General CV related discussions.

[Chaoskraehe]

Vor 16 Stunden, Nik_K sagte:

Bombers need to get over a target and guess what, YOU CAN'T AVOID FLAK FROM 1-2km

I'm the world's worst CV player, but even I can dodge flak clouds from 1-2 ships. Starting 3 ships together it gets tricky, but that's my fault for choosing the wrong target or fucked up reading the map. 

 

[Aethervoxx]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:50 PM, Europizza said:

The carriers were broken, rushed and stupid at 0.8.0.

Reworked CVs are & have been utterly horrid for WoWS play.

On 11/30/2021 at 12:11 AM, El2aZeR said:

Again, none of the nerfs have had much impact on CV viability.

Agreed. 

On 11/30/2021 at 2:39 AM, Nik_K said:

all i see is plenty of *edited*

'Neets'? What, exactly, is a  *edited*? 

On 11/30/2021 at 4:40 AM, Nik_K said:

making them less frustrating is.

There is nothing frustrating about the play of reworked CVs - they are so easy to play only someone 'brain dead' could find them frustrating.

On 11/30/2021 at 3:52 AM, SV_Kompresor said:

one of the best CV mains in the game tell you that CVs are strong

I doubt Nik_K is comprehending this.

What would Nik_K make of RTS CV  play, I wonder? 'Impossible'?   (LOL or, alternately, ROFL) 

[gamewalker_nl]

8 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

 

Yup. That 15k DB drop was super low damage.........

 

 

 

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

No, you're whining about your performance in CVs and blaming it on largely irrelevant nerfs that have happened some time ago.

 

Yes you can. Here's an example of a Yamato, a Conqueror and a Des Moines with DFAA active being attacked by a Kaga:

 

 

 

 

Not only was the typical amount of full attacks executed (2x), some planes even survived.

 

 

 

Hi,

Sorry for noob question, nut how do i fire 4 torpedos at ones ? i can fire only 2 at ones (see my picture)

please explain to me how it works

 

Thank you in advance !

 

 

[Bear__Necessities]

18 minutes ago, gamewalker_nl said:

 

 

Hi,

Sorry for noob question, nut how do i fire 4 torpedos at ones ? i can fire only 2 at ones (see my picture)

please explain to me how it works

 

Thank you in advance !

 

 

That Hakuryu that you are using only has a 2 torp drop squadron. The example you've seen is Kaga. A premium CV which only comes with a 4 torp drop option. Different national lines will have different torp drop amounts. Some premium ships will also drop different amounts compared to the national line. Hence the Kaga being different to the Japanese T6, 8 and 10.

I'm not at my PC so can't compile and accurate list of the top of my head. But can do it tomo unless someone can do it before then. 

[gamewalker_nl]

5 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

That Hakuryu that you are using only has a 2 torp drop squadron. The example you've seen is Kaga. A premium CV which only comes with a 4 torp drop option. Different national lines will have different torp drop amounts. Some premium ships will also drop different amounts compared to the national line. Hence the Kaga being different to the Japanese T6, 8 and 10.

I'm not at my PC so can't compile and accurate list of the top of my head. But can do it tomo unless someone can do it before then. 

thank you very much. 

at list i know now the truth.

Tnank you again m8 o7

[Flaky26]

Před 6 hodinami gamewalker_nl řekl/a:

how do i fire 4 torpedos at ones ?

Hello. Bear already explained. I will add this.

See this page:

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PASA110&modules=11211&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&consumables=11&pos=0

 

If you check torpedo bombers stats, you can see, how many planes are in squadron (red line), how many planes are in attack flight (yellow) and how many torpedoes carries one plane (blue).

For example Midway, top TB.

You have 3 planes in attack flight and each plane carries 2 torpedoes.

3 x 2 = 6.

6 torpedoes per attack fligt (if all planes in attack flight are alive).

 

[Nibenay78]

Fun and engaging moments vs CVs...

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 11/30/2021 at 11:42 PM, Panocek said:

Probably would rate it higher, all you needed for skill floor was to right-click (?) enemy ship and auto attack was carried out with decent odds of actually doing something

At that time, my RTS CV skills were more or less cursing at the PC when something I clicked failed to compute...

Sometimes the whole thing gave a system hang-up for half a minute. Right-clicking was kinda hard...  

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 11/30/2021 at 6:10 PM, Nibenay78 said:

Met beastie in a game. For his delusions he's actually friendly to talk to/play with. Unlike mr aggro here...

