General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

I dislike Artillery there also, but at least they have some massive disadvantages and it's not impossible to snipe them back with arty. Here CVs are practically immune by design to other CVs, at least to the extent it's a complete waste of time to snipe them away at the start of the game in your own CV.

That's not the point, I didn't mean to compare in detail. But the overall game design.
I mean, you say you can shoot back the Arty, but then you can't shoot down the Arties shells, while you can shoot down planes. Also an Arty strikes out of the shadows, while are almost always spotted and annouce their attack. Though I don't play WoT, and it was not supposed to go into depth comparison.

I just mean, there are game designs, that always have a frustrating component

Like I said, that are always Carriers in any game, Artillery, Sniper, or in RPGs and Mobas immune champions and sniper champions.

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Aside for having a minimum of derettent to not be rushed down, CVs need no support really to do their job. They start out strong and grow stronger. Indeed the current state is what matters, and it's as bad I'd rather have CVs removed than anything else.

Hmm, I don't agree with that. A CV can strike alone, but it can be hard and waste of time. it depends on the players and ships. When the CV takes 8 Minutes to strike a AA heavy BB alone, then it might be already lost. Also I remember in 1vs1-Brawl, I played Kii, and no CV had a chance, not even close.

 

Especially in Clan Battles I noticed, striking alone a single target was often pointless. Without any ally fire, the enemies can fully concentrate on the CV and maneuver away. Though I played Hakuryu, but well, that's a CV, too.

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

It seems some of your problems was playing AA weak ships left you helpless.

No, I saw not only one issue with RTS. I saw a lot issues. And mostly I played AA weak ships, but also AA heavy ships like Kii.

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Well then maybe you should play AA strong ships, or stay close

I played AA heavy ships, and "stay" close works not, when you play Nagato and only a Tirpitz and a Mogami is on your side. You can't summon an AA heavy ship ;)

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

good teamplay on the AA ships part was just to help out. This role is mostly gone

It changed to, that multiple ships in general have good AA, not single specific ones. But also the concept is so different, that you can't have these no-fly-zone ships imo. The RTS striked with all planes at once, if the AA would be too weak, he would still get too many strikes through to delete the no fly zones. Now a CV can only strike with ~25%-33% of the squadron.

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

flanking, sneaking, ambushing or just moving a bit aside to make crossfire.

That worked with the RTS? I thought the RTS would spot even better with all those squadrons. Though in Clan Battles people still did that, but in a group.

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Of course all ships should be valid, but thats another of WGs failings tbh. Then again to have say 100 ships with different feel and configuration, some will be "generally" more stronger or weaker than others.

It's always frustrating to die, but it's vastly easier to avoid torpedoes from luck/forethought/skill/etc than any if the CVs 99% guided strikes. I take devstrikes from torpedoes happily compared to the incessant harrassment of any CV. To the point that when I am clearly going to live <10 secs and the CV is coming for the death blow, I'll just show broadside to everyone else.

I take rather hits from a CV, than a torpedo from a DD. People often say, that the CV choses the target. But that can be also a disadvantage, when a good player knows, how to minimize damage, then the CV might have picked the wrong target, which can be a winning condition. While the DD might have only one target to torp anyways

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

As it should be unfun, just the same to lose one of your major strong traits/advantages in playing a AA ship. In minotaur it's often more detrimental to me to actually shoot at planes than to just remain hidden.

Idk, Minotaur has strong AA, but that doesn't mean, she has to be op against planes. The game design has changed from Extremes to no extremes but many averages. That was one of my issues with the RTS. There were ships like Minotaur from the view of a CV I saw those as minefields and not even as players. Just big circles on the map, that I have to avoide, but on the other hand only victirms, who just get one shotted (including flood/fires)

It was a bit one-sided. Only black and white.

Actually I wish they would change AA to mostly Manual control with some continues dps. But it should be hard, so hard that a solo super-unicum could archieve a no-fly zone sometimes, but not even always. And a few good players together still won't archieve that, maybe only somtimes.

So technically, the CV still gets his single strike out, but then we could get videos, where single super-unicums delete full squads because of his skill and we can say "git gud" xD

 

6 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sure it can make some flak and newbies can ram them

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but someone mentioned it, and it felt a bit like that, that they changed the flak explosion. It take recently way more single explosion, than before, even I saw super unicums taking there single explosions.

I can't tell, if that is true, but I think it was before that they shoot like 4 times at the same spot in a row, then they adjust, and now they shoot only 1-2 times at the same spot and then adjust, might be wrong.

 

7 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

I count that as part of a BBs weakness. I played a LOT of BB for a while and I see it as my job to assist DDs with my insane alfa, range, DPM. After all they are the "counter" to BBs in this game, and despite this, I enjoyed found it fair that CVs generally was strong vs BBs.

DDs are that, what RTS CV were. As BB i'm depending on the DDs. Same with RTS CV, tehre was the dependency, if you got the good or bad CV as long there was not a good AA ship around, but even that was kinda meh, because CV matches were rare, so you don't see that many AA ships around.
As I said, I like the rework way more than the RTS CV, but doesn't mean, that it couldn't need improvement. I had 2 suggestions how to improve it.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

9 hours ago, Cippalippus said:

I would say that all the CVs have a place in a T10 clan battle, except the british one which is by far the worst. The Midway has amazing bombers, whereas the FDR has a couple of shortcomings that make me doubt about its effectiveness in a CW.

It will depend heavily on what the reds bring. If they bring lots of light cruisers and a a soft BB... - get MvR. 

If they have lots of fat ones, FDR, maybe. It is soooooo slow.... what spotting will it provide?

And once gone, the squads stays gone. In the time of a CB you will not get many planes back.  

Midway is a great allrounder. But if the battles end up a bit "campy".... Haku might be king. 

 

9 hours ago, ObiWankov said:

maybe in storm league

I wonder what makes the difference. Mainly, your own clan should practise. 

