General CV related discussions.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You probably even have no idea what the context was. So this comment is pretty pointless

 

You don't have to bother with quoting me in future, won't see them. Just a friendly hint ;)

Not for your eyes only mate. ^^

[Excavatus]

The only solution we need is, 

weaken the auto AA, 

and put manual AA option. make it an absolute monster. 

Like denying a full FDR squadron (If player can aim) at least for heavy AA ships. 

 

This way, do you want to deny a strike? turn your aim at the sky.. 

Do you want to keep shooting other ships? get rekt! 

This way players will have the option to be safe, %100 in some ships even.. 

and it will be under their control... 

 

Or.. we can always do, let CV lose HP with every plane loss.. 

forget about plane recovery.. give all the planes at the start.. 

and deduct CV HP with every dropped plane.. 

[Pukovnik7]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

The only solution we need is, 

weaken the auto AA, 

and put manual AA option. make it an absolute monster. 

Like denying a full FDR squadron (If player can aim) at least for heavy AA ships. 

 

This way, do you want to deny a strike? turn your aim at the sky.. 

Do you want to keep shooting other ships? get rekt! 

This way players will have the option to be safe, %100 in some ships even.. 

and it will be under their control... 

 

Or.. we can always do, let CV lose HP with every plane loss.. 

forget about plane recovery.. give all the planes at the start.. 

and deduct CV HP with every dropped plane.. 

I would actually like that - the first option, that is. It would make for a lot more interesting gameplay.

[BLUB__BLUB]

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You mean the RTS with a Surface-ship shooter?

Yes, they took a plane-game and "inserted" it. 

And then bodged the interactions.

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I had also the case, where the island gave them cover, because they turned by 90° and I couldn't see that until I approached them. So the island actually protected them.

Second time you know, first time it is a gamble. This is no different from when you spot a DD. 

You will have to gamble wheer he is and press the attack, when he goes visible then you know if he is straight or angled.

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I still see no context there in our discussion and also I don't see, that they took from game A into game B. They implemented a new gameplay. That's our basis.

IMO they shoved two different gameplays together.

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And that's, what I said earlier and tryed to explain. You can't take mechanics from Game A and put into into the Game B. The AA we got now is designed around the game design of the rework. The AA in RTS times were designed around the RTS game design.

The RTS game design worked different.

Different but the same. IMO all the stuff that they have "improved" could have been done in RTS as well.

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Nobody can avoid Flak, they will hit everyone, even the best. They just hit less. (In the last post I showed you a screenshot with a unicum, and he took flak, too with his 67% WR)

67%WR is not unicum at all in CVs. The only CVs that I take FLAK are Ark Royal and FDR.

The rest of them only if I screw up, which is why I am average - I screw up.

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, the good CV player has not to take care of it, instead the surface ships have to take care of the enemy CV. The interaction shifted towards attacker/defender instead of CV vs CV. That means a team is not completly reiable on the CV player. Which is way better.

The problem is probably, that most people, who complain about AA are Mino/DM mains, I can understand that, but as an IJN main, it's actually way better than before.

It is true that some people wil always complain. 

This is like, they want to take a ship that is invulnerable to something. 

Meanwhile they then complain about somebody else that takes a CV, which is indeed invulnerable. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

As I said, if you make manual AA and skill reliability, then a single player could easily outplay a CV, and then multiple player would be invincible. That means, that multiple CVs are actually needed, so multiple CVs can attack multiple ships(a group).

In fact you seem to agree with most on this, like @Excavatus. 

And it would not be THAT hard to fix it up. But hey, this is WeeGee. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I can only apply my experience over the last days/weeks/month. And as a surface ships I don't have as much issues, than with the RTS. Very often it's actually fun to outplay a CV.

That I agree on. You can now annoy the hell out of a CV, but only if he is no good, and you are somewhat good.

Or if he took the wrong CV and you took the right ship.... and have the right moment. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If I look at some RTS/Rework stats, some unicums dropped by 5% WR. So the influence seem lower

Some probably did. But some actually got even better. However WR does not say it all. 

You can no longer just block/kill/whack the other CV. But still the WR is not affected much. 

