General CV related discussions.

[geschlittert]

@Pikkozoikum Dude, appearantly everyone else agrees that you only talk crap, can you bugger off?

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Manual AAA would be so great. It would be huge fun. In Steel Ocean every ship had long range AA, for example 4 to 10. Then you could fire single shot or all together at one moment, then they had a "cool down" of a few seconds or reload

It needs to have same sort of risk as surface ships:

- do it correctly and you'll wreck the planes, like "citadel";

- screw it up and you'll be on the receiving end.

- for the CV it also needs to be harder. High risk, high reward. 

 

12 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But it would be also fun, because then people can't cry around because of "i'm helpless", then it's up to the player, to do something ^^

Nah, that is an illusion. People will always whine.

[Miragetank90]

 

[Kyorinn]

1 saat önce, Miragetank90 dedi:

 

thx for using my image love u guys <3

 

[Kyorinn]

11 saat önce, Pikkozoikum dedi:

There are no fair contests in this game. Even if the same ships fight against each other, then these ship might have different captains or different HP (one more damaged than the other ship)

so according to your logic having some skill is unfair aswell?
seems good 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, COMRADE_2019 said:

so according to your logic having some skill is unfair aswell?
seems good 

Best skill = having teammates that actually can breathe AND think at same time. 
Remember, dropping wheelchairs? You didn't have such teammates... Wooster --> BLAP...

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, COMRADE_2019 said:

so according to your logic having some skill is unfair aswell?
seems good 

Yes, that's why in other games is a matchmaker, who takes skill into account? You never heared people crying, because they got bad teammates in their team and it's unfair for them?

 

Would you say, it's fair, when you have to play football against one of the best football players in the world? xD

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

What planes are that?

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It needs to have same sort of risk as surface ships:

- do it correctly and you'll wreck the planes, like "citadel";

- screw it up and you'll be on the receiving end.

- for the CV it also needs to be harder. High risk, high reward. 

But what if CV and Surface ships does it correclty?
What if there are many ships doing it always correclty?

 

As a surface ship, players can play correctly, but they will still take damage. You could actally say, not taking damage can be wrong ^^

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, geschlittert said:

@Pikkozoikum Dude, appearantly everyone else agrees that you only talk crap, can you bugger off?

Only those, who are against Rework CV, they share one opinion mostly.  Most don't even bother to understand my statements, so rating that as "crap" is quite weird

[BLUB__BLUB]

15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But what if CV and Surface ships does it correclty?

If CV does it correctly, he'll lose less planes than when he goes potato. He gets a drop off. Maybe not 100%.
If surface ships does it correctly, he will mow down more planes. But not 100%. But he takes less damage. 

 

15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What if there are many ships doing it always correclty?

Then you get unicums. They will ALWAYS or mostly do it correctly. 

Mind, I can have some games where I do it all 100%, as I know how to, but usually there is something I screw up.

SO I will not be unicum - but some will be able to do it 100% all the time. They DESERVE to be unicum. 

 

15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As a surface ship, players can play correctly, but they will still take damage. You could actally say, not taking damage can be wrong ^^

That is the question. If a player manages to actually survive the AA, then he can still miss the drop.

Or maybe the surface ship can avoid the torps. Getting lucky or just making good moves. 

But would that be a problem, if there is no damage? He'd just be better. 

 

CV can go pick on another one. Just like I usually do when a DD refuses to budge. 

More trouble than it is worth --> go get the next best thing. 

Same in CVs as in surface ships. 

[El2aZeR]

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Most don't even bother to understand my statements, so rating that as "crap" is quite weird

 

We understand your blatant lies and useless opinion pieces that run contrary to proven facts just fine. It's just you who refuses to accept that.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

If CV does it correctly, he'll lose less planes than when he goes potato. He gets a drop off. Maybe not 100%.
If surface ships does it correctly, he will mow down more planes. But not 100%. But he takes less damage.  

