General CV related discussions.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

it's always fun :3

 

 

 

Are you saying you can't dodge Yoshino flak either? 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Yosha_nai said:

Are you saying you can't dodge Yoshino flak either? 

I'm saying, it's fun to play Yoshino :3

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm saying, it's fun to play Yoshino :3

So what is the gif for? to show how bad the enemy CV is? he would have lost the planes to any t10 ship that way 

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which ofc is purely subjective and therefore irrelevant.

Just like your comment. If this is fun to me, then this is fun to me.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Yosha_nai said:

So what is the gif for? to show how bad the enemy CV is? he would have lost the planes to any t10 ship that way 

I doubt, that he would lose that in any T10 ship. Only against Def-AA cruisers or other similar ships.

 

Yoshino has a lot flak explosions. So if you have another T10 with only a few, then there will be more gaps and he will take less dmg. Also he was not a bad player overall

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

I doubt, that he would lose that in any T10 ship. Only against Def-AA cruisers or other similar ships.

 

Yoshino has a lot flak explosions. So if you have another T10 with only a few, then there will be more gaps and he will take less dmg. Also he was not a bad player overall

every other cruiser has the same flak and obviously I account for dfaa. Yoshino isn't special and it's easy to dodge the flak if the brain is functioning 

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

every other cruiser has the same flak and obviously I account for dfaa. Yoshino isn't special and it's easy to dodge the flak if the brain is functioning 

 

Austin 10

Yoshino default is 8, with skills and DefAA Mod its 11

Petro 8

A Nweski 8

Hindenburg 7

Wooster 7

Goliath 6

Minotaur 6

Zao 6

Henri 5

Des Moints default 5

 

Hm, yes, they have all the same flak ^^

And I'm glad, that the unicum players don't have a functioning brain

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Austin 10

Yoshino default is 8, with skills and DefAA Mod its 11

Petro 8

A Nweski 8

Hindenburg 7

Wooster 7

Goliath 6

Minotaur 6

Zao 6

Henri 5

Des Moints default 5

 

Hm, yes, they have all the same flak ^^

And I'm glad, that the unicum players don't have a functioning brain

 

So you are saying 2 additional clouds are hard to dodge? 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

So you are saying 2 additional clouds are hard to dodge? 

Seems so. But the thing is not just 2 more.

 

Imagine you have a Des Moines. That's the extreme level. That Des Moines players goes with no AA stuff, so he has 5 flak explosion

Now you skill a full AA Yoshino, then you get with DefAA 11 flak explosions.

 

I say, yes, that is more effective, than 6 less flak explosions. It's even more fun, if you do that with Austin

 

And actually, CVs take way more often Flak, then you think, mostly it's just not noticed, because only 1 or 2 planes touch the flak

[Yosha_AtaIante]

I mean considering how flak works and how easy it is to bait and control where it spawns as CV player there might aswell be 20 clouds

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

I mean considering how flak works and how easy it is to bait and control where it spawns as CV player there might aswell be 20 clouds

And yet we are all humans and do mistakes. I noticed a few unicums playing like "Yoshino AA is not good" and then they lost the full squadron.

Also in a battle happens so much, that they might lose track of something. I'm pretty sure, that there is no CV player who has a 100% dodge rate ;)

 

Btw the player in the gif has 16k games with 69% WR, though not a CV main

[BLUB__BLUB]

13 hours ago, Icecaptain10 said:

But see it wasn't the BBs blapping me that was the issue.  The cv just swooped right in with his torps, while I'm in the middle of 3 other top tier 7 ships. 4 torps later, I'm dead.

Well yeah, that is what they are supposed to do. Four torps will do it anytime. 

That is a T5 cruiser and a T6 CV will finish you if he wants to. (However, Omaha, so it will cost him planes).

I think that was a Ryujo, else he wouldn't be able to finish you with 4 torps. He has flimsy planes.

To get off two attacks he must have been smart or you FF-d it up, as in: being not as much in the middle as you think. 

Of course he'd go for you as you were the lowest tier. 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Mate come on.

Seriously. If your in a CV and your not a Problem for a Cruiser. Then you are doing something wrong.

For Cruisers on T8 and lower. A CV is a Nightmare. Yes they can Hurt CVs due to the Strong AA. But the vast Majority cannot Heal. And many of the Weapons of a CV can easily take a Quarter of their HP in a Single Attack if they cant evade it.

And they very often cannot Evade it because Evading it would mean showing Broadside to Enemy BB in an exposed position while Spotted.

True. But how many T6Cvs know that. I suppose just as many as cruiser players that know it. 

Also, usually I see them lose half the squad to Omaha AA and they cannot pull of a second attack. 

