General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

28 minutes ago, Pogglebox said:

My earlier point, now I've had time to calm down, was that there is no incentive to stop a CV focussing a well organised AA defence. CV's can, and all to often do just launch wave after wave at one particular target with impunity, regardless of the relative strength of the AA they come up against because they have an infinite supply of resources that get recycled too quickly. 

Though the dpm gets lowered by shooting planes down. 1 strike is less than 3 strikes. Also once a CV is low on planes, sending 1-3 single planes into heavy AA does nothing. You might test it yourself at higher CV tiers

[Pukovnik7]

 

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

You are caught in the cliché of the almighty omnipresent CV, which keeps you from taking the next step in your evolution as a player. CVs change the rules of the game, that is right, but in a different way. They reduce the viability of flanking maneuvers, which reduces the tactical element of the game. That is a very negative impact. Apart from that, they are bound by certain rules.

They can find you anywhere, but it may take them a disproportionate amount of time to get to you, which is up to you and your choice of positioning. They can attack you anywhere and anytime, but doing so they will not attack anybody else, which works in your favor. You are a BB, you got great AA and torpedo protection. Whoever attacks you instead of a DD or cruiser is wasting his potential, while your CV hopefully is not. If you take 20k damage instead of your DD getting killed that may already be victory on a silver platter.

I am playing at Tier III right now, where as far as I know carriers are the weakest. And it is not just that carriers reduce the viability of flanking maneuvers. They reduce viability of destroyers. Destroyers in a non-CV game are a primary reconnaissance and harrassment element - they scout, they outflank, they annoy the enemy with hit-and-run attacks (be it HE shellfire or torpedoes), then they fall back to support cruisers and battleships - to protect them from enemy destroyers and to torpedo enemy ships as opportunity presents itself. And should a destroyer slip past the enemy, it can basically win a game by itself.

 

With a carrier, all of this is basically impossible, because destroyer can be found in a matter of minutes, and then permaspotted to death. If you don't have a smoke, you are either a cruiser or a goner - you will sit with battleships and hoping CV goes for an obvious, fat target, and then you will shell and/or torpedo ships as they come into range. Or you will go out scouting, get spotted by a CV, and then either killed by rocket planes or by a battleship you haven't even seen around. If you do have a smoke, then you can counteract a CV - to a point.

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

Yes, a CV coming too close to the cap is a nice present. You however subscribe to a flawed idea of "payback", of this manly duel player against player. There is no need for payback. It's about winning as a team. Your payback is not to kill the enemy CV, but to make him rank low on the enemy team. It will hurt him more than any costly payback. A gift is literally that CV that plays from the corner of the map. It takes a CV around 1 min to cover 20km of distance. Even then he is not striking, but he needs to fly around his prospective target for a while to get the right angle. Then he strikes, depending on the AA around you, he can make a second strike or not. If he gets a good drop he can do pretty much the damage you would get on a good salvo in Thunderer or Marco Polo or Yamato. Only they get a shot every 30s. A CV squadron you can see coming from 22-30s away, given he goes straight for you. A BB salvo takes 10s to reach you. A Smolensk or Minotaur, or Friesland or Kitakaze or Worcester, you may not even not even be aware of until their HE rains on you for a min straight, melting your HP far beyond what any BB could do.

 

Semantics. I will do what is needed to win, and as I have said, I don't go hunting CVs. But sinking a CV if opportunity presents itself automatically removes huge portion of enemy's spotting capability, as well as the main danger to your own destroyers. Even when a CV is "flying around", he is spotting targets. And that is the main danger from a CV. A battleship or a cruiser will be seen by a destroyer long before they spot it, and even if they have a good spotter DD on their own side, you can still avoid a long-range salvo (though not always) and then try and slip away. Hide between the islands and the like. But CV can keep you permaspotted, which means that you have to be in a group of ships, which means that you cannot carry out your duties as a destroyer - unless you have a smoke and pair up with another smokey destroyer, which is actually quite fun, but CVs also appear in games where not all destroyers have smoke. And even a good destroyer-killing cruiser or a gunboat DD still has to obey the rules. You can predict where it will be, where it will come from, even if you don't see it, because it is a ship. It has limited speed, limited options for maneuvering depending on the terrain. If you know what you are doing, you can literally pull it along by the nose all day long while keeping other enemy ships spotted... but if the cruiser's captain is smarter than you, he will run you into a corner against a teammate, or slip out of the view and then ambush you - but if you notice what he is doing, you can ambush him. A good cruiser or battleship captain will know what destroyers are supposed to do, where they are likely to be and what they will be doing. Regardless of which ships and how many of them are nearby, it all comes down to Tactics 101: guessing and outplaying the opponent. There are no set rules, no predetermined outcomes, merely guidelines. You adapt, or you die.