But then the surface ship will complain "I did everything correctly and the CV gets a drop out". We have that now, a CV often gets one drop out

(Don't get me wrong, I think manual AA is a great idea, but this will happen, just like it happens now^^)

 

9 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Then you get unicums. They will ALWAYS or mostly do it correctly. 

Mind, I can have some games where I do it all 100%, as I know how to, but usually there is something I screw up.

SO I will not be unicum - but some will be able to do it 100% all the time. They DESERVE to be unicum. 

Well, what I mean: What if you get 2 players with above average Winrate, those mostly don't play bad and know how to use mechanics. They will know how to use AA. The thing is, when 1 ship is able to deny a CV just by skill, then we get a problem in a team game, where ships are often not alone.

Especially you have to think about the average/below average CV players

 

Well the only solution to that are multiple CVs in a match, because then CVs could go for 2vs2 or 2vs3 etc

 

13 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That is the question. If a player manages to actually survive the AA, then he can still miss the drop.

Or maybe the surface ship can avoid the torps. Getting lucky or just making good moves. 

But would that be a problem, if there is no damage? He'd just be better. 

Yes, it's a problem, because the CV is someone, who has to face alone an enemy. His squadron is not sharing his HP with surface ships. When surface ships play together, they share their HP (or they don't, depending on teamplay). But in a 3vs3 surface ship combat, all will probably take dmg.

A CV has his single squadron and no other one, who could take damage.

That means, if you make a 1vs1 encounter with a CV fair, where the skill determinds the result, then it becomes unfair, as soon people play as a group, because the CV has no team mates, that could share EXP (Except low tier, where we get multiple CVs, it woudl work there quite good, but we would need that for high tier as well)

 

it would end up with, low damage against single targets and no damage against multiple targets. Only bad single targets would be an option

 

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

CV can go pick on another one. Just like I usually do when a DD refuses to budge. 

More trouble than it is worth --> go get the next best thing. 

Same in CVs as in surface ships. 

Though the CV would get shred by solo AA DDs, if they know how to use the AA ^^

 

As I said, I think. if long range AA is made completly manual, then there has to be more changes, that CVs can play together against multiple ships. I would like that, but that are thoughts, that has to be done

[Miragetank90]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What planes are that?

 

Couldn't credit it before since I didn't know but Comrade_2019 may know, it's his gif 

Unfortunately I can't read Chinese, but it looks like it could be an Enty first pass and then Shokek, and the DD is either Akatsuki or Shiratsuyu with stock hulls. 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

stock hulls. 

Rip, I had the same, though I did 2 strikes. I was Shokaku vs Fubuki (T6) on stock hull with no captain hp skill xD

And sailing a straight line of course :3

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Only those, who are against Rework CV, they share one opinion mostly.  Most don't even bother to understand my statements, so rating that as "crap" is quite weird

Well, that is because your statements are all over the place. It literally depends on which page you are reading.

You don't even understand your own statements, so why should we even try to do so?

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

You don't even understand your own statements, so why should we even try to do so?

Um, okay? I understand my statements, so this is a pretty weird claim.

Could say the same. You don't know, what you are talking about.

Such type of "discussions" lead to nothing. I really dislike to go with fallacies and rather prefer to stay with the -statement- instead of discrediting the person and try to weaken those statements by doing that.

 

Many people don't read comments completly (sometimes I don't do that either), and instead of talking about the statement, people go with strawman and association fallacies. I'm of course not always right, nobody is that, but it's still the way, how you discuss something, and coming up with "what you say is crap" is not the way, or "you are lying", oof xD

 

Another thing is, that I even can go with facts, math etc, but those get mostly ignored and then evaded with another strawman ^^

[Cirno9999]

Found the Cv anthem xD

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Only those, who are against Rework CV, they share one opinion mostly.  Most don't even bother to understand my statements, so rating that as "crap" is quite weird

Its not that people dont understand your 'statements', a previously heared complaint from you, most of it is untargetted word vomit. What I dont understand is the patience some here have with it. Your 'math' and 'facts' are mostly fictional examples designed to serve. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But then the surface ship will complain "I did everything correctly and the CV gets a drop out". We have that now, a CV often gets one drop out

(Don't get me wrong, I think manual AA is a great idea, but this will happen, just like it happens now^^)

No, right now we have CVs that ALWAYS get one full drop, and usually MORE.

