General CV related discussions.

[B051LjKo]

On 4/12/2021 at 10:26 AM, El2aZeR said:

How you even notice the difference between an AA built ship and a normal one is beyond me.

If you payed more attention to the game, instead of just constantly remining the whole world how great of a player you are, the only one in the whole universe capable of dodging even constant AA dps, you might notice the difference between non speced, and fully speced AA cruiser.

 

This is not written for you, but other mortals, as we are all aware that you can spend the whole game just circling one squadron above a blob of 7 minos without losing a single plane.

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MvR is dead, sure. Good thing other hilariously op options which are still left unchecked exist so who cares.

Well I do, if I did not care, I wouldn't have written that comment. MVR used to be a great CV that is not viable in competetive anymore. They went from OP to useless... unfortunatly.

Quote

Not sure what you expected to change.

Well I would like to see AA that affects accuracy of the incoming planes, as it did historically. Right now we are looking at mechanics that kills 7 planes with a single flak explosion. Never in the history of warfare did that happen. Just silly.

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I see even terrible CV players run around with viable strike wings all match long. I guess that puts your experience into perspective.

edited!

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They actually die just like before. AA has not changed much with the cpt skill rework.

Well, it kinda did! Except for you of course. You are just too good...

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As for your hopes for a buff, the newly announced high tier cruisers actually have AA values that rival pre-0.8.7 AA effectiveness at least in theory, so that's not happening.

This is not a hope, just a mere prediction of what will happen... You might wanna take that head out from time to time, and get a breath of fresh air, it changes perspective believe it or not. 

[El2aZeR]

24 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

You might wanna take that head out from time to time, and get a breath of fresh air, it changes perspective believe it or not. 

 

I suppose it is natural for someone who wants to believe their lack of results is due to ship capability rather than having to admit that they're just bad to be mad when others prove them wrong.

 

Have you ever considered that if you're bad, or as you put it a "mere mortal", then you simply don't deserve to perform as in any other ship?

[Deckeru_Maiku]

On 4/12/2021 at 2:40 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

I have no clue...

Finally a post by You that I can agree to. Atleast only to the quoted statement, of course

 

[POIfection]

Please stop putting 2 CVs per side .. the spreadsheet is wrong.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

8 minutes ago, POIfection said:

Please stop putting 2 CVs per side .. the spreadsheet is wrong.

Exactly... to raise the % of CV players in the game we should have 12 vs 12 CV battles... only.

[Pikkozoikum]

What I would change

---

I have a lot ideas, how I would change the CV and this gonna become a big post, so probably nobody will read it completly. Most ideas are independent and are not really supposed to work all together. Also I will refer to Steel Ocean a lot, because those games are same genre and I liked some mechanics from that game.

 

 

---

Manual AA

---

Implementing manual AA would be a tough task and I have two suggestions, how it could be done.

Manual-Barrage (burst) (1st idea)
Currently, when reinforcing the AA sector, there is also a 3% / 5% burst damage to the current total HP of the planes. This must go. Instead it could be replaced with one AA barrage, which is manually aimed. That means the player would have to aim the AA around every ~15 for one single barrage. That barrage strength depends on the AA stats. (The Damage of flak explosion and the number of explosions)

Manual-Long range AAA (2nd idea)
Similar to the AA of Steel Ocean, where the long range is manually aimed. Different ships had in Steel Ocean a different amount of guns. So some could fire 4 Flak in a row or simultaneously. Some had even over 10.
The player would have to spend all the time with AA firing and aiming, when a CV attacks, if he wants a 100% effenicy.
I don't think, it would be too much for even bad players, because when a player wants to avoide an air attacke, he has to look at the planes anyways. An alsmost every game has actually manual AA.
For real bad players we could also add a 20% hit chance for automated AA. Maybe a 1 point captain, that the manual AA gets disabled, to get the automated AA, or something that just gets selected in the port

 

What should it achieve?

Many complaints are about, that the CV interaction would be one-sided. One goal is, that it would mostly player skill to shoot planes down. If a player is too busy or has bad aim, he will suffer. If a player is good, he will get more kills.

The second goal is fun. Using guns manually is always fun, shooting flak is huge fun.
 

---

Main guns instead of Secondaries

---

I will refer a lot to Steel Ocean, even if this game is overall worse than wows, doesn't mean, there are not some good ideas. Secondaries are manual in Steel Ocean and it's so much fund to fire guns with a Submarine or a CV. Thus the secondaries of a CV should be changed to main guns. Those would be mostly like DD guns, but to balance it, they could have longer reload, and/or more dispersion.

