General CV related discussions.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

stuff.. It would be interesting to play without HP bars though..

WarThunder mostly uses no HP Bars, it's interesting, but it has also it weaknesses.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

As mr crappy CV player, I dont find it awfully hard to make make perfect drops. Basically again it's in the attackers hands not defender. Even DDs have random spreads on torpedoes.

TBs have also spreads, and yes, it's easier to hit, but they also do less damage. An AP Bomb does less damage than AP shells, Torpedos do mostly less than DD-torpedos.

And saying it's in the hand of the attacker is a lazy answer, you can say that always.

You didn't hit with a BB? Oh, it's in the hand of the attacker to aim better and to calculate, how he tries to dodge :P

The Defender has 2 jobs,

1. Make the first strike hard has possible

2. Deny further strikes (Mostly via AA)

 

1. It's harder to hit a maneuvering ship, than a stationary ship

2. even while the flight of rockets and bomb drop the maneuvering can make the drop harder. A few degree can decide, if you get hit or not. That is pure logic. The bombs cover less area, when the ship is not perfectly aligned.

 

And what I don't understand, why so many people are so dishonest about the reality: Yes, a ship can angle 90° against a bomber drop and still take 3 cit hits from AP Bombs. But it's way more unlikely than sitting stationary

But same counts for surface combat. You can perfect angle and still take huge hits. I angled agains a Kremlin in Shikihima and took 3 times in a row 10k dmg.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sure but then the allrounder can count as a baseline for each stat/attribute/callitwhatever

Not sure, what you mean here, but an allrounder is mostly good in everything. While others are very good in something and bad in something. Gearing was for me always an allrounder in old days. Not sure about nowadays.

But for a baselin of stats/attributes and so on doesn't matter for CV vs other classes. Stats are more important for interal class balancing, imo

For example the MvR was way stronger than other CVs, it got nerfed, though no idea, how good it is now.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

This is not a disadvantage, if one team has a CV so does the other.

1. In Clan battles you could actually pick CV vs BB

2. It's not about both a have CV, but about, if a good player is in CV and in the other Team a crappy player in the CV.

As I described in my example. I see teams, that get stomped, so I can't use my HP pool to stop a stomp by baiting enemies. If a good player is in a surface ship, he might tank so much, that he can carry a game. but if you have only potatoes in a team, those will lose the ships fast, and a CV has no chance to stop that.

3. It's a weird view, you can also say, what is the advantage of a DD? Concealment? Doesn't matter, the other team has also DDs ^^

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

I suggest we allow 3-4 CVS pr side and see how amazingly fun it will be for everyone else.

Or a 12 BB vs 12 BB match. There is reason, why we have soft and hard caps.

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Again, both both teams have one less capper so kinda irrelevant stat/attribute 

Again, this counts for everything. BBs feature is tankiness and big HP pools? Both teams have BBs. Only the Radar could make a difference, but that's a matchmaker issue.

When we talk about ship types features, then it doesn't make much sense to say, that both teams have these ship types :P

 

-A CV has high speed planes? Both teams have CVs

-BBs are tanky? Both teams have BBs

-DDs have good concealment? Both teams have DDs.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

No other ships rips apart armor (destroys AA mounts) with each strike, while ALSO having the benefit that any other damage done by anyone else will also lower the defences effectively. Thus increasing DPM.

No, that's the wrong view. You have a certain DPM. The AA lowers the DPM. Destroying AA is lowering the DPM reduction. You don't get more DPM, it gets less reduced ;)

 

When another ship is not destroying your turrets, you also don't get your dpm increased ^^

 

Beside that, I think HE-Spamming BBs are the best to destroy AA mounts. I never had an issue with destroyed AA tbh. When I play Shiki, my AA guns are mostly above 80 or 90%, losing 1 or 2 guns  now and then with ~60 aa turrets is not a big impact.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

A CV has all the better attributes which is most of the time relevant and bad attributes are most of the time irrelevant.

Then lets decrease/remove the attributes, if it's too high. Most are only complaining, instead of trying to improve the CV.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

And then we can consider their worse attributes. It's generally how ships are balanced to some extent.

