General CV related discussions.

[BLUB__BLUB]

23 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But manual AA would balance a 1vs1, if a single ship can handle with all planes alone, that's a 1vs1 and the better player would win? ^^

Well, if WeeGee would want, it would not matter how many ships. 

They could just adjust the power depending how many ships are in range. 

As in, one ship = 100%, 2 ships = 150%, 3 ships = 175%... et cetera. 

 

23 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Btw, that's not true, that a CV has always the advantage. He can only decide for the attack via range advantage.
Yesterday, we had a match, our CV very early destroyed. In the End it was Moskwa+CV vs Yamato+Venezia

-Yamatao and Venezia kill Moskwa in the cap, though Yamato dies.

-Venezia moves into the cap, caps it, moves to the carrier and kills the carrier

The Venzia was able to fight with Yamatao the Moskwa, then taking caps, then turning around to the carrier and kill him as well xD

Well there's the  thing. That CV could/should have seen ages ago what was happening. 

Not spotted = not receiving shots. Easy to do in a CV. GTFO of spotting range, or hide behind an island.
You do not have to be able to shoot over it or peep around it like a cruiser. 

 

Sorry to say mate, but that was MAYBE bad luck/unexpected but MOST LIKELY just dumb. 

I only get my CV killed two ways:

1. my team is so tater, they leave one cap 100% open, and a DD gets through;

--> mind even then I'll usually notice and kill him... and any cruiser that follows as well;

2. It is the end of the game, everyone else is already dead. 

 

Some unusual exceptions, maybe:

- I was greedy and went too close;

- I was capping, and a bit dumb;

- Thought I could handle killing off the single ship, but a teammate ff-ed up and then I had two (or three). 

- Missed the ram.... 

- Enemy sent in 8-9-9 division and I missed it.... 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I had in my mind that skip bombing used timed fuzes and somehow I assumed it'd be here also.

My bad!

They detonate on impact on a SHIP (first, second, third bounce) or the third time they hit water. 

Mind they also have splash-damage, if they go off third time on the water and you are near, you still receive damage.

Not so much "timed fuse" as "counting-to-three fuse".

[Nibenay78]

11 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

They detonate on impact on a SHIP (first, second, third bounce) or the third time they hit water. 

Mind they also have splash-damage, if they go off third time on the water and you are near, you still receive damage.

Not so much "timed fuse" as "counting-to-three fuse".

Fancy. Can I haz anti-air missiles now?

[159Hunter]

5 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Fancy. Can I haz anti-air missiles now?

Be patient. Soviet CVs will enter someday.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Fancy. Can I haz anti-air missiles now?

Actually that is what FLAK is, a "timed" (height) exploding AA-projectile. So you have it already.
What you want is rockets like on Hood. And then probably the Russian (guided) version. 

[Miscommunication_dept]

Future support carriers....

 

 

[159Hunter]

35 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Future support carriers....

 

They will need to rework how XP is calculated. Else those CVs will gain very little XP 

[Kyorinn]

22.04.2021 saat 16:43'de, Pikkozoikum dedi:

Yes, that's why in other games is a matchmaker, who takes skill into account? You never heared people crying, because they got bad teammates in their team and it's unfair for them?

 

Would you say, it's fair, when you have to play football against one of the best football players in the world? xD

maybe just they are bad and they should stop complaining about their team at the first place 
just like most of the wows playerbase

[Pukovnik7]

2 hours ago, COMRADE_2019 said:

maybe just they are bad and they should stop complaining about their team at the first place 
 just like most of the wows playerbase

It is easy to say "stop complaining", but fact is that MM is crap. No matter whether we win or lose, I hate it when it is obvious from the start how the match will end. Playing a game with a predetermined outcome is simply boring, I would be playing COOP if I wanted that.

[Pikkozoikum]

8 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

I had in my mind that skip bombing used timed fuzes and somehow I assumed it'd be here also.

My bad!

