General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

23 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

That is only your assumptions. More CV might give more complaints, yet the main compaints are:

Well, that's all about assumption, I mean I don't see any facts or prooves for anything :D

 

23 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

So everything about the quality. Even with immersion the RTS was better. The battle was over you and you could even help either your teammates by spesifically targeting dangerous strike craft, or help your own CV by targeting fighters. It was an interesting game of chess. AA cruisers could be USEFUL due to long range strong AA, and correct positioning was good.

Actually those "main complaints", I see them way weaker, then the complaints against RTS CV.

But what is worse for you?

 

A mediocre annoyance, that happens every 2nd or 3rd game

Or a heavy annoyance, that happens every 20th game?

 

I think, that is the major reason, why we have more complaints

[Nibenay78]

24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, that's all about assumption, I mean I don't see any facts or prooves for anything :D

You assume stuff. 

 

I stated 4 major complaints that pop up about rework CVs. Do you deny that any of these complaints are frequently pointed to? 

I also pointed out why these spesific complaints are NOT valid for RTS and thus more RTS matches would not give more of these complaints.

 

There certainly may be more of other complaints indeed. But then we are back to assuming things.

 

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Actually those "main complaints", I see them way weaker, then the complaints against RTS CV.

What would you rate as top RTS complaints? 

 

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But what is worse for you?

 

A mediocre annoyance, that happens every 2nd or 3rd game

Or a heavy annoyance, that happens every 20th game?

In my eyes it is a heavy annoyance every 2nd games compared to a sometimes OP-but-often-interesting experience every 20th game.

 

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I think, that is the major reason, why we have more complaints

We are up to what now.. 1000 pages? Not counting the many closed ones popping up at times. And this is because of a class that at most is less than 17% of the population in tier 7+ matches.

 

I would love to see the amount of discussion pages counted for both types.

[Medic85]

Hi,

I was wondering if the Essex and all the other carriers will return that dissappeared in CV reworked?

 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

I stated 4 major complaints that pop up about rework CVs. Do you deny that any of these complaints are frequently pointed to? 

No, doest it matter?

 

5 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

I also pointed out why these spesific complaints are NOT valid for RTS and thus more RTS matches would not give more of these complaints.

You said, there are more complaints, I said, the effect comes probably because you have the Rework-CV in your match more often. And as said, you might get the same amount, if you would have the same amount of RTS CV matches

 

5 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

What would you rate as top RTS complaints?

"Skill gap" - Good CV players dominate weaker CV players (Fighter vs fighter interaction)

Very high Alpha Damage - CV can one shot DDs, CAs and more or less BBs.

Weak AA - Many ships had very weak AA - like Asashio level^^

 

Though not sure, how that matters

 

5 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

In my eyes it is a heavy annoyance every 2nd games compared to a sometimes OP-but-often-interesting experience every 20th game.

I never had this interesting experience. Probably I need a Minotaur for that xD

I would say, it's now way more interesting and it was pain back then.

 

5 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

We are up to what now.. 1000 pages? Not counting the many closed ones popping up at times. And this is because of a class that at most is less than 17% of the population in tier 7+ matches.

 

I would love to see the amount of discussion pages counted for both types.

I don't see the context between population and number of threads ^^

But I mentioned earlier, why CV is a low played class but also an annoyed one.

CV is like the sniper, artillery or "immune" class in ohter games, those classes are always hated and never liked. That has nothing to do with the how it is designed in one game, it's by default how the class function ^^

And well, CV low population is also because it's not a popular class by default (one reason, not the only reason)

 

Did a poll once, only 34 participated, but better then nothing

DD - 10

Cruiser - 9

BB - 8

CV - 4

SS - 3

 

So in case, that everything would be perfectly balanced and every gameplay would makes same fun, we would still have a lower CV (and SS) population, because people like DD, Cruiser and BB more.
The poll was btw about their favorite ship type in general, not about this game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

 

14 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, that's all about assumption, I mean I don't see any facts or prooves for anything :D

 

Actually those "main complaints", I see them way weaker, then the complaints against RTS CV.

But what is worse for you?

 

A mediocre annoyance, that happens every 2nd or 3rd game

Or a heavy annoyance, that happens every 20th game?