Actually his game averages were (in those days before he hid them) above average.

His methods of finding some fun, though probably not the best way to play/spec, at least serve a purpose.

Instead of "GitGud" he chose "GitFun". I can appreciate that. 

[MoshiMimi1]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen, I have played this game since 2016 and I think I can properly say that I have seen some changes in the game along the way, some good and some not so good, but it caught my attention yesterday I played for a while At night and in all games there were 2 carriers per team, something that seemed strange to me at the time of making the match making note that they had to choose at least 10 carriers, I particularly play with destroyers I would say that 95% of my games, and note that it is almost impossible for destroyers to play games with more than one carrier per team, I don't know if they modified the carriers or they did something different, but also note that at the end of the games, only the carriers were left playing against each other, the rest of the ships were already sunk. In the 5 years more or less that I have been playing this game, I have never seen so much advantage in a certain type of ships, I do not say that they remove or Nerf any type of boat, but I think that it would be more fun if you can let's say in someway filter the game you want to play with or without a certain type of ship in such a way that you could choose to play games without carries for example or something like that because in reality it is not that fun you always will have a plane over you as long as the game last and the rest of enemy team will be firing at you. Of course you can spent the time

hiding behind the islands but I think that's not the idea of a game and much less for those who play destroyers. The same scenario  apply for other types of ships that you do not want to play in a particular game against for instance destroyers, cruisers or battleships, it is just an idea. Thanks.

[Procrastes]

A Tale of Two Shokakus

 

I just played a battle in my Lo Yang, with one Shokaku carrier on each team. Balanced enough from a points perspective, of course - but there's more to balance than just numbers. There is also the element of, shall we say, someone suddenly deciding to take the path less traveled.

 

But to get on with the story: I started scouting towards the enemy lines, and my Radio Location skill quickly told me that I was coming up against an enemy destroyer who obviously had the same idea. Not wanting to end up in a fair fight if I could help it, I turned around and sped back towards my allies to enlist support.

 

Most of my allies, as it turned out, had already left for other areas of conflict. The only ship to remain in my general vicinity was our carrier, a Shokaku - which suited me fine, provided I could persuade him to assign a squadron of rocket planes to join me in taking the fight to the enemy destroyer. Since the carrier was already perilously close to the incoming threat, I believed I could make a good case for joining forces.

 

With this in mind, I typed in chat, "DD in F1".

I then added, "CV give rocket cover, hunt DD together?"

 

I freely admit that my wording was somewhat crude. I am by no means one of those keyboard wizards who can type great works of literature with one hand while simultaneously conducting military operations with the other. Even so, I thought I had done a passable job of conveying my idea of an improvised battle plan.

 

Whether it was due to my attempts at communication or out of some other impulse I will never know, but the Shokaku immediately raised steam and set off - in the direction from which the enemy destroyer was coming.

 

After a few seconds of slack-jawed bewilderment I got my wits about me, and set off after him. I also activated my hydro in order to give at least some advance warning of the torpedoes that were indubitably already on their way.

 

To be fair to the Shokaku, he did manage to dodge all but two of the torpedoes from the enemy destroyer, a Le Fantasque that appeared out of the sea-mist and right on their heels. Finding myself in a close quarters brawl with a fiery Frenchman, I spent the next minute or so in a frantic cauldron of shells, torpedoes and Camemberts that left little room to worry about my Shokaku ally - though the occasional appearance of friendly planes overhead signaled that he was taking an active interest in the proceedings.

 

For once I managed to play my Lo Yang to her strengths, smoking up and using my hydro to shoot from invisibiltiy, and then baiting the Fantasque with staggered torpedo drops to make him turn out of the way of the first launch and into the second with too little room to dodge. He went down right at the edge of my smoke screen, fighting to the last. It was a good battle, and one that left me with precious little HP left.

 

It also left the team without its carrier. As I cautiously emerged from my little smoke cloud, with a wary eye to the sky - for the enemy carrier had also taken an interest - our Shokaku was nowhere to be seen. He had taken too much damage from those two torpedoes to make it out of there, and whether he had been sunk by the Fantasque's guns or by the enemy carrier was anyone's guess. My work in this map sector was done, and I set out to contest the nearby cap.

 

What happened there could be the subject for another tale - suffice to say that it involved a valiant (and good-looking) Lo Yang, fighting side by side with his allies against the nefarious machinations of a hulking Missouri and a wily Halland. It was a battle with many twists and turns, and it ended with the Lo Yang as the lone survivor.

