General CV related discussions.

[redraven]

5 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And unfortunately it seems that at least for now Wargaming is Ready to Sacrifice Balancing in Favor of Attracting more Players to CVs.

Which is a terrible decision if you ask me. Sure its gonna result in higher number of players in the short term but when long term players start to leave en-mass because they can no longer even pretend to enjoy the game its gonna kill wows.

And in all fairness WG would be better off just biting bullet and getting rid of the CVs alltogether untill they can implement them in a meaningfull and balanced way. I mean thats why i hate the graph thats posted above. It shows precentages. Percentages mean [edited]-all. You can wipe your arse with them.  (for example: 10 played cv before the rework. After the rewrok 15 people play them. Thats a whopping 50% increase. And thats what they Will show you. What they wont show you is that this huge PERCENTAGE increase is an absolutzely negligable amount of actual players) So even if we go by the worst outcome and say everyone who plays/ed cvs just straight up ditches the game it wouldnt mean mutch. 

As a related story. This is why i loved AW when obsidian was developing it. SPGs was all kinds of fucked up and they just straight up removed the entire damn class untill they reworked them because literally everyone (exept the bastards abusing them) hated them.

[Sunleader]

46 minutes ago, redraven said:

Which is a terrible decision if you ask me. Sure its gonna result in higher number of players in the short term but when long term players start to leave en-mass because they can no longer even pretend to enjoy the game its gonna kill wows.

And in all fairness WG would be better off just biting bullet and getting rid of the CVs alltogether untill they can implement them in a meaningfull and balanced way. I mean thats why i hate the graph thats posted above. It shows precentages. Percentages mean [edited]-all. You can wipe your arse with them.  (for example: 10 played cv before the rework. After the rewrok 15 people play them. Thats a whopping 50% increase. And thats what they Will show you. What they wont show you is that this huge PERCENTAGE increase is an absolutzely negligable amount of actual players) So even if we go by the worst outcome and say everyone who plays/ed cvs just straight up ditches the game it wouldnt mean mutch. 

As a related story. This is why i loved AW when obsidian was developing it. SPGs was all kinds of fucked up and they just straight up removed the entire damn class untill they reworked them because literally everyone (exept the bastards abusing them) hated them.

 

I agree that it is a Horrible Idea. However I disagree that getting Rid of CVs would Fix anything.

In fact getting Rid of CVs at this Point is pretty much Impossible. Reinbursement, Community Backlash and massive Rebalancing are an Unsourmountable Challenge that would take several Months to Cover.

And despite taking up Months of Effort would likely still result in massive Losses.

 

While CV Players are much more Rare than other Classes even now. The Fact is that quite alot of us do have CVs. And Play them.

AW is a Bad Example in this Regard. Because of something that you yourself Explained.

 

For AW losing 5% of their Playerbase was not a Problem. Because 5% of such a Tiny Number was not Relevant at this Point anyways.

For WG these few % of CV Players still Represent over 10.000 People. Likely way more if you count People that Own CVs but dont Play them on a Regular Basis.

 

 

So this kind of Idea is a Non Starter.

CVs will need to be Fixed somehow and Implemented Properly.

If this Leads to them being a Rarely Played Class again then this is Fine. Because then only the 1000-2000 Players that are Focused on CVs will Complain. But Removing them will Inflate that Number to way over 10000 People.

[OVanBruce]

2 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Stuff 

 

>CV

Try playing tier X CVs and you'll see what is AA hell with each match having Smolensks, Des Moines, Minotaurs and now Halland and Smaland too. Your bad experiences against CVs probably come from tier VIII CVs blapping tier VI ships but that is a problem of the MM, not the ships themselves.

 

>HE spammers

Sure mate, let's take away HE spam but in exchange let's ditch the overmatch mechanic too, how does that sound?

[CptBarney]

38 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

I agree that it is a Horrible Idea. However I disagree that getting Rid of CVs would Fix anything.

In fact getting Rid of CVs at this Point is pretty much Impossible. Reinbursement, Community Backlash and massive Rebalancing are an Unsourmountable Challenge that would take several Months to Cover.

And despite taking up Months of Effort would likely still result in massive Losses.

 

While CV Players are much more Rare than other Classes even now. The Fact is that quite alot of us do have CVs. And Play them.

AW is a Bad Example in this Regard. Because of something that you yourself Explained.

 

For AW losing 5% of their Playerbase was not a Problem. Because 5% of such a Tiny Number was not Relevant at this Point anyways.

For WG these few % of CV Players still Represent over 10.000 People. Likely way more if you count People that Own CVs but dont Play them on a Regular Basis.

 

 

So this kind of Idea is a Non Starter.

CVs will need to be Fixed somehow and Implemented Properly.