 

I think, that is the major reason, why we have more complaints

 

That's funny. We have multiple instances of DD's BB's and CA's in every match, yet we still have to uncover complaints threads as massive as the ones about carriers for any of these other classes. Your thinking never leads to anything substantial sadly.

 

 

[Nibenay78]

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, doest it matter?

The facts are: the complain threads for the rework threads are massive. The complaints are different than for RTS.

Anything else is assumtions, for example I agree more RTS carriers would probably give more complaints. Yet this is only assumptions. Since the complaints are different, it's hard to say if the amount of complaining would be equal. You seem to think so, I don't. But that's just assumptions from both of us.

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

You said, there are more complaints, I said, the effect comes probably because you have the Rework-CV in your match more often. And as said, you might get the same amount, if you would have the same amount of RTS CV matches

The facts are: the complain threads for the rework threads are massive. The complaints are different than for RTS.

Anything else is assumtions, for example I agree more RTS carriers would probably give more complaints. Yet this is only assumptions. Since the complaints are different, it's hard to say if the amount of complaining would be equal. You seem to think so, I don't. But that's just assumptions from both of us.

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

"Skill gap" - Good CV players dominate weaker CV players (Fighter vs fighter interaction)

Very high Alpha Damage - CV can one shot DDs, CAs and more or less BBs.

Weak AA - Many ships had very weak AA - like Asashio level^^

Thank you. So we DO agree the complaints are different.

The two latter are simply balance issues that could be tweaked as much as we had a year of continous tweaking with RW CV

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Though not sure, how that matters

 

I never had this interesting experience. Probably I need a Minotaur for that xD

I would say, it's now way more interesting and it was pain back then.

As we discussed before, I tended to pick high AA ships spesifically to be a teamplayer. When ones saves the last remaining BB from a massive alfa strike, just because of positioning and timing, it feels like one is doing something useful for the team to win. Gearing with 7.2km AA and defAA had a purpose teamwise. Now it isn't enough for self defence.

 

Same with for example Montana. Sure it's big and slow like all BBs, yet it could at times be a massive pain in the butt for attacking CVs. With 7.2 range, one would continously pick off strike craft at long range.

 

Now it's not interesting because most long range AA is mostly to flush down the toilet. 

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

I don't see the context between population and number of threads ^^

But I mentioned earlier, why CV is a low played class but also an annoyed one.

Really?

Few instances of annoying/OP/unfair/etc ships = low complaint count

Many instances of annoying/OP/unfair/etc ships =  high complaint count

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

CV is like the sniper, artillery or "immune" class in ohter games, those classes are always hated and never liked. That has nothing to do with the how it is designed in one game, it's by default how the class function ^^

And well, CV low population is also because it's not a popular class by default (one reason, not the only reason)

I don't disagree, but then again I'm not sure adding snipers in every game might be a good choice. Personally I'd love to keep CVs in the game, but in their current form I'm way more tempted to quit playing at all. 

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Did a poll once, only 34 participated, but better then nothing

DD - 10

Cruiser - 9

BB - 8

CV - 4

SS - 3

 

So in case, that everything would be perfectly balanced and every gameplay would makes same fun, we would still have a lower CV (and SS) population, because people like DD, Cruiser and BB more.
The poll was btw about their favorite ship type in general, not about this game.

Just because it's unpopular doesn't mean everyone else would whine about it? It's clearly not balanced like the rest. If a game has a overweight of either BB, CA or DD, it's perfectly possible to have a fun game.

 

Please tell me you think a tier X game with 5 CVs pr side would be incredible enjoyable as a surface ship!? 

 

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

That's funny. We have multiple instances of DD's BB's and CA's in every match, yet we still have to uncover complaints threads as massive as the ones about carriers for any of these other classes. Your thinking never leads to anything substantial sadly.

Indeed. Wonder why. I really don't see why I even bother discussing with people who don't grasp this. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

5 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Indeed. Wonder why. I really don't see why I even bother discussing with people who don't grasp this. 

Just set your blablardar on stun ^^

Spoiler

Block'em. 

 

[ghostbuster_]

16 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Actually those "main complaints", I see them way weaker, then the complaints against RTS CV.

