General CV related discussions.

[Lootboxer]

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I guess that was their innitial thought when attempting to make a hardcap on 3 CVs... but i assume thinking 1 step further, that surface ships would be reduced and CVs just hammering one ship together, was too complicated.

The only way to balance it (atleast i cant think of any other) would be to have a planecap for all CVs together. So if its 1 CV or 3 CVs per side - always ~same amount of planes available. Basicly the regeneration time x3, and less planes to start with.

But then playing already the most boring class with 1/3 of planes would too much fun and way too engaging for me to handle 

[arquata2019_]

i randomly ask questions here, so here's another:

Why should i get the 4PT captain skill -25% damage from flaks? because there's a 100% you will get them when you attack 2 ships or a ship that is using DFAA. i'm using it. any good? any opinions?

[Miscommunication_dept]

22 minutes ago, arquata2019 said:

i randomly ask questions here, so here's another:

Why should i get the 4PT captain skill -25% damage from flaks? because there's a 100% you will get them when you attack 2 ships or a ship that is using DFAA. i'm using it. any good? any opinions?

In most CVs you should be avoiding almost all the flak.

 

I believe some recommend it for the FDR as you tend to take more flak.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, gopher31 said:

In most CVs you should be avoiding almost all the flak.

 

I believe some recommend it for the FDR as you tend to take more flak.

In every CV someone gets hit by Flak now and then, but the costs for that skill are too high. For 1 point it would be considerable.

So it's more the benefit to cost relation is bad

[El2aZeR]

14 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

Why should i get the 4PT captain skill -25% damage from flaks? because there's a 100% you will get them when you attack 2 ships or a ship that is using DFAA. i'm using it. any good? any opinions?

 

If you're skilled at evading flak you won't need it. Even if you hit flak from time to time then, it won't cause enough damage for the skill to be worth it.

Flak can be evaded even at max saturation irrespective of how many ships are firing at you. The trick is to evade flak preemptively rather than reactively which can be done because flak behavior is static to the point where you can plan out attacks well in advance.

 

Exception is FdR as its planes have reduced maneuverability.

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

If you're skilled at evading flak you won't need it. Even if you hit flak from time to time then, it won't cause enough damage for the skill to be worth it.

Flak can be evaded even at max saturation irrespective of how many ships are firing at you. The trick is to evade flak preemptively rather than reactively which can be done because flak behavior is static to the point where you can plan out attacks well in advance.

@arquata2019 THIS!

...and remember it is a percentage - it is not gonna help much if you have flimsy planes. 

As useful as a speedflag on Colorado. 

 

The only one that profits from that skill is FDR,

- because it has tanky planes (percentage);
- because it is really slow;

- because you have to loiter for 30 secs;

- above means you will have more flak to avoid, because you are in it for longer time;

- because you have very large squads (will not fit between flak-clouds).

 

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 5/9/2021 at 9:21 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Steel Ocean was overall not better, but it had some very cool mechanics. For example the spotting was chaotic. The spotting was not just depending on a concealment value, but also a spooting value. So if a ship is seen depends on the spotted ship and the spotting ship

Large ships have good spooting, small ships have bad spotting

Large ships have bad concealment, small ships have good concealment

 

Lets take Yamato as example. The spotting is very large, the concleament low. If Yamato spots a ship in Steel Ocean depended on the ship she was spotting

For example with fictive values:

Yamato can see a Shimakaze at 7 km,  and a Mogami at 9 km

Shimakaze can see Yamato at 15km, and a Mogami at 8 km

Mogami can see Yamato at 16 km, and a Shimakaze 6 km

 

That system made it impossible to know, when you are acutally spotted, because the value, when you get spotted was very variable.

AFAIK spotting in WoWs is handled exactly like this, except for the spotting ranges for most ships are way larger than the visibility ranges of most ships.

A Minekaze for example can only see ships up to about 13 km, while a Fuso can see ships up to 28 km away. Of course only when either their visibility is larger or they are spotted by an allied ship that is within their visibility range.

Easy to see in game, as on the minimap there is an about 90° angle shown marking the Line Of Sight for your ship...

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

AFAIK spotting in WoWs is handled exactly like this, except for the spotting ranges for most ships are way larger than the visibility ranges of most ships.

A Minekaze for example can only see ships up to about 13 km, while a Fuso can see ships up to 28 km away. Of course only when either their visibility is larger or they are spotted by an allied ship that is within their visibility range.

Easy to see in game, as on the minimap there is an about 90° angle shown marking the Line Of Sight for your ship...