 

What followed then, with two destroyers remaining on each team and the clock ticking down on an equal points score, could have been a battle of wits and subterfuge, with dashing destroyer captains fighting to the last amids the breaking waves of a faraway sea. It could have been glorious. It could have been the stuff of legend.

 

But it was not - for the enemy team also had their CV. The enemy Shokaku - who had not, obviously, charged an incoming destroyer at the start of the match and got sunk for it - had no troubles in locating and sinking the two remaining and rather battered destroyers of the green team in short order. Effective? Yes. Fun and engaging? No, not particularly.

 

The moral of the story is this: Carriers don't make for a better game, and no single ship class should have such a decisive - and destructive - effect on available tactics.

 

Good night to all and sundry!

[The_Angry_Admiral]

22 minutes ago, Procrastes said:

A Tale of Two Shokakus

 

I just played a battle in my Lo Yang, with one Shokaku carrier on each team. Balanced enough from a points perspective, of course - but there's more to balance than just numbers. There is also the element of, shall we say, someone suddenly deciding to take the path less traveled.

 

But to get on with the story: I started scouting towards the enemy lines, and my Radio Location skill quickly told me that I was coming up against an enemy destroyer who obviously had the same idea. Not wanting to end up in a fair fight if I could help it, I turned around and sped back towards my allies to enlist support.

 

Most of my allies, as it turned out, had already left for other areas of conflict. The only ship to remain in my general vicinity was our carrier, a Shokaku - which suited me fine, provided I could persuade him to assign a squadron of rocket planes to join me in taking the fight to the enemy destroyer. Since the carrier was already perilously close to the incoming threat, I believed I could make a good case for joining forces.

 

With this in mind, I typed in chat, "DD in F1".

I then added, "CV give rocket cover, hunt DD together?"

 

I freely admit that my wording was somewhat crude. I am by no means one of those keyboard wizards who can type great works of literature with one hand while simultaneously conducting military operations with the other. Even so, I though I had done a passable job of conveying my idea of an improvised battle plan.

 

Whether it was due to my attempts at communication or out of some other impulse I will never know, but the Shokaku immediately raised steam and set off - in the direction from which the enemy destroyer was coming.

 

After a few seconds of slack-jawed bewilderment I got my wits about me, and set off after him. I also activated my hydro in order to give at least some advance warning of the torpedoes that were indubitably already on their way.

 

To be fair to the Shokaku, he did manage to dodge all but two of the torpedoes from the enemy destroyer, a Le Fantasque that appeared out of the sea-mist and right on their heels. Finding myself in a close quarters brawl with a fiery Frenchman, I spent the next minute or so in a frantic cauldron of shells, torpedoes and Camemberts that left little room to worry about my Shokaku ally - though the occasional appearance of friendly planes overhead signaled that he was taking an active interest in the proceedings.

 

For once I managed to play my Lo Yang to her strengths, smoking up and using my hydro to shoot from invisibiltiy, and then baiting the Fantasque with staggered torpedo drops to make him turn out of the way of the first launch and into the second with too little room to dodge. He went down right at the edge of my smoke screen, fighting to the last. It was a good battle, and one that left me with precious little HP left.

 

It also left the team without its carrier. As I cautiously emerged from my little smoke cloud, with a wary eye to the sky - for the enemy carrier had also taken an interest - our Shokaku was nowhere to be seen. He had taken too much damage from those two torpedoes to make it out of there, and whether he had been sunk by the Fantasque's guns or by the enemy carrier was anyone's guess. My work in this map sector was done, and I set out to contest the nearby cap.

 

What happened there could be the subject for another tale - suffice to say that it involved a valiant (and good-looking) Lo Yang, fighting with his allies against the nefarious machinations of a hulking Missouri and a wily Halland. It was a battle with many twists and turns, and ended with the Lo Yang as the lone survivor.

 

What followed then, with two destroyers remaining on each team and the clock ticking down on an equal points score, could have been a battle of wits and subterfuge, with dashing destroyer captains fighting to the last amids the breaking waves of a faraway sea. It could have been glorious. It could have been the stuff of legend.

 

But it was not - for the enemy team also had their CV. The enemy Shokaku - who had not, obviously, charged an incoming destroyer at the start of the match and got sunk for it - had no troubles in locating and sinking the two remaining and rather battered destroyers of the green team in short order. Effective? Yes. Fun and engaging? No, not particularly.

 

The moral of the story is this: Carriers don't make for a better game, and no single ship class should have such a decisive - and destructive - effect on available tactics.