But what is worse for you?

Says who? There are way more complaints about new "action gameplay" CVs (you can have a meal while playing them btw. So much action(!)) than we have ever had about RTS CVs. Sheer number of complaints ist mostlikely much more than RTS ones. And i am only talking about the quantity of complaints. When we consider the quality aswell, it gets much worse.

[El2aZeR]

10 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

CV is like the sniper, artillery or "immune" class in ohter games, those classes are always hated and never liked.

 

This somehow implies that such a class with this level of immunity exists in other games.

To compare snipers and artillery with CVs is beyond disingenuous.

[Nibenay78]

15 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

This somehow implies that such a class with this level of immunity exists in other games.

To compare snipers and artillery with CVs is beyond disingenuous.

indeed, to compare with WoT... the sole reason I started playing artillery was to do counter-artillery. It worked pretty well.

Does it work pretty well in WoWs? not so much...

 

edit: lets not forget that artillerys only advantage is indirect fire. In most other aspects they are near useless (armor, turn rate, speed, spot range and-so-on-and-so forth)

[ghostbuster_]

53 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

indeed, to compare with WoT... the sole reason I started playing artillery was to do counter-artillery. It worked pretty well.

Does it work pretty well in WoWs? not so much...

That was why i started to play RTS CVs  to counter enemy CVs. I learned fighter management way before i learned how to cross torp DDs.

[Nibenay78]

30 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

That was why i started to play RTS CVs  to counter enemy CVs. I learned fighter management way before i learned how to cross torp DDs.

Mostly same here, it was like playing chess against the other CV, while trying to both kill the enemy while protecting your own team AND not get deplaned.

Even though I didn't play much, it was sometimes quite engaging.

 

Playing rework CV is more like "which enemy surface ship should i piss on today" and not so much more. This is the feeling I get...

[FellRaven]

This is an amusing 350+ Page discussion (to be polite).

 

Basically none CV Player says CVs don't fit with a battleship game like this and ruin the game because:

• There is no effective counter a CV can always strike it's target (Seriously whoever thought Rocket Planes were a good idea!)
• CVs risk nothing they are immune to counter play,
• CVs are so dominate (Overpowered) that a Good CV Player is basically an "I win button"
• CVs make the game boring because you have to play ultra defensively
• CVs are far too resilient surviving when they are caught out of position instead of dying quickly as a floating bomb should
• CVs should not be able to spot!

CV players:

• Suck it up noobs there is nothing wrong with CVs you are all useless I played 2 games in a DD and never had an issue, learn to dodge.
• WG I lost 2 planes to a DDs AA trap you need to Nerf Sector AA now and make DDs easier to see.
• WG the American Cruisers AA works fix it so it doesn't

 

Basically I fall into the "CVs don't fit with a battleship game like this and ruin the game" and unless WG start listening to their player base they are going to lose revenue. Why would anybody pay money for the Agincourt at tier 5 which will face constant CV games and has NO literally NO AA. 

 

Of course another option might be that for every 1 game you play as a CV you have to play 9 as a conventional ship against CVs.

[Pururut]

Carry on with your debate please, I will unload some frustration.

 

Can someone please tell me how to prevent carriers from ruining my gameplay as a DD player?  I am at tier 6 with all destroyers and have finally realized the mechanics of the game to some extent with islands, radar, hydro and etc. I dont have much of a problem with initial positioning according to enemy line up and evading carrier attacks but the latter is particularly annoying as I have no means of fighting back while he spots for his entire team.

In a non-French/Pan-Eu DD I can smoke up but that is me losing a charge of a limited and very valuable consumable while the CV loses nothing and to add insult to injury in a stealth focused destroyer that is the entire opening move ruined as the enemy team has a solid idea about my whereabouts due to either being spotted or to the presence of smoke nearby. Disengaging is always an option against surface ships as the artillery fire and consumables such as radar or hydro can reach only so far with islands and good initial positioning. Carriers dont care about either of these. The only guaranteed way I can think of discouraging CVs is to always stay in the close vicinity of light/heavy cruisers with good AA but that is not always available and somewhat negates the point of playing a destroyer. Not that it matters as the CV can perform the scouting role of a destroyer itself with zero risk involved.