 

What should it achieve?
Similar to the manuall AA, it's mostly the fun aspect. Though it's also about the appreciation to the CV hull, that this gets more used.

 

---

Smoke shells

---

I never really liked the idea of the Fighter patrol over the CV. I would maybe go with a different idea. Maybe that the CV can fire smoke shells, similar to a smoke screen, but on a small range (maybe 2 km fire range) and only a small area.
Without fighter protection, the CV might go more with the back-line fleet for AA protection, and has the option to hide in a smoke.
There are even more option, that he could smoke team mates.

 

What should it achieve?

It would remove the fighters and another CV could easier strike the enemy CV. It should also encourage the CV to play more around positioning.
 

---

Reconnaissance Aircraft

---

I had once a more detailed proposal for this and I still like the idea, because it adds a lot to the game. But it's hard to understand, if not fully read. The idea is not just to remove spotting from striking, but also put the Aircraft carrier more into the soft-"paper-rock-scissor" design.

• Remove Team-spotting from Strike planes
• Reduce the deck number of strike planes about ~35%
• Add reconnaissance aircrafts
  • Single planes per squadron
  • Three squadrons (thus 3 planes) on deck
  • Low HP (~1500)
  • Is able to teamspot but also has an attack-design
  • Starting the attack sets the aircraft into an observation flight

Observation flight
It's similar to an Torpedo attack or level bombing. The aircraft increases altitude and the player gets a binocular interface, where he can mark a single target. Targeting a ship in this mode annouces that target to all teammates, The anoucement is visual and sound-wise. Shooting on this target also gets a dispersion-buff (~10-20%), so the team mates can fire more accurate on it.

With this design, the Aircraft has less strike power. If he strikes, he won't spot. When he spots, he won't strike. Thus a surface ship can focus on the CV more easily.
Also the DDs and CLs are hard-counters to reconnaissance aircrafts, because they have so low HP and those ships are very good concealed.
This design would solve so many problem
The spotting is a very team-orientated design, but would also reward the CV player a lot. When observing, the damage done to this target should be additionaly added to the CV damage counter, thus he does also "damage" and not only team spotting.

 

Summary
-DD and CL are counter ships to reconnaissance aircrafts
-More complex and fun spotting mechanic
-Less strike damage from the CV, while CV keeps high damage duo spotter
-Surface ships can focus on CV attacks, since they can't spot for team

 

What should it achieve?

More complex gameplay for CV, more decision making. More counterplay and also not "doing all at once" gameplay (striking and spotting). More fun with spotting.
 

---

Fuel

---

I actually like the idea, that a CV needs a good positioning. I overall want more involvment of the hull and I think, that the fuel could add this. (BTW Steel Ocean had fuel as well)

 

What should it achieve?

Positioning is more important and reducing the influence range of a Carrier.

 

 

---

Selection of Aircraft models (remove stock->upgrade system)

---

This seems not important, but for some people like me, it's extremly important. Many aircraft choices are very bad. Two exmaples are the D3A1 and J5N. The D3A is in this game a stock plane. The D3A is one of the most iconic dive bombers, and it's wasted as a stock plane... I have no words for this.
The J5N is a twin-engine fighter, that never started from a CV, but in this game a torpedo and dive bomber.
The issue is, many good models are wasted, because we have this stock->upgrade design. We need to get rid of this or change it to stock armament -> upgraded armament.
Then we get a lot good plane models. Please ;_;

 

 

 

---

Motor Boost

---

I personally would prefer, if there would be no Motor boost Refill-Consumable and also that the Motor Engine doesn't regenerate. That means there is only a limited resource of Motorboost. A CV can decide to use it for cruising, or saving it for the battle. This would also take away some impact, because the CV would be slower.

Addtionally it's more realistic. Planes didn't fly all the time with max speed.

 

• Remove the consumable
• Remove the regeneration of boost engine

[Nadrick]

A'hoy lads, breaking in with a quick reminder to keep this discussion thread civil and constructive. Remember, it's very possible to discuss and express yourself and your opinion, without being personal. 

 

Smooth seas! 

-Moxy

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Immoxb said:

A'hoy lads, breaking in with a quick reminder to keep this discussion thread civil and constructive. Remember, it's very possible to discuss and express yourself and your opinion, without being personal. 

 

Smooth seas! 

-Moxy

 

 

Are You a New Mod ?

Never Seen You before :)

 

No Offense Intended. Just Curious.

[B051LjKo]

14 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I suppose it is natural for someone who wants to believe their lack of results is due to ship capability rather than having to admit that they're just bad to be mad when others prove them wrong.