 

Good night to all and sundry!

What you just described there doesn't sound like a CV issue but just a bad move by a player. 

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

What you just described there doesn't sound like a CV issue but just a bad move by a player. 

CVs are always the issue... 

[Arty_McFly]

48 posts removed.

Reason: off-topic

[Procrastes]

On 12/5/2021 at 9:00 PM, The_Angry_Admiral said:

What you just described there doesn't sound like a CV issue but just a bad move by a player. 

You are quite right, Captain, insofar as the early loss of our CV was entirely due to a misplay on his side. I bear him no ill will whatsoever for that; mistakes were made but I have made - and will doubtless make many more - equally bad ones myself. Misplays on the one hand, and the opportunity to take advantage of them on the other, are part of the game.

 

What I take issue with is the fact that CV:s tend to have such a deciding impact on battles, that any difference in skill between the concerned CV players on each side is bound to have a disproportionate effect on the battle.

 

Or to put in in other words: If you suck as a CV captain, your lack of skill - as well as any mistakes you make - will hurt your team much more than if you were playing in a ship of any other class. This is one reason why I seldom play CV:s outside of Co-op or Operations.* I am an astoundingly crappy CV captain, and I do not wish to saddle my team with the burden of my incompetence.

 

Needless to say, having such a disproportionately influential class present in a multiplayer PvP game is not good for the game. It upsets the balance and is inherently bad game design. Wargaming are obviously well aware of this, and they equally obviously do not care. It's up to us, as players, to keep the CV population** at tolerable, if not enjoyable,*** levels. I do my part by playing them mostly in Co-op or Operations, if at all. If Wargaming wants me to take them into random battles, they could start by removing their plethora of unnecessary and insulting immunities, and make them at least somewhat challenging to play. As it is, they are almost as big a travesty of good gameplay as the newly introduced submarines.

 

 

 

* The other reason being that they are boring to play as well as to play against. But that's the subject of another post.

** Please note that I am talking about the CV population here, not the CV player population. No one should be punished for simply playing the game with the tools proivided. I treat any CV captain I encounter with the same courtesy as I would any other fellow gamer, and I exhort everyone who might read this post to do the same. We should not let the unfortunate presence of CV:s disturb the nice and friendly atmosphere that still holds sway in the World of Warships!

*** An enjoyable level would be zero (0). 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Procrastes said:

the fact that CV:s tend to have such a deciding impact on battles, that any difference in skill between the concerned CV players on each side is bound to have a disproportionate effect on the battle.

True. I do not play CVs that much these days, but yesterday I felt like being a troll... yes shame on me...

I have an excuse though, we had some other T8 divs in the clan and went click-in-countdown...

So as that usually gives opposite sides I intended a "surprise"... 

 

What happened was I took Kaga, and we got a T7/8/9 battle with that Epicenter thing. The reds had a Graf Zeppelin. 

Each team had 1 DD (and a sub, but who cares about those). My mate had taken a cruiser and he went right, so I spotted that side first.

Most of the team went that way... Well so did the enemy team, thus I moved my CVB to the left. Also I went closer to the center. 

 

Then I started to wreck the 3 ships on that left flank, and also FF-ed their DD who kept a bit to the middle. 

Must say he was pretty good he ate only one bomb and one torp. However enemy CV didn't manage to do anything about out DD. 

 

I killed the Bismarck and near-killed a North-Carolina. The cruiser on the left got blapped because I spotted him.

Not only that, my torps gave him the choice between eating them all or broadsiding my team.. yeah, BLAP happened. 

 Then I moved my CV into the outer circle, capping it... then the next circle, behind a fat island.

Meanwhile I was still unspotted (my team calling me nuts for moving CV in the cap but hey). 

By coming in closer I could wreck the reds even harder. Our team just flattened them, we lost 3 ships and killed them all. 

 

In the end, I also killed off the Graf Zeppelin.. who had not moved from his spawn. Spotted + 8 torps gave me the kill.

So, 2 kills, 150K damage and 3rd place in the team, red CV ended almost bottom. And I'm not even that good. 

I'm guessing  but maybe I could have deleted him at the start, too. 

 

You might say "balanced" as that is 2 kills and 150K, but I will not usually do 150K + 2 kills in whatever other class.
And it is also a fat lie if they say " well at least damage is balanced", because I could have just farmed BBs, or something. 
Then that game might have delivered 200, 300k (depending on flooding/fire...)? What if I get more "GitGud"? 