But whiners, t yes you always have those. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, what I mean: What if you get 2 players with above average Winrate, those mostly don't play bad and know how to use mechanics. They will know how to use AA. The thing is, when 1 ship is able to deny a CV just by skill, then we get a problem in a team game, where ships are often not alone.

Especially you have to think about the average/below average CV players

The thing would be, they would need to aim for different planes then. 
If they take the same plane, well, only one gets shot down.
And then the CV would be not so smart if he attacked multiple ships.

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well the only solution to that are multiple CVs in a match, because then CVs could go for 2vs2 or 2vs3 etc

Nope. More planes in a squadron. Start with three. Until it is balanced.

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, it's a problem, because the CV is someone, who has to face alone an enemy. His squadron is not sharing his HP with surface ships. When surface ships play together, they share their HP (or they don't, depending on teamplay). But in a 3vs3 surface ship combat, all will probably take dmg.

A CV has his single squadron and no other one, who could take damage.

That means, if you make a 1vs1 encounter with a CV fair, where the skill determinds the result, then it becomes unfair, as soon people play as a group, because the CV has no team mates, that could share EXP (Except low tier, where we get multiple CVs, it woudl work there quite good, but we would need that for high tier as well)

The CV does have teammates. It is just that he HIMSELF will not do the damage. 
Which is the same for surface ships. One spots, the other gets the damage. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

it would end up with, low damage against single targets and no damage against multiple targets. Only bad single targets would be an option

Wouldn't. But single, camping ships would indeed always be the preferrred target.

Or attack ships that are too busy to bother about their AA. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though the CV would get shred by solo AA DDs, if they know how to use the AA ^^

No, it would sort of remain the same - except the DD could have a coice if he REALLY wants to shoot down ONE attacking plane. 
And of course that woudl also mean that it would be less "left over AA" when you use manual. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As I said, I think. if long range AA is made completly manual, then there has to be more changes, that CVs can play together against multiple ships. I would like that, but that are thoughts, that has to be done

Completely manual would be too hard. It would mean nothing happens when you are too busy. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

No, right now we have CVs that ALWAYS get one full drop, and usually MORE.

But whiners, t yes you always have those. 

EDIT: I think we have different designs of manual AA in mind, that's why we have different views on it, probably. I'm Thinking more of the Steel Ocean AA

 

Just two matches ago I deleted a full squad. Yesterday I did that 2 times, Overall I do that quite frequently, not always, but it happnes, so always is wrong ;)

It depends on the ship, but a good AA ship makes 2 strikes almost impossible.

I mean, you might have to try DefAA+ AA spec for that, if you don't go for AA, you can't expect that.

And also keep in mind, just because a carrier gets a strike through, doesn't mean that he gets big hits as well.

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The thing would be, they would need to aim for different planes then. 
If they take the same plane, well, only one gets shot down.
And then the CV would be not so smart if he attacked multiple ships.

Depends on how you design that. It sounds like, you have something in mind, that you get only a single shot like a sniper^^

In Steel Ocean you had like 4-10 Flak explosions with 2-4s reload. So you could fire all the time, didn't matter if someone aims at the same plane or not, Explosions have mostly an area of effect

 

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Nope. More planes in a squadron. Start with three. Until it is balanced.

More planes wouldn't solve anything... Because single players would already be able to deny a CV only by AA. But this is a team game, thus the CV is always outnumbered.

If you want a fair 1vs1 against CVs, how is it fair, that the surface ship has other surface ships, but the CV not allied CVs for an attack? That makes no sense to me.