You mean realisticly? Yes, they used time fused. In War Thunder you can see why. The bomb flips over the water, hits the ship and explodes in that moment, when the Plane is also above the ship and all the shrapnell parts hit the plane xD

But in Warships the skip bombs are very unrealistic, they move over a huge distance and bounce very high. It's just an arcade game mechanic^^

 

but I also assume, that the HE Bomb would not pen a ship, and rather hit the hull and sink to the ground.

[Pikkozoikum]

10 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, if WeeGee would want, it would not matter how many ships. 

They could just adjust the power depending how many ships are in range. 

As in, one ship = 100%, 2 ships = 150%, 3 ships = 175%... et cetera. 

Wasn't that in the game earlier? I think Wargaming removed it, or lets say, it was buggy and they never implemented it correclty

 

10 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well there's the  thing. That CV could/should have seen ages ago what was happening. 

Not spotted = not receiving shots. Easy to do in a CV. GTFO of spotting range, or hide behind an island.
You do not have to be able to shoot over it or peep around it like a cruiser. 

 

Sorry to say mate, but that was MAYBE bad luck/unexpected but MOST LIKELY just dumb. 

I only get my CV killed two ways:

1. my team is so tater, they leave one cap 100% open, and a DD gets through;

--> mind even then I'll usually notice and kill him... and any cruiser that follows as well;

2. It is the end of the game, everyone else is already dead. 

 

Some unusual exceptions, maybe:

- I was greedy and went too close;

- I was capping, and a bit dumb;

- Thought I could handle killing off the single ship, but a teammate ff-ed up and then I had two (or three). 

- Missed the ram.... 

- Enemy sent in 8-9-9 division and I missed it.... 

I didn't matter, what the CV would do, behind island or not, there was no time for him to kill him.

Also it doesn't make sense to say afterwards, what someone could have done better.

Do you always know at the moment, what is the best? I'm pretty sure, we could watch many of your replays and just say "That could be done better". Afterwards you always know it better ;)

It might seem obvious to stay behind an island, but we had 3 caps, 850 points and match time 1:30. I think there was no time to stay far away. I don't think there was any way for the CV to sink a maneuverable Venezia ^^

[Nibenay78]

10 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You mean realisticly? Yes, they used time fused. In War Thunder you can see why. The bomb flips over the water, hits the ship and explodes in that moment, when the Plane is also above the ship and all the shrapnell parts hit the plane xD

But in Warships the skip bombs are very unrealistic, they move over a huge distance and bounce very high. It's just an arcade game mechanic^^

 

but I also assume, that the HE Bomb would not pen a ship, and rather hit the hull and sink to the ground.

I'm good with just knowing how it works. I'd wager that even those who enjoys the "realistic" approach still doesn't want a simulator, and the casuals sure doesn't care :)

Mostly I wanted to post the screenshots  @Excavatus

 

@CptMinia I'm good if you shower me with coal, steel and researchpoints...

[Nibenay78]

17 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Actually that is what FLAK is, a "timed" (height) exploding AA-projectile. So you have it already.
What you want is rockets like on Hood. And then probably the Russian (guided) version. 

I want the 100% guided, 100% hitrate, one-shot-kills-squadon kind yes, just in case that was unclear in any way.

 

What we name it is irrelevant! 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

I want the 100% guided, 100% hitrate, one-shot-kills-squadon kind yes, just in case that was unclear in any way.

 

What we name it is irreelvant! 

I'm sorry there is no way WeeGee will install a catapult that throws Lenins into the air on your Mino. 
 

[Nibenay78]

50 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I'm sorry there is no way WeeGee will install a catapult that throws Lenins into the air on your Mino. 
 

It's probably a coming feature on some RU ship..

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 4/23/2021 at 4:07 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

But manual AA would balance a 1vs1, if a single ship can handle with all planes alone, that's a 1vs1 and the better player would win? ^^

So You want to have surface ship players have to manage steering, shooting main guns AND manually shoot at planes in a game, in which CV players can play automated CVs that douse fires, start fighter planes and whatnots like a good little bot and only have to look for setting their course properly and control the attakc/bomber planes?

