General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

and that DPM decrease only shows the incompetence of the CV captain, not the power of AA.. 

But I guess it is very hard for you to accept this... 

 

it's not only in the hand of the CV. the player still has a keyboard. It's not in the hand of the CV, if I decide to sit next to 5 Minotaurs, or if I go solo as DD with AA one, firing guns.

It's not in the Hand of the CV, if I sit stationary, or if I start to wiggle around...

 

Otherwise it's also only in the hand of the attacker in general.

[Panzer_Guido]

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

it's not only in the hand of the CV. the player still has a keyboard. It's not in the hand of the CV, if I decide to sit next to 5 Minotaurs, or if I go solo as DD with AA one, firing guns.

It's not in the Hand of the CV, if I sit stationary, or if I start to wiggle around...

 

Otherwise it's also only in the hand of the attacker in general.

and again you ignore the bigger picture. A CV has all the options, can create his own crossfire etc.

 

If I sit beside that "5 minos" (lol anybody seen 5 of those floating citadels in a game since 2018?) I do not contribute much in which case the CV took me out of the game just by being there. Also wiggling and dodging CV is not an option if I broadside the usual Slava/Yamato/Thunderer Deadeye players. But please, you do you and continue to ignore facts and cherry pick your "arguments".

[Pikkozoikum]

26 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

and again you ignore the bigger picture. A CV has all the options, can create his own crossfire etc.

 

If I sit beside that "5 minos" (lol anybody seen 5 of those floating citadels in a game since 2018?) I do not contribute much in which case the CV took me out of the game just by being there. Also wiggling and dodging CV is not an option if I broadside the usual Slava/Yamato/Thunderer Deadeye players. But please, you do you and continue to ignore facts and cherry pick your "arguments".

it's just my experience. A CV doesn't has the speed of light. The approach is seen on the minimap, thus a ships can set the position, before the CV attacks.

When I play cruiser (IJN) or even BB, if possible, I offer first a broadside, and turn away, when the CV strikes. If he doesn't, he wastes so much time. Mostly you bring the CV in a worse position, which gives your own CV more time, to do better.

 

 

(1) If the CV goes straight for the bait, it has success. Especially with ships like the IJN it's quite easy to perform this. It just needs awareness of the enemies.

(2) (3) If the CV starts to circle around, circle with the CV, the CV has in most cases a way larger turning circle

 

The CV needs mostly 60s or even longer to perform such an attack, while the surface ship mostly is interruped for less the time, and in best case, the ship takes not even damag.e

 

Against CV it's a lot about positioning and map awareness and having the control over the map.

 

The CV decides the, if he wants approach or not, but he doesn't decide, how you control your ship.

 

40 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

cherry pick your "arguments".

Though I explain mostly basic mechanics with examples based on experience or statistics.

It's very unhealty for any discussion, if you don't argue around statements and arguments, but try to discredit the writer.

 

I can do the same: "Why do you go with 'false' facts and don't see the real facts?"

Stuff like that doesn't contribute anything to a discussion or proof anything. Especially it's mostly the point of view.

 

When I think about CV strikes, then I think about, how I perform those, or how I play against those. And my experience is, that a surface ship has options. These options don't make a surface ship immune, but it makes it harder to take damage. Thus the probability to take damage is smaller, the survivability is higher and so the victory is more likely.

 

We could go to the trainings room, and then we go with the different options, how it is to strike a stationary ship, and how it is to strike a maneuvering ship

 

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's not in the hand of the CV, if I decide to sit next to 5 Minotaurs, or if I go solo as DD with AA one, firing guns.

 

The irony of the matter is that if you sit next to 5 Minotaurs that also plays heavily into the favor of the enemy CV.

Hence why supposed "counterplay" always works in favor of CVs, as such actual counterplay against CVs does not exist.

[Excavatus]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

it's not only in the hand of the CV. the player still has a keyboard. It's not in the hand of the CV, if I decide to sit next to 5 Minotaurs, or if I go solo as DD with AA one, firing guns.

It's not in the Hand of the CV, if I sit stationary, or if I start to wiggle around...

 

Otherwise it's also only in the hand of the attacker in general.

You write something, I reply to that.. and you ignore my reply and say something else.. 

Let me try again clearly.. 

 

you've said, CV DPM GETS LOWERED through the game.. 