 

I was thinking of buying T-61. A lovely evening with double CV games took care of that idea for good and this is pre-Ise matchmaking. If this is how it is at tier 6 I dont want to think about how it will be at tier 8 and above. Again I have no issues in games with no carriers and in fact I perform semi decent in them. 

 

Alright that is enough rambling. Judging from 352 pages in this thread I have zero hope in Wargaming so here is how it will be; I will immediately cease grinding all DD lines and focus completely on Akizuki and Halland. If high tier DD play interest me in the ships mentioned in the previous sentence I will also obtain Friesland. Until then I wont bother playing in double CV games with destroyers. Same rule applies to games with multiple hybrid ships.

 

If you have a solution as a DD player on countering CV players then please present it. Offer it in any way you want be that via insults, criticism or in a constructivist manner. At this point I dont mind how it is presented as long as it is logical and practical. 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, FellRaven said:

This is an amusing 350+ Page discussion (to be polite).

 

Basically none CV Player says CVs don't fit with a battleship game like this and ruin the game because:

• There is no effective counter a CV can always strike it's target (Seriously whoever thought Rocket Planes were a good idea!)
• CVs risk nothing they are immune to counter play,
• CVs are so dominate (Overpowered) that a Good CV Player is basically an "I win button"
• CVs make the game boring because you have to play ultra defensively
• CVs are far too resilient surviving when they are caught out of position instead of dying quickly as a floating bomb should
• CVs should not be able to spot!

CV players:

• Suck it up noobs there is nothing wrong with CVs you are all useless I played 2 games in a DD and never had an issue, learn to dodge.
• WG I lost 2 planes to a DDs AA trap you need to Nerf Sector AA now and make DDs easier to see.
• WG the American Cruisers AA works fix it so it doesn't

 

Basically I fall into the "CVs don't fit with a battleship game like this and ruin the game" and unless WG start listening to their player base they are going to lose revenue. Why would anybody pay money for the Agincourt at tier 5 which will face constant CV games and has NO literally NO AA. 

 

Of course another option might be that for every 1 game you play as a CV you have to play 9 as a conventional ship against CVs.

Oh, it's a battleship game, that explains a lot xD

 

Actually, which "Battleship game" like this has no planes/CVs/Submarines etc?

[Nibenay78]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Actually, which "Battleship game" like this has no planes/CVs/Submarines etc?

The good one? 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

The good one? 

So all the games are bad? ;D

Even this game has CVs

[Nibenay78]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

So all the games are bad? ;D

Every single one where the bad CV touches me, and I don't shoot down 70+ planes and kill him.

 

The non-CV games are good!

[Thanks_for_all_the_fish]

I honestly don't understand the CV rework.

 

The pre-rework system of RTS carriers was FUN to me. I had to multitask and yes, it was challenging but since when does "challenging" = "not fun"?

Yes, there were players who'd taken the RTS to a WHOLE nother lvl. If you met one of those...you were in trouble. If you had one of those on your team, you had to adapt and be aggressive or be left behind. But above all...beyond all other arguments...THOSE PLAYERS WERE RARE!

But there's never ever been a game where I've said "this is easy, therefore it's fun".

 

As for counterplay...remember "panicked squadrons?" It happened when a ship used Defensive AA. The "pilots" of the planes got panicked by the amount of AA coming at them, that they could not focus. That was also fun to me. I was going in for a strike and Oh crap! Def AA!! Am I committed? yes? Strike poorly. No? RUN!!!

 

In what universe has CVs ever been factories? The old mechanic that you could be "de-planed" was fun. It forced you to THINK. To CHOOSE your targets. This "magic-plane-factory" BS we have going now...boring. SO BORING!

 

And finally, the single biggest reason a CV sank during WW2? As I understand it...bad dmg-control. So this "instant-auto-dmg control" feels rediculous. 

[Pikkozoikum]

11 minutes ago, Thanks_for_all_the_fish said:

The pre-rework system of RTS carriers was FUN to me.

Well, some have fun with this, some have fun with that xD
Some people like stragety games, some not.