Yes, but as I said, I think we don't have real balance in attributes. I think the only important balance should be in impact if it's inter-class. That means one class shouldn't have much more impact than others. CVs and DDs are the most impactful classes imo. Though the RTS CV had even more.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Before I liked the occational CV match, even though they had a massive impact.

Now I report every CV player I meet and would be happy to have the entire class removed along with all AA effect, even if that would lessen the immersion. Just gone.

Probably a personal preference, but playing aa-weak ships were quite boring against RTS-CV. You might watch some videos, where those get one shotted one after another :P

Reporting for playing a class is not nice :P

Though I also don't see the reference to what you have quoted there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Why bother? WG doesn't give a single excrement about suggestions here. Ranting at least feels better, even if it's also irrelevant. Plus I need something to do while waiting for the Minotaur get back to port after being nuked by some CV.

If you want, we could play a few matches together, I play then DD. And maybe I could see, why it is so unfun for you^^

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

But why bother playing anything else then? it is not perfect rock/paper/sciccors, but its close enough. Sure there are expections but overall it kinda works that way.

1 vs 1 is certainly not 12 vs 12 NOR is it a duel in a 12 vs 12 match. If a CV goes for me in 12vs12 we both knows that even if I'm alone for the moment, I can't spend the next 3 minutes rushing the CV in a BB without anyone seeing me and engaging.

That said I had something like 70-80% winrate in CV in the brawls and I consider myself pretty crap in CV.

Why people bother to play support in league of legends? It's also the weakest class ;)

In the brawl my CV enemies lost by default. It was not even close... They can't do the damage in time, just not possible. I mean I would have to go AFK to lose^^

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Basically the CV is like having a smolensk player that can see and shoot the entire map. Due to range he will not have the best DPM but he will never stop hitting you. Great fun! Also if his aim is on you, everone else sees you! 

That's what DDs do, except that DDs are slower, but have other options like invisible (until the torpedos get spotted) strikes with torpedos. Though taking the Smolesnk as example is pretty weird. You should could go with similar designs like Artillery of WoT, Abathur from Heroes of the Storm or, guess what: Any Naval battle game. Steel Ocean, War Thunder etc

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

For many people, yes. Also didn't we agree no-flyzones didn't stop devstrikes back then? But again, right now I'd be happy to lose all my Carriers and have the crap class removed.

Sounds more like a rant :P

That's also not how you improve gameplay and sounds more selfish than fair. It's like I would play support in LoL and say "I want assasines to be removed, that would improve my gameplay".  Pretty bad approach

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Good good, clearly you're not bothered by playing against a class that effectively is griefing other players.

Griefing is a wrong word imo. I'm not bothered by playing a game with asymetrical class design, which always leads into imbalance. Tell me one game, that has a complex class design, that is also balanced :P

Also I'm a 90s kid, I probably just learnt to play hard games, where it's not always fair, so it's a challenge. Nowadays many games are for the casuals, it has to be easy for everyone. Probably why people rant about

-CV

-HE-Spam

-Range Sniping

and so on

Guess many just want the big damage numbers and win the team game alone ^^

 

I'm not like that, I often play supports, I like team tactics. High damage numbers are nice, no doubt, but I also like the challenge, playing around an enemy CV and win the match

 

I mean, it sounds like, that the definition of griefing is "something that make me lose - griefing" ^^

[enzog_1]

Hi, i want to talk about aircraft carriers. First some context: I'm a Age of Empires player. My favorite gamemode is RTS since i started playing on PC. But in all the games i could play (AoE, starcarft, totalwar, etc) there was always something missing. Like if i played against someone it would just a battle of micro, just a 1v1 on who's the fastest in making things happen. I've always wondered if there would be someday a game that would integrate RTS type of play in a team battle. Where the player would NOT decide but influence the outcoming of the game. Just like another brick in the wall... And then I found  World of Warships. You see for people like me, RTS CVs was the charm of the game. Now don't get me wrong, they were OP as hell and needed to be balanced but the idea was just great and I think it would be a shame to just to throw it away for some damage focused arcade gameplay that is even worse ( it is almost impossible to stop the first wave of attack of a full squadron). Here are some suggestions for the balancing and rework of CVs:

