General CV related discussions.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

8 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Depends on a lot of things such as CV, Tier, and what ships are left. CV's don't have the ability to one shot full HP ships, they don't have torp defenses, and they are vulnerable overall to being shot as they aren't armoured. Also don't forget that depending on the battle you could be down most of your planes. For instance the Immelmann does not regen planes at a fast rate and the high tiers are full of AA. A lot of the OP CV tales tend to be in a vacuum. 

CVs can't be detonated but can detonate one shot everything else, even with a single rocket. They can sail away to avoid being torped, have armored decks, are artificially protected against fire, pings and floods and only bad players run out of planes. Speaking about tales in a vacuum.

[Captain_Breeze]

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[The_Angry_Admiral]

36 minutes ago, Europizza said:

CVs can't be detonated but can detonate one shot everything else, even with a single rocket. They can sail away to avoid being torped, have armored decks, are artificially protected against fire, pings and floods and only bad players run out of planes. Speaking about tales in a vacuum.

CV's can be destroyed by a BB with two to three salvos. While they can sail away they need to be in a position to sail away and if they aren't the player has to control the ship which means they aren't controlling their planes. Also sometimes you have to wait for your planes to come back so while you wait that BB or DD is getting ever closer. 

 

You seem to think a CV is always in the perfect situation with the perfect circumstances which frankly rarely happens. You don't take into account all the things that actually happen during the game. CV's do not move like race cars and they don't have main guns that can protect them if they are the last to survive. Also those planes are not fast enough to cover all of the map at once so while you are looking for that last ship it could be getting ever closer. CV's are very easy to find because they are almost always in the same places. 

 

Yes a lot of these arguments are based in what we call a "white room". 

[Procrastes]

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

CVs can't be detonated but can detonate one shot everything else, even with a single rocket. They can sail away to avoid being torped, have armored decks, are artificially protected against fire, pings and floods and only bad players run out of planes. Speaking about tales in a vacuum.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Thanks for reminding me: CV:s can't be detonated either. Frankly, Wargaming's coddling of CV:s has gone beyond stupid and into the realm of insulting - insulting to the CV players, that is. Why they alone among the player community should be thought to be so consistently incapable of managing their own consumables and safe-guard their ship, remains a mystery.

 

Incidentally, I just sent thirty AP shells from my Budyonny through a Hosho, broadside midsection, point blank range. All of them overpenetrations. WG have spoken: "Thou shalt not sink a CV."

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

CV's can be destroyed by a BB with two to three salvos. While they can sail away they need to be in a position to sail away and if they aren't the player has to control the ship which means they aren't controlling their planes. Also sometimes you have to wait for your planes to come back so while you wait that BB or DD is getting ever closer. 

 

You seem to think a CV is always in the perfect situation with the perfect circumstances which frankly rarely happens. You don't take into account all the things that actually happen during the game. CV's do not move like race cars and they don't have main guns that can protect them if they are the last to survive. Also those planes are not fast enough to cover all of the map at once so while you are looking for that last ship it could be getting ever closer. CV's are very easy to find because they are almost always in the same places. 

 

Yes a lot of these arguments are based in what we call a "white room". 

No i dont think CV's are always in the perfect situation, I am describing features specifically designed to accomodate carriers.

 

Your 'arguments' however are exeggerated, very situational and right out nonsense sometimes. Carriers are armored. Carriers have autopilot which works fine in most situations so decent players can steer and fly at the same time. Carriers can attack surface ships with all squadron types and do not have to wait for anything to return unless played poorly and out of all plane types. Carriers are quite fast actually. Carriers dont have main guns the same as most surface ships dont have squadrons of airplanes, how is that even an argument?  Carriers have the highest high survival rate in the game by a mile, so they are more often then not among the last ones to survive, even when played by bad to mediocre players. Because carriers are indeed often found in the same places, simply because carriers are a class designed to 'force teamplay' on everything else but almost always sit somewhere obscure far away from their team themselves. Carriers can one shot plenty of ships that are not full HP, which makes it quite funny you are suggesting I 'white room' arguments or whatever, when you basically do it yourself by adding a full HP condition.

