General CV related discussions.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Wulf_Ace sagte:

with all those radars and CVs, their position is given away anyway

We are talking about first minute of the game first bloods. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A great way to grief your own teammates by constantly giving away their position just like fighters do now. Won't even deny any strikes as you can just despawn them.

Yeah better attach them to enemies... 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

We are talking about first minute of the game first bloods. 

TBH some DDs will run forward so hard, looks to me they need to beat the cruisers to sink... 

[Wulf_Ace]

4 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

We are talking about first minute of the game first bloods. 

ok then attach them and expand their area of escort to be random around that DD and not exactly above him

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Wulf_Ace sagte:

ok then attach them and expand their area of escort to be random around that DD and not exactly above him

How far around him? 3km is already enough to pinpoint his location. Anything larger and the fighter will run into enemy aa and get killed. 

[Wulf_Ace]

2 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

How far around him? 3km is already enough to pinpoint his location. Anything larger and the fighter will run into enemy aa and get killed. 

ok you are not helping me :)

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Wulf_Ace said:

ok then attach them and expand their area of escort to be random around that DD and not exactly above him

 

Doesn't change that the engage area of a fighter will still be fixed. A CV gets told when he enters it, enabling them to pinpoint the location of an escorted DD.

Not to mention that the process of despawning the fighter allows them a free scout of the area.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 6 Minuten, Wulf_Ace sagte:

ok you are not helping me :)

There is no solution I'm sorry. 

 

We had 1 year to think about them and so far the only thing that still prevails is that the current rework iteration is to flawed to have solutions. 

[Wulf_Ace]

1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

There is no solution I'm sorry. 

 

We had 1 year to think about them and so far the only thing that still prevails is that the current rework iteration is to flawed to have solutions. 

remove rocket planes? 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Wulf_Ace sagte:

remove rocket planes? 

Feel free to take any ijn CV except Kaga and try to kill a DD coming for you without your teams assistance without rockets. 

You see now how the whole thing is flawed? 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

21 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Feel free to take any ijn CV except Kaga and try to kill a DD coming for you without your teams assistance without rockets. 

You see now how the whole thing is flawed? 

You consider a ship class that would actually need assistance in countering another type of ship flawed? Then you must be advocating a game wide AA buff for every ship including destroyers so each and every one can fight off carrier attacks on it's own surely :-)

 

PS: but you are right ofc. the rework is utterly flawed.

[Panocek]

7 minutes ago, Europizza said:

You consider a ship class that would actually need assistance in countering another type of ship flawed? Then you must be advocating a game wide AA buff for every ship including destroyers so each and every one can fight off carrier attacks on it's own surely :-)

Throw in overpen nerf for BB AP, so they can't casually shave half of DD hp and we might get closer to a solution

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

9 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Throw in overpen nerf for BB AP, so they can't casually shave half of DD hp and we might get closer to a solution

Isn't there already a way for BB's to shave off DD HP? 

Spoiler

High splosion?

 

By removing rocketspam from the carriers toolbox would allow for an overhaul rebalance of features that have been mauled into weird and completely artifical solutions, including an revisit on how divebombers should interact with DD's for instance.

 

[Panocek]

20 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Isn't there already a way for BB's to shave off DD HP? 

  Hide contents

High splosion?

 

By removing rocketspam from the carriers toolbox would allow for an overhaul rebalance of features that have been mauled into weird and completely artifical solutions, including an revisit on how divebombers should interact with DD's for instance.

 

Why you would ever switch to HE, when AP overpens are more than viable?

 

HE can be soaked by modules like torp tubes or guns, while AP can't, as long as there is piece of a ship to touch.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Why you would ever switch to HE, when AP overpens are more than viable?

 

HE can be soaked by modules like torp tubes or guns, while AP can't, as long as there is piece of a ship to touch.

In that case we agree, I think I misread what you wrote inititally :D

[Viravandrel]

5 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

Feel free to take any ijn CV except Kaga and try to kill a DD coming for you without your teams assistance without rockets. 

You see now how the whole thing is flawed? 

No, its not flawed - it's exactly as it should be. Every class should have something to fear, CV fears nothing. if you remove rocket planes fast or sneaking DD would actually stand a chance of getting you. if not as soon as I see an exclamation mark showing im spotted I immediately send a squadron of rocket planes and pound poor DD to death while running away (he has only few knots advantage over me, he cannot really catch me in time and his artillery is laughable because of stupid 5s repair) 

 

on the other hand hitting DD with torps is almost impossible and dive bombers have trouble hitting (but its doable) - exactly as it should be as DDs have enough problems with being spotted already, carrier don't need to farm dmg from them - BBs are better for that. Let cruisers and your DDs do the work. Carrier is a capital ship meant to attack big and fat targets, not waste his time chasing chaff. 