If this Leads to them being a Rarely Played Class again then this is Fine. Because then only the 1000-2000 Players that are Focused on CVs will Complain. But Removing them will Inflate that Number to way over 10000 People.

AW lost almost the entire NA community and the vast majority of the EU community (it was so bad you could barely get pve games on the NA server and PVP was almost completely if not entirely dead on the EU server).

They merged the server now you can't even talk to anyone because vast majority speak and write cryllic.

 

Just a shame my.shite wasted such a golden opportunity to make a unique game that bridged the gap between WoT's and WT:GF. But they wanted a WOT clone and even managed to ruin that.

Hell even their prems have to be nerfed because they are mental, always nice to have some buggy screeching around the corner deleting your tank in less than 7 secs or the tier 10 CATTB (nerfed 4 tmes) deleteing you in 2-3 shots in your T-90ms, with stupid amounts of frontal hull armour. Or the sodding Object door stopper that takes 50-75% of your hp (depending on the tier and type your vehicle is).

 

weegee isn't as bad as my.com at balancing, but they are going down the right direction.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Try playing tier X CVs and you'll see what is AA hell with each match having Smolensks, Des Moines, Minotaurs and now Halland and Smaland too.

 

[Nibenay78]

5 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

>CV

Try playing tier X CVs and you'll see what is AA hell with each match having Smolensks, Des Moines, Minotaurs and now Halland and Smaland too. Your bad experiences against CVs probably come from tier VIII CVs blapping tier VI ships but that is a problem of the MM, not the ships themselves.

I've played tier X CV and my experiences are:

 

1) like most other CVs, they are boring as hell to play and doesn't really make me want to play them. Still struggling to get past tier 8 with the British.

2) I suck at them, but even with my crap play, I've had people rage at me, not bad!

 

playing against tier X (in tier)

 

1) I play a lot of minotaur and against a decent CV, you still get shat on and grinded down. The attacks still come through and eat you. In Mino being spotted is also a guarantee everything and everyone and their dog will shoot at you.

2) In most other ships, you often can't really defend 

3) warning anecdotal experience: I particularly remember one game we had few ships left and I decided to guard our last BB while playing Minotaur. Despite sitting on top of our BB, the opposing Enterprise grinded him to death.

 

5 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

>HE spammers

Sure mate, let's take away HE spam but in exchange let's ditch the overmatch mechanic too, how does that sound?

You feel HE spam from invisible enemies are equal to overmatch? sure it can be frustrating occationally, but personally i think BBs would be insane if every pen was a regular pen or citadel.

[Nibenay78]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

El2azer, I was going to tag you but figured you'd make a comment on that anyways.

 

 

[OVanBruce]

19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Dude, put some words on your comments if you actually want to post, this ain't 4chan.

[OVanBruce]

14 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

 

You feel HE spam from invisible enemies are equal to overmatch? sure it can be frustrating occationally, but personally i think BBs would be insane if every pen was a regular pen or citadel.

 

 

Both are "skill equalizer" mechanics in two different classes.

[Nibenay78]

Just now, OVanBruce said:

Both are "skill equalizer" mechanics in two different classes.

I'm not sure I see that one, I'd like to hear your reasoning why HE spam and overpens are skill equalizers. But it might be good to no derail this thread as it's about "CV discussion" :D

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

Dude, put some words on your comments if you actually want to post, this ain't 4chan.

 

Smolensk, Des Moines and Smaland have terrible AA.

Minotaur not only suffers quite hard from CV ordinance but also from CV spotting.

Halland can easily be neutered in just a few attacks.

 

There is no AA hell at any tier.

[Lootboxer]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

There is no AA hell at any tier.

It depends on the number of those black puffs that some desperately want to collect Or he thinks that he should be able to farm surface pleb with impunity. 

[OVanBruce]

6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Smolensk, Des Moines and Smaland have terrible AA.

Minotaur not only suffers quite hard from CV ordinance but also from CV spotting.

Halland can easily be neutered in just a few attacks.

 

There is no AA hell at any tier.

Put 2 or 3 of those together and watch your planes melt after the first attack. Individually there isn't that much trouble striking them but lately tier X has multiple of these in a single team. It's very unusual meeting a team without at least 5 of them, that's roughly halve the enemy team and if you want to do strikes on strategically important targets lots of times they are always there, multiple stacking AA auras. Sure I can always go strike the potato Kurfurst or Yamato/Musashi that is on the back doing nothing while a team of said ships absolutely murders my DDs and definetly put the enemy team on the track to winning.

[Alfa_Tau]

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Smolensk, Des Moines and Smaland have terrible AA.

Minotaur not only suffers quite hard from CV ordinance but also from CV spotting.

Halland can easily be neutered in just a few attacks.

 

There is no AA hell at any tier.

this is something I can hardly believe.

 

Let me tell u that above the all mentioned ships the only one I don't have is Smaland there fore I cannot judge her from a player perspective.