 

The situational examples you bring up are usually the result of a carrier that plays poorly or is the last survivor on a losing team in a stomp for example. Every ship should be vulnerable in those situations, even carriers.

[Procrastes]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

CV's can be destroyed by a BB with two to three salvos. While they can sail away they need to be in a position to sail away and if they aren't the player has to control the ship which means they aren't controlling their planes.

CV:s can be destroyed by a BB with two or three salvos, if the CV is spotted and in range. Unless the CV exposes itself to incoming fire early on, which signifies some kind of misplay on its part, this is unlikely to happen until and unless the team starts losing badly. 

 

If a CV finds itself unable to sail away, it's either because it has misplayed (see above) or because the battle is already lost and it has run out of map space to hide on (again, see above).

 

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Also sometimes you have to wait for your planes to come back so while you wait that BB or DD is getting ever closer. 

CV:s don't have to wait for their active squadron to return before launching a new one; they can just press "F" to instantly be back on the carrier and then hit the launch button. The only exception I can think of is if all squadron types have somehow been depleted - which again signifies some sort of misplay on the side of the carrier.

 

Meanwhile, battleships, cruisers and destroyers also have to wait for their guns to reload before firing off another salvo. They bear this with equanimity.

 

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

You seem to think a CV is always in the perfect situation with the perfect circumstances which frankly rarely happens. You don't take into account all the things that actually happen during the game. CV's do not move like race cars and they don't have main guns that can protect them if they are the last to survive. Also those planes are not fast enough to cover all of the map at once so while you are looking for that last ship it could be getting ever closer.

The lack of race car speed and main guns that can protect them if they are the last to survive, and the fact that they have "planes that are not fast enough to cover all of the map at once so while you are looking for that last ship it could be getting ever closer"...

 

...yes, all these weaknesses really should be removed so that CV:s can reach their true potential.

 

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

CV's are very easy to find because they are almost always in the same places. 

Indeed they are - at the back of the line and safely out of reach from most attacks until the very end of a losing battle.

 

Look, I'm not saying that you are not allowed to like CV:s in their current state, pampered as they are. If you are having fun in them, so much the better. But arguing for them being a well balanced class, now, that is a bit of an uphill struggle these days, don't you think?

[The_Angry_Admiral]

36 minutes ago, Europizza said:

No i dont think CV's are always in the perfect situation, I am describing features specifically designed to accomodate carriers.

 

Your 'arguments' however are exeggerated, very situational and right out nonsense sometimes. Carriers are armored.

So is an armoured car but that doesn't mean a 50 cal bullet can't go through it.  I was just in a battle where my Congress got three citadels on the enemy SEROV. CV's are not "armoured" to where BB's and cruisers have difficulty punching through them.

 

Here is an example: In ITF Taekwon-do there is a kick called a flying side kick which first comes up in the 3rd 1st Dan pattern called Gae-baek. There is also a kick we have called a 360 turning kick but is not in a pattern. I can do these kicks all day long but trying to pull these off while sparring is a whole different story. 95% of the time you aren't going to pull these off because you just won't have the opportunity but if you get the chance they are beautiful.

 

There is a huge difference between having the ability to do something and then having the opportunity to actually do it. When someone doesn't like a particular thing they tend to come up with over exaggerated scenarios to try and make that thing seem worse than it really is. There is no doubt CV's are powerful but come on they aren't all that.

 

 

 

 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

21 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

CV:s can be destroyed by a BB with two or three salvos, if the CV is spotted and in range.

Thing is a CV can be spotted rather easily as sometimes all you need to do is find it when it's planes take off. While you can't pin point the location by this you can get a good rough idea where it is. 

[Procrastes]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:13 AM, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Thing is a CV can be spotted rather easily as sometimes all you need to do is find it when it's planes take off. While you can't pin point the location by this you can get a good rough idea where it is. 

