General CV related discussions.

[El2aZeR]

44 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I wouldn't go with theoretical values, where a CV does 20k+ dmg with every strike always. Pretty unrealistic.

 

Except I am basing that off of playing experience, aka reality.

With which your entire pathetic narrative falls apart.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It very often feels like, that you just don't undestand me or go with something complete different.

To be fair, most of your posts are often theoretical excursions in what you want to be true. ^^

[AndyHill]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh what? Nobody decides to have an accident. I mean, sure, some dds try to find other DDs to gun them down. But that's not the point

You literally just said it yourself:

On 4/10/2021 at 6:49 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

If you remove CV, you get DD with most flexibility and those will mostly decide the engagement, if they don't run accidently into each other, but even then, they decided to do that.

And that's actually exactly the point. When DDs or any other surface ship is the best spotting platform, they take risks to get those spots and compete for it. They don't choose to have an accident, they choose to take a risk to get a reward and evaluating those risks is one of the most important skills in the game. DDs also do the least damage of any class in the game and they are vulnerable, which compensates for their ability in spotting and cap control. Additionally you can use islands and stuff to control the reds' opportunities for spotting, which is another big part of the game. 

[Lordcrafty]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No.... the cruisers are often around a cap, you stick with them, until you can cap. That makes you usefull, because oyu don't die, give addtional AA bonus damage, and you can get objectives, while (depending on the DD) you can even drop your torps

Sticking with team mates doesn't mean, stay at the map border.

 

 

(1) is alone
(2) is in AA cover

 

I personally go mostly with (2), smoking my team mate and look at the CVs focus.

have you picked up on how much stronger the 1 position is for a DD though? limiting the DD to position 2 is a massive win in of itself, and you can even strike something else whilst doing it, an absolute win for the CV player.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

have you picked up on how much stronger the 1 position is for a DD though? limiting the DD to position 2 is a massive win in of itself, and you can even strike something else whilst doing it, an absolute win for the CV player.

I have no clue, what kind of scenario you have in mind, that you are saying that. But in my DD games, it's more likely a win than a lose.

And when I play CV, I see, how the position (1) is often the failure, while the (2) is not.

 

It's funny, how all the time here in this forum got claimed, how a CV easily kills a solo DD, but now all of the sudden, the solo DD is the best position and a win? :D

 

It's like, I say A, and someone says, no it's B

If I would say a day later, it's B; then someone would say, no, it's A xD

 

This is how this forum feels like ^^

 

 

[Lordcrafty]

10 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I have no clue, what kind of scenario you have in mind, that you are saying that. But in my DD games, it's more likely a win than a lose.

And when I play CV, I see, how the position (1) is often the failure, while the (2) is not.

 

It's funny, how all the time here in this forum got claimed, how a CV easily kills a solo DD, but now all of the sudden, the solo DD is the best position and a win? :D

 

It's like, I say A, and someone says, no it's B

If I would say a day later, it's B; then someone would say, no, it's A xD

 

This is how this forum feels like ^^

 

 

That's the problem, what should you do? The point is that there's no effective counterplay where you end up on top!

edit: I also wouldn't call that a "solo DD" they''re close enough to the cruiser to spot DDs for it and for the cruiser to support with radar, I'd look at a "solo DD" in a surface ship context anyway, cuase what's the point if you only have to be over 3km from a surface ship to count as a "solo DD"?

[B051LjKo]

I dint play CVs for a while, but since the captain rework is here, and next season of CB is with CV, I sailed around in a couple of tier X CVs.

 

Comments:

- AA builds are meaningful again. Full built AA cruisers will not allow second strike from any carrier

- MVR nerf was just in the wrong direction. Yes the ship was OP, but the dispersion on AP bombs is just horrible. They should have tuned the damage down to 6K or something. No the only viable options MVR has are AP rockets and torps. 