 

heck - DD currently stand absolutely no fighting chance against firespam cruisers or small one against normal cruisers - why there shouldn't be a class that cannot do anything/almost anything to DDs? and please don't tell me BB are bad vs DDs... as DD main I started playing stupid BBs and have even charged DD in smoke - what, is he going to hit me? one or two torps in front? wow 1/3 HP and I kill him immediately afterwards anyway. I have spent one game on Missouri pushing vs shima (ok, he had to run away from supporting cruisers so he couldn't sneak on 6km from me) - he didnt hit me with a single torp whole game as i randomly changed course from time to time - easy peasy. 

 

oh and other stuff- rocket planes also damage poor cruisers too much, not only they live in constant fear of being deleted from other side of the map by stupid citadelling, you also have to watch out for planes instead of planes fearing you as AA escort ship. Seriously - remove those stupid Rocket Planes and maybe it will get better.

[poopooo]

1 hour ago, Viravandrel said:

No, its not flawed - it's exactly as it should be. Every class should have something to fear, CV fears nothing. if you remove rocket planes fast or sneaking DD would actually stand a chance of getting you. if not as soon as I see an exclamation mark showing im spotted I immediately send a squadron of rocket planes and pound poor DD to death while running away (he has only few knots advantage over me, he cannot really catch me in time and his artillery is laughable because of stupid 5s repair) 

 

on the other hand hitting DD with torps is almost impossible and dive bombers have trouble hitting (but its doable) - exactly as it should be as DDs have enough problems with being spotted already, carrier don't need to farm dmg from them - BBs are better for that. Let cruisers and your DDs do the work. Carrier is a capital ship meant to attack big and fat targets, not waste his time chasing chaff. 

 

heck - DD currently stand absolutely no fighting chance against firespam cruisers or small one against normal cruisers - why there shouldn't be a class that cannot do anything/almost anything to DDs? and please don't tell me BB are bad vs DDs... as DD main I started playing stupid BBs and have even charged DD in smoke - what, is he going to hit me? one or two torps in front? wow 1/3 HP and I kill him immediately afterwards anyway. I have spent one game on Missouri pushing vs shima (ok, he had to run away from supporting cruisers so he couldn't sneak on 6km from me) - he didnt hit me with a single torp whole game as i randomly changed course from time to time - easy peasy. 

 

oh and other stuff- rocket planes also damage poor cruisers too much, not only they live in constant fear of being deleted from other side of the map by stupid citadelling, you also have to watch out for planes instead of planes fearing you as AA escort ship. Seriously - remove those stupid Rocket Planes and maybe it will get better. 

With the DD everything is very relative, the DD have no chance if they are used insane and die within 5 minutes of departure, but if they survive long enough and the enemies are somewhat decimated, especially the cruises that are the ones that die First, the DDs can torpedo without opposition, look for the CVs, capture bases, come on, since being in equal numbers having two DDs and the opposite does not surely make you win the game, that's why the CVs go for them, because lon the most unbalanced boats if played by someone who knows.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ToximusPrime]

CV's need a counterplay against destroyers. But the opportunity of hitting them with undodgable rockets is just broken by definition. This isn't the only problem though. Free spotting, floating plane factories vs. destroyable AA turrets, rewards without risking their vessels, AP bombs vs. CA's/BB's, unlimited range and a massive deck armor with 5 seconds fire are just plainly broken mechanics. This is quiet unique in Wows, other pvp games like MOBA's and shooters (Valorant is the best example) don't have these mechanic issues. It baffles me that Wargaming still doesn't want to acknowledge these massive balancing problems. They're even lying by stating CV's aren't overperforming (CV's lead every single category except tanking and capping).

 

The way Wargaming handles this situation is completely toxic and definitely the wrong approach, I've never seen a developer that turned its biggest EU/NA CC supporters into enemies (Flambass, Flamu, Mejash, Izo, Business6, ichase and even Notser started to get upset). Within a year. It's been 14 months since the rework went live, not a single of these broken mechanics got changed except slingshots (I'm not talking about adjusted damage numbers). Right now, there're two options to end this clown fiesta: 1) Temporary remove CV's from pvp matches and rework the mechanics again or 2) make an alternative random mode that limits the classes to DD's, CA's and BB's. Option 2 won't happen, Wargaming knows that the vast majority of players would only play this mode. This is also the reason why WG NEVER made an explicit poll about CV's. They know that most of the people hate to play against them.

 

Personally I'd love to see CV's and submarines in the game but Wargaming is unable to make these classes balanced and fun to play against. Until now, I've only played CV's on the PTU since I don't want to fight against players who can't defend themselves. It's insane that we still have the same exhausting discussions we already had 1 1/2 years ago.

[poopooo]

It can be a solution to increase the life of all the ships in the game, so the CVs would not cause as much damage to the ships, apart from giving the cruise ships a little more possibilities.Of course this would have to come together with other changes, than the torpedoes of ships do less damage and hits in citadels do not do as much damage by slightly increasing damage from normal penetrations.