And there is also the infamous "899 Division", where one Graf Zeppelin used its lightspeed TA-152 planes to almost instantly spot the enemy carrier for its division mates in two Musashis, who could often sink the carrier in one go. The whole operation took less than a minute, shell flight time included. It was hilarious. And then Wargaming set a new standard for hypocrisy by declaring the 899 Division tactic to be "toxic gameplay". Sinking a carrier at the start of the game was obviously considered to be against the rules, somehow. 

 

Yes, there are ways to spot a CV early on. There are even situations where it can be sunk early on. But these are all exceptions to the rule - namely that CV:s are built around a playstyle where they are both able and expected to strike at the enemy from a position of relative safety.

 

As long as a CV could be de-planed - having all its aircraft shot down, that is - this was less of an issue, since shot down planes represented an actual loss to the CV. Not so much now, since CV:s have little plane factories on board that can replenish their losses over time. This can be contrasted with the fact that destroyed AA batteries do not, as it were, regenerate. Add all those CV immunities to flame, flood and detonations that have been discussed in previous posts, and you get a seriously pampered ship class. 

 

The weird part is that these perks and immunities are not even necessary. I see no reason why CV captains shouldn't be able to manage their own resources and consumables just as captains of ship from other ship classes do. But for some reason, Wargaming seems to think differently. The best explanation for this that I have heard so far - Wargaming being silent on the issue - is that they are trying to artificially boost CV popularity and player numbers in order to justify the expense they have put into the CV rework. It's a question of prestige as the WG top brass tries to save face rather than build a better CV class, in other words.

[Prophecy82]

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

Sinking a carrier at the start of the game was obviously considered to be against the rules, somehow. 

 

I thought the 2x Kidd + Akizuki div was an EULA-violation....

[Pukovnik7]

11 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Thing is a CV can be spotted rather easily as sometimes all you need to do is find it when it's planes take off. While you can't pin point the location by this you can get a good rough idea where it is. 

And then you still can't do anything about it because any CV player with half a brain will have found an island to hide behind, and brainless ones are humping the map border anyway, making them effectively immune to anything that is not a Yamato. And I'm quite certain I've seem some CVs ricochet Yamato's 18 inch AP... can't say for certain because I have never played Yamato myself though.

13 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

So is an armoured car but that doesn't mean a 50 cal bullet can't go through it.  I was just in a battle where my Congress got three citadels on the enemy SEROV. CV's are not "armoured" to where BB's and cruisers have difficulty punching through them.

 

Depends. I sometimes have to use HE against CVs at long range because AP shells simply bounce off. OTOH, I have gotten citadels against lower-tier CVs while playing destroyers.

 

But if a CV is in situation where it has to worry about such stuff, then either 1) CV player has misplayed to a massive extent or 2) the battle is already lost and it is payback time for all the griefing by the CV player. Fact is, CVs are the only class in the game which does not have to risk its health pool in order to do damage: not even submarines can claim that.

[Procrastes]

16 minutes ago, Prophecy82 said:

I thought the 2x Kidd + Akizuki div was an EULA-violation....

Oh yeah, that one was also on the ropes at one time. I watched a few replays; they were balm on my wounded little DD-main soul after having been hounded like a rabbit on the run back in those early rocket plane days. 

 

Did Wargaming make any of those EULA charges stick? Or did they realize that they were only making themselves look silly, and back off?

[The_Angry_Admiral]

17 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

And then you still can't do anything about it because any CV player with half a brain will have found an island to hide behind, and brainless ones are humping the map border anyway, making them effectively immune to anything that is not a Yamato. And I'm quite certain I've seem some CVs ricochet Yamato's 18 inch AP... can't say for certain because I have never played Yamato myself though.

Depends. I sometimes have to use HE against CVs at long range because AP shells simply bounce off. OTOH, I have gotten citadels against lower-tier CVs while playing destroyers.

