary to take into account that I faced many levels 9 and 10, but practically my stock planes had no chance, in an attack against A lone destroyer lost the entire platoon before being able to attack him, in another I launched my torpedo boats against an American battleship but suddenly a Cleveland appeared and my torpedo drivers disappeared from the sky without being able to approach.

My first game with the shokaku was summarized in doing 30,000 damage, gained and not losing 30,000 credits for having a premium account.

I do not know, but I think that the carriers are overrated, they detect enemies as a destroyer can do more effectively, and the damage they do is summarized in losing a large number of aircraft in exchange and they do not affect much during the game except for Do some damage so that someone from your team fights with advantage against the one in front of you.

If you got the free XP to spare get Shokaku to elite status ASAP, it's much better. Specially the fighters as she attacks with 3 planes per attack, 9 planes total on the squadron, which is a huge leapt from the meager 2 planes per attack Hosho and Ryuujo have.

[steveraptor]

4 minutes ago, poopooo said:

Well, finally I got the shokaku, and at the moment it seems worse to me than the ryujo, it is also necessary to take into account that I faced many levels 9 and 10, but practically my stock planes had no chance, in an attack against A lone destroyer lost the entire platoon before being able to attack him, in another I launched my torpedo boats against an American battleship but suddenly a Cleveland appeared and my torpedo drivers disappeared from the sky without being able to approach.

My first game with the shokaku was summarized in doing 30,000 damage, gained and not losing 30,000 credits for having a premium account.

I do not know, but I think that the carriers are overrated, they detect enemies as a destroyer can do more effectively, and the damage they do is summarized in losing a large number of aircraft in exchange and they do not affect much during the game except for Do some damage so that someone from your team fights with advantage against the one in front of you.

 

 

 

1) Don't play stock planes on Shokaku, FXP them right away, Shindai-kai rocket planes are the best rocket planes in the game.

2) You don't have a lot of experience in CVs, judging by your stats, no CV will give you "free wins and damage" by just playing it, you need to get better.

 

[Captaindanz]

https://wows-numbers.com/player/570672561,Midway_Need_BUFF/

[Yosha_AtaIante]

7 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

Midway and Haku feels like a sterilized versions

I disagree on midway since the tits and bombs are such a huge improvement over Lexington. 

Midway is the most relaxing CV to play because you don't care about target selection so much. 

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

Put 2 or 3 of those together and watch your planes melt after the first attack.

 

Then don't make a 2nd attack and accel bail.

Though usually even a 2nd attack is possible without putting the slightest strain on your reserves.

 

3 hours ago, Alfa_Tau said:

this is something I can hardly believe.

 

Then you're terrible at playing CVs.

 

11 losses is nothing to any high tier CV. Audacious rocket planes actually have terrible survivability. Shaving only 7k off of a Smaland in multiple attacks is either some seriously bad RNG or, far more likely, incompetent usage of aircraft. Smaland, like Halland, is a fat DD that regularly takes 7-8k damage per attack, with salvos over 10k being well in the realms of possibility. Not to mention that 2-3 salvos will regularly wipe out half or more of her AA mounts, quickly neutering her AA strength of which she has little to begin with.

 

Smolensk has about the same AA DPS as a Zao. Last I checked Zao isn't some kind of AA monster. Even a Shokaku can push 2 DB attacks through on it.

 

Quite a few T8 CVs perform fine in a T10 environment as they're incredibly overtuned. Shokaku and Lexington could easily pass as T9 CVs. The "true" T8 CVs are also the ones considered the weakest of the bunch.

 

2 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

Enterprise is seriously broken tho.

 

Implying I only play Enterprise LOL.

T10 CVs are fine and can perfectly murder anything and everything in a full T10 environment. Even the RN line gets a decent one.

 

In fact it could be said that T10 is the only tier where ships have even remotely adequate levels of AA and it is still way too weak. Current T10 AA should be found at T8.

 

As for supposed counters, there are none to CVs as in the end what you can and cannot do is directly dependent on the skill of the CV player. Your own skill plays only a part if the CV player is incompetent unlike with any other class or inter-class interaction.

 

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

The longer the game lasts the better for the CV.

 

Except CVs have extreme early game impact as well, being able to break a push before it even starts.

Which, you know, should be a given when it is the only class that both spots and can score crippling damage within the first minute of the match.

 

That the Lex was incapable of doing anything despite being top tier highlights the incompetence of the player and neither represents the supposed "power" of a push against a CV nor implies any deficiencies in CV striking power.