Most clans hate CV that much they do not want to div up, as such they do not know how to co-operate with a CV. 

I divved up with clanmates - some really make it work, they get twice the damage... 

[Sunleader]

22 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

it's not only in the hand of the CV. the player still has a keyboard. It's not in the hand of the CV, if I decide to sit next to 5 Minotaurs, or if I go solo as DD with AA one, firing guns.

It's not in the Hand of the CV, if I sit stationary, or if I start to wiggle around...

 

Otherwise it's also only in the hand of the attacker in general.

 

If you Decide to Sit next to 5 Minotaurs its still in my Hand. Because I will decide to just Ignore You as you are utterly useless to your Team and thus there is far more Importand Targets on your Team to be Removed.

 

We have been over this Topic 500 times in this Topic.

Yes as a DD you can Avoid being Killed by a CV by just Hiding behind your Fleet for the Whole Game.

Just like a BB can prevent being Bombed by a CV by just Turning around and Hiding on his Spawns Map Border.

 

Thing is. This isnt Beating or Outplaying the CV.

Its letting the CV Win by Default as you simply dont give him any Reason to Kill You by being so useless that your not worth being Targeted.

 

Its the same as the Whole Team Staying behind their Spawn.

Sure. You have a Tactical Combat Advantage by just Completely Kiting the Enemy.

So if the Battle Lasts long enough you got a Good Chance to actually Win.

But as the Enemy will take all Capture Points the Battle just wont last that Long and you end up with the Choice to either turn back and attack in a now very unfavorable Position or to keep going and lose on Points with most of your Team still being Alive.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

There's 2 ways to avoid the DPM-decrease...

1. Easy: Just do not attack those ships that have more AA than the rest...

2. Harder: GitGud. All or most FLAK is avoidable. Even DPS is a calculated risk. 

 

But online, I see CVs flying into FLAK, attacking a Halland when he is accompanied by his Mino and Wooster buddies...

Well yes they suffer DPM loss. But when I see what they do their DPM wouldn't be that high anyway. 

Like, attacking a BB from the front with torpedoes, using AP-bombs on a DD....

Those torpedoes also being not full-aim (AKA going left, right and everywhere..) or dropped too short (not arming).

 

On the other hand, we have the Smolensk sitting in smoke, firing his guns, becoming detected.

And then going REEEE REEEE when I megablap him with 8 torps from FDR. Yes CV OP. Duh. 

It was actually lucky because the Iowa a bit further away was still reloading... and the Thunderer, too.

 

Yes I have seen it all happen. However... I also see cruisers shooting AP at an angled BB, and such. 

And even in CB an Akizuki smokes up 6km from my Seattle, after failing to torp me... so... hmm.

 

Part of it is also you unicums not taking the average level of play into account.

I am (sort of) trying to GitGud. Most random players do not even have an idea how to.

 

If you want to Gid Gud. You should Drop that Mindset tough.

You See. There is a Reason that I hate Playing CV Right now. And that is that whenever I play CV. I am having more Stress than Fun.

 

That is Because if you want to become Good at Playing CVs. You need to Learn 3 Facts of CV Gameplay.

 

 

1.

You are the one Responsible for Winning that Game. So your also the one who needs to keep an Eye on the Whole Battle and not just some Fight you Picked with an Enemy Ship somewhere.

Because your the one who has to React and Carry that Battle. Your the one who has to Compensate for your Teams Mistakes and make sure the Enemies Teams Mistakes are Punished.

Your also the one who needs to Provoke the Enemy into making Punishable Mistakes and who needs to Counter it when the Enemy takes an Opportunity.

 

Dont even think of others doing something.

Anything your Team does is a Bonus. Not the Standard.

 

Your the one who Needs to See when one of your DDs is Matched against a DD that will likely Kill him and thus make sure that Enemy DD Dies First.

Your the one who Needs to See where an Enemy Torp DD is that might Harass your Teams Flank and not only cost them tons of HP but also Push them back from that Flank and Spot that DD so he cant do his Job and your Team is aware of that DD.

Your the one who Needs to See when the Enemy is Pushing into a Favorable Position and make sure they get Intercepted.

Your the one who Needs to See when an Enemy is Perfectly Positioned and make sure that either he gives up that Position or takes Massive Damage from your Bombing.

You need to be Aware where your Team is and make sure that when you Drop Torps its Angled so that Avoiding these Torps means Showing Broadside to your Teams Battleships.

You need to be Aware of your Cruisers Positions and make sure to Spot any DD that is in a Favorable Spot for them to Shoot.

You need to Notice when your DD is Failing to Spot the Enemy Flank and Remedy that.

Etc etc etc.

 

The Ability to do that. Is why CVs have so much Influence in Battle.

And Thanks to Mirrored MM. You being in that Team with a CV means the Enemy CV has one too.

So if you dont actually use all that Influence that you have. You will make your Teams Chances at winning alot Worse as the Enemy CV might be using his Influence.

Thats why Bad CV Players despite being in such an Overpowered Ship. Tend to have Abysmal Winrates.

Because that OP Ship is Automaticly Mirrored by an OP Ship in the enemy Side as well.

 

 

2.

Your Target Choice has only one Deciding Question you need to Ask.

Does this Target need to Die or be Pushed Away in order for my Team to Win.

If that Question is Answered with Yes. Then its AA etc does not Matter. It needs to go.

 

Your Planes are Ammunition. They are there to be used.

You dont lose DPM. You got Limited Charges to begin with.

Your Job is to use these Charges to Maximum Effect on the Correct Targets.

 

Some DD Hiding 5km behind 2 Minotaurs is not a Target you Should Attack.

Not because hes got AA from 2 Other Ships there.

But because he is Useless anyways.

 

But 2 Minotaurs Pushing together with a DD. Is Something you should Attack anyways.