 

But if a CV is in situation where it has to worry about such stuff, then either 1) CV player has misplayed to a massive extent or 2) the battle is already lost and it is payback time for all the griefing by the CV player. Fact is, CVs are the only class in the game which does not have to risk its health pool in order to do damage: not even submarines can claim that.

What's hiding behind an island going to do once your general position has been located? I mean a CV can't really just up and go like a whippet. 

 

I had an FDR give my Kremlin broadside a few days ago and let's just say it wasn't pretty. 

 

Sometimes people tend to pass off the limitations of the CV down to the player doing something wrong or not doing the most optimal thing. At the moment you can't control more than one squadron, you can't cover the whole map at the same time, if you CV get's attacked while flying your planes you may need to press F to take control of your ship and move it out of the way which then could cause you to have to wait before sending out more planes, etc...

 

I think the main argument here is that if one team is down to just a CV and the other a DD or BB then the CV could be in trouble.  

[Prophecy82]

2 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

 

Did Wargaming make any of those EULA charges stick? Or did they realize that they were only making themselves look silly, and back off?

I dont think that neither 899 nor 2xKidd + Akizuki Divisions can be qualified as griefing. So this is from the desk.  

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

So is an armoured car but that doesn't mean a 50 cal bullet can't go through it.  I was just in a battle where my Congress got three citadels on the enemy SEROV. CV's are not "armoured" to where BB's and cruisers have difficulty punching through them.

 

Here is an example: In ITF Taekwon-do there is a kick called a flying side kick which first comes up in the 3rd 1st Dan pattern called Gae-baek. There is also a kick we have called a 360 turning kick but is not in a pattern. I can do these kicks all day long but trying to pull these off while sparring is a whole different story. 95% of the time you aren't going to pull these off because you just won't have the opportunity but if you get the chance they are beautiful.

 

There is a huge difference between having the ability to do something and then having the opportunity to actually do it. When someone doesn't like a particular thing they tend to come up with over exaggerated scenarios to try and make that thing seem worse than it really is. There is no doubt CV's are powerful but come on they aren't all that.

 

 

 

 

All carriers have an armor layout scheme like every other ship, they are in fact armored. I have citadelled the light armored parts of low tier carriers with HE sometimes, as I did to cruisers like the Omaha or Smolensk. I think I've even citadelled Battleships with HE occasionally. It's all irrelevant. Armor is not a specific vulnourability of carriers, unless you want to compare them to Battleships which you just did, which is silly for a lot of reasons, but the designed battleships role as damage sponges would be one of them. Higher tier carriers even feature armored decks that can easily bounce a lot BB shells. That doesn't mean you can't penetrate carriers or get citadels in general, but stating carriers aren't armored is simply not true and placing it in brackets won't help.

 

And again, it's peculiar you say 'When someone doesn't like a particular thing they tend to come up with over exaggerated scenarios to try and make that thing seem worse than it really is' when it is what you do to make things look better then they are in general instead. You even tossed in 1 specific personal experience as an example, which is fine, but does not refute anything I've mentioned in regard to your earlier statements. It is a simple example of something that can happen. Great. It is not usabale as an argument that carriers aren't armored or whatever it is you are trying to adress with it.

 

I am not exaggerating here, and if I do, just point to the specific instance and we can discuss it instead of dripping in white rooms or ITF Taekwon-do and other weird generalizations. Carriers have the highest survival rates of all classes in the game because of a vast set of features that help them survive abnormally long when compared to the survivability any other ship class.

 

I don't think they are OP, but I think they are stupid, broken in many cases, and simply too boring and at the same time frustrating to play and play against. I am also not saying carriers are 'all that' whatever that means. I'm just refuting your arguments and examples with information.

 

30 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

At the moment you can't control more than one squadron, you can't cover the whole map at the same time, if you CV get's attacked while flying your planes you may need to press F to take control of your ship and move it out of the way which then could cause you to have to wait before sending out more planes, etc...