In fact that you were able to hunt down a Lex at all, a ship that is faster than you, speaks volumes, just not about anything you said.

 

 

[OVanBruce]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

I disagree on midway since the tits and bombs are such a huge improvement over Lexington. 

Midway is the most relaxing CV to play because you don't care about target selection go much. 

Problem with Midway is that much of its damage can be mitigated. HE dive bombs and fires can be repaired much more easily than Haku's AP dive bomb citadels and hard hitting torps. Your damage feels a lot more inconsequential for the results of the battle

[steveraptor]

12 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

I disagree on midway since the tits and bombs are such a huge improvement over Lexington. 

Midway is the most relaxing CV to play because you don't care about target selection so much. 

Um, on second thought i think this is true in some regard.

 

Regarding midway, I would happily choose lexington 3x, 6400 torps though over Midways 6x 5000, but HE bombs and and TiTs are definitely a direct upgrade.

 

For haku, I think what bothers me the most is how weak its rocket planes are compared to shokaku, all considering its a tier X carrier.

 

But yeah, I think I over-generalized too much.

[steveraptor]

3 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Problem with Midway is that much of its damage can be mitigated. HE dive bombs and fires can be repaired much more easily than Haku's AP dive bomb citadels and hard hitting torps. Your damage feels a lot more inconsequential for the results of the battle

Yes but AP bombs are far more situational than HE bombs, and you can only get those guaranteed citadels on island campers and ships that sail in straight lines.

Midway bombs are more flexible and their alpha is also very impressive when attacking island campers..and ships that sail in straight lines, I think i got an 18k + some fires on some drops.

And how can you forget that midway HE bombs are capable of annihilating DDs. 

Haku has no chance vs Halland and Smaland, Midway is a complete different story. 

Sure, you can repair more of that damage but that's the trade off here and I think its fair.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

changing angle inside the smoke from the probable angle or aproach so they face the attack from the bow or stern greatly reducing the chances or hit. Also, using terrain smartly enough to make a very obvious angle of attack so you know how will the planes aproach. torp bombers don't let you know the angle of a ship in smoke at almost any moment due to how they attack so a ship in the smoke can fool you easily. A player that pretends to sit in the smoke all the time should allways try to know what planes the opponent CV has in the air at any given moment and that can be easy, just check the minimap regularly and you'll spot the opponent planes.

You haven't got Smolly eh? That thing is quite slow... enough speed but agility, well no.

If they use terrain you'll know it else it is the CV players fault. Get them later, then. 

Same if there is IKEA-DD there: you should/could have known. The minimap works for CV-players too. 

 

You do not HAVE TO kill them, as is the thing in Clan Battle. 

If they are too difficult, find some other victim. 

 

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Overlapping AA auras can be the difference bettwen spending 9 planes or 6 planes on a single attack and given the low plane regen of tier X CVs that might be enough to discourage you from attempting an attack given that more than one of such might be losing your reserves quite rapidly.

yes, but that is a CV-player mistake. YOU choose to attack them or not.

 

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

It's made worse when you commit to an attack and suddenly find out that the ship you wanted to strike had hidden Halland or Smaland out of view so your attack will probably fail if you predropped counting on an smaller AA aura damage or, if you didn't predrop, you'll take a hit on your reserves that wasn't worth it for the attack you started. About FLAK, it can be quite annoying if there is a third ship putting FLAK bubbles over the target you want to strike

Minimap dude... minimap... if you expect THEM to keep track of the CV-planes,

then YOU can keep track of where that IKEA-DD likely went...

 

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

tier VIII CVs are more accurate tho, specially the premiums so an attack will deliver good damage even if you lose all your planes, compared to tier X accuracy. Case on point I often compare the accuracy of dive bomb drops on Saipan/Lexington to Midway because I've honed my skills in dropping DDs with the HE bombs and altho Midway releases 6 bombs per drop of the highest damage with the most planes per squad my average number of hits after dropping the full squad is appaling compared to the tier VIII CVs. It's specially when I compare Saipan and Midway because they got the same dive bombers, the same bombs, Saipan has less bombs per attack yet Saipan is much more reliable when dropping DDs than Midway. I guess no one has taken a look at it because nobody cares about CVs but I personally believe that Midway's "sigma" on the bombs is nerfed to Lexington's and Saipan's "sigma".

I think it is more like, I can hit all three torps with Ark Royal - but not all 4 with Kaga. 

So yes it has more torpedoes, but they are useless, sort of. 