 

[DeviousDave02]

21 minutes ago, poopooo said:

It can be a solution to increase the life of all the ships in the game, so the CVs would not cause as much damage to the ships, apart from giving the cruise ships a little more possibilities.Of course this would have to come together with other changes, than the torpedoes of ships do less damage and hits in citadels do not do as much damage by slightly increasing damage from normal penetrations.

 

Wouldn't work sadly, CV's need waaay more than a simple damage reduction to make them function in game. If you just lower the damage output by upping other classes HP pools and/or reducing CV damage directly all that will happen is CV as a class will die off as the amount of effort required  to achieve a decent score outweighs the capability of most players to perform to that level (See RTS Carriers) leaving only Unicums behind who will still wreck everything in their path (see how 8.5 AA changes went) 

 

CV's are sadly broken at the core as @El2aZeR has said all along and personally I believe this is because they were never actually finished. (Conspiracy theory time... get your tinfoil hats ready)

 

I suspect with CV's and the state they are in (and this will never be confirmed) is thanks to WarGaming shoving them out the door half baked under the pretense that 'We need more data from the public server to better balance and improve CV game play' while never actually intending once on the live server to actually work on them fully anymore, other than minor stat tweaks, even though I suspect they knew they were not ready.

 

Why? I hear you cry...

 

Submarines, that's why.

 

Back before the rework was even released Wargaming was planning on adding Subs to the game. The Halloween 2018 event was, with hindsight, an obvious indicator of that. Think about it, on one hand a class that already has a player base ingame and is... mildly popular but anyone interested has already played and bought Premiums for the class and on the other hand an untapped market that has a thread opened every other week to ask "Submarines when pwease" indicating a large interest.

 

How could they not want a slice of that pie.

 

So Wargaming pulled staff and development time from the half done CV rework to shove into Sub development when the Halloween OP showed it was fully viable. They then kicked it out onto the live server because by that point they had already bigged it up to much to quietly back away and can the idea without losing face to the community and causing a PR nightmare that would make the Puerto Rico blush in envy.

 

Hence the CV rework and why we have had hardly any content since then involving CV's besides the British CV line (which I suspect was already 80-90% done model wise as part of the reeeeeework), the return of the old Premiums (already there and ready to go so little work to milk some more money from CV players) and the two British premiums one of which was in development hell before the CV rework IIRC.

 

I mean if you were releasing a major update to your game involving a complete rework of a class, something you had put a huge amount of time and effort into would you just leave it out of every single event and game mode for that year when they are supposed to be your poster child that you have spent months hyping up?

 

Probably not.

 

And if that rework turned out to have issues would you just shrug and walk away after making a few minor tweaks... even though this was the BIG BIG thing you had been promoting for ages?

 

Probably not.... not unless you had something else you reeeeeeeaaaallllyyyy wanted to work on instead (sonar pinging intensifies)

 

So this is why they have done absolutely nothing all year (and a bit) to really try and fix CV's despite the hundreds of calls for them to do so, because they were working and solely focused on Submarines instead, the new cash cow they hope to check in.

 

But hey, just a theory... right? 

 

[ForlornSailor]

Come on people, we are at about 250 pages of CV-"discussion" /counting the +200 pages from the previous topic.

 

Unless you are really bored, its time to stop. Nothing is ever gonna change and for nothing any of us writes here will change anything. Some of us experianced this even before CV rework was ever a topic, when trying to improve RTS CVs.

We are at a point, where every second new players turns into a CV main at T4 (a bad one, I might add), while the other half turns into JB mains. If you are really that upset with where WG is driving this game, there is only one sensible solution...

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, ForlornSailor sagte:

there is only one sensible solution...

Exactly. +1 karma. You have been complimented. 

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Come on people, we are at about 250 pages of CV-"discussion" /counting the +200 pages from the previous topic.

 

Unless you are really bored, its time to stop. Nothing is ever gonna change and for nothing any of us writes here will change anything. Some of us experianced this even before CV rework was ever a topic, when trying to improve RTS CVs.

We are at a point, where every second new players turns into a CV main at T4 (a bad one, I might add), while the other half turns into JB mains. If you are really that upset with where WG is driving this game, there is only one sensible solution...

 

So you Experianced that everyone Complained about RTS and nothing ever Changed......

I am Sorry. But if you cant see the Obvious Problem with that Statement which just Defeats your Entire Post then I really have no Idea what else I could possibly say to Convince you of the opposite.

[BLUB__BLUB]

I'd say the fault is -easy- vs how much damage. 

Like, yes AP on a citadel is much damage, but it is difficult. 

Shooting HE and farming fires is much more easy, but can be repaired. 

 

How about a fix-rocket-damage thing. Yes a DD can still be killed by rockets, if he stays exposed.

But if he runs, he can manage to heal it. CV can still kill him if he comes for the CV. 

[1MajorKoenig]

12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Nothing is ever gonna change and for nothing any of us writes here will change anything. Some of us experianced this even before CV rework was ever a topic, when trying to improve RTS CVs.

 

Not quite. You complained - numbers showed evidence - WG listened. And gave you the rework 

 

 

(that you still don’t like it is a different story)