General CV related discussions.

[KillStealBoss]

12 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

Can someone explain this "AA" thing to me? 

 

I played against an FdR yesterday. My Stats say I did 160K plane dmg and shot down 30 planes. I kept being bombed tough, so AA does not seem to protect from air strikes. I must be missing the "counter play" part. 

FDR bomber squadron has same hp as Moskva. So yeah.... Other CVs on T10 have half of that our even less. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Panzer_Guido said:

I played against an FdR yesterday.

Basically, FDR will strike you anyway, but the "cost" for him may vary. 
Mitigating damage will depend - can you turn, or does that mean FDRs BB-buddy will have your broadside?

If you can turn freely... then you can avoid. However... AA is quite overrated. It will not deny strikes. 
Not from any other CV either. It will just "make it more or less costly". 

[KayaYautja]

CV's in a 7vs7 ranked? Talk about stupendously unbalanced. How is that even a thing? Who thought that was a good idea?

 

Lets just say that CV's are balanced for 12vs12, which they're not, it's still a fuckton better. To then throw them into a 7vs7 setting? Well done WeeGee, edit*

 

edit: some bad and nasty vent removed! 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, KayaYautja said:

CV's in a 7vs7 ranked? Talk about stupendously unbalanced. How is that even a thing? Who thought that was a good idea?

 

Lets just say that CV's are balanced for 12vs12, which they're not, it's still a fuckton better. To then throw them into a 7vs7 setting? Well done WeeGee, you [edited]morons. Your game is crap enough as it is, then you go and do that? Talk about retarded.

Actually that is why I started grinding CVs. Everybody said they'd never do it, but I knew they would.

I mean, I was quite sure they would indeed throw them into Clan Battles... and... the Clan will need it...

So, after I bought Ark Royal (just for the T4 biplanes, LOL... and then faildiv it), I grinded them all. 

Because I knew.... yes they would indeed do it... yes they are nuts... LIKE THAT ---> 

 

...and I definitely agree with your opinion.  

[Panzer_Guido]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Basically, FDR will strike you anyway, but the "cost" for him may vary. 
Mitigating damage will depend - can you turn, or does that mean FDRs BB-buddy will have your broadside?

If you can turn freely... then you can avoid. However... AA is quite overrated. It will not deny strikes. 
Not from any other CV either. It will just "make it more or less costly". 

got it...I am not supposed to defend. Just sit it and take it like a good cruiser player nowadays. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, Panzer_Guido said:

got it...I am not supposed to defend. Just sit it and take it like a good cruiser player nowadays. 

As a cruiser? Any cruiser? well...

 

Defending.... well if you are a Mino and a Halland at once... or something. Co-operating... Maybe.

You can make it more costly and the CV wil go farm that fat Izumo, most likely. 

But if h wants you dead, you are dead. A matter of how hard you can make it for him. 

 

All you can do is mitigate damage, try to avoid what he has dropped. 
If that doesn't make you easy cannonfodder to his mates, that is. 

 

Some great captains can keep the CV busy long enough to save some teammates. 
Some even survive. But usually: nope. A few strikes, and you are dead. 

[WWDragon]

6 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

got it...I am not supposed to defend. Just sit it and take it like a good cruiser player nowadays. 

Proper use of fighter consumable.

 

Its funny, FDR have very obvious flaws were yes, large squadrons with RN style attacks yet the rocket planes are ... useless against DDs having a absurd windup time, short firing window and shotgun dispersion, squadrons not only have slow regeneration but also low number of planes on deck and for " kept being bombed" ... you mean when FDR attack timer have a 24 seconds lockout were all it can do is fly around and avoid AA? Midway would constant strike without waiting and thats not even before we talk about the speed of those planes ...

 

So yes, you can "counterplay" as much you can counterplay a IJN DD on a BB or any other of the completely fair and balanced interactions, FDR is a CV that can deal a lot of damage but it also have obvious flaws with the biggest one is that is unable to continue strike a target and their planes are completely wrecked by fighters, be it CAP or catapult.

 

[capt_and]

---

Is USS Enterprise coming back in the future???

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

fighter consumable is a joke as long as you have to ram the fighters before they begin the chase 

if they hunted inside the ships detection radius the consumable would be worth mentioning, but the way it is now its only worth mentioning in the case someone forgot to switch it for spotter planes 

[DeviousDave02]

25 minutes ago, capt_and said:

---

Is USS Enterprise coming back in the future???

Unlikely.

 

It's one of the Santa Crate money makers now so Wargambling is not gonna want to rock that golden boat and disrupt the precious cash flow.

 

Best you(we) can hope for is that we get another of the summer crate events giving you a better chance of RNGing it from a CV crate.

[Pikkozoikum]

14 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Only to give full broadside to the entire enemy team and taking massive damage there

Great advice...

Come on, don't be like that. If someone asks for advices, then this is the answer.

If you always take massive damage of an entire team as soon you are broadside, then you might play a different game than me.