I've said... IT IS UP TO CV CAPTAIN... not the surface ships.. If you get your DPM lowered in your CV, that shows your incompetence.. Not the power of the single or combined AA... 

 

Yes it is possible to completely deny strikes to a CV If the surface ships huddle up enough in numbers.. 

then they give %80 of the map to the enemy to control, which basically means, just by presenting in the battle CV did his job to get the win. 

But this is not the topic I'm replying.. 

 

Let me write again.. 

COMPETENT CV CAPTAINS DO NOT LOSE DPM THROUGHOUT THE BATTLE! 

ONLY INCOMPETENT ONES  DOES THAT! 

And this does not change whatever the surface ships do or don't do in the battle... 

I can try to use paint next time.. 

[El2aZeR]

51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

(1) If the CV goes straight for the bait, it has success.

 

This is a joke and a half given that cross drops still exist and by turning away you are almost guaranteed to eat more torps than you evade.

Also making a quick adjustment to compensate at best takes only marginally longer than a standard straight up attack.

[Miscommunication_dept]

1 minute ago, Excavatus said:

You write something, I reply to that.. and you ignore my reply and say something else.. 

Let me try again clearly.. 

 

you've said, CV DPM GETS LOWERED through the game.. 

I've said... IT IS UP TO CV CAPTAIN... not the surface ships.. If you get your DPM lowered in your CV, that shows your incompetence.. Not the power of the single or combined AA... 

 

Yes it is possible to completely deny strikes to a CV If the surface ships huddle up enough in numbers.. 

then they give %80 of the map to the enemy to control, which basically means, just by presenting in the battle CV did his job to get the win. 

But this is not the topic I'm replying.. 

 

Let me write again.. 

COMPETENT CV CAPTAINS DO NOT LOSE DPM THROUGHOUT THE BATTLE! 

ONLY INCOMPETENT ONES  DOES THAT! 

And this does not change whatever the surface ships do or don't do in the battle... 

I can try to use paint next time.. 

I agree, for me at least DPM usually goes up  due to ships being more spaced out and my still having full or nearly full squadrons.

 

CV dpm is only lowered if you go and get your planes blown up early on  which is of course a misplay.

[Miscommunication_dept]

What do we think of the Enhanced reactions buff? Will it make you change your builds?

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

What do we think of the Enhanced reactions buff? Will it make you change your builds?

 

No. It is still far too expensive for what it does and practically requires you to take Interceptor as well if you don't want your fighters to be despawned easily.

But the effect itself can be worthwhile - if you want it for the extra spotting.

[arquata2019_]

26 minuti fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

No. It is still far too expensive for what it does and practically requires you to take Interceptor as well if you don't want your fighters to be despawned easily.

But the effect itself can be worthwhile - if you want it for the extra spotting.

is there any reason to choose interceptors over fighters you may know?

edit, asking to everyone:

in 2021 summer clan battles/brawls at t10, speaking of carriers, in a cruiser (petro) meta and battleship population (which there will be only one per team for cv slot) should i prefer:

Hakuryuu or Midway as cruiser hunting? because hakuryu has lol good torpedoes and AP bombs, and midway's got 6 torps that hit for 19-20k hp and bombs that slap people left, right and center.

so, should i get hakuryu or midway for those modes? is still hakuryu any good at carrying games in 2021?

[Lordcrafty]

CV DPM doesn't get lowered throughout the game :kekw: it goes up when AA mounts are destroyed because it becomes even easier to land multiple strikes with one squadron.

[Nibenay78]

@Pikkozoikum

 

I'm not sure if you count me as a "casual" type player or not, but I had 6-7 RL friends play this game on and off, way less than myself (lets say 500-5000 battles).

Every single one hated disliked CVs, and the two that still plays occationally (mostly because I play regularly) hate the rework to the point they would probably not play if I wasn't here.

 

Very anecdotal, I know..but ...

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

You write something, I reply to that.. and you ignore my reply and say something else.. 

Yes, I actually misunderstood you there, but only because of that:

 

5 hours ago, Excavatus said:

But I guess it is very hard for you to accept this... 

It sounds rude, and I don't know, what this guess is contributing to the discussion. Also it was never the topic and not sure what I have to accept or what I doesn't accept. But because of this phrase, I thought you refer to approaches and attacks in general and not about the dpm lose.

 

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

you've said, CV DPM GETS LOWERED through the game.. 