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The CV does have teammates. It is just that he HIMSELF will not do the damage. 
Which is the same for surface ships. One spots, the other gets the damage. 

That's not the point. And I don't know, how ot make the point clear.

 If you make CV "balanced" with the same value as a surface ships, then it also needs the same conditions like a surface ships.

 

If a single surface ship will get a fair balanced 1vs against a CV via manual AA

how is it fair, that a single surface ship can group, but the CV not?

 

1 CV vs 1 ship - fair encounter

1 CV vs 2 ships - unfair for CV

1 CV vs 3 ships - unfair for CV

1 CV vs 4 ships - unfair for CV

 

The CV has only the option of encounters, which are unfair for him, or fair. But there is no encounter, where he is in advantage. That's not how balancing works^^

It also needs:

 

2 CV vs 1 ship - unfair for surface ship

2 CV vs 2 ships - fair

2 CV vs 3 ships - unfair for CV

 

Hope that point is clear now^^

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Wouldn't. But single, camping ships would indeed always be the preferrred target.

Or attack ships that are too busy to bother about their AA. 

Don't say "wouldn't", if there is no argument following :P

If 1vs1 against a CV is fair, then the CV will suffer heavly in a team game, since he has no other CV mates for an attack. And as you said, only if people are bad players,

As I said, the high tier CVs are "alone" in terms of HP-sharing. But the surfaceships can multiply their AA.

 

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

No, it would sort of remain the same - except the DD could have a coice if he REALLY wants to shoot down ONE attacking plane. 
And of course that woudl also mean that it would be less "left over AA" when you use manual. 

Hm, you probably have a different design of manual AA in mind than me. Shooting single planes down sounds pretty weak, weaker than the current AA^^

 

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Completely manual would be too hard. It would mean nothing happens when you are too busy. 

You have short range and midrange :P I said "long range" ;)

[El2aZeR]

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I really dislike to go with fallacies

 

Joke and a half right there. So far every argument you brought was a fallacy.

[ghostbuster_]

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

2 CV vs 3 ships - unfair for CV

 

 and you expect us to take you serious...

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

12 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's not how balancing works^^

 

12 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's not the point. And I don't know, how ot make the point clear.

You have no idea how balancing works. That is why you have such a hard time explaining your ideas. 

[Pukovnik7]

12 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's not the point. And I don't know, how ot make the point clear.

 If you make CV "balanced" with the same value as a surface ships, then it also needs the same conditions like a surface ships.

 

If a single surface ship will get a fair balanced 1vs against a CV via manual AA

how is it fair, that a single surface ship can group, but the CV not?

 

1 CV vs 1 ship - fair encounter

1 CV vs 2 ships - unfair for CV

1 CV vs 3 ships - unfair for CV

1 CV vs 4 ships - unfair for CV

 

The CV has only the option of encounters, which are unfair for him, or fair. But there is no encounter, where he is in advantage. That's not how balancing works^^

It also needs:

 

2 CV vs 1 ship - unfair for surface ship

2 CV vs 2 ships - fair

2 CV vs 3 ships - unfair for CV

 

Hope that point is clear now^^

How does that work? Last time i checked, surface ships in WoWS have no cruise missiles. AAA is terrible, and carrier's planes regenerate. Overall:

1) All other ships in the game have to risk their health pool to deal damage. CV does not.

1.1) All other ships have only limited ability to regenerate damage. CV can completely regenerate plane losses.

2) All other ships in the game have to spend time getting into position. CV does not.

3) All other ships in the game are massively impacted by their positioning. CV is not.

4) All other ships in the game can be constrained by the terrain. CV cannot.

5) All other ships in the game can die to a misplay or accident. CV cannot, unless commander is an idiot.

 

And you are getting salty over surface ships gaining a single advantage? An advantage, at that, which makes the game frigging boring to play.

 

CVs are a cancer. The end.