That DOES have an implication. Meanwhile the max score remains around the same. 

If you cannot kill the greatest influence anymore, but still it remains same --> it means CVs got more powerful.

 

Generally I find CVs easier to play. Mostly because of the interface, and less stutter/crashes/etc. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I often compare my gameplay with "how it was in RTS"

When I'm in a BB and take 10k dmg, then I remember how it was with RTS, when I would take 50k damage and a "double" perma flood and maybe a fire.

When I play a DD, while I'm perma spotted by a DB squad, getting crossdropped and my torpedos spotted

Even cruiser could get one shotted

In RTS we did play a Hood and a Sims at T7, and we were sort of immune to CV. 

He'd only try get us when he was all out of better targets. Because he'd lose a lot of planes which he'd not get back.

But when he did attack us, usually it was all over in one or two attacks. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But as I said, I think, we still need a minor rework.

I think we need a major brainchange for WeeGee. 

Sometimes I think, hey WeeGee, you have done something good there, you are getting better.

And just when I think that, then they come with the next crappy thing. 

 

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sure, there is a lot, that I would change at the CV, at the russian ships, IJN ships, Thunderer etc. But I just don't jump on the CV hate train ^^

Neither do I. I play 30%CV, 30% BB, 30% cruiser. The rest DD. 

However, CVs need to be improved - meanwhile there is no choice, we are stuck with them.

[HystericalAccuracy]

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

The only solution we need is, 

weaken the auto AA, 

and put manual AA option. make it an absolute monster. 

Like denying a full FDR squadron (If player can aim) at least for heavy AA ships. 

You have my vote 

optionally give back the "panic-effect" for pilots which makes their drop less accurate.

 

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

do you want to deny a strike? turn your aim at the sky.. 

Do you want to keep shooting other ships? get rekt! 

One more thing a DD-captain in the front-line has to do by himself  

Sure, make it more challenging  but give me also more rewards than to the lazy sniper 15km behind me.

 

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

let CV lose HP with every plane loss

please no, we have enough unrealistic gimmicks in the game.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

You have my vote 

optionally give back the "panic-effect" for pilots which makes their drop less accurate.

Wat is most perverted, the "automatic replace from above". 

In RTS, if you shot down a plane it left a GAP in the torps/bombs. 

A gap, where a DD could escape, and sometimes even a cruiser or a BB. 

 

...and now, damage gets done to the last plane. So:

The torp/bomb/rocket soup is always as dense (and accurate) as possible, if there is enough reserve. 

 

Make manual aim able to pick out ONE plane. Or a section. And leave the gap.  

 

[Excavatus]

5 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

Sure, make it more challenging  but give me also more rewards than to the lazy sniper 15km behind me.

XP calculation has to be reworked from scratch... current situation is not optimal for all ships. 

basically IMO, every ship has its own forumla.. one formula for all types cannot work.. 

It is like that famous "climbing a tree experiment"

 

Fish will always fail while monkey will always win. 

But we should do a swimming contest as well. 

[HystericalAccuracy]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

XP calculation has to be reworked from scratch... current situation is not optimal for all ships. 

First thing that comes to mind is:

XP-reward for capping zones was reduced - for DDs exclusively.

 

So DDs have to cap - and WG is incentivizing them by giving less rewards for that than any other class - aha 

[SV_Kompresor]

4 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

First thing that comes to mind is:

XP-reward for capping zones was reduced - for DDs exclusively.

 

So DDs have to cap - and WG is incentivizing them by giving less rewards for that than any other class - aha 

This ^

 

This is what 3 solo caps and 170k spotting damage (but 0 direct damage) looks like.

 

 

It used to be that if you got 3 solo caps, you were almost guaranteed to be in the top 3 on your team.

[HystericalAccuracy]

1 hour ago, SV_Kompresor said:

It used to be that if you got 3 solo caps, you were almost guaranteed to be in the top on your team.

Exactly what I tried out years ago with my (back then brand-new) Tashkent. I fired only 24 HE-shells to do some de-caps, netting me ca 8k dmg in total.

Aside from that I spotted, solo-capped thrice plus one assisted cap later to re-take a zone. Was probably the highest amount of XP I ever had with Tashkent (plus we won on points).