 

I said, the DPM goes down by shooting down planes.

 

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

I've said... IT IS UP TO CV CAPTAIN... not the surface ships.. If you get your DPM lowered in your CV, that shows your incompetence.. Not the power of the single or combined AA... 

I never talked about the competence of me or any player. I mentioned the mechanic, that AA lowers DPM. The only exception are

- AA is deactivated (But than AA can't lower the DPM, because it's not activated *derp*)

- AA is heavily damaged

- AA is very weak (Hello Asashio)

 

But the context was, that someone stated, that the CV is attacking anyone, regardless the strength of the AA

I commented, that in case of ignoring AA the DPM will drop.

And you coming up with, that a player has to be incompetent to lose dpm?

I would like to hear, how you get max dpm (all drops) with a CV against heavy AA, because as soon you lose 1 plane, your DPM is lower.

It is obviously up to the CV player, to manage a as high as possible dpm, but I would say, no CV player will ever archieve max dpm under normal circumstances. (Never losing 1 single plane)

 

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

Let me write again.. 

COMPETENT CV CAPTAINS DO NOT LOSE DPM THROUGHOUT THE BATTLE! 

ONLY INCOMPETENT ONES  DOES THAT! 

Yes, probably I'm incompetent, that I lose planes in a battle

I'm not sure, if you know, what DPM means.

Damage per minute. The highest DPM of a CV would be archieved, if a CV player approaches an enemy with all wings of a squadron.

 

As an example, we go with the following: Every plane would do an average of 5k damage and attacks in a 3x4 Squadron.

 

No AA

- Approach of an enemy and drop the first wing (often something like 30s-60s, we go with 30s for the easier calculation)

- Drop the second wing (~15s)

- Drop the third wing (~15s)

 

The damage would be 3x4x5000 , all planes attack, 60,000 damage in 1 minute and if we keep up doing this for 10 minutes, it would be 600,000 damage.

 

Now with AA

- Approach of an enemy and drop the first wing (often something like 30s-60s, we go with 30s for the easier calculation)

- Drop the second wing (~15s)

- Third wing lost by AA

 

Following attacks perform same: 30 seconds approach, second wing drops in 15s. We get 45s squadron attacks with 2x4 planes = 40,000 damage. (53,

333 dpm)

We can perform 13.3 of these 45s-attacks in 10 minutes. 0.3 attacks doesn't exist, but for the easier calculation, we let them count.

13.3 x 40,000 = 532,000 total damage in 10 mintues

 

DPM loss via AA.

 

So I don't know, why you bring up compentent vs incompetent relation, when it was about the mechanic and not the skill gap. The mechanic exists no matter of the skill of the player.

It's obviously up to the player, how to manage around this mechanic and to get the highest possible dpm out of it. But that wasn't the topic and a good player is also not immune to this mechanic.

 

 

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

I can try to use paint next time.. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

42 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

@Pikkozoikum

 

I'm not sure if you count me as a "casual" type player or not, but I had 6-7 RL friends play this game on and off, way less than myself (lets say 500-5000 battles).

Every single one hated CVs, and the two that still plays occationally (mostly because I play regularly) hates the rework even more.

 

Very anecdotal, I know..but ...

It's obvious, that many people hate CV. Though people hated the RTS as well. They hate also Artillery in WoT. Also champions like Yuumi is hated in LoL. It's because of a special design, that feels often unfair for a single person, even if it's not.

 

I think, if we would have the Action play earlier, and the Rework would be the RTS, people would rage heavily, how OP and broken that would be. Only the current state matters, not the past. Also the past is often better reviewed, if someone is unhappy with a current state.

 

The reason why I'm fine with the rework is, because I compare it with the RTS and all the issues, that I had with the RTS are solved with the rework. So it doesn't matter to me "how bad" the rework is, it's still better than the RTS.

Also maybe because it's I'm a 90s kid and I'm used to hard games. But also that I accept asymmetric game designs, where different classes have different impacts and also I like simulations (Simulations are never fair, they are realistic). I don't have the view of "with my skill I have to be able to win against everything".

 

For me it's improtant, that the game is balanaced class-wise (That all crusiers are valid, and not only russian and US crusiers), furthermore, that all ships are more or less viable. And that it is fun to play against other ships.

Of course it's not fun taking 3 cits from AP bombs, but neither it is fun to take a torpedo from a DD. But that's part of the game, and those elements shouldn't be too frustrating.