But I think, it was not the reason for the rework, that nobody had fun with that.

 

13 minutes ago, Thanks_for_all_the_fish said:

Yes, there were players who'd taken the RTS to a WHOLE nother lvl. If you met one of those...you were in trouble. If you had one of those on your team, you had to adapt and be aggressive or be left behind. But above all...beyond all other arguments...THOSE PLAYERS WERE RARE!

But there's never ever been a game where I've said "this is easy, therefore it's fun".

I had almost only games, were it was easy or I got stomped ^^

Especially against Saipan fighter set up. But for sure, all the AA weak ships definetly had no fun getting dev striked and perma flooded ^^'

Back than one flood had the damage of 2 floods now and I think also the Flood chance was higher, I don't think that is fun for others :D

 

15 minutes ago, Thanks_for_all_the_fish said:

As for counterplay...remember "panicked squadrons?" It happened when a ship used Defensive AA. The "pilots" of the planes got panicked by the amount of AA coming at them, that they could not focus. That was also fun to me. I was going in for a strike and Oh crap! Def AA!! Am I committed? yes? Strike poorly. No? RUN!!!

Though, if there was no DefAA, the torpedo drops and bomb drops were super accurate, no aiming-time. Planes also turned like tanks :D

 

17 minutes ago, Thanks_for_all_the_fish said:

In what universe has CVs ever been factories? The old mechanic that you could be "de-planed" was fun. It forced you to THINK. To CHOOSE your targets. This "magic-plane-factory" BS we have going now...boring. SO BORING!

Well, I think they could remove the plane regeneration, but "magic plane factory" i'm not sure about that. I think Carriers could assemble planes or at least replace damaged parts

So it's not much more magic like the rest of the games with infinite torpedos, Radar thorugh mountains, the whole spotting mechanic (A dd can see a BB at 15km, but a BB not a DD at 6km?)

 

 

[Thanks_for_all_the_fish]

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Back than one flood had the damage of 2 floods now and I think also the Flood chance was higher, I don't think that is fun for others :D

Yes, this is one of WG better changes. I'll even go so far as to say it makes a top list. The old flooding system was insanely OP. It's deserved to be nerfed and it was.

 

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Though, if there was no DefAA, the torpedo drops and bomb drops were super accurate, no aiming-time. Planes also turned like tanks :D

I will freely admit I don't remember it being that bad. Especially since, in my experience, the players skilled enough to make use of it were rare. But yes, I will admit a fully aimed drop by anything had a really tight grouping.

 

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I had almost only games, were it was easy or I got stomped ^^

As opposed to now? :)

This can and will happen. But in MY experience, the number of times it happened because of CVs was rare...before the rework.

 

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Well, I think they could remove the plane regeneration, but "magic plane factory" i'm not sure about that. I think Carriers could assemble planes or at least replace damaged parts

Absolutely. Good CV with skilled crews could replace parts or even whole aircraft, given time. But that's not what we have ingame, is it? No, on CVs in game we most definately have "magic plane factories" because the CVs of today NEVER run out. Yes, they may send only 1-2 planes instead of the 9 they should...but they STILL SEND THEM! And even in the best of worlds...even the biggest CV only has so many PILOTS. Or...you know...in reality, anyway.

[ghostbuster_]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Especially against Saipan fighter set up.

If someone used a fighter setup saipan, it would usually mean, that someone is an utter potato.  and if you couldnt manage to outplay that guy, it would only mean that you are even a bigger potato 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But for sure, all the AA weak ships definetly had no fun getting dev striked and perma flooded ^^'

 

Cool. And since post rework all AA is weak except for 2 or 3 ships, we can assume almost no one has fun now? 

[Prophecy82]

14 hours ago, Pururut said:

 

 

If you have a solution as a DD player on countering CV players then please present it.

 

If you want to be effective in a DD? 

Pray that the CV is a complete potato.... thats the only solution. 

[Kyorinn]

3 saat önce, Prophecy82 dedi:

 

If you want to be effective in a DD? 

Pray that the CV is a complete potato.... thats the only solution. 

even when they are potato they can permaspot you like its nothing so you would die cuz of the spotting of the cv does so it doesnt really matters if cv is a potato or not