What I can tell u is that I just concluded a match where a well below average player in his smaland was able to repel my audacios planes inflicting numerous kills (11) in return for 7 K damage. (that he can partially heal).

Consider I have Cunningham Capt wich has a bonus reduction to damage taken and that Audacios planes are the strongest; If Audi suffers… it means really something need to be tuned. 

 

Smolensk AA bad? well as a owner I don't even run the AA consuimables because is so bad :) and instead prefer the hidro. 

put on top the smoke wich allow to sit inside and S@it on all enemy planes in a confortable radius.. .. 

 

Yes I can deliver damage to a single one but they are never so spaced that their AA dont overlap. 

 

As OVan Bruce  said there are many of these ships at tier X lately and there u can see why players become reluctant to play CV at tier X 

the subsequent truth is Tier VIII Cv get sucked into Tier X battles and it's even worst. 

[Hawker_gb]

4 minutes ago, Alfa_Tau said:

this is something I can hardly believe.

 

Let me tell u that above the all mentioned ships the only one I don't have is Smaland there fore I cannot judge her from a player perspective.

What I can tell u is that I just concluded a match where a well below average player in his smaland was able to repel my audacios planes inflicting numerous kills (11) in return for 7 K damage. (that he can partially heal).

Consider I have Cunningham Capt wich has a bonus reduction to damage taken and that Audacios planes are the strongest; If Audi suffers… it means really something need to be tuned. 

 

Smolensk AA bad? well as a owner I don't even run the AA consuimables because is so bad :) and instead prefer the hidro. 

put on top the smoke wich allow to sit inside and S@it on all enemy planes in a confortable radius.. .. 

 

Yes I can deliver damage to a single one but they are never so spaced that their AA dont overlap. 

 

As OVan Bruce  said there are many of these ships at tier X lately and there u can see why players become reluctant to play CV at tier X 

the subsequent truth is Tier VIII Cv get sucked into Tier X battles and it's even worst. 

Players like El2aZeR dont have ANY problems and murders Minotaurs and Des with ease.

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, Hawker_gb said:

Players like El2aZeR dont have ANY problems and murders Minotaurs and Des with ease.

 

Just as a Minotaur or any other ship in the game easily murders an CV once they show up within range. It all depends on the situation, tactics and so on. And yes - a camping DesMo behind an island is free lunch - as it should be 

 

What we see is that the slow campy meta is beautiful for CVs as it gives them plenty of time to strike. 

[Nibenay78]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Just as a Minotaur or any other ship in the game easily murders an CV once they show up within range. It all depends on the situation, tactics and so on. And yes - a camping DesMo behind an island is free lunch - as it should be 

DDs are the ones that most often manages to get within firing range. Most higher tier CVs has the speed to turn their [edited]on the DD and run (yes there are exceptions), while blowing them to bits. Fire not being a relevant issue while the DDs chips away with HE. 

 

Minotaur is really slow and while it can rain shells at longer range than many DDs, it's also the juiciest target for the enemy team.

 

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

What we see is that the slow campy meta is beautiful for CVs as it gives them plenty of time to strike. 

What is the incentive to try a flanking manouver/rush to a good position/ sneak around an island to blow someone to bits - when you can be spotted at any moment by "a wild Carrier appears" and catch you in the open, only to get cit'ed from left and right?

[OVanBruce]

1 hour ago, Hawker_gb said:

Players like El2aZeR dont have ANY problems and murders Minotaurs and Des with ease.

Enterprise is seriously broken tho. She's my go to ship when I want to have an easy life as a carrier player because all her planes are great, specially the AP dive bombers which are the best in the game by great magnitudes so it's actually easy to get those minos and Des Moines. 

1) 6 bombs per attack so you have fewer chances to whif it

2) Good accuracy 

3) fast reticle aim

4) tanky planes

2) tier VIII MM which even in the case of being uptiered to tier X you are never meeting a full tier X opposing team

 

Seriously, there is no problem with the tier VIII CVs, they are actually the best tier per tier, the problem is that tier X CVs often meet full tier X teams and the AA jump in the meta from tier VIII to tier X is huge and the stuff tier X CVs get doesn't compensate. In fact they are WORSE in some aspects compared to the tier VIII carriers

1) Worse accuracy on the rockets

2) Worse accuracy on the bombs

3) Reticles are worse overall, takes more time to aim, more sensitive to changes in direction

Let's also not forget that the amount of ships with heals on tier X is significantly more so they can mitigate CV damage a lot more so your inpact on the match is also reduced.

 

PD: forgot to mention the plane regeneration in Enterprise is great too so you can throw away planes if you want for that single crucial attack

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

What is the incentive to try a flanking manouver/rush to a good position/ sneak around an island to blow someone to bits - when you can be spotted at any moment by "a wild Carrier appears" and catch you in the open, only to get cit'ed from left and right?