No, Warships has a view range and a concealment range, those are fix and independend. In Steel Ocean they calculated, if a ship is visible with view rand and concealment range together

That means a

Shima can be spotted by a Shima at 5.4 km

Shima would get spotted by Gearing at 5.6 km

Shima would get spotted by Gearing at 5.8 km

Shima would get spotted by a Cruiser at 6.5 km

Shima would get spotted by a small BB at 7km

Shima would get spotted by a large BB at 8 km

 

In WoWs the Shima is always spotted at 5.6km (it was 5.6km?). Translated into wows terms: The shimas (ships) concealment depends on the enemies ship height.

But acutally calling that conealment would be wrong. It's more like you calculate concleamnt * viewrange = visbility

Though the caluclation is not that simple, some factors are missing

 

So it differs, when someone gets spotted. It was impossible to know, when you get spotted in that game, you just noticed that, when people start shooting at you ^^

(or you were shooting)

But if a ship was spotted or not was differet from ship to ship

[Deckeru_Maiku]

15 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, Warships has a view range and a concealment range, those are fix and independend. In Steel Ocean they calculated, if a ship is visible with view rand and concealment range together

That means a

Shima can be spotted by a Shima at 5.4 km

Shima would get spotted by Gearing at 5.6 km

Shima would get spotted by Gearing at 5.8 km

Shima would get spotted by a Cruiser at 6.5 km

Shima would get spotted by a small BB at 7km

Shima would get spotted by a large BB at 8 km

 

In WoWs the Shima is always spotted at 5.6km (it was 5.6km?). Translated into wows terms: The shimas (ships) concealment depends on the enemies ship height.

But acutally calling that conealment would be wrong. It's more like you calculate concleamnt * viewrange = visbility

Though the caluclation is not that simple, some factors are missing

 

So it differs, when someone gets spotted. It was impossible to know, when you get spotted in that game, you just noticed that, when people start shooting at you ^^

(or you were shooting)

But if a ship was spotted or not was differet from ship to ship

The concept is the same in both games, only the detailed mechanics are different.. and seem to work in WoWs in the favour of the smaller ships which of course is more appealing for those favouring bigger ships..

[BLUB__BLUB]

25 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

The concept is the same in both games, only the detailed mechanics are different.. and seem to work in WoWs in the favour of the smaller ships which of course is more appealing for those favouring bigger ships..

@Pikkozoikum I'm also quite sure UNICUMS would be able to learn, remember and use those values too. 

It would not really matter, might even increase skill gap. As the usual pleb would not be able to remember that at all. 

[arquata2019_]

Alle 12/5/2021 alle 03:32, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

If you're skilled at evading flak you won't need it. Even if you hit flak from time to time then, it won't cause enough damage for the skill to be worth it.

Flak can be evaded even at max saturation irrespective of how many ships are firing at you. The trick is to evade flak preemptively rather than reactively which can be done because flak behavior is static to the point where you can plan out attacks well in advance.

 

Exception is FdR as its planes have reduced maneuverability.

So, (sorry for bothering people so much, but i don't understand the last part) if i start an attack, should i enter in a (for example) battleship AA range (5,8km)

And, if i reactively evade flak could i eat some of them eventually?

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, arquata2019 said:

So, (sorry for bothering people so much, but i don't understand the last part) if i start an attack, should i enter in a (for example) battleship AA range (5,8km)

And, if i reactively evade flak could i eat some of them eventually?

I know we should not make CV players play better... but... 

He explains it very clearly here how you can avoid FLAK. 

 

I can eve do it in FDR but the problem is, those squads are soooo large. 

If I go to the left I have to go A LOT to the left or the planes on the right side get it anyway. 

And the planes are slow - means it takes twice as long, and that also means you'll take twice as long to clear the FLAK,

so it also means you have twice the amount of flak - not counting the HUGE left/right movements. 

 

 

Also, I'd pre-drop a few bombers, because they'll get hit by FLAK on the way out as well. 
Dropping them means you can press F, and fly in again - if that Yammie is half dead, wel then yes take the full squad. 

 

Main thing: YOU steer the flak. It is not randomly farted in your direction. If you fly same speed, same direction: 100% hit.

It is calculated from your speed and direction. So, when the flak is FIRED that is after it was calculated.

If you change direction after it was calculated (and fired), which is BEFORE it appears, it will miss you completely.

 

It is not more difficult than avoiding torps from B0t-DDs. Just a bit faster. And if you compare it with that:

- most CVs are like light cruisers, they can an void those b0t-torps easily;

- some CVs are like a DD with speedboost... if they get hit... well... 

- FDR is like a Colorado.... yes it can take a few... but also... well you know. 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

The concept is the same in both games, only the detailed mechanics are different.. and seem to work in WoWs in the favour of the smaller ships which of course is more appealing for those favouring bigger ships..

But that's the point, the different mechanic makes it completly different. World of Warship is very controlled gameplay, while Steel Ocean was very chaotic and aggressive

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Main thing: YOU steer the flak. It is not randomly farted in your direction. If you fly same speed, same direction: 100% hit.