 

CV has no such limitations. Its aircraft are far faster than any ship, it has more of them. It can spot you anytime and keep you spotted for as long as it wishes. And at low tiers at least, AAA isn't much of a threat - unless literally the entire fleet groups together. But if the entire fleet does group together, then you basically remove the tactical element from the game. No more scouting, no more outthinking the enemy. It comes down to sheer attrition, and that is definitely not fun.

2 hours ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

CVs on average are not killing more ships than other classes. They also do not do more damage. You can verify that statement on wows-numbers.com. Any nerf would likely hit 95% of the CV players hard and render them useless. Every player can make a personal choice to pick AA-skills and modules and thus nerf the effectiveness of CVs. The real problem is that CVs still are not in the game frequently enough to justify investing skills into it. That is the same issue we had with CV before the rework. They were not powerful by design, they were made powerful by 99% of all players skipping AA-builds for the valid reason that there was one CV in 10 battles.

 

The balance is simple. Attacks are uniform and repetitive. The outcome is almost predetermined. If ships have strong AA, the CV will lose a lot of planes for one mediocre drop and not be able to set floodings or fires. It will run out of planes without accumulating noteable damage, a.k.a be underpowered.

If the AA is weak compared to the tankiness of planes, a CV will make several drops with minor losses and never run out of planes. He will do so on every drop since all drops are basically the same trade-off of plane HP vs. AA-dpm.

In between is a thin line of balance, that allows good CV players to strike without getting deplaned, while bad CVs get deplaned. This is where we are now.

If CVs did more damage than BBs then one could argue they are overpowered. If they did less, they would be underpowered. Right now they are in the middle. Any story about getting rekt by a CV is just as anecdotal as the triple/quadruple citadel hits we see in compilations.

And this focus on strength of AAA is a massive problem because it means that ships have to group together, which means that you remove massive portion of a tactical element from the game. This is especially true at lower tiers, where you have to group essentially your entire fleet together to have a viable AA screen.

 

Also: Read again the bolded part and think about why it is a problem. Because that is one of the main, if not the main, problem with CVs.

[Profilus]

Scrolled down and up several times but didnt see a question mark. So what was the question again?

[Pukovnik7]

8 minutes ago, Profilus said:

Scrolled down and up several times but didnt see a question mark. So what was the question again?

CVs themselves are. Basically, how to deal with CV specifics (permaspotting, ignoring terrain) in a non-smoke DD? Or any DD for a longer period of time (you run out of smokes eventually).

[Itwastuesday]

Be in a place where the enemy team can't shoot you while you're Just Dodging. Also, throw away all fun and prepare to be bored. 

 

The quote about AA builds made me realize that it's weird that there's this expectation that you should even have AA builds. Why? There's no such thing as an anti-bb build, or an anti-cruiser build or anti-dd build, and those classes are plentiful. Why should you have to spend on AA skills and modules?

[Profilus]

28 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

CVs themselves are. Basically, how to deal with CV specifics (permaspotting, ignoring terrain) in a non-smoke DD? Or any DD for a longer period of time (you run out of smokes eventually).

When you choose to play DD, then first you pray its FDR and then you pray its someone useless with it like me.

[Lootboxer]

32 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Be in a place where the enemy team can't shoot you while you're Just Dodging. Also, throw away all fun and prepare to be bored. 