 

You have to analyze the situation. If there are 3 BBs at 10 km, you might not turn full broadside. But if you are a DD, and only one BB at 18 km can fire at you, then you might turn broadside against the BB, instead of taking full dmg of a rocket squad.

 

So please... be real. I explained the general advice, it's up to the player, if he can go for a broad side of surface ships or broad side of a carrier.

 

What you come up with is very weird statement. It's like someone asks, "What can I do against Shimakaze torps" and I would say "You should try to maneuver into a gap" And now you come up with "And take full broad side of the entire team" ... that just makes no sense ^^

 

The question was, how to counter skip combers and not, "What shall I do, when an entire team is aiming is me and a CV approaches me as well"

 

[Pikkozoikum]

9 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

resident CV apologist

That's also a funny term. Feels like the "CV hater" invented that one, if they are out of arguments. What else are these terms good for? Not for a discussion. ^^

 

Especially I just gave a general advice, similar to "Angle against AP shells" xD

 

Actually it often feels more like there are CV hater, and others, but since others don't hate CV -> CV apologist xD

 

9 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

I just gave the same advice (...) SItuational, fitting my narrative :)

The difference is that there was a general question how to "counter", which got a general answer about the mechanic: Horizontal dispersion -> vertical maneuvering. This has nothing to do with your situational scenario

[BLUB__BLUB]

56 minutes ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said:

fighter consumable is a joke as long as you have to ram the fighters before they begin the chase 

They will kill a lot pof FDR planes. But indeed, it is not sufficient. 

Some strikes will get through. Because it has a sh.... load of planes. 

[WWDragon]

51 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

They will kill a lot pof FDR planes. But indeed, it is not sufficient. 

Some strikes will get through. Because it has a sh.... load of planes. 

It have 14 planes per squadron, 2 planes per attack run but they have a 103/118/127 restoration time and 23 planes on deck.

 

Midway is 9 planes per squadron, 3 per attack run, 14/18 planes on deck and 82/99/76 restoration time ...  fighters will hurt FDR because those planes wont come back, also because FDR planes have to loiter fighter planes are a easier counter as its unlikely the player is going to recall planes after 1st/2nd strike because ... well, that heavily impacts the ability to attack as Midway can recall as well carry several strikes at once.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

 

I just hope they change that some day. Only the C6N (stock torpedo bomber) was actually used to be a torpedo bomber. The rest are fighters/interceptors. Not the best choice for dive bombing or torpedo runs

[Bainsmit_steel]

I must note one odd thing which are probably noticed by now...to me it is not normal that Germany with paper CVS has more CVS then USN and IJN counterparts....

[BLUB__BLUB]

10 hours ago, WWDragon said:

It have 14 planes per squadron, 2 planes per attack run but they have a 103/118/127 restoration time and 23 planes on deck.

 

Midway is 9 planes per squadron, 3 per attack run, 14/18 planes on deck and 82/99/76 restoration time ...  fighters will hurt FDR because those planes wont come back, also because FDR planes have to loiter fighter planes are a easier counter as its unlikely the player is going to recall planes after 1st/2nd strike because ... well, that heavily impacts the ability to attack as Midway can recall as well carry several strikes at once.

All true, but the thing is - people want something that GUARANTEES they will not get hit. 

Instead, FDR is guaranteed to get at least 2 drops off.

 

Usually, like this:

- Fly out, find Halland/Mino/Wooster (hard to hit and lots AA), lose a few planes, get behind it;

- find a fat BB, bomb/torp him... lose half the squad;

- do it again after 30 secs and set a perma fire/flood. All planes dead but hey.
- then take out the others (if you had bombers, now use the torps). Same thing.

- fillers with rockets, they don't cut the cake but hey...

- Rinse, repeat... 

 

IMO indeed Midway is stronger. So is MvR. But it is not like they do not complain about those...

Hey man they even complain about Audacious... 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 minutes ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

I must note one odd thing which are probably noticed by now...to me it is not normal that Germany with paper CVS has more CVS then USN and IJN counterparts....

I know why. WeeGee was fed up with the rumours about them hating Germans. 

So they gave the Germans more CVs, then the players can hate them and presto:

Weegee don't have to do all the hating anymore. 

[Capra76]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

All true, but the thing is - people want something that GUARANTEES they will not get hit. 

 

Your post implies that there is something wrong with not wanting to be on the receiving end of a one way interation with a parasite class that has no place in the game.

 

Do you enjoy being bitten by mosquitos?

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

Your post implies that there is something wrong with not wanting to be on the receiving end of a one way interation with a parasite class that has no place in the game.

Yes does. That's however how the game works. Best things:

- blapping broadside cruisers with a BB, while undetected;

- devastate BBs/cruisers with a DD while remaining unspotted;

- pummeling DDs with a radarcruiser.

- shooting stuff from distance, hide-out or smoke, remaining unpunished...

 

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

Do you enjoy being bitten by mosquitos?

Nah, but I know how to avoid them - and I enjoy when I finally swat one. 