Yeah, sure... in a 1 vs 1 that might (!) be managable...

But manual AA in a normal battle? I'd rather not have that, thank you very much...

[AndyHill]

The biggest problem with manual AA is that it doesn't do anything to change the fact that no matter how well you hit the planes it's still a question of how much damage the carrier does to you and the best you can hope for is to not take damage while your opponent doesn't take any damage either. Frankly I'd rather just not bother focusing on that kind of an interaction and I'm kind of happy that the AA does its thing on its own, while I concentrate on actually playing the game and fighting other boats.

[ghostbuster_]

2 hours ago, AndyHill said:

I'm kind of happy that the AA does its thing on its own, 

AA doesnt do jacksht. Thats the problem.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, AndyHill said:

The biggest problem with manual AA is that it doesn't do anything to change the fact that no matter how well you hit the planes it's still a question of how much damage the carrier does to you and the best you can hope for is to not take damage while your opponent doesn't take any damage either. Frankly I'd rather just not bother focusing on that kind of an interaction and I'm kind of happy that the AA does its thing on its own, while I concentrate on actually playing the game and fighting other boats.

There will be always an encoutner, where someone can't do damage in return... If you don't like these kind of design, you might not play any games with "classes", because in almost all games you will face such designs^^

For example a torpedo DD, he will always be able to torp enemies without taking damage. Only when he goes a risk or overextends you are able to shoot back

 

 

[AndyHill]

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There will be always an encoutner, where someone can't do damage in return... If you don't like these kind of design, you might not play any games with "classes", because in almost all games you will face such designs^^

For example a torpedo DD, he will always be able to torp enemies without taking damage. Only when he goes a risk or overextends you are able to shoot back

These encounters are very rare and usually result from moves made by you and your opponent. With carriers it's almost without exception one sided and by design.

 

Torp DD vs a battleship is the most common example and also a pretty good one. For example in 1v1 it was far from a done deal when a DD had to fight a BB for caps. The DD has to land torps (one of the least effective weapons in the game in general), since they usually can't take on a BB in a straight fight. In randoms T10 torp DDs typically do about half the damage of a T10 BB (without significant healing and not all of that is to BBs), so the absolute deletions are necessarily somewhat rare. Lastly, what do you think is the main reason BB AP's effect against DDs was massively nerfed some time ago?

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

These encounters are very rare and usually result from moves made by you and your opponent. With carriers it's almost without exception one sided and by design.

 

Torp DD vs a battleship is the most common example and also a pretty good one. For example in 1v1 it was far from a done deal when a DD had to fight a BB for caps. The DD has to land torps (one of the least effective weapons in the game in general), since they usually can't take on a BB in a straight fight. In randoms T10 torp DDs typically do about half the damage of a T10 BB (without significant healing and not all of that is to BBs), so the absolute deletions are necessarily somewhat rare.

As I said, if the torp DD makes a bad move, then you are able to shoot him. or if he takes a risk. But the DD decides, where he goes and he is the fastest surface ship. So if he get surprised, then it's because he went into a bad position.

 

And if it's about caps, then a BBs wins over a CV. We had that in the 1vs1 brawl, the BB capped and won by points, the CV couldn't do enough damage in that time.

 

11 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

what do you think is the main reason BB AP's effect against DDs was massively nerfed some time ago?

The main reason? Because DDs get spotted by other DDs and BB-AP does too much damage to a DD. But well, that is not relevant for this case.

 

 

It was about, that the best case for manual AA would be, that the Carrier does no damage and you can't do damage in return. Which is actually huge. You deny 100% damage of a carrier. And as I said, a torp DD can do damage with not return damage. Mostly you can only shoot a torp DD, because he takes some risk to perform something and he can take these risks often because of smokes etc.