-FDR is still incredibly boring to play. The design of that this is so wrong in more directions than I can count

- Flak burst with Def A is just too strong against non skilled players. It is basically a squadron gone. It just increases the skill gap.

- Skill gap in general will increase. I see a lot of mediocre CV players being deplanes in the middle of the match

- 2 cruisers with decent AA levels sailing together are more or less immune to CV attacks on the long run. They do get some chip damage, but will deplane anything in 5-10 minute time 

 

In general, I have a feeling that they are again using the sledgehammer for fine-tuning. My prediction I that the popularity of the CVs will drop again. The average Joe will no be able to cope with the current levels of AA. A buff for the CVs will be needed. My bet is in the plane regen area, as that is the one they haven't touched yet.

 

All in all, not the best experience.

 

[El2aZeR]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's funny, how all the time here in this forum got claimed, how a CV easily kills a solo DD, but now all of the sudden, the solo DD is the best position and a win?

 

Since it has already been explained to you one can only imagine that you are being deliberately disingenuous once again.

 

Hint: There is no positive outcome for the DD.

 

3 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Comments:

- AA builds are meaningful again. Full built AA cruisers will not allow second strike from any carrier

- MVR nerf was just in the wrong direction. Yes the ship was OP, but the dispersion on AP bombs is just horrible. They should have tuned the damage down to 6K or something. No the only viable options MVR has are AP rockets and torps. 

-FDR is still incredibly boring to play. The design of that this is so wrong in more directions than I can count

- Flak burst with Def A is just too strong against non skilled players. It is basically a squadron gone. It just increases the skill gap.

- Skill gap in general will increase. I see a lot of mediocre CV players being deplanes in the middle of the match

- 2 cruisers with decent AA levels sailing together are more or less immune to CV attacks on the long run. They do get some chip damage, but will deplane anything in 5-10 minute time 

 

How you even notice the difference between an AA built ship and a normal one is beyond me.

 

MvR is dead, sure. Good thing other hilariously op options which are still left unchecked exist so who cares.

 

Not sure what you expected to change.

 

Git gud. If you refuse to, you deserve to fail.

 

I see even terrible CV players run around with viable strike wings all match long. I guess that puts your experience into perspective.

 

They actually die just like before. AA has not changed much with the cpt skill rework.

 

As for your hopes for a buff, the newly announced high tier cruisers actually have AA values that rival pre-0.8.7 AA effectiveness at least in theory, so that's not happening.

[Panocek]

13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Duration of flak has been lengthened to address the speed exploit which makes speed juking a lot more difficult and practically impossible for slower planes. Other than that nothing has changed.

I believe to I've noticed that the hard way during one and only CV game I had in a long time, when @Zuihou_Kai bothered me sufficiently enough to grief him with Audacious ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

That said, I must throw in "fixed skill gap" joke, because that sole game, making all the mistakes possible and then some still was rated unicum

 

 

Also imagine plane of existence this horse must be achieving after not merely beating, but outright pulverizing for 2nd year by now. Or its 3rd? Can't tell anymore

[Excavatus]

On 4/9/2021 at 5:26 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, probably I'm incompetent, that I lose planes in a battle

Nope, that does not mean you are incompetent.. you may or you may not, I've never seen you playing a CV so I canno be a judge of that

But, losing planes, usually does not mean anything for CV and its effectiveness and its DPM. 

Because, DPM on theory and DPM on practice is very much different things. 

And CV does not lose Actual DPM throughout the battle, but instead its DPM gets higher and higher. 

If you know how to manage your reserves. 

 

[Pukovnik7]

Problem is that CVs are not balanced with other ships.

1) Rocket planes: one pass and destroyer is dead (if caught broadside) or significantly damaged (if bow-on). There is literally no way to avoid damage. And if CV is determined, he will get a side-on strike - even if it takes him some time.

2) Too powerful throughout the game - AA is basically useless at low tiers, and I am not sure it becomes more useful at high tiers. And so far I have certainly not noticed the alleged drop in CV strike effectiveness throughout the game.