It is calculated from your speed and direction. So, when the flak is FIRED that is after it was calculated.

If you change direction after it was calculated (and fired), which is BEFORE it appears, it will miss you completely.

What's the interval between the spawning of two flak "walls"? 

[BLUB__BLUB]

36 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

What's the interval between the spawning of two flak "walls"? 

I think that depends per ship/tier. Maybe. Might also differ from captain skills or whatever.
But you will get a "rythm" for it, and then you can "swerve" the planes on that rythm.

Mostly it is about 1 "flakwall" per 2 seconds or something like that. BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM.

And then you are through, you are in the continuous-AA-bubble. 

Also, on ships with bad AA there is no "wall", it has open spaces where there is no "black cloud". 

Smaller squads can be squeezed through such openings, ships with better AA (or more ships together) give more flak.

This results in the "flak wall" being filled up. Some ships have more powerful black clouds than others, as well. 

 

DEF AA also results in "more powerful clouds" AKA they do more damage IF YOU HIT THEM.

Also the 'continuous AA' bubble gets stronger when Def AA is active. 

[arkashiks]

Press B for BalanS. Geez, I wish so much for FDR game designer(s) to get a bit rekt in his(their) life.

 

Full AA Ohio, plus DM and GK nearby, 180k AA damage, 42 planes destroyed, but still - 13 torps, 11 bombs and 5 fires from CV reached me. Wtf is that? Just dodge (c) WG? What exactly is the counterplay against FDR constantly zerg-rushing you whole game?

 

[geschlittert]

4 minutes ago, arkashiks said:

Press B for BalanS. I wish FDR game designer(s) to get a bit rekt in his(their) life.

 

Full AA Ohio, 180k AA damage, 42 planes destroyed, but still - 13 torps, 11 bombs and 5 fires from CV reached me. Wtf is that? Just dodge (c) WG?

 

Did you not have fun? See, you shot down some planes!

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, arkashiks said:

Press B for BalanS. Geez, I wish so much for FDR game designer(s) to get a bit rekt in his(their) life.

 

Full AA Ohio, plus DM and GK nearby, 180k AA damage, 42 planes destroyed, but still - 13 torps, 11 bombs and 5 fires from CV reached me. Wtf is that? Just dodge (c) WG? What exactly is the counterplay against FDR constantly zerg-rushing you whole game?

 

Replay? Otherwise it's hard to say, what the "counterplay" is ,because we don't know, if you did something wrong.

Though 180k dmg is a lot, oof

[159Hunter]

7 hours ago, arkashiks said:

Press B for BalanS. Geez, I wish so much for FDR game designer(s) to get a bit rekt in his(their) life.

 

Full AA Ohio, plus DM and GK nearby, 180k AA damage, 42 planes destroyed, but still - 13 torps, 11 bombs and 5 fires from CV reached me. Wtf is that? Just dodge (c) WG? What exactly is the counterplay against FDR constantly zerg-rushing you whole game?

 

Depending on the cpt kills and the upgrades, the hitpoints of his planes are about 3700 for an attack plane, 4200 for a torpbomber and 4500 for a divebomber.

If you would have killed all those planes on your own, you would have needed to do about 180200 damage ( so actually, the dmg done and planes killed are remarkably on point here, no "killsecuring planes ").

 

Now you were sailing around with 2 others around you, how many planes did they get?

 

PS: yes, this is a ridiculous damage you need to do to kill these planes.

 

[arkashiks]

@Pikkozoikum haven't saved replay. Question wasn't about that particular match, but in general - even if you give up on some other aspects and fully spec into AA defense - there is literally nothing you can do against FDR as he will still be able to kill you.

 

@159Hunter no idea about my other teammates, we were not in division - they were just nearby and I've seen them also using priority sector against planes...

[BLUB__BLUB]

16 minutes ago, arkashiks said:

@Pikkozoikum haven't saved replay. Question wasn't about that particular match, but in general - even if you give up on some other aspects and fully spec into AA defense - there is literally nothing you can do against FDR as he will still be able to kill you.

You received 13 torpedoes form FDR, that could be done in two drops. Each drop is 8 torps. And two floodings sounds explainable. 
Then you received 11 bombs. Could also have been 2 drops Each drop is 8 bombs. But 5 fires from that sounds quite severe. 

It would be almost 50% chance of a fire. I fact if those were two drops, then you got 3 fires forst drop and two fires on next.

 

You destroyed 5 rocketplanes, 21 bombers and 16 torpedo planes. 

Somehow you never took damage form the rocketplanes. 

21 bombers destroyed means he saved 2 (that dropped) and you shot 12 of the first flight out.
Then he'd be back with another 8, you shot 6, or something? He doesn't have any more... 