 

1. Make CVs less focused on damage but more on spotting, finishing ships or starting fires/inondations and mostly protecting teammates by rewarding them more credits and XP on these tasks;

 

2. Return to the old RTS gameplay. Of course the rocket planes would be replaced by the old fighters BUT we could conserve the actual "multiple attacks" squadrons so we can, instead of launching 7 or 8 squadrons, only launch 4 squadrons (2 Fighters, 1 Torpedo-Bombers and 1 Bombers). These fighters would have two limits: attacks (straffes) and ammunition. EXAMPLE: a squadron of 9 planes would have 3 attacks but could also be used normally by pursuing enemy planes. When 1/3 of this squadron ammunition is spent 3 planes detach themselves and go back to the carrier. If the last 3 planes of this squadron already spent some of its ammunition the attack distance shall be reduced, just like in the old system. This system would limit the amount of straffes used. Killing enemy planes should be the most rewarded action the CV player could do;

 

3. Make AA more interactive and balanced by letting the players shoot the planes. On ships that have double purpose guns it would be possible to load AA ammunition (on keyboard: HE shells => 1, AP shells => 2, Torpedoes => 3 and AA ammo => 4). This AA ammo would explode in a certain distance and deal a good amount of damage (depending on gun caliber, nation, etc) on planes nearby. If the player hits a plane, the whole squadron takes some damage and lose 1 plane. For ships with single purpose guns AA reinforcement is stronger but is divided in 4 parts( top-left, bottom-left, top-right, bottom-right) instead of 2 (actual left and right). I think this would greatly help Destroyer players and specialize Light Cruisers;

 

4. For the spotting problem: when a ship is detected by airplanes only the cv players can see him on the screen, the rest of his team can only see him on the mini-map (just as if it were out of the line of sight). The reward system would be the time spent spotting the position of the ship and not the spotting damage;

 

5. And finally, make it more difficult for CV players to launch planes. Historicaly, aircraft carriers would launch planes against the wind, this wind mechanism could be integrated in the game. Make the hangar limited again but with a countdown for the planes preparation. Make it impossible to launch planes when the carrier is behind and facing toward an island.

 

These solutions may be obsolete but are, i think, a beginning...

[Pikkozoikum]

@enzog_1 your font color is pretty hard to read with the dark forum scheme :D

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And what I don't understand, why so many people are so dishonest about the reality

 

Because you're the one incapable of facing reality, ever considered that?

[Sunleader]

6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

And what I don't understand, why so many people are so dishonest about the reality: Yes, a ship can angle 90° against a bomber drop and still take 3 cit hits from AP Bombs. But it's way more unlikely than sitting stationary

But same counts for surface combat. You can perfect angle and still take huge hits. I angled agains a Kremlin in Shikihima and took 3 times in a row 10k dmg.

 

You Sure that its the others which are Dishonest here ?

Because Frankly Said. To most of us it looks more like your the one who Denies Reality.

Albeit that might of course not be Intentional by you and merely be down to you being Biased so Strongly that your really not seeing how ridiculous most of your Statements seem to the rest of us.

 

 

Because dont get me Wrong. But Similarities do not mean Equality.

 

A BB Angling even halfwat Decently against another BB basicly gets 70-90% Better Results.

A BB Angling against a CV even if he does Perfectly. Gets maybe 20-30% Better Results.

If Counterplay wont Work in more than Half of the Cases. Most People will Disregard it and not consider it actual Counterplay.

 

 

 

Its the same as many of your other Statements.

Yes there is other Allrounder Ships. But none of them comes even remotely Close to Fulfilling as many Roles as Proficiently as a CV.

Yes DD Torps and BB Shells on a 1 to 1 Basis or Salvo to Salvo Basis have higher Damage than CV Torps and AP Bombs. But unlike the CV they cant just Drop them right next onto an enemy Ship from a Self Choosen Angle even tough that Ship is 20km away from your own Ship. Meaning none of the Ships which per Shell/Torp or Salvo has more Damage than the CV. Will actually be Capable of Reliably landing enough of these Shells/Torps/Salvos to Really do more Damage than the CV.