3) CVs have a counter for every single ship class in the game - torpedo and dive bombers against battleships and cruisers, rocket planes against cruisers and destroyers.  Other players have to learn cooperation and tactics, CVs are a world unto themselves. Literally the only issue CV players face is lining up the attacks, which I admit is not very easy... but once you get a knack for it (I never bothered), there is no other major barrier.

 

Anyway, when I play destroyers, I often get hounded by at least one, and often both, CVs in the game. In my last game, it lasted for... maybe ten minutes? Especially after I spotted the first one (he got deleted by a nearby battleship, though). In the end, I lost my entire HP pool to a single rocket strike once a CV managed to finally line up with a squadron (he used mostly dive and torpedo bombers up to that point, with maybe a single rocket attack). And this is my experience in more than half CV games, especially when I play a smokeless DD. Question is, how useful is avoiding the CV attacks like that for the team? And if it is useful, why give CVs what is essentially an easy-mode counter against DDs?

[BLUB__BLUB]

17 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Question is, how useful is avoiding the CV attacks like that for the team?

Apparently it is. Your spotting was why that nearby BB deleted that CV. 

 

17 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

And if it is useful, why give CVs what is essentially an easy-mode counter against DDs?

Not all CVs get that, and your "one strike from rockets, DD dead" is not accurate. 

Even if you get him 100% broadside and you have a CV with HE-rockets, usually 30% is what you get. 

If you manage to get off 3 attacks, yes, maybe you can kill him. 

Why? Well... that nearby BB... which doesn't have to be that nearby either, really. 

[Lordcrafty]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Apparently it is. Your spotting was why that nearby BB deleted that CV. 

 

Not all CVs get that, and your "one strike from rockets, DD dead" is not accurate. 

Even if you get him 100% broadside and you have a CV with HE-rockets, usually 30% is what you get. 

If you manage to get off 3 attacks, yes, maybe you can kill him. 

Why? Well... that nearby BB... which doesn't have to be that nearby either, really. 

30%? I've halved the HP on plenty of DDs with rockets.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Lordcrafty said:

30%? I've halved the HP on plenty of DDs with rockets.

I did too, sometimes they even detonated, so 100% blap. But that is not the "usual result". 

I'm quite sure you also got some that did totally nothing, maybe an "incapacitation", but no points. 

Also... remember you're not the average tater. At all... 

[Lordcrafty]

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

As for your hopes for a buff, the newly announced high tier cruisers actually have AA values that rival pre-0.8.7 AA effectiveness at least in theory, so that's not happening.

personally I don't like the fact that now they seem to just be selling the solution to the issue they created with halland and this new line. I suppose people will readily welcome it though I would prefer to see AA improvements across the board for other ships instead of new lines. Do you think they should be using AA so disproportionate to sell their new ships? Tbh it's possible that the new line is also in preparation for KOTS or more T10CV CBs. Almost interested to see what running a full linup of these and one halland a CV and a BB would look like in CBs xD.

[Lordcrafty]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I did too, sometimes they even detonated, so 100% blap. But that is not the "usual result". 

I'm quite sure you also got some that did totally nothing, maybe an "incapacitation", but no points. 

Also... remember you're not the average tater. At all... 

I would say it depends on the tier though, it's easier to get consistent high numbers in a T8 and when you're facing an uptiered DD they don't have much HP in the first place.

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, Lordcrafty said:

I would say it depends on the tier though, it's easier to get consistent high numbers in a T8 and when you're facing an uptiered DD they don't have much HP in the first place.

True. But it also depends on the particular CV, and mostly on the skill of  both CV-driver and DD-captain. 

I had such DDs they refused to show side whatever I did. Now I'm not THAT good... but also not a tater. 

Later DDs also have a heal, so.... 

 

I'd still not say "half HP gone" in one strike is an average result. Probable WeeGee spreadsheet knows... 