 

Will you for one in your life story acing like a complete edited* and at least try to have a constructive conversation on the subject. Whether I suck or not is completely irrelevant for the subject.  

 

Quote

 

Have you ever considered that if you're bad, or as you put it a "mere mortal", then you simply don't deserve to perform as in any other ship?

 

I am really bad, sub 30% win rate, horrible CV player that averages 10K of damage. Happy now? Stick to the facts and at at least try to edited*, at least from time to time.

 

edited: please refrain from insults

[Excavatus]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Are You a New Mod ?

Never Seen You before :)

 

No Offense Intended. Just Curious.

No he is the silent one! 
silent but deadly... 

 

PS: all the fart jokes will be perma banned! 

[Miscommunication_dept]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

 

Will you for one in your life story acing like a complete edited* and at least try to have a constructive conversation on the subject. Whether I suck or not is completely irrelevant for the subject.  

 

 

I am really bad, sub 30% win rate, horrible CV player that averages 10K of damage. Happy now? Stick to the facts and at at least try to edited*, at least from time to time.

 

edited: please refrain from insults

 

Look at the post two above yours

[Nibenay78]

5 hours ago, Immoxb said:

... constructive. ...

 

Smooth seas! 

-Moxy

 

You mean contructive like WG will actually listen and implement our suggestions and take our criticism to heart? Great!

 

Oh wait, what did I just say? I forgot to take my realism pill today obviously. Nevermind me!

[1MajorKoenig]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This seems not important, but for some people like me, it's extremly important. Many aircraft choices are very bad. Two exmaples are the D3A1 and J5N. The D3A is in this game a stock plane. The D3A is one of the most iconic dive bombers, and it's wasted as a stock plane... I have no words for this.

Agree. Although for the time being there is a good mod by @Smeggo which does that for Kaga. Feels much more Pearl-Habourish

 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Main guns instead of Secondaries

Would be fun for the lulz and especially interesting with the fuel suggestion. Could make for a little more active usage of the hulls.

 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Reconnaissance Aircraft

I liked it but I still prefer implementing “CLOUDS” which would break line of sight. Gives a lot of options to play with aircraft spotting by setting different cloud coverage. Clear, 2/8, 4/8, 6/8, overcast (8/8 could be a tad weird though). 
 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

What I would change

---

I have a lot ideas, how I would change the CV and this gonna become a big post, so probably nobody will read it completly. Most ideas are independent and are not really supposed to work all together. Also I will refer to Steel Ocean a lot, because those games are same genre and I liked some mechanics from that game.

 

 

---

Manual AA

---

Implementing manual AA would be a tough task and I have two suggestions, how it could be done.

Manual-Barrage (burst)
Currently, when reinforcing the AA sector, there is also a 3% / 5% burst damage to the current total HP of the planes. This must go. Instead it could be replaced with one AA barrage, which is manually aimed. That means the player would have to aim the AA around every ~15 for one single barrage. That barrage strength depends on the AA stats. (The Damage of flak explosion and the number of explosions)

Manual-Long range AAA
Similar to the AA of Steel Ocean, where the long range is manually aimed. Different ships had in Steel Ocean a different amount of guns. So some could fire 4 Flak in a row or simultaneously. Some had even over 10.
The player would have to spend all the time with AA firing and aiming, when a CV attacks, if he wants a 100% effenicy.
I don't think, it would be too much for even bad players, because when a player wants to avoide an air attacke, he has to look at the planes anyways. An alsmost every game has actually manual AA.
For real bad players we could also add a 20% hit chance for automated AA. Maybe a 1 point captain, that the manual AA gets disabled, to get the automated AA, or something that just gets selected in the port

 

What should it achieve?

Many complaints are about, that the CV interaction would be one-sided. One goal is, that it would mostly player skill to shoot planes down. If a player is too busy or has bad aim, he will suffer. If a player is good, he will get more kills.

The second goal is fun. Using guns manually is always fun, shooting flak is huge fun.
 

---

Main guns instead of Secondaries

---

I will refer a lot to Steel Ocean, even if this game is overall worse than wows, doesn't mean, there are not some good ideas. Secondaries are manual in Steel Ocean and it's so much fund to fire guns with a Submarine or a CV. Thus the secondaries of a CV should be changed to main guns. Those would be mostly like DD guns, but to balance it, they could have longer reload, and/or more dispersion.

 

What should it achieve?
Similar to the manuall AA, it's mostly the fun aspect. Though it's also about the appreciation to the CV hull, that this gets more used.