You are exeggerating here and posing another example of something that isn't a problem unless a player is bad at managing it's carrier and planes. Also, carriers can't control more then one squad is another moot point made just as saying carriers dont have main guns. Carriers can spawn fighters to spot for example and thus can actually spot in two places simultaniously, three when we consider it's hull. Most surface ships can't even spawn a single controllable squadron. 

30 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

I think the main argument here is that if one team is down to just a CV and the other a DD or BB then the CV could be in trouble.  

Wut. The DD or BB 'could be in trouble' too. What kind of main argument is that? 

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

can replenish their losses over time

Time, currency you usually don't have in your average landslide random game. So either you throw planes at the enemy early on to do as much damage before game is decided and end up with incomplete squadrons when game actually turns out to not be 10min landslide. That or you conserve them, dealing little damage, but also have complete squadrons to bully ships with in so called "late game".

[The_Angry_Admiral]

12 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Time, currency you usually don't have in your average landslide random game. So either you throw planes at the enemy early on to do as much damage before game is decided and end up with incomplete squadrons when game actually turns out to not be 10min landslide. That or you conserve them, dealing little damage, but also have complete squadrons to bully ships with in so called "late game".

This right here. 

 

This goes for the overall CV argument and why most of the OP theories involve being in a white room where you have all the time in the world and infinite resources. 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

45 minutes ago, Europizza said:

 

Wut. The DD or BB 'could be in trouble' too. What kind of main argument is that? 

I will bet you any amount of money that a CV is the one who is going to be in the most danger. 

[principat121]

8 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

This goes for the overall CV argument and why most of the OP theories involve being in a white room where you have all the time in the world and infinite resources. 

You have neither the experience nor the quality of gameplay to have a judgement in this matter.

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 hours ago, Europizza said:

Yes they get more broken at the end of the rounds with ships that have been fighting eachother except the carrier hulls being on their last end with half operating AA and oneshot rocket HP left scattered around.

Well I don't think it makes a difference, if you need 3 strikes or just one. 

Doesn't make them more broken than they are already. In fact... 

...maybe less broken because the CV (wel.. the "usual ones") lost planes.  

 

* Usual ones: 
I float around there in the endgame in my half-health Lolorado, there comes the Ryujo... with TWO planes...

The not-so-usual-ones,. yeah they'll come with a full squad of torp bombers and then just wipe me out.  

[Procrastes]

43 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Time, currency you usually don't have in your average landslide random game. So either you throw planes at the enemy early on to do as much damage before game is decided and end up with incomplete squadrons when game actually turns out to not be 10min landslide. That or you conserve them, dealing little damage, but also have complete squadrons to bully ships with in so called "late game".

This is good to read, because it means that CV captains actually do get rewarded for good resource management and punished for bad. Is it enough, though? Even a depleted squadron can still spot - and I for one am usually more wary of a CV:s spotting capabilities than its own strike potential, especially later on in the game.

 

Be that as it may, I'd still prefer the old system with finite plane squadrons. Perhaps mainly for reasons of immersion and morale, since a) it gets a bit silly to watch squadron after squadron being sent on one way missions never expecting to come back, and b) the mere fact that there is a regeneration factor involved, no matter the spawn rate, can create a tendency for CV captains to be somewhat lackadaisical with their resource management. I think it may encourage an unnecessarily careless play style, although whether that is good or bad for their chosen targets may be a matter for debate.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

44 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

I will bet you any amount of money that a CV is the one who is going to be in the most danger. 

So you basically stopped trying to come up with arguments I see, even as flawed as they were so far. I'll stick to the conversation instead if you don't mind. This is just rubbish.

46 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

This right here. 

 

This goes for the overall CV argument and why most of the OP theories involve being in a white room where you have all the time in the world and infinite resources. 