As he says 4 torps that would have been Ryujo else he'd not die. Ryujo has flimsy planes. 

I could probably pull off two attacks on an Omaha, so could you - but when he is in the middle of 3xT7 ships?

Must have been a handy CV player or something else. 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

I actually often do this on Purpose at the Start of the Match. I drop an Enemy Cruiser with Torps. And I will generally Crossdrop him. Which means not only wont he be able to evade entirely. But he will also be Forced to Show Broadside to my Team. This for an Enemy Cruiser is an absolute Horror. Because to an Enemy Cruiser which at T8 has like 40-45k HP and I will easily do 10k and more with the Torps. Worse. It will be 20k unless he Shows Broadside to my Team and thereby Risks being Instant Blapped.

I also do it at T10, unless in FDR where it is usually a BB that gets it (will not deny a cruiser that is in "great farmable position" though). 

But T6/T8 CV? yes cruiser, unless I can whack a DD pretty hard. 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

This is Generally very Effective. Because not only will such a Cruiser be Damaged Heavily and thus rarely do anything useful anymore this Battle as he has no Choice to Fall back so he doesnt get Focused down extremely Quickly.

But he also will Fail to take a Forward Position where he is actually useful to his Team.

True. I do it as well. But let's be honest here, you and me are not exactly the average CV player. 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm pretty sure, that there is no CV player who has a 100% dodge rate ;)

100% dodge rating is not needed. Sustainable damage is key. 

Think of it like a Conqueror that has 1 fire, he doesn't care if he has 1 fire for the whole game.

And as long as he can make sure that is all he gets it is no problem.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

100% dodge rating is not needed. Sustainable damage is key. 

Think of it like a Conqueror that has 1 fire, he doesn't care if he has 1 fire for the whole game.

And as long as he can make sure that is all he gets it is no problem.

The full squadron got killed before the drop... and this was fun.

 

Also this is a good point. The damage on Yoshino is rarely sustainable from a CV. They attack once, notice the AA, then they go for easier and closer targets. So they wasted damage potential.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The full squadron got killed before the drop... and this was fun.

Yeah that is equal to that Conqueror giving broadside to an Ohio or something. 

It is HIS fault and as such he got punished. 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Also this is a good point. The damage on Yoshino is rarely sustainable from a CV. They attack once, notice the AA, then they go for easier and closer targets. So they wasted damage potential.

Yes they did. That is how it should work indeed. 

Like that Conqueror shooting at a Russian BB, he'll just DC, no fires to harvest. 

On top of that he shoots back and damages your turrets. Next time pick the fat Musashi and hope he doesn't bite.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The full squadron got killed before the drop... and this was fun.

 

Also this is a good point. The damage on Yoshino is rarely sustainable from a CV. They attack once, notice the AA, then they go for easier and closer targets. So they wasted damage potential.

But players who attempt to drop Yoshino in the first place are already pepega. And those don't really matter. They lose the same amount of planes to other ships or pick unimportant targets. It doesn't matter if you therefore are in Yoshino or other ships. The influence of people who need to trial and error Yoshino AA is already non-existant because there is no scenario where early or midgame you would ever want to go for Yoshino as a good CV player (avoiding unicum because to many pepegas are unicum these days) 

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

But players who attempt to drop Yoshino in the first place are already pepega. And those don't really matter. They lose the same amount of planes to other ships or pick unimportant targets. It doesn't matter if you therefore are in Yoshino or other ships. The influence of people who need to trial and error Yoshino AA is already non-existant because there is no scenario where early or midgame you would ever want to go for Yoshino as a good CV player (avoiding unicum because to many pepegas are unicum these days) 

You mean because the position a Yoshino is usually found, the rear of the map spamming HE...

Could be exactly why they get dropped. I sometimes drop on a Yoshino with FDR, because of that. 

After finishing off that camper Musashi, still have one torp load left... heyyyy what's that... a lonely Yoshino... 

(usually it is the enemy Cv that gets it though, after all that is standing still).

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

(usually it is the enemy Cv that gets it though, after all that is standing still).

topkek, I see what you did here 

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

topkek, I see what you did here 

Yeah press F or spend half a minute more, return they will anyway.

Also, dump a "fighter squad" at ~9km...  

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Just like your comment.

 

Unfortunately reality decides what is objective or subjective.

That CVs are overpowered is objective and can be proven by statistics.

That you have fun despite that is subjective and can only be proven by yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And yet we are all humans and do mistakes.

 

Even if flak is taken while making a mistake in evasion the damage is going to be negligible because it will at best clip a plane or two and have little to no effect on losses or amount of attacks executed, not melt the entire squad.