 

The quote about AA builds made me realize that it's weird that there's this expectation that you should even have AA builds. Why? There's no such thing as an anti-bb build, or an anti-cruiser build or anti-dd build, and those classes are plentiful. Why should you have to spend on AA skills and modules?

And the best is that even if you will waste multiple skill points more then half of the time it will be totally useless as you will not even see CV in most of the games and even if you will have Cv game he may decide to attack somebody else anyway.

[Pukovnik7]

1 hour ago, Itwastuesday said:

Be in a place where the enemy team can't shoot you while you're Just Dodging. Also, throw away all fun and prepare to be bored. 

 

The quote about AA builds made me realize that it's weird that there's this expectation that you should even have AA builds. Why? There's no such thing as an anti-bb build, or an anti-cruiser build or anti-dd build, and those classes are plentiful. Why should you have to spend on AA skills and modules?

Same thing as everything about carriers: they are another dimension. I will happily burn down BB with HE same way I will do it to a CA, CL or DD... there are differences in approach and, obviously, time required, but the principle always stays the same. So there is no need for an anti-BB build. It comes down merely to tactics (against a BB, you can come in, set a fire and GTFO; rinse and repeat, while keeping him spotted... you can't do that against a destroyer, in most cases, but there are other tactics against destroyers). But you can't shoot down airplanes with your main armament, they are literally in another environment (air) and require completely different approach... unless a CV player misplays, you will never get him under your guns the way you will with all other ships, and he can strike you with impunity.

Of course, as pointed out, sometimes you get no carriers in a game - but then other times you get two fleet carriers, so...

[Odo_Toothless]

After the game of Zao where I got 4 AP bomb citadel hits in first German CV attack for about 30k, I think there should be two rules assigned to rockets/bombs:

 

1. always 1/10 of penetration on DD from HE/AP  to make DD more playable

2. no citadel penetrations on cruisers

 

Without such rules, games with good CV are horror to the weakest classes, which should be protected. We must remember that every spot from planes = possible damage taken from other ships too. If some CV could be weaker by such changes, then they can always ballance this in another way.

 

And if everything stays as it is, becouse it's fun, then another rule should be adopted: No chat bans for swearing on CV.

 

btw. something is totally broken, when ex. DM could do nothing to bow on CV, becouse all his dozens of shells was shattered on deck, while she was torn apart by planes. CV cannot be unpenetrable. But this is obvious ...

[Lordcrafty]

6 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

After the game of Zao where I got 4, probably AP citadel hits in first German CV attack for about 30k, I think there should be two rules:

 

1. always 1/10 of penetration on DD from HE/AP to make DD more playable

2. no citadel penetrations on cruisers

 

Without such rules, games with good CV are horror to the weakest classes, which should be protected. We must remember that every spot from planes = possible damage taken from other ships too.

kekw, my god your complaints are about the right subject but otherwise you're so clueless it's cute.

[Lordcrafty]

1: literally no changes for BBs
2: you clearly don't know how you got hit for that much damage in the first place or would you like to explain it to me again?

 

honestly, how can you expect to make reasonable suggestions for change if you don't even understand what happened in the first place?

[Odo_Toothless]

17 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

1: literally no changes for BBs
2: you clearly don't know how you got hit for that much damage in the first place or would you like to explain it to me again?

 

honestly, how can you expect to make reasonable suggestions for change if you don't even understand what happened in the first place?

So enlight me "guru", how to save 2/3 of ex. Zao HP in one AP bomber raid (2 attacks).  I clearly know I can't and You clearly know that too. So stop trolling. Btw. I was correctly positioned to those planes in parallel, just RNG told me - it's my end.

 

 

Changes to BB ? They can live with that.

[Lordcrafty]

13 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

So enlight me "guru", how to save 2/3 of ex. Zao HP in one AP bomber raid (2 attacks).  I clearly know I can't and You clearly know that too. So stop trolling. Btw. I was correctly positioned to those planes in parallel, just RNG told me - it's my end.