 

What itfrustrating for me in other games as an example is Warthunder. I play the japanese planes. Those are squishy, slow, weak armament and only some have the advantage of very good turning.

Overall, most japanese planes are weak. That's unfun. When I'm slow and also squishy, then I want at least good weapons... But the design fails there often.

 

The frustrating part in wows are for me DDs, especially in a BB. It feels like I'm too depending on DDs especially.

 

Sorry for the big text :3

 

 

[AndyHill]

The air strike consumable / weapon system on the Dutch cruisers (why not give one for the Japanese in stead considering they actually had naval air power?) could be one route towards removing carriers from the game while retaining the element of air power in the game for those who absolutely need to have it. However, I don't know why but for some reason I can't help thinking that it's just going to be another disastrous new thing that will make the game worse.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

The air strike consumable / weapon system on the Dutch cruisers (why not give one for the Japanese in stead considering they actually had naval air power?) could be one route towards removing carriers from the game while retaining the element of air power in the game for those who absolutely need to have it. However, I don't know why but for some reason I can't help thinking that it's just going to be another disastrous new thing that will make the game worse.

I think multiple ships should get that. I don't like exclusive mechanics, that makes them too specific and nesscary for competitive. but if the mechanic is good, maybe we will get more of that.

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

but if the mechanic is good, maybe we will get more of that.

This specific kind of a cause-effect relationship does not exist in WoWS. 

[159Hunter]

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So I don't know, why you bring up compentent vs incompetent relation, when it was about the mechanic and not the skill of the player.

Because you cannot look at them seperately. They are heavily intertwined. So much so that skill defines how effective the defensive mechanic (of another player) is. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

7 hours ago, Excavatus said:

COMPETENT CV CAPTAINS DO NOT LOSE DPM THROUGHOUT THE BATTLE! 

ONLY INCOMPETENT ONES  DOES THAT! 

Chiefff.... question for you...  in CV, I only GAIN DPM during the battle. 

Because there's less of them, less AA --> and I can creep closer and delete them faster.

Now, the question: where the hell is my mega-competent unicum badge. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I said, the DPM goes down by shooting down planes.

It does not, as long as I keep a squad "ready to hit" I will still have the same DPM.

Only if I lose so much planes that I cannot hit effectively anymore will it affect DPM.

But that will usually not happen if you are playing somewhat smart.

 

5 hours ago, Lordcrafty said:

CV DPM doesn't get lowered throughout the game :kekw: it goes up when AA mounts are destroyed because it becomes even easier to land multiple strikes with one squadron.

Exactly. The only exception might be FDR.

Because at the start it doesn't really matter how much AA, it will get the full strike in anyway.

And in the end maybe the effectivity goes down, because you cannot do 15k damage if there is only 10k left... 

[El2aZeR]

7 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

is there any reason to choose interceptors over fighters you may know?

 

Interceptors cannot be despawned by enemy fighters, but they cannot spot either.

That's all.

 

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The reason why I'm fine with the rework is, because I compare it with the RTS and all the issues, that I had with the RTS are solved with the rework.

 

Objectively speaking the rework solved none of the problems that RTS had while adding its own on top, as such the rework is way worse than RTS was. Your personal views on the matter are irrelevant in the face of facts.

 

[Nibenay78]

6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's obvious, that many people hate CV. Though people hated the RTS as well. They hate also Artillery in WoT. Also champions like Yuumi is hated in LoL. It's because of a special design, that feels often unfair for a single person, even if it's not.

 

I think, if we would have the Action play earlier, and the Rework would be the RTS, people would rage heavily, how OP and broken that would be. Only the current state matters, not the past. Also the past is often better reviewed, if someone is unhappy with a current state.

I dislike Artillery there also, but at least they have some massive disadvantages and it's not impossible to snipe them back with arty. Here CVs are practically immune by design to other CVs, at least to the extent it's a complete waste of time to snipe them away at the start of the game in your own CV.

I have not played LoL but I did play Dota, and the champions/carry characters there were extremely weak at the start of the game and supports were relatively stronger but trailed off vastly by the end.

 

Aside for having a minimum of derettent to not be rushed down, CVs need no support really to do their job. They start out strong and grow stronger. Indeed the current state is what matters, and it's as bad I'd rather have CVs removed than anything else.