Because you need to Keep them Spotted and Drop Bombs on them so their Push Fails and they get Deleted instead.

 

And thats the thing.

If you make the Right Choice and use your Charges Properly instead of Wasting them on Wrong Targets.

You will never lose DPM. Because from the Start you have Enough Charges to last the Game.

The 2 Minos with a DD which are in a Dangerous Position and need to be Attacked. Are pretty much always also in a Position where if you Attack them. They are pretty much Dead because they are Exposed.

Likewise 2 Minos and a DD in a Position where they wont Die if they get Exposed are almost never in a Position that actually makes them relevant for you to Attack.

 

Target Choice is the Keyword.

You need to Choose the Target which makes you Win that Match.

Thats where your back to Point 1 Above. You need to Identify which enemy Ship needs to Die for your Team to Win.

That can be a Ship that is Exposed if you attack it and thus gives your Team a Big Advantage on that Side. It can also be an Enemy that is in a Dangerous Position and currently prevents your Team from Winning due to his Position blocking them.

 

Attacking Easy Targets for Damage and easy Kills. is something you do in between when there is no Importand Target that you need to Deal with right now and thus have the Time to Harass the Enemy into making Mistakes or to Farm Damage.

 

 

3.

As already Stated above.

Planes are an Ammunition with Limited Charges.

They are NOT something you should be Scared to use.

Losing them is Part of the Game.

Planes are Ammunition. Not HP.

Planes are the same as Torpedoes on a DD or the Heal on a Battleship.

 

Thats why you Check what your Target is beforehand. And then take the Appropriate amount of Planes along to Kill it while dropping the Rest.

If you Fly a Full Squadron with 4 Drops into a Blob of 6 Enemies. Then what your doing is the same as a Shimakaze which is Dropping 15 Torps at the same Spot or a BB using its Heal after losing 8k HP to a Longrange Salvo Healing 4k HP with a Heal that could have Healed 12k

Your Spending 4 Charges on something that should only Cost you 2 Charges.

Your not Losing DPM.

CVs do not Lose DPM.

Your Wasting your DPM and thus you Run out of it before the Match is over.

 

CVs have more than enough Charges to easily Attack any Relevant Target for a Whole Game.

The only way you manage to Run out of DPM during a Match is by Wasting your Charges early on by either Attacking Irrelevant Targets or by Spending more Charges on a Target than Necessary.

 

 

 

 

TLDR.

If you want to get Good with CVs.

 

1.

Accept the Fact that your the one who needs to Carry his Team.

2.

Accept the Fact that Choosing Targets is not a Question of AA or how much Damage you can Farm. But is a Question of wether that Target needs to Die for you to Win.

3.

Accept the Fact that Planes are an Ammunition. You dont lose them. You use them. And you either Use them effectively or you Waste them. The only one Responsible for that is you.

 

 

 

Sounds like a Crabton of Work. I know.

Especially when your not a Unicum which at the fact that I am explaining this likely Shrugs and wonders why I make such a Big Deal out of looking at the Minimap for 2 Seconds to Pick the next Victim.

 

But thats Why I really Dislike Playing CV right now.

When your not a Unicum to which this is Second Nature. Then Playing a CV Properly is pretty Stressful unfortunately.

 

[Miscommunication_dept]

Great post @Sunleader

 

What would you do if both flanks are losing? When one is I can either reinforce the strong side and get them

through into a flanking position or I can  delay caps  and slow the enemies push. 
 

I struggle to select appropriate targets when the enemy pushes both sides and our team folds.

[Sunleader]

1 minute ago, gopher31 said:

Great post @Sunleader

 

What would you do if both flanks are losing? When one is I can either reinforce the strong side and get them

through into a flanking position or I can  delay caps  and slow the enemies push. 
 

I struggle to select appropriate targets when the enemy pushes both sides and our team folds.

 

Something you should Accept Regardless of Class is that not every Match can be Won.

Even the Unicum CV Players will still lose Games. So even if you Play Perfectly as a CV. You wont get far over 75% Winrate in the Long Run. With a Full Div you can of course Reach Further. But thats a different Story.

 

To Answer your Question.

Neither and Both.

 

Which Flank you Primarily Support is Decided at the Start of the Match. If that Flank Loses Regardless you either already made too many Mistakes or you Drew a Team that just cant be Carried.

But to begin with. You Supporting a Flank Results from you Attacking the Relevant Targets on that Flank.

So thinking about which Flank to Support is already a Mistake.

 

Because it makes you think that you Choose a Flank and then Choose a Target on that Flank.

But thats the wrong Order of Steps.

You dont Choose a Flank to Support and then Choose a Target to Support that Flank.

You Choose a Target that needs to Die for your Team to Win. And by Killing that Target you are Supporting One or Both Flanks as a Result.

 

 

The Premise really Stays exactly the same as in my Post above.

You need to Identify which Targets you need to Kill to Win.

 

Why is your 2 Flanks Losing.

The Answer is your Target.

 

 

Now Pls note. If you cant find anything and your Team is just Falling like Flies in a Frontal Battle. Then that might also just be bad Luck. Sometimes you get Teams that Yolo and Throw away their Lives.

So dont Dwell on it. Even the Best CV Players do not get 100% Winrate.

But in the Vast Majority of the Cases. There is something there which makes them Lose.

 

Is there a DD on that Flank which is Spotting your Team and due to which your BBs and Cruisers cant Maneuver thus constantly being Forced to either Show Broadside or Eat Torps unless they Kite Away ?

Is there a Radar Cruiser which is keeping your own DD from Closing the Range ?

Is there an Enemy BB or Supercruiser that has Pushed into a Position thats Forcing you Team to Back away as they get Crossfired otherwise ?

Or is your DD a Potato which is sitting behind his BBs thus leaving them Exposed without Spotting ?