 

 

Changes to BB ? They can live with that.

ahh, you said "first attack" so i assumed you meant one drop not multiple, still tell me this person's name so that I can kill them and take their RNG. Going broadside to the bombers will usually lower the chance drastically too, but situationally I can see how that might not be possible, especially in zao. Zao just suffers to CVs man, it's not fair. I'm just going to say that I don't see why there's a reason for MvR to get nerfed specifically as she is already weaker than her counterparts and that any other CV could have done this (or worse with the same godlike RNG).

[Odo_Toothless]

7 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

 I don't see why there's a reason for MvR to get nerfed specifically as she is already weaker than her counterparts and that any other CV could have done this (or worse with the same godlike RNG).

I don't care about MvR or something else, named it whatever when X CV is doing this for one of the weakest ships. Spotting while farming is only possible in this unballanced game. DD got 1/10 AP penetration rule, italian SAP got too and why CV can do whatever they want ? Let them farm BB and spot other classes for less damage,. This would be a ballance.

[Nov_A]

31 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

I don't care about MvR or something else, named it whatever when X CV is doing this for one of the weakest ships. Spotting while farming is only possible in this unballanced game. DD got 1/10 AP penetration rule, italian SAP got too and why CV can do whatever they want ? Let them farm BB and spot other classes for less damage,. This would be a ballance.

Well, you should care - because the state of MvR is the point. They nerfed its bomb accuracy and reliability to absolute RNG levels, making target selection a joke and attacks a pure gamble. Before the patch, you could actually punish BBs like Kremlins and Thunderers, or ships like Stalingrad and Petro (notice a pattern?) for either being too passive or stuck nose in. Now it does not matter if you try your luck on a dodging Zao or stationary Kremlin, you can hit the first for triple cit and miss the other completly - multiple times.

[Lordcrafty]

16 minutes ago, Odo_Toothless said:

I don't care about MvR or something else, named it whatever when X CV is doing this for one of the weakest ships. Spotting while farming is only possible in this unballanced game. DD got 1/10 AP penetration rule, italian SAP got too and why CV can do whatever they want ? Let them farm BB and spot other classes for less damage,. This would be a ballance.

what you're suggesting sounds like a nerf to every CV besides FDR and maybe kaga/indom.

[Odo_Toothless]

24 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

what you're suggesting sounds like a nerf to every CV besides FDR and maybe kaga/indom.

As i said - those reasonable changes could be ballanced in every CV. What is a problem with that ? Some will got nerfs, some buffs and it will be ok. Are for easy farming on every target >100k in every game becouse reasons ? CV can always do this damage on BB , not on destroyers and cruisers which many of them are softest ones and are often so easy killed by just her spot.

 

btw. I am playing CV too and every player should have the same chances to win a match, no matter the class. Now You can be even No 1 and if CV is good, he will take this chance from You without too much hassle.

[KillStealBoss]

The CV on T3 is having a Fiesta. No AA at all. The T4 CV has somewhat a harder time in T5 but still it'll not stop him. The T6 CV that bumps into T8 AA well struggle, same with T8 CV Vs T10 AA. Though not always and depends on the player. The T4 CV won't do much dmg on you but yes he will spot you and ruin your plans. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 hours ago, Pogglebox said:

My earlier point, now I've had time to calm down, was that there is no incentive to stop a CV focussing a well organised AA defence. CV's can, and all to often do just launch wave after wave at one particular target with impunity, regardless of the relative strength of the AA they come up against because they have an infinite supply of resources that get recycled too quickly. 

A dumb one might. And yes then you can get a Mino down, if you really need. Or a Halland + a Mino. Or Wooster...

At the same "expense" you could get two BBs, for example. Or the enemy CV. 

 

It depends on position. If that Mino and the Halland want to get your CV-behind, yes they need to be killed. 

If you are in FDR and they are very very close and the next BB is 3x that far, maybe get them. 

But if you can delete a BB (or two) that is just as close or even closer... hmm... it will be costly, and what will it deliver?

A few high caliber shells will do it faster, while you can do something more useful.