 

[Herm_i_one]

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned; apologies if it has but here it is.

 

Is it possible that when you want to recall a Squadron, you make it such that the F key has to be hit twice; rather like how you have to launch a squadron by hitting the appropriate number key twice.  

The amount of times I have inadvertently recalled a Squadron because I accidentally hit the F key, instead of D to make the Squadron turn right.  Just having the option of a double tap confirms the recall.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Just cause why the hell not.

 

[Lordcrafty]

2 hours ago, Herm_i_one said:

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned; apologies if it has but here it is.

 

Is it possible that when you want to recall a Squadron, you make it such that the F key has to be hit twice; rather like how you have to launch a squadron by hitting the appropriate number key twice.  

The amount of times I have inadvertently recalled a Squadron because I accidentally hit the F key, instead of D to make the Squadron turn right.  Just having the option of a double tap confirms the recall.

I think instant recalls is more convenient than a safety system, you just need to be more careful and get used to it.

[Miscommunication_dept]

7 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Problem is that CVs are not balanced with other ships.

1) Rocket planes: one pass and destroyer is dead (if caught broadside) or significantly damaged (if bow-on). There is literally no way to avoid damage. And if CV is determined, he will get a side-on strike - even if it takes him some time.

 

What ship are you talking about?

 

I have been able to kill things like a Yugumo with my enterprise with a single flight when it straight lines to a  cap with AA off and I get three or four strikes.

In one strike, only if a DD has no det flag.

 

Enterprise fighters are the strongest in the game by a significant margin. 

 

Enterprise is ridiculously overpowered against destroyers but i don't think exaggerating will help you make your point.

[Miscommunication_dept]

3 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

Just cause why the hell not.

 

What surprised me about this when I saw it live, was how Flambass does make mistakes that even I notice but he managed to do huge damage.

He even took it up the middle!

[Nibenay78]

7 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Apparently it is. Your spotting was why that nearby BB deleted that CV. 

 

Not all CVs get that, and your "one strike from rockets, DD dead" is not accurate. 

Even if you get him 100% broadside and you have a CV with HE-rockets, usually 30% is what you get. 

If you manage to get off 3 attacks, yes, maybe you can kill him. 

Why? Well... that nearby BB... which doesn't have to be that nearby either, really. 

30% is only 50% of the total damage of your 100% which now is down to 40% because of the %-age of incoming crap your way from everyone else.

[Pukovnik7]

31 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

What ship are you talking about?

 

I have been able to kill things like a Yugumo with my enterprise with a single flight when it straight lines to a  cap with AA off and I get three or four strikes.

In one strike, only if a DD has no det flag.

 

Enterprise fighters are the strongest in the game by a significant margin. 

 

Enterprise is ridiculously overpowered against destroyers but i don't think exaggerating will help you make your point.

It was a low tier Japanese DD, I think. But still, from what I remember, it went from full HP to almost zero due to being caught broadside. Unfortunately, I don't think AI is good enough to repeat that experiment in COOP. What I do remember is that I was in a turn, and rocket squadron caught me flat on broadside. But as I said, I generally manage to avoid such a situation, at least against a single carrier (there were two in that game).

 

If it is true that rockets are not powerful enough, then it might be that I had run out of Juliet Charlie flags by that game...

[Nibenay78]

2 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

It was a low tier Japanese DD, I think. But still, from what I remember, it went from full HP to almost zero due to being caught broadside. Unfortunately, I don't think AI is good enough to repeat that experiment in COOP. What I do remember is that I was in a turn, and rocket squadron caught me flat on broadside. But as I said, I generally manage to avoid such a situation, at least against a single carrier (there were two in that game).

 

If it is true that rockets are not powerful enough, then it might be that I had run out of Juliet Charlie flags by that game...

They should not be.

 

I've had a game where i played Minotaur, went nose in on the first strike of the game, took 15k.

Great fun!