 

Discussing about basic features of a carrier makes no sense anyways. A carrier is not supposed to be in close combat, you won't get any game, where the carrier is an artillery ship and gun fighting you. (Except you do funny GZ + smoke plays)

 

I mean, what do you want, that the carrier always starts 18km in front of you, while your AA kills all planes always? :P

 

 

 

[AndyHill]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As I said, if the torp DD makes a bad move, then you are able to shoot him. or if he takes a risk. But the DD decides, where he goes and he is the fastest surface ship. So if he get surprised, then it's because he went into a bad position.

(emphasis mine)

The entire game for all kinds of ships is all about balancing the risk/reward relationship. You get results by taking risks - which is good design in general - and the better you are at it, the better you do in the game. The worst possible position for a torp DD is somewhere where there is no risk involved. And again we can look at actual facts (from proships.ru, EU server last month results): 

- With the exception of Somers that beats Moskva and Nevsky, DDs are all at the bottom of the damage dealing department

- In survivability DDs tend to be towards the bottom of the spectrum with Somers and Småland being the only ones in the better half of the list

 

The myth of the untouchable lone ninja DD torping everything in full control of the situation is just that, a myth. DDs are a very powerful class of ships due to their cap and vision control, but they pay for that by low damage ability and very risky gameplay in general.

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And if it's about caps, then a BBs wins over a CV. We had that in the 1vs1 brawl, the BB capped and won by points, the CV couldn't do enough damage in that time.

Are there statistics for this - it could be really interesting? I only played carriers on the test server and didn't have much trouble with BBs.

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The main reason? Because DDs get spotted by other DDs and BB-AP does too much damage to a DD. But well, that is not relevant for this case.

It is absolutely relevant to this case. You brought up the DD to BB interaction as an example of one class being able to damage the other without taking any risks, but if you look at the actual statistics (damage and survival rates) as well as the implications of the BB AP vs DDs nerf, the actual reality is that at least before the nerf the interaction between those ships in most of the actual gaming situations was so lopsided in favor of the BBs that WG resorted to rather drastic measures to help the DDs. In reality, properly played DDs in normal gameplay situations got shot at and damaged by BBs so much that WG stepped in to help them. And as we all know, that is not the case at all in the interactions between CVs and other ships.

 

I don't really know what the situation is at the moment, it would be potentially interesting to see if you have relevant statistics from more modern era.

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It was about, that the best case for manual AA would be, that the Carrier does no damage and you can't do damage in return. Which is actually huge. You deny 100% damage of a carrier. 

Would you consider carriers a powerful unit if all they could do was to knock turrets and torp tubes out temporarily (and perhaps sometimes permanently)?

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And as I said, a torp DD can do damage with not return damage. Mostly you can only shoot a torp DD, because he takes some risk to perform something and he can take these risks often because of smokes etc.

As above, this is basically fantasy. DDs do the least damage and are typically the least survivable class. In reality they take more risks than any other class in order to be effective - and trying to do damage from stealth is actually usually not a very effective way to play them to begin with.

[Excavatus]

On 4/23/2021 at 7:25 PM, 159Hunter said:

@Excavatus what happened here man?

I've had the best teammates ever!!! as usual 

[Camperdown]

6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There will be always an encoutner, where someone can't do damage in return... If you don't like these kind of design, you might not play any games with "classes", because in almost all games you will face such designs^^

For example a torpedo DD, he will always be able to torp enemies without taking damage. Only when he goes a risk or overextends you are able to shoot back

 

 

I hunt torp DDs and they do get surprised by me. If you run no risk of being surprised, you are behind your fatties and thus are much less useful.

[Kyorinn]

25.04.2021 saat 00:12'de, Pukovnik7 dedi:

It is easy to say "stop complaining", but fact is that MM is crap. No matter whether we win or lose, I hate it when it is obvious from the start how the match will end. Playing a game with a predetermined outcome is simply boring, I would be playing COOP if I wanted that.

it is never obvious how a match would and dude if you are good enough there is always a chance to make a lost game victory 
except in some cases where it doesnt realy matters what you do but still lose cuz you already lost 10 ships
if you realy dont believe me here is an example:
all i had to do is farm the BB's untill i clear the flank and yes i got less base exp cuz farming bb's doesnt giving much base exp