You parade this whole "everyone makes mistakes" around as if every mistake always costs you the entire squad which is ofc laughably disingenuous.

 

Yoshino AA is objectively mediocre.

[Pikkozoikum]

49 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

But players who attempt to drop Yoshino in the first place are already pepega. And those don't really matter. They lose the same amount of planes to other ships or pick unimportant targets. It doesn't matter if you therefore are in Yoshino or other ships. The influence of people who need to trial and error Yoshino AA is already non-existant because there is no scenario where early or midgame you would ever want to go for Yoshino as a good CV player (avoiding unicum because to many pepegas are unicum these days) 

Thats the theory. In Theory the good players play all perfect.

And then they do irl mistakes like every other human. The whole game is only about doing mistakes, counts for surface ships as well.

 

Also I disagree with these type of argumentation "Oh he was just best". Even if I play against unicums, it's always "Well, then he did bad". When they always all do bad all the time, then I have no clue, how even to talk about it. I really need to wait for that one match, which fits the other peoples arguments. Maybe yolo in with Yoshino and then getting killed by CV. I have no idea xD

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Could be exactly why they get dropped. I sometimes drop on a Yoshino with FDR, because of that. 

I had it once, that a FDR took full flak of my Yoshino with DefAA, two big hits and a bit of continous dps (me and allies) and they were gone. I think one hit was 24k or something, I don't remember

Sadly I get not that often engaged ;_;

 

48 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

After finishing off that camper Musashi, still have one torp load left... heyyyy what's that... a lonely Yoshino... 

(usually it is the enemy Cv that gets it though, after all that is standing still).

Though that describes it quite well, why sometimes a Yoshino gets dropped. It just leads to that situation.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Also I disagree with these type of argumentation

that's okay. 

 

 

But we should really talk about high potential of what CVs can do and could do. So realistically it should never matter that your Yoshino kekked on some pepega CV players squad. 

 

It would matter however if that same thing happend against me regularly for example. Then I would be able to come to an agreement with you. But since me striking a Yoshino in a similar situation is basically not possible because I know that I will be wasting time it's automatically like arguing on the effectiveness of AA in a bad scenario for the CV and the state of the CV players skill. 

 

 

That's why I said any ship besides Yoshino would have been effective in your example with flak. 

 

However no ship would be effective if the CV player was me or el2a 

[BLUB__BLUB]

31 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Unfortunately reality decides what is objective or subjective.

That CVs are overpowered is objective and can be proven by statistics.

That you have fun despite that is subjective and can only be proven by yourself.

I think CVs are broken AF, so the ones that are knowledagable can abuse them. 

Would not know if they are Overpowered as such (something like Petropavlovsk is). 

 

7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I had it once, that a FDR took full flak of my Yoshino with DefAA, two big hits and a bit of continous dps (me and allies) and they were gone. I think one hit was 24k or something, I don't remember

Sadly I get not that often engaged ;_;

There's two things with that. 

1. You were with allies. So either they were also at the back or you were doing it wrong (Yoshino is long range HE spam or will not survive long). 

2. FDR attacking a Yoshino that has some friends around is certainly doing it wrong.

 Two wrongs do not make a right, it is just a question who got hit the hardest there, he failed the most. 

 

Quote

Though that describes it quite well, why sometimes a Yoshino gets dropped. It just leads to that situation.

Yes dropping on a Yoshino is coincidence, or he is doing it wrong. 

 

4 minutes ago, Yosha_nai said:

However no ship would be effective if the CV player was me or el2a 

 

... with me he'd have a 25% chance (that I would be that pepega).

[Pikkozoikum]

24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Unfortunately reality decides what is objective or subjective.

That CVs are overpowered is objective and can be proven by statistics.

That you have fun despite that is subjective and can only be proven by yourself.

Doesn't matter if Midway is op or not. In this match, she wasn't and I had fun. Also it's not only be proven by me, everyone can see, what happend. If someone lacks to understand, why this could be fun. Then talking about it is pointless anyways.

 

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Even if flak is taken while making a mistake in evasion the damage is going to be negligible because it will at best clip a plane or two and have little to no effect on losses or amount of attacks executed, not melt the entire squad.

And yet entire squads get killed. And yet it makes a difference, if a squadron can attack 1 time or 2 times.

 

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Your parade this whole "everyone makes mistakes" around as if every mistake always costs you the entire squad which is ofc laughably disingenuous.

You interpretation astonishes me always.

 

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Yoshino AA is objectively mediocre.

Eh, sure.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And yet entire squads get killed

they don't if by mistake you graze a flak? only the planes actually touching the flak which is usually as el2a explained 1 or 2 at most get damaged at best.