Is there a Strong Enemy DD or Cruiser with Torps which is Lurking there making it Impossible for your Team to Push ?

 

It doesnt matter which Flank you Support.

What matters. Is the Reason the Flank is Losing. Because you need to Fix that Reason.

And you need to do it Quickly before your Team has such a Big Disadvantage that its no longer possible to turn it around.

 

 

You need to Identify Problems that Prevent your Team from Winning. And Remove them. 

And Best is actually you dont just need to do that once your Flank is Losing. Because Frankly. At this Point you already made a Mistake. The Best would have been if you had Removed that Problem before it became one.

 

The most Common Problem is DDs. Which is why one of the First Pieces of Advice you.ll Get as a CV. Is to Hunt for DDs.

Because even if you are not yet at a Level where you can Identify the Relevant Targets.

The DDs are the most Common Threat for your Teams Victory. So Removing them Preemptively will very often Allow your Team to Win already as these DDs then cant actually start becoming a Problem that makes your Flank Lose.

And thats Frankly the Best Approach for any Relevant Target.

Right at the Start of the Match you should Check. What DDs does the Enemy Have. What Cruisers does he Have etc.

Once you Know what Potential Problems the Enemy Team has for your Team you do your Obligatory First Spotting run around the Enemy Frontline to Note which Enemy Ships of Relevance have gone where.

 

Is that Enemy Radar Cruiser which really might become a Bad Problem for your Team heading for an Island in a Center Position where he can Radar two Caps and Block your DDs ?

Then Attack him. Spot him so he cant go there Peacefully and if possible Torp him so he turns away or in some Lucky cases even gets Blapped by your BBs.

Is that Enemy Torpedo DD going to the Flank where he almost Certainly will be Starting to Torp your BBs making it Impossible for them to Push there ?

Then let him go a bit till he is far enough out that he cant Run back to his Fleet anymore and then Spot and Attack him. So you either Kill him or Force him to waste another 3-4 Minutes Running away and then trying to go to the Flank again.

Is that Enemy Sniper BB taking a Perfect Central Position from where he can nicely Fire on both Flanks BBs Broadsides the moment they try to Push a Flank ?

Put a Fighter Plane outside his AA but in Spotting Range and maybe see if you can make him Turn away with Torps so this Position either causes him to get Spammed and Killed or he cant reach that Position without major HP loss in the First Place.

 

 

 

Thats Called Map Control.

And most of the Unicums can See such Issues at a Glance. Many of them to the Point where they are no longer just blocking the Enemy from reaching that Situation but are actively causing these Situations for the Enemy by for example Seeing that their DD is close to a Gap in the Enemy Formation which is Blocked by only one Specific Enemy. Thus them Clearing out that Enemy allowing their own DD to have a Field Day as he breaks apart the Enemy Frontline merely by being in that Position with no Enemy Challenging his Advance.

 

Learning to See such Issues and Opportunities and Reacting to them Before they become actual Problems that Threaten your Teams Victory. Is likely the most Relevant thing towards becoming a Good CV Player.

 

[Cippalippus]

11 hours ago, ObiWankov said:

maybe in storm league

Don't sell the midway too short, yo

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

If you want to Gid Gud. You should Drop that Mindset tough.

I know. That is why I put "sort of" GitGud.

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You See. There is a Reason that I hate Playing CV Right now. And that is that whenever I play CV. I am having more Stress than Fun.

That is because you care about WR and damage. There is a solution:

Try less hard, enjoy the salt, do something funny or stupid once in a while. 

This is a game. It is not a job. The company will not go bankrupt if you do not give it your best.

You will not get fired, lose your job, your house and your kids will not be starving. 

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

That is Because if you want to become Good at Playing CVs. You need to Learn 3 Facts of CV Gameplay.

And this is true. That is exactly how you become unicum player. 

 

But there is the point. I just want to be ABLE to do it. For when I meet that kind of "zzpeciuulll people". 

I am not going to (try to) do it every time. It would ruin the game, and give me a headache. 

I would have more stress than fun. I am NOT planning to do that. 

 

Instead... I will have fun deleting a Smolensk... in one go... because that is an ART. 

And will have fun sending DDs crazy... with torpedoes... f*ck damage, but still win, LOL. 

Go through the middle with CV on Two Brothers, and still kick-a$$ everything. 

 

Makes me think... what is GOOD... hmmm... 

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

If you Decide to Sit next to 5 Minotaurs its still in my Hand

Because that's physik / common sense. Fast units move fast. You probably won't find a game, where that kind of rule won't work. In every naval battle, that I know, are the planes the fastest and decide about the engagement.

It's mostly always = Fastest unit = most flexiblity.

If you remove CV, you get DD with most flexibility and those will mostly decide the engagement, if they don't run accidently into each other, but even then, they decided to do that.

 

So pointing out the speed is kinda useless, that will never happen, even if you nerf it further more, it will be still the fastest and decide about that.

 

Though the minos are stleathy, maybe you don't even know, that there are 5

 

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Thing is. This isnt Beating or Outplaying the CV.

it's a huge difference, if you are a DD, that moves straight with AA on, while AA is even weak and taking 3 strikes of one squadron die

or

playing smart, sticking with cruiser, cap, when it'S possible, turning and maneuvering and taking only 0-2 rockets each attack (or more, depending on RNG)

 

That is totally in the hand of the player. The CV can decide the engagement, but not what the surface ship player does. and if you make it very hard, alone that can decide over win or lose.

 

Yesterday I had a small match in my Kaga. The enemy had an öland and I went for her over 4 minutes, only a hipper with very bad aim tryed to shoot at her. It was kinda not worth it to go for her that long, and she survived almost until the end and she rather only died, because all her mates died. If her mates would win, all my doing would be pointless

 

Oh and I did yesterday a 26,000 AA hit against a FDR lol xD

[Nibenay78]

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's not the point, I didn't mean to compare in detail. But the overall game design.
I mean, you say you can shoot back the Arty, but then you can't shoot down the Arties shells, while you can shoot down planes. Also an Arty strikes out of the shadows, while are almost always spotted and annouce their attack. Though I don't play WoT, and it was not supposed to go into depth comparison.