Nope, that right there is an argument that carrier damage accumilation suffers from landslide games, which is true for many playing that match. If a player yolos squadrons into blobs because he's afraid to miss out on damage, he bleeds, like everyone who yolos bleeds, in any class. Also, late games aren't so called ' late games'. They are actual late games in which carriers have a high probability to dominate isolated HP bled targets that have damaged AA resulting in one-sided one on one engagements.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

This is good to read, because it means that CV captains actually do get rewarded for good resource management and punished for bad. Is it enough, though? Even a depleted squadron can still spot - and I for one am usually more wary of a CV:s spotting capabilities than its own strike potential, especially later on in the game.

Is it enough, simply put: yes. Because the ones that only have one plane left, are usually the ones that are bad. 
AND they'll also not understand that it is their spotting that will kill that last DD off. Instead, they go in, drop the one torp... 

Or they manage to eat even that last weak "black cloud".

 

The better player though, he'll keep his single plane alive and spot you until you're dead. 

He'll GET you killed... but he won;t see any of that XP. 

 

GOOD players keep enough planes on hand to kill you themselves. 

 

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

Be that as it may, I'd still prefer the old system with finite plane squadrons.

The thing is, they did not have that much less planes... they just could send them in all at once. 

And then they DELETED ships in one go. Crossdrop 2 x 12 torps... BOOMSHANKA. 

It was sort of emulated in FDR, with the fat squadrons... I think the most hated CV... 

If you lose the whole squad there (and you can.. surprise MoFo Halland...) it will NOT grow back. 

 

IMO the most TOXIC mechanism is that when one plane gets shot down by FLAK, immediately it gets REPLACED  by "one from above". 

That "reserve plane" also needs no aim, nothing at all. Second TOXIC is that the last plane gets shot down first by DPS. 

 

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

Perhaps mainly for reasons of immersion and morale, since a) it gets a bit silly to watch squadron after squadron being sent on one way missions never expecting to come back,

are you talking Kaga here...  I wonder how much vodka produced that one.. 

BTW if you conserve planes on that, you can just LOL-torp all game... even at T10. 

No need to use bombs or rockets at all... 

 

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

and b) the mere fact that there is a regeneration factor involved, no matter the spawn rate, can create a tendency for CV captains to be somewhat lackadaisical with their resource management.

Well, stupid is as stupid does. In RTS days there were also those that just attacked like a nutter for 5 minutes, and then tried to ram something. 

Also, they were "kinda good" as they were never shut down by the better player. He simple had no chance to kill the red planes as they were already dead. 

And then, after that "semi-good/bad" red one had wrecked half your team (and his planes) he just left, and your GOOD player had to see if he could also do similar damage,

else he'd end up lower "on the ladder"... because he killed less ships than the other one. 

 

1 minute ago, Procrastes said:

I think it may encourage an unnecessarily careless play style, although whether that is good or bad for their chosen targets may be a matter for debate.

Ultimately that doesn't matter, it is the gameplay that suffers. And we ALL suffer because of that.

If something is abuseable, people will abuse it. And then they call that "GitGud"... 

 

Ultimately though, it is WeeGees fault for still having a skill gap - but do you remember how much they were going REEE REEE about RTS CVs?

[Pukovnik7]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

What's hiding behind an island going to do once your general position has been located? I mean a CV can't really just up and go like a whippet. 

 

Um... you do understand that islands block shells?

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Sometimes people tend to pass off the limitations of the CV down to the player doing something wrong or not doing the most optimal thing. At the moment you can't control more than one squadron, you can't cover the whole map at the same time, if you CV get's attacked while flying your planes you may need to press F to take control of your ship and move it out of the way which then could cause you to have to wait before sending out more planes, etc...

 

1) Most of the examples of vulnerabilities of carriers are players doing something wrong.

2) Yes, and? Battleships have a grand total of two independent weapons systems for usage against ships (main battery and secondary battery), and latter is wholly automated, so even with battleships you can't control more than one weapon. And CVs can cover whole map in so short of a time that it makes all other ships look silly, if your CV gets attacked while you are flying your planes that means you have mispositioned...