 

---

Smoke shells

---

I never really liked the idea of the Fighter patrol over the CV. I would maybe go with a different idea. Maybe that the CV can fire smoke shells, similar to a smoke screen, but on a small range (maybe 2 km fire range) and only a small area.
Without fighter protection, the CV might go more with the back-line fleet for AA protection, and has the option to hide in a smoke.
There are even more option, that he could smoke team mates.

 

What should it achieve?

It would remove the fighters and another CV could easier strike the enemy CV. It should also encourage the CV to play more around positioning.
 

---

Reconnaissance Aircraft

---

I had once a more detailed proposal for this and I still like the idea, because it adds a lot to the game. But it's hard to understand, if not fully read. The idea is not just to remove spotting from striking, but also put the Aircraft carrier more into the soft-"paper-rock-scissor" design.

• Remove Team-spotting from Strike planes
• Reduce the deck number of strike planes about ~35%
• Add reconnaissance aircrafts
  • Single planes per squadron
  • Three squadrons (thus 3 planes) on deck
  • Low HP (~1500)
  • Is able to teamspot but also has an attack-design
  • Starting the attack sets the aircraft into an observation flight

Observation flight
It's similar to an Torpedo attack or level bombing. The planes increase altitude and the player gets a binocular interface, where he can mark a single target. This gets annouced for all teammates, that this is primary target with a sound indication. This target also gets a dispersion-debuff (~10-20%), so the team mates can fire more accurate on it.

With this design, the Aircraft has less strike power. If he strikes, he won't spot. When he spots, he won't strike. Thus a surface ship can focus on the CV more easily.
Also the DDs and CLs are hard-counters to reconnaissance aircrafts, because they have so low HP and those ships are very good concealed.
This design would solve so many problem
The spotting is a very team-orientated design, but would also reward the CV player a lot. When observing, the damage done to this target should be additionaly added to the CV damage counter, thus he does also "damage" and not only team spotting.

Summary
-DD and CL are counter ships to reconnaissance aircrafts
-More complex and fun spotting mechanic
-Less strike damage from the CV, while CV keeps high damage duo spotter
-Surface ships can focus on CV attacks, since they can't spot for team

 

What should it achieve?

More complex gameplay for CV, more decision making. More counterplay and also not "doing all at once" gameplay (striking and spotting). More fun with spotting.
 

---

Fuel

---

I actually like the idea, that a CV needs a good positioning. I overall want more involvment of the hull and I think, that the fuel could add this. (BTW Steel Ocean had fuel as well)

 

In General I would appreciate something like this. Would need to be fleshed out but it could potentially make positioning a little more interesting and add a tiny bit of depth 

 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Implementing manual AA would be a tough task and I have two suggestions, how it could be done.

Basically yes. It would need an automatic mode which would do the base work for those not willing to fire the guns themselves and a manually controlled mode which gives a bit of a bonus for focusing the attention there.

 

And to add to this: they should change the fighters to make them more “natural”:

 

 

[Pukovnik7]

Personally, I think the greatest problem with CVs is that they have a counterplay against literally every ship in the game:

• torpedoes, bombs and rockets against battleships
• bombs, rockets and torpedoes against cruisers
• rockets and bombs against destroyers

They are a world unto themselves and have no need to cooperate with other ships to be effective. But look at Enterprise's air group:

http://www.cv6.org/company/airgroups.htm

 

No rocket planes. Now, it is true that rockets were eventually introduced to carrier aircraft as well, but it was only in 1943. and 1944.:

• FFAR, introduced 1943, anti-submarine rocket
• HVAR, introduced 1944, general anti-ship rocket

M8 was introduced in 1941., but only for USAAF aircraft.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

5 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Stick to the facts

 

I did. Your struggles, and anyone else's in extension, with CV play are entirely a product of your own skill and choices given that the performance of others proves that it is possible to do much better.

Thus there is nothing else to say other than git gud.

[LABRAT_1UK]

Wots the new coal  CV like to play ?

[Miscommunication_dept]

It seems only CCs are able to talk about it so far. Try Reimu bakarei on YouTube.

 

https://thedailybounce.net/world-of-warships/final-review-tier-x-freemium-german-aircraft-carrier-max-immelmann/

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Personally, I think the greatest problem with CVs is that they have a counterplay against literally every ship in the game:

• torpedoes, bombs and rockets against battleships
• bombs, rockets and torpedoes against cruisers
• rockets and bombs against destroyers

Though MvR has AP rockets and AP bombs. ^^

 

6 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

 

No rocket planes. Now, it is true that rockets were eventually introduced to carrier aircraft as well, but it was only in 1943. and 1944.:

• FFAR, introduced 1943, anti-submarine rocket
• HVAR, introduced 1944, general anti-ship rocket

M8 was introduced in 1941., but only for USAAF aircraft.