I just mean, there are game designs, that always have a frustrating component

Like I said, that are always Carriers in any game, Artillery, Sniper, or in RPGs and Mobas immune champions and sniper champions.

We can avoid that. I have about 20k games in WoT and while arty is incredibly annoying, it is NOT as all powerful as CV nor as destructive or annoying. Carries are again created differently than CV usually being exceptionally weak. In my eyes you can't really even compare that 4 classes of WoT with such games. It's just too different.

 

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Hmm, I don't agree with that. A CV can strike alone, but it can be hard and waste of time. it depends on the players and ships. When the CV takes 8 Minutes to strike a AA heavy BB alone, then it might be already lost. Also I remember in 1vs1-Brawl, I played Kii, and no CV had a chance, not even close.

Don't think I faced a Kii but I again I think i won like 70-80% of the brawls in CV and the losses I blame mostly that I'm inadequate in CV.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Especially in Clan Battles I noticed, striking alone a single target was often pointless. Without any ally fire, the enemies can fully concentrate on the CV and maneuver away. Though I played Hakuryu, but well, that's a CV, too.

Like with any other ship, it can take ages to grind down a ship in one on one, difference is both ships will suffer greatly probably.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No, I saw not only one issue with RTS. I saw a lot issues. And mostly I played AA weak ships, but also AA heavy ships like Kii.

 

I played AA heavy ships, and "stay" close works not, when you play Nagato and only a Tirpitz and a Mogami is on your side. You can't summon an AA heavy ship ;)

Indeed not, this is why I liked to play them. I'm still all for that weak RTS AA ships should get a buff.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

It changed to, that multiple ships in general have good AA, not single specific ones. But also the concept is so different, that you can't have these no-fly-zone ships imo. The RTS striked with all planes at once, if the AA would be too weak, he would still get too many strikes through to delete the no fly zones. Now a CV can only strike with ~25%-33% of the squadron.

I'd say very few ships has anything that looks like good AA and some ships still has abysmal AA. Yet I frequently see the "good" AA ships being purposely picked on by the CV (and damaged nicely..). 

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That worked with the RTS? I thought the RTS would spot even better with all those squadrons. Though in Clan Battles people still did that, but in a group.

More than now as once the CV started attacks, they cycled more slowly which gave you time to move about. Sure it did reduced the options but the CV also couldn't just F away if you smoked up and go spot somewhere else. If he was on the far side of the map, you had time.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

I take rather hits from a CV, than a torpedo from a DD. People often say, that the CV choses the target. But that can be also a disadvantage, when a good player knows, how to minimize damage, then the CV might have picked the wrong target, which can be a winning condition. While the DD might have only one target to torp anyways

If we talk about the death blow, I'll give it to the DD.

How is it a disadvantage to be able to change targets? If a DD is stuck with "good" opponents, he have no choise but to waste a ton of time to relocate, even if he is an amazing DD and knows who to attack. At least a CV can decide to F away and do something else.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Idk, Minotaur has strong AA, but that doesn't mean, she has to be op against planes. The game design has changed from Extremes to no extremes but many averages. That was one of my issues with the RTS. There were ships like Minotaur from the view of a CV I saw those as minefields and not even as players. Just big circles on the map, that I have to avoide, but on the other hand only victirms, who just get one shotted (including flood/fires)

It was a bit one-sided. Only black and white.

Actually I wish they would change AA to mostly Manual control with some continues dps. But it should be hard, so hard that a solo super-unicum could archieve a no-fly zone sometimes, but not even always. And a few good players together still won't archieve that, maybe only somtimes.

So technically, the CV still gets his single strike out, but then we could get videos, where single super-unicums delete full squads because of his skill and we can say "git gud" xD

 

I think the more extreme is better (to some extent), if everything is averaged out, everything is the same. Quite frankly boring. As for now I don't view the ships as players when I'm playing CV, but victims of harrassment and whose game I will ruin the fun for.

AA will never be manual control in this game. This is unfortunataly a casual free to play game so WG doesn't want mechanics to be too hard, which can be seen by the dumbing down of CV play and incessant amount of HE spammer ships.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but someone mentioned it, and it felt a bit like that, that they changed the flak explosion. It take recently way more single explosion, than before, even I saw super unicums taking there single explosions.

I can't tell, if that is true, but I think it was before that they shoot like 4 times at the same spot in a row, then they adjust, and now they shoot only 1-2 times at the same spot and then adjust, might be wrong.

 

DDs are that, what RTS CV were. As BB i'm depending on the DDs. Same with RTS CV, tehre was the dependency, if you got the good or bad CV as long there was not a good AA ship around, but even that was kinda meh, because CV matches were rare, so you don't see that many AA ships around.
As I said, I like the rework way more than the RTS CV, but doesn't mean, that it couldn't need improvement. I had 2 suggestions how to improve it.

 

a bad DD can still hit with torps by accident, as there indeed is an element of luck in the guess of firing torpedoes. In addition all the 3 classes are more or less dependent on eachother. it's generally not great to be a cruiser when a big scary BB sits in cap and you need it either. Or to run around as DD when a DM pops up nearby and you have no big bad BB to help you out. 

[Nibenay78]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Because that's physik / common sense. Fast units move fast. You probably won't find a game, where that kind of rule won't work. In every naval battle, that I know, are the planes the fastest and decide about the engagement.

It's mostly always = Fastest unit = most flexiblity.

If you remove CV, you get DD with most flexibility and those will mostly decide the engagement, if they don't run accidently into each other, but even then, they decided to do that.