This game is not about picking a fair fight. As the bearded gnome says: "only an idiot picks a fair fight". 

 

However, your post implies that you would rather play chess or chequers, were it not that one filthy side gets to start first.

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes does. That's however how the game works. Best things:

- blapping broadside cruisers with a BB, while undetected;

- devastate BBs/cruisers with a DD while remaining unspotted;

- pummeling DDs with a radarcruiser.

- shooting stuff from distance, hide-out or smoke, remaining unpunished...

 

 

All of those have counter-plays, require those on the receiving end to make mistakes, require the other party to take risks, and form the core of the game.

 

None of the above applies to CV.

 

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Nah, but I know how to avoid them - and I enjoy when I finally swat one.

 

Aha, an active counterplay, something that's entirely absent from CV.

 

What the game instead offers is an insect repellent, of varying strengths, that may or may not be effective depending upon how much the mosquito wants to bite you.

 

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

This game is not about picking a fair fight. As the bearded gnome says: "only an idiot picks a fair fight". 

 

However, your post implies that you would rather play chess or chequers, were it not that one filthy side gets to start first. 

 

There's a world of difference between picking an unfair fight within a game, and having the unfairness built into the game where the fairness is entirely dependent upon the class.

 

Your point about chess is interesting, because in most games where there is an inherent unfairness the rules do their upmost to minimise it, the advantage being determined by the toss of a coin, multiple rounds of the game with the advantage alternating, the advantage being offset by a competing disadvantage and so on.

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

All of those have counter-plays, require those on the receiving end to make mistakes, require the other party to take risks, and form the core of the game.

 

None of the above applies to CV.

 

 

 

Aha, an active counterplay, something that's entirely absent from CV.

 

What the game instead offers is an insect repellent, of varying strengths, that may or may not be effective depending upon how much the mosquito wants to bite you.

 

 

 

There's a world of difference between picking an unfair fight within a game, and having the unfairness built into the game where the fairness is entirely dependent upon the class.

 

Your point about chess is interesting, because in most games where there is an inherent unfairness the rules do their upmost to minimise it, the advantage being determined by the toss of a coin, multiple rounds of the game with the advantage alternating, the advantage being offset by a competing disadvantage and so on.

It's not that there is no counterplay it's just that the counterplay required to deal with CVs gets in the way of positional play.

 

Grouping up into a lemming train makes any attack a CV makes on you  very costly. They will probably get their attack off but might lose an entire squadron. This will affect them later.

If you go for a strong position, the one where you can blap broadsides as the enemy  fleet angles against your own, A CV will spot you alone and attack.

 

I really don't how they can make the interaction more fun for the  surface ship as the dynamic is more predator-prey rather than two noble warriors duking it out.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

I must note one odd thing which are probably noticed by now...to me it is not normal that Germany with paper CVS has more CVS then USN and IJN counterparts....

Yes, wish there would be a Steel/Coal/RP T10 IJN CV, since I don't like Haku and I play mostly only IJN v_v

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

 

All of those have counter-plays, require those on the receiving end to make mistakes, require the other party to take risks, and form the core of the game.

 

None of the above applies to CV.

 

 

 

Aha, an active counterplay, something that's entirely absent from CV.

 

What the game instead offers is an insect repellent, of varying strengths, that may or may not be effective depending upon how much the mosquito wants to bite you.

 

 

 

There's a world of difference between picking an unfair fight within a game, and having the unfairness built into the game where the fairness is entirely dependent upon the class.

 

Your point about chess is interesting, because in most games where there is an inherent unfairness the rules do their upmost to minimise it, the advantage being determined by the toss of a coin, multiple rounds of the game with the advantage alternating, the advantage being offset by a competing disadvantage and so on.

The CV has the risk to lose dpm. No other ship has these kind of risks. Don't see the point of that. Not saying, WG should not work more on the CV (I think we need a minor rework), but pointing out specific features of a specific ship doesn't make sense.

It's like saying, that DDs have good concealment, or that BBs have strong alpha damage or huge HP pool. The feature of a CV is, that he uses planes.

Even though, what is the point of complaining about that? It rather needs improvements, so it would make more sense, if there is something wrong -> offer solutions. I did that a few times, though I'm a CV apologist anyways, Kappa

 

I think the most issue with CV is, that CV is one of those game designs, that are mostly disliked by many players. These game designs exist a lot in many games. There is the Artillery in WoT, There are even CVs in other games. There are snipers in shooter like CS or Battlefield. There are characters like Yuumi in LoL.

There is a specific design, that players often dislike, it even doesn't matter if it's balanced or not, it just feels unfair for the player itself

[arttuperkunas]

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Even though, what is the point of complaining about that? It rather needs improvements, so it would make more sense, if there is something wrong -> offer solutions. I did that a few times, though I'm a CV apologist anyways, Kappa

You think people havent offered solutions?

 

Maybe, just maybe people are bitter because solutions were offered, and then ignored? In what way has wg indicated they are interested in hearing of feedback or solutions for how cvs are implemented?