It's an arcade game. PvP mechanics and design overweigthts realism and historically correctness. For Example the Hakuryu launches J5N as torpedo and dive bomber. The J5N was irl a twin engine fighter, which never launched from carriers and had only max 250kg bomb load, not 800kg or a torpedo

[BLUB__BLUB]

20 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

30% is only 50% of the total damage of your 100% which now is down to 40% because of the %-age of incoming crap your way from everyone else.

True. Especially with CVs like FDR, it is usually not the CV killing the DD. 

I often get some "incapacitation" (yes RNGesus hates me) but the result is the same: DD is dead. 

No points for me, only wasted time and an incapacitation (well, hurray). 

 

This is also why I am in favour of "no spotting except minimap". 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

True. Especially with CVs like FDR, it is usually not the CV killing the DD. 

I often get some "incapacitation" (yes RNGesus hates me) but the result is the same: DD is dead. 

No points for me, only wasted time and an incapacitation (well, hurray). 

 

This is also why I am in favour of "no spotting except minimap". 

 

You might read my suggestion about spotting. DDs and CLs would be coutner-ship against spotting in this proposal ^^

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You might read my suggestion about spotting. DDs and CLs would be coutner-ship against spotting in this proposal ^^

I think it would be considered "too complicated" by WeeGee. 

But, I think most CV players will agree the spotting is a large part of the problem. 

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, BLUB__BLUB said:

I think it would be considered "too complicated" by WeeGee. 

But, I think most CV players will agree the spotting is a large part of the problem. 

Sadly yes, though it's actually not complicate once understood^^

I mean we get now skip bombers, a new aircraft / attack type, Adding that is not too complicated?^^

[Pukovnik7]

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's an arcade game. PvP mechanics and design overweigthts realism and historically correctness. For Example the Hakuryu launches J5N as torpedo and dive bomber. The J5N was irl a twin engine fighter, which never launched from carriers and had only max 250kg bomb load, not 800kg or a torpedo

I know. But still, spotting and rocket planes are the greatest carrier-borne danger to destroyers. Now, spotting cannot be removed - you could remove carriers themselves that way - though maybe it could be changed? So that instead of showing exact position of a ship, when a carrier spots a destroyer its teammates get a report of "DD at C7" or something like that.

 

But rockets are a problem, unless CV player is a n00b.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Pukovnik7 said:

I know. But still, spotting and rocket planes are the greatest carrier-borne danger to destroyers. Now, spotting cannot be removed - you could remove carriers themselves that way - though maybe it could be changed? So that instead of showing exact position of a ship, when a carrier spots a destroyer its teammates get a report of "DD at C7" or something like that.

Some have AP rockets though. They'll only get lots of overpens. 

But yes the teammates will spam the DD to death. Less spotting would be good. 
Say minimap only except if the teammate is within "firing-spotting-distance", AKA in reach of the DD. 

 

1 minute ago, Pukovnik7 said:

But rockets are a problem, unless CV player is a n00b.

Not really. Mostly the aiming time of rockets is longer than the spotting distance.

If the DD turns the AA off, the CV will spot him too late to use the rockets. 

He has to turn around, pre-gamble, and then try get a shot out. 

 

Also, there's FDR. It has 54 rockets, all launched in one go. Sure you'll hit something... usually.

However... what/if/how many you hit is RNG, it will take a parked-up cluster of 3 BBs to hit them all. 

It is more like "farting in the general direction". Same way, it has 8 bombs... 

But usually, FDR will just keep you spotted until you are dead-by-teammates.

[Pukovnik7]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Some have AP rockets though. They'll only get lots of overpens. 

But yes the teammates will spam the DD to death. Less spotting would be good. 
Say minimap only except if the teammate is within "firing-spotting-distance", AKA in reach of the DD. 

I was thinking more along the lines of minimap only, period. So if you want to shoot at the enemy, you can either get into visual range yourself or else shoot by minimap.

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Not really. Mostly the aiming time of rockets is longer than the spotting distance.

 If the DD turns the AA off, the CV will spot him too late to use the rockets. 

 He has to turn around, pre-gamble, and then try get a shot out. 

That only works if CV is the only threat (and in such a case, can be very effective at keeping the CV occupied and out of the game). But as a gunboat destroyer I have to keep enemy destroyers busy or dead to stop them from slaughtering or just permaspotting battleships and cruisers, in which case there is no point in turning off the AA as I am permaspotted anyway by the torpedo DD I am in the process of taking apart. In that case, last-second maneuver is literally my only option - but that only works against bombs and torpedoes.