 

But nowadays it´s just do damidsch.

[Excavatus]

19 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

This is what 3 solo caps and 170k spotting damage (but 0 direct damage) looks like.

how about... hmms.. git gud!!??

 

Jokes aside.. I agree totally.. 

you can't put damage XP calculation with same weight for all classes.. 

or tanking, or capping, spotting.. 

 

you should make a base XP value for every action, then put modifiers for every ship type IMO.. 

 

given damage * %0,2 ==> then multiply this number with 1 for CVs, and DDs, 1.2for CLs & CAs, 1.5for BBs
Spooting damage * %0.5 ==> modifiers 1 for BBs and CVs, 1.3 for CAs, 1,5 for CLs, 2 for DDs. 
Capping, 2x cap points obtained on a succesful cap ==> 1 for BBs, 1.2 for CAs and CVs, 1.5 for CLs, 2 for DDs, 

for kill, each 1% of damage to given that ship x 2 ==> 1 for DDs, 1,2 for CVs, 1,5 for CLs&CAs, 2 for BBs.. 

 

something like that.. 

It can't be that hard to make it balance for every class If you ask me.. 

I've invented this out from the place where I sit on, without any data.. 

If I can have just 1 month of battle statistics from WG I can calculate a much bette XP calculation system.. 

If a noob like me can do it.. they should do it much much better and faster.. 

 

The only conclusion I have is then.. they don't want to.. because they think it is fair with the current system..

which can mean worse for all of us :) 

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, Excavatus said:

The only solution we need is, 

weaken the auto AA, 

and put manual AA option. make it an absolute monster. 

Like denying a full FDR squadron (If player can aim) at least for heavy AA ships. 

 

The problem is that the classes that need that the most are overworked already and would benefit the least, but the class that needs it the least has the spare time to use manual AA and would benefit the most.

 

Thus, to keep CV playable and short of nerfing them out of existance, this is another buff to WG's most favoured class and a nerf to everything else.

[Miscommunication_dept]

11 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

The problem is that the classes that need that the most are overworked already and would benefit the least, but the class that needs it the least has the spare time to use manual AA and would benefit the most.

 

Thus, to keep CV playable and short of nerfing them out of existance, this is another buff to WG's most favoured class and a nerf to everything else.

This exactly.

 

Destroyers will soon be hunting subs as well!!

[Nibenay78]

5 hours ago, Excavatus said:

This way, do you want to deny a strike? turn your aim at the sky..

Give it to me, I'll sail happily into my death from shells and torpedoes while making the planes burn like matches 

[Nibenay78]

2 hours ago, SV_Kompresor said:

This ^

 

This is what 3 solo caps and 170k spotting damage (but 0 direct damage) looks like.

 

 

It used to be that if you got 3 solo caps, you were almost guaranteed to be in the top 3 on your team.

 

And I suppose one doesn't get any xp for actually blocking a cap? Meaning two DDs (or anyone else, but its usually DDs that block..) can sit and actually block a cap for eachother, that could be essential for a win, but 0 spot and 0 damage = no reward?

 

But I'm sure a CV will drop by and bomb them on the way!

[Nibenay78]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Wat is most perverted, the "automatic replace from above". 

In RTS, if you shot down a plane it left a GAP in the torps/bombs. 

A gap, where a DD could escape, and sometimes even a cruiser or a BB. 

I liked this, it gave immediate effects from your defence. Now the effect is only at the end of the game (mostly)

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

XP calculation has to be reworked from scratch... current situation is not optimal for all ships. 

basically IMO, every ship has its own forumla.. one formula for all types cannot work.. 

It is like that famous "climbing a tree experiment"

 

Fish will always fail while monkey will always win. 

But we should do a swimming contest as well. 

Would be also nice, if we were able to see the score in battle.

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I liked this, it gave immediate effects from your defence. Now the effect is only at the end of the game (mostly)

It is even more greasily ff-d up. because it is like this:

- all damage gets accumulated on the LAST plane;

- so, even after maybe 3 strikes, you killed 4 planes (Kaga, FDR) but no effect AT ALL;

-... because he can still replace any plane that gets shot down as long he has reserve. 