There is simply not enough ship to hit, and this is the case with DDs as well. 

 

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

I ain't whining, I'm mainly putting into perspective the differences bettwen tier VIII CVs and tier X CVs. Midway vs Lexington is debatable but almost anyone will agree that Shokaku is the best IJN CV.

Which CV is best, depends on playstyle and what teams you get. 

Granted the IJN (AP-bombs, so hello Enterprise) Cvs are much more influential on winrate. 

Some CVs you can't carry matches in unless you are really really good, or lucky. 

Also consider this: 

 

9 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

Generally, both Lex and Shokaku are more powerful than their Tier X equivalents, more so when not uptiered.

Midway and Haku feels like a sterilized versions of the previous tiers in respect to their tier.

Yes and that's natural, because they never will get uptiered. 

T8 CVs can get +2, and they still need to be able to do something there. 

T10 CVs do not. So they do NOT need to be stronger than T10. 

@OVanBruce this is why - but T10 Cvs are definitely a bit stronger than T8. But NOT like T6--> T8 --> T10.

That last "gap" is much smaller. Uhhh... and well, a side note: I would not compare Midway to Enterprise though as that might be even stronger.

 

3 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Problem with Midway is that much of its damage can be mitigated. HE dive bombs and fires can be repaired much more easily than Haku's AP dive bomb citadels and hard hitting torps. Your damage feels a lot more inconsequential for the results of the battle

 

That is true, but it is the same with all other DoT CVs. Or all IJN Cvs, depending what you prefer.

I grinded Shokaku "real quick" because wanted Haku (for CB), so once spaded I didn't play it much.

I'm sure once I go for it it will outperform Ryujo in WR.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Yees Haku rockets are disgustingly weak compared to Shoukaku. 

The Haku stock rockets before they sadly got nerfed however were the same as Shoukaku maneuverability and aiming/dispersion so any Haku player who knew his stuff used them. 

I believe it's partly my fault however that the stock rockets got nerfed since it happened right after I mentioned this issue in the forum. 

 

The torps on Midway are still usable as a filler and can be devastating to reversing or mostly stationary targets. I can't talk about Lexington torps to much however (should be the same as enterprise) 

1 minute ago, steveraptor said:

AP bombs are far more situational than HE bombs

Exactly and even so the HE bombers that deal up to 40k alpha to your chosen BB target with 2 permafires on top are heal able for sure but it will cost the victim 2 consumables at least, forces it to disengage and to not re-engage until the victim is healed up effectively removing it from having battle Influence.

A quick followup strike with tits on top of this and the victim might be outright killed. 

[OVanBruce]

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Then don't make a 2nd attack and accel bail.

Though usually even a 2nd attack is possible without putting the slightest strain on your reserves.

You know that not even halve of the times "accel and bail" is possible or is as harmless and easy as you say it. "usually even a second attack is possible without the slightest strain on your reserves", yeah, no losing your whole torp squad for a couple of attacks on Haku leaves you crippled for the rest of the match, same with any of the other type of planes

 

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Implying I only play Enterprise LOL.

T10 CVs are fine and can perfectly murder anything and everything in a full T10 environment. Even the RN line gets a decent one.

I put into doubt your definition of murder, as delivering damage to tier X ships is way less consequential given how many tools they got to mitigate damage and you seem to be completely ignoring any RNG element on bombs.

 

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In fact it could be said that T10 is the only tier where ships have even remotely adequate levels of AA and it is still way too weak. Current T10 AA should be found at T8.

You are just bragging at this point.

 

[poopooo]

23 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

1) Don't play stock planes on Shokaku, FXP them right away, Shindai-kai rocket planes are the best rocket planes in the game.

2) You don't have a lot of experience in CVs, judging by your stats, no CV will give you "free wins and damage" by just playing it, you need to get better. 

 

1) Do you want to tell me that switching from one aircraft to another is the key to CVs?
2) It is true that I have not played much aircraft carriers with this new mode, but it is not difficult to see that as long as there is more than one ship less than 5km from which you are directly attacking, your aircraft only manage to launch an attack before being shot down.

With the ryujo I have a damage per game of around 50,000, which seems sufficient to me, in some game I have made 100,000 but it was simply because in the game there were only battleships and they were also very separated from each other and they could be attacked without losing many planes.
If you have the key to attack ships without losing planes, can you please say so?

 

Regarding free wins and damage, I don't want them to give me too many credits, but I do want them to give me credits in relation to what you can do in the game, if the game only allows me to do 30,000 because I can't even attack a lone destroyer, as he should at least be able to pay for the repair.