 

So pointing out the speed is kinda useless, that will never happen, even if you nerf it further more, it will be still the fastest and decide about that.

 

Though the minos are stleathy, maybe you don't even know, that there are 5

 

it's a huge difference, if you are a DD, that moves straight with AA on, while AA is even weak and taking 3 strikes of one squadron die

or

playing smart, sticking with cruiser, cap, when it'S possible, turning and maneuvering and taking only 0-2 rockets each attack (or more, depending on RNG)

 

That is totally in the hand of the player. The CV can decide the engagement, but not what the surface ship player does. and if you make it very hard, alone that can decide over win or lose.

 

Yesterday I had a small match in my Kaga. The enemy had an öland and I went for her over 4 minutes, only a hipper with very bad aim tryed to shoot at her. It was kinda not worth it to go for her that long, and she survived almost until the end and she rather only died, because all her mates died. If her mates would win, all my doing would be pointless

 

Oh and I did yesterday a 26,000 AA hit against a FDR lol xD

There is a significant difference when comparing that a DD is ~30% faster than a BB while a plane squadron is more like ~400% faster, plus the fact that DDs dont ignore terrain :D

[Nov_A]

8 hours ago, Nibenay78 said:

We can avoid that. I have about 20k games in WoT and while arty is incredibly annoying, it is NOT as all powerful as CV nor as destructive or annoying. Carries are again created differently than CV usually being exceptionally weak. In my eyes you can't really even compare that 4 classes of WoT with such games. It's just too different.

I have about 50k games in WoT and claim that arty is more destructive and annoying for any kind of gameplay than CVs in WoWs. Yes, arty is way less omni-powerful, but that is the point. SPGs cant spot and cant tank. They have limited firing angles and cant dig out totally camping enemies, they rely on allies for protection and spotting while CVs can spot for themselves, have okay'ish HP pools and can actually defend themselves. The form of attacking of squads and WoWs map/game design makes it impossible for people to just sit in a corner, street or unreachable hole and camp until the timer runs out and the active, probably winning team gets punished with a draw (which counts as a defeat), sometimes even rewards the camping team with a victory in modes like CW or SH. CVs can reach behind island, wins are made by points and objectives are distributed in a way that you cant just sit and watch the timer tick down.

 

The sole focus of arty is to deal damage, harrass enemy players and annoy anyone stupid enough engaging in active gameplay. They do not prevent camping, they enforce it. And while it is difficult to compare them to CVs, since the whole game design and maps are completly different, I still consider them the bigger menace, despite the bad class interaction and iteration into common gameplay of CVs.

 

Wat nou?

[Sunleader]

16 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Because that's physik / common sense. Fast units move fast. You probably won't find a game, where that kind of rule won't work. In every naval battle, that I know, are the planes the fastest and decide about the engagement.

It's mostly always = Fastest unit = most flexiblity.

If you remove CV, you get DD with most flexibility and those will mostly decide the engagement, if they don't run accidently into each other, but even then, they decided to do that.

 

So pointing out the speed is kinda useless, that will never happen, even if you nerf it further more, it will be still the fastest and decide about that.

 

Though the minos are stleathy, maybe you don't even know, that there are 5

 

it's a huge difference, if you are a DD, that moves straight with AA on, while AA is even weak and taking 3 strikes of one squadron die

or

playing smart, sticking with cruiser, cap, when it'S possible, turning and maneuvering and taking only 0-2 rockets each attack (or more, depending on RNG)

 

That is totally in the hand of the player. The CV can decide the engagement, but not what the surface ship player does. and if you make it very hard, alone that can decide over win or lose.

 

Yesterday I had a small match in my Kaga. The enemy had an öland and I went for her over 4 minutes, only a hipper with very bad aim tryed to shoot at her. It was kinda not worth it to go for her that long, and she survived almost until the end and she rather only died, because all her mates died. If her mates would win, all my doing would be pointless

 

Oh and I did yesterday a 26,000 AA hit against a FDR lol xD

 

1.

As usual your trying to Pull a Strawman and get away from the Original Argument....

This has gotten Old 100 times ago...

 

The Claim you made was. That the Attacked Player has at least Partial Control over Decreasing the CVs Power. And that this could be Achieved by for example Sitting next to 5 Minotaurs.

And the Answer to that is the same as Always.

Yes in that Specific Case you can indeed Cost the CV Power. But why would the CV bother with you in that case. You are being useless and your Team will Lose if he just leaves you alone.

So doing that is not Counterplay. Its just Surrendering the Victory and letting the CV Win without actually Engaging you.

Its like Hiding your Combat Units some Miles behind your HQ in an RTS Game. Of course the Enemy will then Never Beat your Army in Battle. Because he will just take your HQ and the Game will be Won for him.

 

Thats not Counterplay Mate.

 

And lol.

If I ever Start a Game where the Enemy Team has 5 Minotaurs and I fail to Mark their Location during Spotting Runs thus later Running into them while Attacking a DD which I found for some reason despite him having way better Concealment.

Then I must have seriously messed up somewhere already.

So Yeah. Sorry but this still wont happen unless I am the one who first allowed that to happen by Failing Hard.

 

 

2.

Yeah Indeed.

There is a Huge Difference between Kneeling Down to be Executed and Running away in Panic while being Shot.

Thing is. None of that is called Counterplay. Because none of that is actually allowing to Fight Back against a CV. Its just Desperately Clinging to your Life at the Expense of Abandoning any Strategic Positioning and or Targets you had.

 

And lol. Pls dont Drag a Cruiser Forward into a Cap for AA Cover....

Because at this Point I wont need to Attack You. I will just Attack the Cruiser as he is in a Center Position where its almost Guaranteed to several of my Teams BBs can Shoot at him from Different Angles.

So he either has to Sit behind an Island and cant move being a Perfect Damage Pinata for my CV or he can move out and maneuver to try and minimize Incoming Damage from me at the Expense of being Exposed to my Team and likely Blapped.