 

All your complaints come down to frankly insane argument that since CVs are not a God Mod Sue completely invulnerable Hammer of Thor, they are somehow well balanced and not overpowered compared to other ships... well, let's see how CVs ACTUALLY compare to other classes:

 

BATTLESHIPS

• You have to work to set up crossfires, or to funnel enemies into a kill zone where you can tank their fire while your teammates go accomplish objectives.
• You depend on destroyers to protect you from enemy destroyers and also to spot targets for you, and if you are alone against a destroyer, you have to use terrain to back him against a wall or wait for him to make a mistake. Good luck doing that without losing a good chunk of your health.
• You are the largest and most obvious target, and much of the time you will be huddling against islands trying to limit incoming fire. At the same time, you have to draw enemy fire away from your squishier teammates.

CRUISERS

• Your duty is to hunt destroyers, but they generally outspot you, outmaneuver you, and some can outright citadel you... while you have to use HE against the citadelless buggers.
• Did I mention citadel? Chances are, you are one. Any enemy battleship, cruiser, and even some destroyers, will find your citadel if they shoot at you. Sometimes, they won't even have to use AP to do so.

DESTROYERS

• You have a laundry list of duties longer than your arm and you have to accomplish them all the while being a primary target for every single ship on the enemy team.
• You have to husband your health pool very carefully, as most destroyers don't get heals - and those that do, can't really heal much damage with them. And while you can hurt cruisers, they can also hurt you far more if you misplay.

SUBMARINES

• You are basically a shitty tripwire mine, able to do insane damage but you have to rely on others for spotting and wait for the enemies to come to you.
• Every class you fight has a counterplay, and as soon as you are spotted you will get ganged on by multiple ASW airstrikes. And you have to risk getting spotted 

And ALL of the above classes have to risk health in order to achieve their objectives. Meanwhile...

 

CARRIERS

• You can set up crossfires all on your own, as well as to chase enemies (especially destroyers) away from their objectives. Your crossfires are without any limits: terrain doesn't affect it, you spot targets for yourself etc. Also, you deny the enemy team ability to properly set up crossfires with surface ships.
• You can spot destroyers with no assistance, and can use fighters and aircraft to essentially create a no-go zones for them. And if you want to hunt them, you can do it with essentially no risk for yourself.
• You cannot be shot or hurt, ever, until the endgame - at which point you can't do anything anyway, so it doesn't matter. Meanwhile, you can strike literally any ship with impunity. Your health pool are your aircraft squadrons, and these are almost impossible to destroy (useless AA, and they also regenerate.

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Time, currency you usually don't have in your average landslide random game. So either you throw planes at the enemy early on to do as much damage before game is decided and end up with incomplete squadrons when game actually turns out to not be 10min landslide. That or you conserve them, dealing little damage, but also have complete squadrons to bully ships with in so called "late game".

 

56 minutes ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

This right here. 

 

This goes for the overall CV argument and why most of the OP theories involve being in a white room where you have all the time in the world and infinite resources. 

And this is the same for every ship. Especially battleships: do you risk your health to support your destroyers in contesting caps early on by drawing fire away from them, knowing how much of an advantage alive late-game destroyer is, or do you conserve your health for a potentially decisive late-game push? Do you leave destroyers and cruisers on their own while setting up crossfires, or do you draw fire away from them by closing in onto caps but also denying yourself many long-range engagement opportunities in the process?

 

And destroyers: do you contest the caps early on, or do you conserve your health and limit yourself to spotting targets? Do you actively hunt down enemy destroyers, or do you simply screen friendly ship, waiting for enemy destroyers to come to you where you will have immediate and close fire support from other ships on your team?

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

And this is the same for every ship.

Not really, it is sort of "inversed". 

 

In the end, if a BB has 1% HP, he still can shoot all his guns and do full damage. 

If the CV has 100% HP but no (or not enough...) planes he can just.. well... maybe go ram something. 

Yes he can still spot (if he is handy...) but he'll need teammates to do the damage, then.