 

Incentive? Move your bloody ships enough forward to kill the enemy CV quickly, capture Cap points and create a Crossfire against the stupid enemy blob at the map border maybe? 

 

And do you honestly trying to indicate people we’re playijg any active before the rework...? 

[Nibenay78]

22 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Incentive? Move your bloody ships enough forward to kill the enemy CV quickly, capture Cap points and create a Crossfire against the stupid enemy blob at the map border maybe? 

I agree, I personally try that both before and after rework, but does that happen? I would be surprised to hear if you believe that going on or your own (I'm not talking yolo here, just far enough to provide different angles/position) already has an inherent risk of being focused by regular ships. Adding a CV significantly increases that as you'll become a target with no overlapping AA

 

22 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And do you honestly trying to indicate people we’re playijg any active before the rework...? 

I did, because it was less CVs around, thus more opportunity to sneak about, even in (or especially in) larger ships.

But what 1 player does its irrelevant, and I doubt there is a useful metric to check for this. Maybe distance sailed during a match, accounted for which ship etc? Not that WG would publish that even IF they measure this.

[BLUB__BLUB]

19 hours ago, Capra76 said:

Sail away, stealth up, use island cover to your advantage etc.....................

Yes, similar to CV-attack:

- make yourself the furthest away, stay hidden, use island (he cannot drop torps that short...), stick with a teammate...

 

I play CV that is how I know how they work. I usually get a lot less attacked than others.

AA only deals with stupid players. Like in cruisers, where the "armour" only deals with stupid BB players...

There ARE ways... but upto a point. And THAT poi

nt is why CVs are broken:

If CV wants you dead, you are dead, and there is no way you can kill him back.

the only thing you can do/hope is "clip/damage/disable his turrets", sort of. 

 

16 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

In most other situation you can always do something vaguely useful when you meet a superior enemy (ship or skillwise). A last ditch torp launch or ram or similiar.

 

Yes. However you can mitigate CV, and if you are determined you can also DO SOMETHING about it.

Like: hunt the CV. You will need more than one Yolo-DD though and it will take teamwork.

And well, there's the problem, really. 

[1MajorKoenig]

47 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I would be surprised to hear if you believe that going on or your own (I'm not talking yolo here, just far enough to provide different angles/position) already has an inherent risk of being focused by regular ships. Adding a CV significantly increases that as you'll become a target with no overlapping AA

 

Of course. Exposing yourself is risky and overextending gets usually punished really quick. And it is clear that more spotting reduces the opportunity to go all on your own on a flank unscathed and throw torps for 10min.

 

What I meant is that speed is still key. A good push will still win. A CV can do its farming best towards the end of a game. The longer the game lasts the better for the CV. A CV can disturb pushes but ppl tend to vastly overestimate the impact of CV attacks. BBs turn full broadside in front of the enemy just to avoid a 2k torp hit for example or even turn around completely. I had a fun game recently in a PEF (I know - a monster of a ship ) and made a relatively quick push together  with a Mainz and two other dudes on one side after killing the cap contester on that side. We could easily hunt down the enemy Lexington and while he certainly harassed and annoyed us (he may have killed one not sure) a little there is no way he could win this. Unless his team saves him but we all know how well most team plays play out. Afterward we had the enemy CV out of the way and a beautiful crossfire on the enemy blob. Just an example.

 

In General I find it amusing how a lot of bad play is blamed on a CV’s presence.

[OVanBruce]

It's mostly a psichological factor of "if there was no CV I could have done X, Y or Z" so instead of thinking on new tactics or methods to account for the presence of a CV most players simply blame the presence of the CV because it's easier.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

CVs certainly aren't the answer to all problems if average or slightly better CV players control them. (my definition of good CV player might be a bit to high though for some) 

The problem is that if you actually find yourself against a good CV player that you won't be able to just push or make him panic. That CV player will know what is happening and going to happen and already have either moved his ship or has in the meantime dealt with the other flank while moving with the fleet. 

One could argue that these kind of players deserve their superiority because they played mostly flawlessly and reacted correctly but that doesn't change the fact that such players have much more influence over all the battle outcome than anyone else.

 

Yes you can push a weak CV and make him panic, set his autopilot routing to A1 and make him lose flight time and dpm and possibly even his hull eventually. That is however irrelevant because the CV players you should worry about will not fall for your rushed attempts to control the battle. 

[Procrastes]

Another funny thing: I just noted that the 'Juliet Charlie' signal, also known as the anti-detonation-flag, is crossed over - i.e., marked as not recommended - for CV:s. I can only take this to mean that carriers can't be detonated.

If this is true, I'd really like to know the reasons for making them exempt from this fun and engaging mechanic...?