Similar thing for the torpedo bombers. You took most of them out.  

 

He got 50K damage from you off that lot. Seems you also got 35K damage from fires and floodings. All fires were from CV?

Seems kinda weird you got 5 fires from CV, and none from those 16 HE shells. Which seems a bit meagre (16 shells..?)

So, I imagine you were sitting at the rear with your 2 BB buddies, nobody else shooting you much except that one that shot 160 AP shells at you, doing 33K.

Minotaur I guess. Which you killed. 

 

If he only attacked YOU - and not your buddies, too - I'd say your AA works. 
He must have had no planes left at all,except some rocket planes.

That means you kept him busy all game, tanked ~90% of what he had to give, and did not die. 

 

Hmm... now imagine a Smolly (which is kinda toxic OP, too) sitting behind an island all game. 

How much damage would he do to you... and yes he would survive. 

 

The question is, if you got FIVE fires, would you not rather choose something like FPE.

Expert AA marksman (+1 FLAK-explosion...) is not gonna save you here. 

 

 

 

 

[arkashiks]

@BLUB__BLUB I was in A cap, pretty much whole game. Have FPR, don't have Dead Eye, close combat setup with full AA. 16 HE shells were from Thunderer on other side and only one fire from them (if i'm not mistaken). Rest from bombs.

 

Had that game AA gunner also, changed today it to Expert Marksman as turret traverse have probably more sense.

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Replay? Otherwise it's hard to say, what the "counterplay" is ,because we don't know, if you did something wrong.

Though 180k dmg is a lot, oof

Counterplay hahaha. You joker. I did 100k+ damage to an FDR last week and killed a whopping 15 bomber planes and 7 spotter/returdfighters. He hardly damaged me but his teammates had a blast hitting me constantly because of his spotting. So even when we 'counterplay' properly its pretty pointless in cases like these. O what was it you said last? What does damage even mean when its done by passive systems? What counterplay are you referring to this time? Hm? 

 

O wait, is it steering our BB into an FDR's torpedo attack planes? Or did you forget how WG made the FDR even more insane where it can turn it's planes 90 degrees on a dime? Yeah, that must be it. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, arkashiks said:

@BLUB__BLUB I was in A cap, pretty much whole game. Have FPR, don't have Dead Eye, close combat setup with full AA. 16 HE shells were from Thunderer on other side and only one fire from them (if i'm not mistaken). Rest from bombs.

Well, I guess that made you a "priority target" then. Sort of. 

 

That FDR (and I have it) is sort of like the Lolorado of CVs. Slow AF but sturdy planes.

Yes AA will work on them but mostly if you eat FLAK, which doesn't happen if CV knows what he is doing.
In this case - I am not sure if attacking 3 BBs that are near each other (even though they are in a cap) is the smartest. 

Then again, if you guys were parallel parked and he could throw torps from far away, hitting 2-3 ships, yes smart.

 

I'd say AA certainly works though. You survived, and seems to me you kept him busy all game, costing him all his planes.

Note that on a good drop from FDR, torps or bombs no matter, I'd get ~15-20K alpha damage.  

It would certainly not be hard on a parked up BB. So I am kinda confused what happened there.

Either your AA does work (and very good) or that CV was blundering? He was only attacking YOU?

Maybe because you burned so nicely?

But still, that many fires? I know that one FLAK-puff extra is not gonna save you from getting hit by FDR. 
Maybe invest some in fire prevention? Since I play FDR, I know I'm not that lucky, usually. 

But what I DO KNOW is that an Ohio would not be high on the list of tasty CV-snacks anyway. 

Yamato, Currywurst would come wayyy before that one. Conqkek and Thunderer too. 

And fires are pure RNG. Can be lessened by captain skills and all that. You'll survive longer/receive less damage.

Also, fires kill off the AA. You can press H to see the state of your AA. 

Getting AA skills is handy at the start. But might be that after a bunch of HE-hits and resulting fires,

you'd be better off to get fire prevention. I dunno for sure though ( but I will since I am grinding RP to get Ohio).
 

[Nibenay78]

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

Counterplay hahaha. You joker. I did 100k+ damage to an FDR last week and killed a whopping 15 bomber planes and 7 spotter/returdfighters. He hardly damaged me but his teammates had a blast hitting me constantly because of his spotting. So even when we 'counterplay' properly its pretty pointless in cases like these. O what was it you said last? What does damage even mean when its done by passive systems? What counterplay are you referring to this time? Hm? 

 

O wait, is it steering our BB into an FDR's torpedo attack planes? Or did you forget how WG made the FDR even more insane where it can turn it's planes 90 degrees on a dime? Yeah, that must be it. 

It's fun and engaging! You clearly forgot this.