 

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The reason why I'm fine with the rework is, because I compare it with the RTS and all the issues, that I had with the RTS are solved with the rework. So it doesn't matter to me "how bad" the rework is, it's still better than the RTS.

Also maybe because it's I'm a 90s kid and I'm used to hard games. But also that I accept asymmetric game designs, where different classes have different impacts and also I like simulations (Simulations are never fair, they are realistic). I don't have the view of "with my skill I have to be able to win against everything".

It seems some of your problems was playing AA weak ships left you helpless. Well then maybe you should play AA strong ships, or stay close. It's kinda like the "fleets" you mentioned earlier, except before spesific ships had that spesific job and good teamplay on the AA ships part was just to help out. This role is mostly gone together with flanking, sneaking, ambushing or just moving a bit aside to make crossfire.

 

edit: Started playing games in 86-87 so I'm sure I have touched by a few of the "hard games" with little balance or wonky mechanics. I expect different in 2021 by a multi-million company with hundreds of employees. 

 

Quote

For me it's improtant, that the game is balanaced class-wise (That all crusiers are valid, and not only russian and US crusiers), furthermore, that all ships are more or less viable. And that it is fun to play against other ships.

Of course it's not fun taking 3 cits from AP bombs, but neither it is fun to take a torpedo from a DD. But that's part of the game, and those elements shouldn't be too frustrating.

Of course all ships should be valid, but thats another of WGs failings tbh. Then again to have say 100 ships with different feel and configuration, some will be "generally" more stronger or weaker than others.

It's always frustrating to die, but it's vastly easier to avoid torpedoes from luck/forethought/skill/etc than any if the CVs 99% guided strikes. I take devstrikes from torpedoes happily compared to the incessant harrassment of any CV. To the point that when I am clearly going to live <10 secs and the CV is coming for the death blow, I'll just show broadside to everyone else.

 

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What itfrustrating for me in other games as an example is Warthunder. I play the japanese planes. Those are squishy, slow, weak armament and only some have the advantage of very good turning.

Overall, most japanese planes are weak. That's unfun. When I'm slow and also squishy, then I want at least good weapons... But the design fails there often.

As it should be unfun, just the same to lose one of your major strong traits/advantages in playing a AA ship. In minotaur it's often more detrimental to me to actually shoot at planes than to just remain hidden. Sure it can make some flak and newbies can ram them, but since I tend to stay up front with this ship to help DDs or push a flank, it's quite an amount of steel that gets thrown my way. It's not uncommon to end up with 1-2 mill pot dmg just from behing spotted a very tiny fraction of the gametime, and one can only dodge so much when several BBs open fire at the same time.

If the air spot range for Minotaur was smaller than AA range, I'd probably just keep it turned off as long as planes are in long range AA and not going for me spesifically but someone else.

 

Quote

The frustrating part in wows are for me DDs, especially in a BB. It feels like I'm too depending on DDs especially.

 

Sorry for the big text :3

I count that as part of a BBs weakness. I played a LOT of BB for a while and I see it as my job to assist DDs with my insane alfa, range, DPM. After all they are the "counter" to BBs in this game, and despite this, I enjoyed found it fair that CVs generally was strong vs BBs.

[ObiWankov]

9 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

is there any reason to choose interceptors over fighters you may know?

edit, asking to everyone:

in 2021 summer clan battles/brawls at t10, speaking of carriers, in a cruiser (petro) meta and battleship population (which there will be only one per team for cv slot) should i prefer:

Hakuryuu or Midway as cruiser hunting? because hakuryu has lol good torpedoes and AP bombs, and midway's got 6 torps that hit for 19-20k hp and bombs that slap people left, right and center.

so, should i get hakuryu or midway for those modes? is still hakuryu any good at carrying games in 2021?

 

you want damage that sticks, so haku or fdr it is (mvr got nerfed too hard)

[Cippalippus]

I would say that all the CVs have a place in a T10 clan battle, except the british one which is by far the worst. The Midway has amazing bombers, whereas the FDR has a couple of shortcomings that make me doubt about its effectiveness in a CW.

[ObiWankov]

17 minutes ago, Cippalippus said:

I would say that all the CVs have a place in a T10 clan battle, except the british one which is by far the worst. The Midway has amazing bombers, whereas the FDR has a couple of shortcomings that make me doubt about its effectiveness in a CW.

maybe in storm league