 

[OVanBruce]

9 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Stuff

The point ain't "Oh I lost all my planes, damm it" it's "I can't afford to do this attack even though I know I need to do it to turn around the match yet at the same time the probability of it being succesful isn't great too". Minimap ain't the holy grail, I could be watching at a last known position from 5 minutes ago and said DD could already be at the other side of the map.

[steveraptor]

7 minutes ago, poopooo said:

1) Do you want to tell me that switching from one aircraft to another is the key to CVs?
2) It is true that I have not played much aircraft carriers with this new mode, but it is not difficult to see that as long as there is more than one ship less than 5km from which you are directly attacking, your aircraft only manage to launch an attack before being shot down.

With the ryujo I have a damage per game of around 50,000, which seems sufficient to me, in some game I have made 100,000 but it was simply because in the game there were only battleships and they were also very separated from each other and they could be attacked without losing many planes.
If you have the key to attack ships without losing planes, can you please say so?

 

1) Yes, in some regards its crucial.

 

2) Damage and PR means nothing, a CV is the easiest ship in the game to farm damage, its also the only ship in the game that gets to choose who to attack and eliminate first in most cases. You can do 200k damage to a useless battleship in the back and lose the game regardless, or, you can do 50k in a game, which included eliminating all enemy DDs from the game and securing a win. Target selection is one of the fundamentals skills you need to master as CV player.

Win Rate in solo games is the only stat that matters, damage and PR should follow it but NOT precede it.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

14 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

You know that not even halve of the times "accel and bail"

It's literally holding W and pressing F during drop animation and that's it. Easiest thing to do and absolutely not situational. 

 

14 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

whole torp squad for a couple of attacks on Haku

You have another full squad on deck and more. Losing 12torp planes is not an issue as all of them if you lose them early enough will be back after 10minutes of game time. 

 

14 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

RNG element on bombs.

 

You can counter RNG once you understand the drop patterns of the corresponding CVs. 

 

14 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

You are just bragging at this point

But he is right. And he is not the only one who is this confident in his abilities. 

Ontop of that he is since the beginning of the rework making the same repeated points over and over so I guess he is tired of trying to be humble about it. 

 

 

[poopooo]

2 minutes ago, steveraptor said:

 

1) Yes, in some regards in crucial.

 

2) Damage and PR means nothing, a CV is the easiest ship in the game to farm damage, its also the only ship in the game that gets to choose who to attack and eliminate first in most cases. You can do 200k damage to a useless battleship in the back and lose the game regardless, or, you can do 50k in a game, which included eliminating all enemy DDs from the game and securing a win. Target selection is one of the fundamentals skills you need to master as CV player.

Win Rate in solo games is the only stat that matters, damage and PR should follow it but NOT precede it. 

They farm damage if they can attack.
On the other hand, I do not understand that about being able to attack whoever you want with the CV, I think it is more being able to attack whoever you can, for example with the shokaku I do not see that I can attack a cleveland or another ship with a lot of AA, also I do not think who can attack when two or three ships go together, a battleship, cruiser (to a lesser extent) or destroyer can attack whoever they want since their shots are not going to be shot down before hitting.

 

[OVanBruce]

3 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It's literally holding W and pressing F during drop animation and that's it. Easiest thing to do and absolutely not situational.

Inmediatly pressing F just after a drop put you at the strongest point of AA ship and the overlapping AA auras so I very much doubt that is what El2azer was saying. Instead what he probably meant was rushing out of the strong AA zone after the drop and then press F with the problem being that lots of times the angle of attack against a ship might mean that you cannot get our of any strong AA zone before pressing F.

 

7 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

You have another full squad on deck and more. Losing 12torp planes is not an issue as all of them if you lose them early enough will be back after 10minutes of game time.

You seem to have missread my comment as I said losing two full squads, that's 24 torp planes. Maybe I should have specified I meant losing both squads in a very short amount of time.

 

9 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

You can counter RNG once you understand the drop patterns of the corresponding CVs. 

 

 

 

Interesting info but RNG is still RNG as much as you reduce it.

 

13 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

But he is right. And he is not the only one who is this confident in his abilities. 

Ontop of that he is since the beginning of the rework making the same repeated points over and over so I guess he is tiredof trying to be humble about it.

Since when bragging about stuff makes you right? I could bring my stats too and be smug about it, it adds nothing to the debate. Besides, the AA change is what has brought this current situation, or at least, it has excacerbated it.