 

It is kinda the same as a DD that is going for that big fat Missouri, while he'd be better off capping. 

Probably a bit more detrimental. That DD will not lose all strike power unless he makes a mistake.

While the CV, unless he is quite good, might end up with "only half the guns still working and torpedo system destroyed". 

 

[TheFrili]

I have an opinion why WG is pushing the CV: Way before the CV rework WG was planing to make some "big" move to improve the game, and the World of Warplanes dev team just got a lot of free time. They decided that it will be profitable to include the Warplanes into the current game mechanics and so they pushed the CV. It was expensive and took a lot of time, therefore if it would fail, the responsibles would have to admit that they misjudged the playerbase and they would probably get lose face over it, or kicked out. So we got CV-s that needed to get around 15-25% popularity among the players, but it did not happen, i heard the popularity of CV-s is around 5-8% (if got hard numbers please corect me). However still fewer players play them as it was planned or announced for the WG senior management. So the devs behind the CV rework need to push planes to every possible aspect of the game, otherviese the whole rework could be considered a bad investment. That puts them in a bad place, If the CV-s fail they lose, so they risk making the players quitting the game, becasue the failure of the game has the same consequency for them as the failure of the CV rework. They have nothing to lose.

 

CV-s have no place in the current format in the game. I thing WG for the reasons i mentioned above pushes it, but it is ruining the game experience. CV-CV interaction is non existent, they are only to deal damage and ruines the gameplay in a game that is not the cheapest one to play in the first place. I plan to quit this game when the Subs arrive, but try to enjoy as mutch CV free games as possible for the time being.

[Excavatus]

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though the dpm gets lowered by shooting planes down. 1 strike is less than 3 strikes. Also once a CV is low on planes, sending 1-3 single planes into heavy AA does nothing. You might test it yourself at higher CV tiers

and that DPM decrease only shows the incompetence of the CV captain, not the power of AA.. 

But I guess it is very hard for you to accept this... 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I still poop my pants when someone mentions we should be happy a carrier focuses us 'because in that time he is not attacking anyone else'. Facepalm.

[Excavatus]

11 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

 

I am playing at Tier III right now, .....

Topic is merged into CV discussion topic. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Excavatus said:

and that DPM decrease only shows the incompetence of the CV captain, not the power of AA.. 

But I guess it is very hard for you to accept this... 

There's 2 ways to avoid the DPM-decrease...

1. Easy: Just do not attack those ships that have more AA than the rest...

2. Harder: GitGud. All or most FLAK is avoidable. Even DPS is a calculated risk. 

 

But online, I see CVs flying into FLAK, attacking a Halland when he is accompanied by his Mino and Wooster buddies...

Well yes they suffer DPM loss. But when I see what they do their DPM wouldn't be that high anyway. 

Like, attacking a BB from the front with torpedoes, using AP-bombs on a DD....

Those torpedoes also being not full-aim (AKA going left, right and everywhere..) or dropped too short (not arming).

 

On the other hand, we have the Smolensk sitting in smoke, firing his guns, becoming detected.

And then going REEEE REEEE when I megablap him with 8 torps from FDR. Yes CV OP. Duh. 

It was actually lucky because the Iowa a bit further away was still reloading... and the Thunderer, too.

 

Yes I have seen it all happen. However... I also see cruisers shooting AP at an angled BB, and such. 

And even in CB an Akizuki smokes up 6km from my Seattle, after failing to torp me... so... hmm.

 

Part of it is also you unicums not taking the average level of play into account.

I am (sort of) trying to GitGud. Most random players do not even have an idea how to.

[geschlittert]

7 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

I don't care about MvR or something else, named it whatever when X CV is doing this for one of the weakest ships. Spotting while farming is only possible in this unballanced game. DD got 1/10 AP penetration rule, italian SAP got too and why CV can do whatever they want ? Let them farm BB and spot other classes for less damage,. This would be a ballance.

Hey hey hey. Maybe you dont care about BBs, but i do. Playing vs CVs in my BB is a pain in the [edited], since you cant actually dodge most of the stuff unlike other classes.