 

 

3.

Except you have nothing in your Hand.

See thats the Problem.

You think that everything that matters is your Survival. And if you Survive you Win.

But thats not how it Works.

My Target as a CV is not your Life. I could not care less if your Survive or not.

Killing you is a Badge and some Points but the thing I attack you for unless I am really Bored due to my Team winning so Hard that I got nothing else to do.

 

The Timing and also the Reason as to why I actually Decide to Attack You. Is because you are being a Problem to my Team.

And the moment I make that Decision. You have to make a Choice too.

That Choice is to Ignore my Attack and Try to somehow Achieve at least part of your Goal before you Die to my Planes.

Or to Try and Survive. Thus Abandoning your Position and Goal. Which then results in you no longer being a Target worth my Attack as you are no longer a Danger.

 

Thats the Problem.

I dont need to Attack you unless you actually pose a Threat to my Teams Victory.

But the moment you Do. You are almost always in an Exposed Position where me Attacking you will Hurt you Badly.

 

And thats where Speed comes in.

Because for you to Switch between being a Threat and being an Annoying Target that tries to Survive my Attacks. Takes much much Longer than it takes for me to Switch between Focusing You and Focusing whoever else gets any Funny Ideas.

 

 

4.

Then why did you go for that Öland ?

If the only Ship bothered by it enough to Shoot at it was a Lone Hipper. Why did you Waste 4 Minutes Spotting it ???

If that DD was on Route to a Position where he could Threaten Your Team. Then you should not Spot it. But Attack and Kill it.

If that DD was simply in his Teams Front Lurking and thus not posing a Threat to your Team then there was no Need to bother with it till it moved further out.

 

So Sorry. But the only thing that happened there. Is that you made a Bad Decision to Waste your DPM on a Wrong Target.

Your basicly a Shimakaze Launching all 3 Torp Launchers at an Enemey DD that was Maneuvering 10km away.

Not only is that a Complete Waste of these Torps because your Chances to actually Hit anything are Incredible Low.

But you also just Spend all this Torpedo Reload Time which you now cant use on a Target you could actually Remove from the Game.

 

But thats not the Enemies Fault. He had nothing to do with this. You just made a Bad Decision and Decided to Dump your DPM in the Water :)

 

 

[xe_N_on]

Vor 18 Stunden, Pikkozoikum sagte:

playing smart, sticking with cruiser, cap, when it'S possible, turning and maneuvering and taking only 0-2 rockets each attack (or more, depending on RNG)

 

Sticking within the AA range of a cruiser in a DD mean you stick about max. 5 km in front in of, which makes you in 75% of the situations useless.

 

It's even better to NOT stick with the AA of a cruiser that might be a priority target for a CV, because you can get detected while the CV attacks the cruiser, revealing your position. And for the next run, the CV might be coming for you. As a DD you have the greatest chance against a CV if he not know where you are.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

Sticking within the AA range of a cruiser in a DD mean you stick about max. 5 km in front in of, which makes you in 75% of the situations useless.

 

You actually need to stick within 2-3km of a cruiser since long-range AA is extremely weak across the board, typically equal or weaker in strength than Shimakaze total AA, as such won't do anything to deter air strikes. At which point you are useless in practically 100% of all situations.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

As a DD you have the greatest chance against a CV if he not know where you are.

This is it, and it is not THAT hard to achieve. A CV knows when his planes are spotted ~9-10km.

Which means, if you are a DD all alone, so not other ships near, he knows it is YOU that spots his planes. 

 

However... if there is ANOTHER ship, and that can be 10 km in the other direction, he might think it is that fat BB w that is spotting him. 

And - wil he go search for your DD? He only spots a DD at 2-2,5 km. Depending on the CV, that is time better spent bombing/torping a fat BB. 

Are you making it "worth it" to be sought out by the CV? Or are you making him waste lots of time finding you - and then you smoke up when he finally does... 

 

Mind... a game lasts 20min, say a CV can do 200k in that time. 

If you make him spend 4 minutes looking for your DD... that is 50K "tanked". 

 

[CptBarney]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

You actually need to stick within 2-3km of a cruiser since long-range AA is extremely weak across the board, typically equal or weaker in strength than Shimakaze total AA, as such won't do anything to deter air strikes. At which point you are useless in practically 100% of all situations.

does des memes, worcester and california provide deadly AA or any noticeable difference if they were to go hybrid or full AA builds atm?

just wondering since, im gauging whether miss pitty pittsburgh should be shoved into the game lol.

[AndyHill]

23 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you remove CV, you get DD with most flexibility and those will mostly decide the engagement, if they don't run accidently into each other, but even then, they decided to do that.

So they decide to have an accident?

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, CptBarney said:

does des memes, worcester and california provide deadly AA or any noticeable difference if they were to go hybrid or full AA builds atm?

just wondering since, im gauging whether miss pitty pittsburgh should be shoved into the game lol.

I tryed wooster in a few matches and actually they always took Flak hits. Or lets say, there were more approaches, where they took flak hits than approaches without hits.

One was against an FdR with a 26k hit :D

I actually removed a few times a squad, before it could do a single drop.

 

I'm not sure, if they changed something with the flak, but I never hit that often before and I played Yoshino and Shiki a lot, both have quite good AA.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, xe_N_on said:

 

Sticking within the AA range of a cruiser in a DD mean you stick about max. 5 km in front in of, which makes you in 75% of the situations useless.

 

It's even better to NOT stick with the AA of a cruiser that might be a priority target for a CV, because you can get detected while the CV attacks the cruiser, revealing your position. And for the next run, the CV might be coming for you. As a DD you have the greatest chance against a CV if he not know where you are.