Yes DDs are more Stealthy. But both is meaningless in the Face of a CV. Because the CV might not be as Stealthy but he can Stay on unlimited Range while the DDs Stealth is Practically negated by the CV.

Yes BBs are more Tanky. But the CV can Attack without actually revealing itself. And the most Tanky Target is the one you cant even Shoot at. Thats why back in the Day DDs lost the Ability to Stealth Fire their Guns because it made many of them Invincible.

 

 

What you are Doing is Basicly saying that a Pickpocket and a Serial Killer are both Criminals. While Ignoring the Severe Weight Difference of their Crimes.

 

TLDR.

Maybe you Should Consider. That to most of us. The One who is Seeming Dishonest. Is actually You. Because we Sit here Scratching our Heads at how Twisted and Illogical most of your Statements are in View of Reality.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You Sure that its the others which are Dishonest here ?

Because Frankly Said. To most of us it looks more like your the one who Denies Reality.

Albeit that might of course not be Intentional by you and merely be down to you being Biased so Strongly that your really not seeing how ridiculous most of your Statements seem to the rest of us.

You quoting, were I refer to hit probability. You think, that a stationary target is exactly same easy to hit, than a moving and maneuvering target? That the hit probability is same, when an target is angleing?  I need to make a meme out of that :D

 

ps.: You can go with me into a training room and show me perfectly aligend drops against stationary targets and against mobile targets :)

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You quoting, were I refer to hit probability. You think, that a stationary target is exactly same easy to hit, than a moving and maneuvering target? That the hit probability is same, when an target is angleing?  I need to make a meme out of that :D

 

ps.: You can go with me into a training room and show me perfectly aligend drops against stationary targets and against mobile targets :)

 

Not sure if you didnt bother Reading my Post or just Decided to Troll because you got no Arguments unless you pretend to misunderstand what I wrote.

But No Matter.

Saying things several times isnt exactly a new thing here I guess...

 

 

 

I never Claimed the Hitrate remains the Same.

I did not even mention Stationary vs Mobile Target.

 

I said You are Misrepresenting the Scale.

Angling against a BB or DD has alot more effect than Angling against a CV.

 

Moreover. A CV can change his Attack Angle easily. But other Ships cant do that.

 

 

Your Basicly saying.

Oh this Machinegun isnt Overpowered compared to that Pencil.

The Pencil can Kill you if it Hits just like the Mashinegun.

And Yeah. Theoretically the Statement itself is True.

But there is a Massive Difference in how Effective these 2 Items are at Killing someone.

 

 

 

Next Time Pls at least Try Reading my Post before Answering.

Thanks in Advance.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Not sure if you didnt bother Reading my Post or just Decided to Troll because you got no Arguments unless you pretend to misunderstand what I wrote.

But No Matter.

Saying things several times isnt exactly a new thing here I guess...

Yes, I have to repeat myself all the time. Because you quoted me on the maneuvering. People claim, that maneuvering doesn't do anything. Which makes no sense.

 

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I never Claimed the Hitrate remains the Same.

You quoted me on that point.

 

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I said You are Misrepresenting the Scale.

Angling against a BB or DD has alot more effect than Angling against a CV.

1. Of course it's easier, than hitting an angled Petro. I never said, it's very hard (but also this game is overall not very hard). I said it's "harder". That's a relative term. The point is to make it harder.

2. Scale doesn't matter here? I never talked about a comparison. Even if you do that, you have to take then the dmg into account and a BB salvo is extremly high. But also a BB can do 10k dmg to angled targets, but this becomes very specific and off-topic ;)

 

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Moreover. A CV can change his Attack Angle easily. But other Ships cant do that.

That doesn't matter, that was never the topic there. It's still harder to hit a maneuvering target, then a stationary target.

The difference is

-See a stationary target

-Attack, go afk until you are above

-Click and drop

The easiest

vs.