I'm just a bit savvy but the skill gap is already present. Even if I do not (have to) bother with the other CV.

 

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, Procrastes said:

What I take issue with is the fact that CV:s tend to have such a deciding impact on battles, that any difference in skill between the concerned CV players on each side is bound to have a disproportionate effect on the battle.

 

In fact what you are describing is what I call "the end battle problem"; CV as a class tend to get more powerful as the battle progresses and AA defences are whittled down, such that towards the end of a tight and closely fought game they can become absolutely dominant and virtually strike targets at will.

 

What this means is that close and exciting games are fewer and further between, and the surface ships ability to affect the outcome of such games is much reduced, thus removing much of the reason to play the game in the first place.

[BLUB__BLUB]

15 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

In fact what you are describing is what I call "the end battle problem"; CV as a class tend to get more powerful as the battle progresses and AA defences are whittled down, such that towards the end of a tight and closely fought game they can become absolutely dominant and virtually strike targets at will.

The same could be said about DDs though. As the amount of ships get less, he runs less risk of detection. 

Certainly after radar runs out (or all of them have been killed) and hydro is used up. 

And if he is the last one, then good luck finding him. Usually you never will and he just keeps farming... 

 

15 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

What this means is that close and exciting games are fewer and further between, and the surface ships ability to affect the outcome of such games is much reduced, thus removing much of the reason to play the game in the first place.

In case of a DD surviving that long, he either well-deserved it or he was a useless b@stard for the previous part of the game. 

[Procrastes]

22 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

In fact what you are describing is what I call "the end battle problem"; CV as a class tend to get more powerful as the battle progresses and AA defences are whittled down, such that towards the end of a tight and closely fought game they can become absolutely dominant and virtually strike targets at will.

 

What this means is that close and exciting games are fewer and further between, and the surface ships ability to affect the outcome of such games is much reduced, thus removing much of the reason to play the game in the first place.

Very well summed up!

 

I might add that irrespective of remaining AA strength and the ability - if any - to repel a few air attacks, a CV can often prove decisive towards the endgame simply by spotting the surviving ships on the enemy team - making a mockery of any attempt to out-think and outmaneuver one's opponents. 

 

Through no fault of their individual captains, carriers contribute greatly - by their very presence - to the dumbing down and vulgarization of what was, and in many aspects still is, a remarkably brilliant tactical online PvP game. Wargaming are deliberately downgrading their own product. It's really such a shame.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The same could be said about DDs though. As the amount of ships get less, he runs less risk of detection. 

Certainly after radar runs out (or all of them have been killed) and hydro is used up. 

And if he is the last one, then good luck finding him. Usually you never will and he just keeps farming... 

 

No it cant. Destroyers get stronger later in the game, Carriers get more broken.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

No it cant. Destroyers get stronger later in the game, Carriers get more broken.

Eh well, I do not see how they get MORE broken, because they are already. 

 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

7 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

In fact what you are describing is what I call "the end battle problem"; CV as a class tend to get more powerful as the battle progresses and AA defences are whittled down, such that towards the end of a tight and closely fought game they can become absolutely dominant and virtually strike targets at will.

 

What this means is that close and exciting games are fewer and further between, and the surface ships ability to affect the outcome of such games is much reduced, thus removing much of the reason to play the game in the first place.

Depends on a lot of things such as CV, Tier, and what ships are left. CV's don't have the ability to one shot full HP ships, they don't have torp defenses, and they are vulnerable overall to being shot as they aren't armoured. Also don't forget that depending on the battle you could be down most of your planes. For instance the Immelmann does not regen planes at a fast rate and the high tiers are full of AA. A lot of the OP CV tales tend to be in a vacuum. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Eh well, I do not see how they get MORE broken, because they are already. 

 

Yes they get more broken at the end of the rounds with ships that have been fighting eachother except the carrier hulls being on their last end with half operating AA and oneshot rocket HP left scattered around.

[Procrastes]

7 hours ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

CV's... don't have torp defenses 

They do have an almost total immunity to flooding, though? On top of their almost total immunity to fire?

Or have I got this wrong?

[MoshiMimi1]

13 hours ago, Europizza said:

No it cant. Destroyers get stronger later in the game, Carriers get more broken.

 

We ended up talking the same thing, it is very difficult for a dd to stay late in the game if there are two good cvs players on the opposing team, it is almost impossible unless, as they said somewhere " useless b@stard for the previous part of the game " ,  hidden behind an island.