No.... the cruisers are often around a cap, you stick with them, until you can cap. That makes you usefull, because oyu don't die, give addtional AA bonus damage, and you can get objectives, while (depending on the DD) you can even drop your torps

Sticking with team mates doesn't mean, stay at the map border.

 

 

(1) is alone
(2) is in AA cover

 

I personally go mostly with (2), smoking my team mate and look at the CVs focus.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, AndyHill said:

So they decide to have an accident?

Eh what? Nobody decides to have an accident. I mean, sure, some dds try to find other DDs to gun them down. But that's not the point

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, CptBarney said:

does des memes, worcester and california provide deadly AA or any noticeable difference if they were to go hybrid or full AA builds atm?

just wondering since, im gauging whether miss pitty pittsburgh should be shoved into the game lol.

 

Haven't done too much experimentation but in my experience as a CV I notice no difference between a full AA and a standard build.

 

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I personally go mostly with (2), smoking my team mate and look at the CVs focus.

 

At which point the enemy CV can just kill the cruiser since you are useless, multiplying his influence on the match.

You are giving an excellent example of why your approach loses the match. In fact it could even be construed as a deliberate throw.

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

At which point the enemy CV can just kill the cruiser since you are useless, multiplying his influence on the match.

You are giving an excellent example of why your approach loses the match. In fact it could even be construed as a deliberate throw.

No. A CV don't just kill cruisers. Saying that is like:

I just one shot a cruiser with my BB. That's not realistic. Especially, were I wrote, that I smoke the cruiser...
Also he is not multiplying his influence, since the DD is always in range for the cap and can drop torps.

I give an excellent example. how I win matches... Tough I recently died and played bad as DD, guess how? I did not that strategy, but went for the yolo tactic... xD

So, it's a nope.

 

I would rather be interested, if you noticed a change in flak explosion, or if they are still the same and it's just an coincidence, that many run into it so frequently.

[Nibenay78]

12 hours ago, Nov_A said:

I have about 50k games in WoT and claim that arty is more destructive and annoying for any kind of gameplay than CVs in WoWs. Yes, arty is way less omni-powerful, but that is the point. SPGs cant spot and cant tank. They have limited firing angles and cant dig out totally camping enemies, they rely on allies for protection and spotting while CVs can spot for themselves, have okay'ish HP pools and can actually defend themselves. The form of attacking of squads and WoWs map/game design makes it impossible for people to just sit in a corner, street or unreachable hole and camp until the timer runs out and the active, probably winning team gets punished with a draw (which counts as a defeat), sometimes even rewards the camping team with a victory in modes like CW or SH. CVs can reach behind island, wins are made by points and objectives are distributed in a way that you cant just sit and watch the timer tick down.

Both are destructive indeed, my point was there IS counterplay to arty. Facehugging a rock or building is boring, but it generally works. With CV it's often a worse situation. Almost all my arty games was for the sole purpose of sniping the other arty. If this was consistently possible and a viable strategy in wows, I would happily play CV and make an effort to be good at harrassing and killing the enemy CV fast. Something WG doesn't allow generally.

 

How did you survive 50k games of shoot-the-pixel with premium ammo that frequently ignores armor...?? For all my whining here, wows is vastly more fun simply because it doesn't have the "option" to change to some "expensive" ammo that increases your pen by 50-200% or whatevever! Then again the HE spam can get tedious. I am impressed!!!

 

 

[El2aZeR]

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

No. A CV don't just kill cruisers.

 

AHAHAHAHA

Yeah right.

A typical cruiser can be finished off in as little as 2 strikes. Especially when they are parked stationary in a favorable striking location as in the example above.

 

Meanwhile the enemy DD goes and takes the cap, leaving you still useless and at a disadvantage. And if you smoke the cruiser, even better. You are now both blind and useless. Congratulations. At this point the enemy CV doesn't even need to attack your flank anymore since you are winning the match for him.

 

50 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I give an excellent example. how I win matches

 

This somehow implies you win matches at a disproportionate rate compared to others. Clearly your tactics aren't worth learning if that is what they cap out to.

 

51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would rather be interested, if you noticed a change in flak explosion, or if they are still the same and it's just an coincidence, that many run into it so frequently.

 

Duration of flak has been lengthened to address the speed exploit which makes speed juking a lot more difficult and practically impossible for slower planes. Other than that nothing has changed.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

AHAHAHAHA

Yeah right.

A typical cruiser can be finished off in as little as 2 strikes. Especially when they are parked stationary in a favorable striking location as in the example above.

 

Meanwhile the enemy DD goes and takes the cap, leaving you still useless and at a disadvantage. And if you smoke the cruiser, even better. You are now both blind and useless. Congratulations. At this point the enemy CV doesn't even need to attack your flank anymore since you are winning the match for him.

I wouldn't go with theoretical values, where a CV does 20k+ dmg with every strike always. Pretty unrealistic.

Also I wouldn't go with the assumption, that every match the enemy is a unicum CV player.

 

Additionally you are assuming a lot, what could happen, while the reality is different. Unlike you, I know what happens in my matches, you don't, but yes, I'm lying like always...

 

But I can go with the same "assumptions". A single DD can typcially get striked by rockets planes with 3 strikes, thus in your example, the capping DD dies by the enemy CV as soon he caps and while I'm covered by AA, I go then for the cap and we win easily. By the way, I don't know, why I should be blind... those "assumptions" just don't work.

 

It very often feels like, that you just don't undestand me or go with something complete different.

 

It feel like I would say "1+1=2" and you come up with "No, you are wrong, because 2x2 is 4"

2x2 is 4, but has nothing to do, with what I say or mean.  Neither is 1+1=2 wrong.

 

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

This somehow implies you win matches at a disproportionate rate compared to others. Clearly your tactics aren't worth learning if that is what they cap out to.

That also an assumption, it could also imply that, what I said. That my tactic works. But yes, better go solo with a DD, instead of helping team mates and going for caps xD