 

THAT is the most annoying, when they implemented that, masterrr @El2aZeR had to explain me twice.

Because I could NOT BELIEVE IT they'd do such a thing. But they did. Not even "worse aim", nothing.

 

If the plane DOES get shot down (and DPS will not... it only affects the LAST plane, so it must be FLAK) then it gets replaced.

This means it is a simple "when does the battery run dry" calculation. Attack until you have no "green" planes. And then press F. 

Planes that you used to drop will get back to CV. How can you still run out? Well, you used "too much sponge". 

 

[Nibenay78]

14 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It is even more greasily ff-d up. because it is like this:

- all damage gets accumulated on the LAST plane;

- so, even after maybe 3 strikes, you killed 4 planes (Kaga, FDR) but no effect AT ALL;

-... because he can still replace any plane that gets shot down as long he has reserve. 

 

THAT is the most annoying, when they implemented that, masterrr @El2aZeR had to explain me twice.

Because I could NOT BELIEVE IT they'd do such a thing. But they did. Not even "worse aim", nothing.

 

If the plane DOES get shot down (and DPS will not... it only affects the LAST plane, so it must be FLAK) then it gets replaced.

This means it is a simple "when does the battery run dry" calculation. Attack until you have no "green" planes. And then press F. 

Planes that you used to drop will get back to CV. How can you still run out? Well, you used "too much sponge". 

 

In before @Pikkozoikum comes rambling how having to fly back with a new strike is a massive reduction in DPS...

 

No it's not worse than another posted that other ships can't fire all the time either... But the "deplaning" of the CV only comes late game. When there are few ships and little AA left anyways.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

In before @Pikkozoikum comes rambling how having to fly back with a new strike is a massive reduction in DPS...

Make a calculation, how much damage you would do, when AA is off in a anormal match and then a calculation with AA on. The best would be with AA heavy ships to see the difference more clearly.

I hope you know what DPM, or DPS means and how to calculate it

[Nibenay78]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Make a calculation, how much damage you would do, when AA is off in a anormal match and then a calculation with AA on. The best would be with AA heavy ships to see the difference more clearly.

I hope you know what DPM, or DPS means and how to calculate it

To make a quick approximation, I'll be dead fast or marginally slower 

I'm sure @El2aZeR can back me up on this one!

 

But after all since the CV can go everywhere from any angle, a little bit of marginal reduction is too much.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

In before @Pikkozoikum comes rambling how having to fly back with a new strike is a massive reduction in DPS...

Flying back IS a massive reduction. But so is 30secs waiting time... 

Then again getting blapped really is the ultimate DPS reduction.

 

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

No it's not worse than another posted that other ships can't fire all the time either... But the "deplaning" of the CV only comes late game. When there are few ships and little AA left anyways.

Exactly, it is comparable to a cruiser that KNOWS that when he shoots, he is spotted... 

...and as a result het gets pummeled by that red BB that he can see aiming for him already. 

And that cruiser might not survive, the CV can try again. 

 

But the deplaning only happens if you are stoooopid in the beginning. 

There's only a few CVs that have that problem anyway. FOR ME. And I am only savvy, not unicum. 

 

12 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

To make a quick approximation, I'll be dead fast or marginally slower 

I'm sure @El2aZeR can back me up on this one!

 

But after all since the CV can go everywhere from any angle, a little bit of marginal reduction is too much.

 

Just remember, 1/12th chance he takes a teammate out first instead of you... it's not so bad.

Spoiler

OK that was bad, eh. 

 

[El2aZeR]

34 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I'm sure @El2aZeR can back me up on this one!

 

Given that @Pikkozoikum constantly switches around his narrative along with a couple blatant lies sprinkled in here and there I doubt it helps much.

[Nibenay78]

19 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Just remember, 1/12th chance he takes a teammate out first instead of you... it's not so bad.

You mean 10/11th chance, since I have 10 teammates and 1 CV (and me).

But moments later it will be 9/10th...

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

You mean 10/11th chance, since I have 10 teammates and 1 CV (and me).

But moments later it will be 9/10th...

Yes that would be mathematically more correct. 

Of course you can increase that chance by running to sector A1...