-See the maneuvering target and observe the maneuvers

-Attack, but you can't go "afk", you have to adjust and aim, using mouse and keyboard

-Drop, but even while the drop, the ship will move and might give a worse angle, then the perfect aligned target.

 

Otherwise, how often are you perfectly aligned against stationary and how often are you perfectly aligend against maneuvering targets? We can go into a training room, to get the statistic.

 

Just to make it clear again. "Harder" doesn't have to mean "hard. If action A is easy and action B has a medium difficult. Then action B is not hard or difficult, BUT it's harder than action A. That are relative descriptions.

What we want is, to make it harder.

 

17 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Your Basicly saying.

Oh this Machinegun isnt Overpowered compared to that Pencil.

The Pencil can Kill you if it Hits just like the Mashinegun.

Maybe somewhere a false interpretation on your side (or bad decription on my side), never said anything like that.  How is that related to the hit probability of CVs against stationary targets vs maneuvering targets? ^^

I'm never going into any type of comparison, just explaining mechanics. I took the Battleship example to explain, what angling does.

When you angle (no matter against what), you become a harder target, but it also doesn't mean, that you become immune, even big hits can happen.

Those example were just mentioned to explain the mechanics, not going into any type of comparison, what is better and what not. It's only about, what angling does and can happen.

 

23 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Next Time Pls at least Try Reading my Post before Answering. 

Please don't discredit people by going with personal statements. I said "some people", so I'm not going into personal, who is meant. I'm not dishonest, you just missunderstood my point and that's why I didn't understand your post and skipped most, because it was unrelated to my point.

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Snip

 

 

Still not sure if you really dont get it or if your just Pretending to not get it in order to Annoy Me.

 

But its Obvious that trying to Explain this to You any further wont lead anywhere.

 

Have a Nice Day Mate.

[Miragetank90]

Rumour is Immelmann will be for coal. 

 

 

I suspected, but it's just a rumour of course. Guess we'll find out soon enough. 

 

[Sunleader]

Coal would be Nice.

 

[CptBarney]

1 hour ago, Miragetank90 said:

Rumour is Immelmann will be for coal. 

 

 

I suspected, but it's just a rumour of course. Guess we'll find out soon enough. 

 

wats an immelmann?

explain to barneh.

[Lordcrafty]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

wats an immelmann?

explain to barneh.

basically an uptiered kaga.

[CptBarney]

Just now, Lordcrafty said:

basically an uptiered kaga.

Kagas, weird german sister?

[tocqueville8]

On 3/30/2021 at 4:29 PM, NikolayKuznetsov said:

I didnt shoot, and I just tested it out for myself, CV can just follow AA tracers and blap you in smoke, I could do it on the first attempt. Learn something new every day I guess, if a destroyer even dares to try to shoot down an airplane, the CV will know your exact location so it can bomb you to death in your smoke, because you sinned against wargamings pet class and tried to shoot one of their precious planes.

Maybe he just got lucky: after all, smokes aren't infinite, and dive bomber reticles are pretty big.

 

Just for context, yesterday a div mate of mine was sunk by a stray shell from a BB, fired blind into a cap. Not a smoke, a cap.

[Lordcrafty]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

Kagas, weird german sister?

in essence, yes. The one which is looking pretty bad relative to it's tier right now

[Miragetank90]

2 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Kagas, weird german sister?

 

The skip bomb ''Richtofen'' that started testing a while back. 

[CptBarney]

Imagine her in Azur lane as some, chesty, derpy and loud CV. It wouldn't be AL without planet busting chests anyways.

[Broe116]

is there any reason why CVs  is stil in game? Its seems to me, ignoring the tier10, that every effort is made to destroy there playability both for the CV and the team play. 

 

Tier 10 seems to be a very different beast altogether plauged with s.. load other problems

 

over the last few downgrades to the game we seen the AP bombs doing hardly no dmg at least on the jap cv. torps been remade into peanuts. but maybe an effect of the insane amount of AA that have come to the game.

 

every new gen, ships have progresivly better AA and the paytowin got AA walls build in. a tier 8 with almost 100AA?

 

so unless some oldschool player takes one of the old gen. ships to battle there is not much to do but planebait. cant spot a DD that kills all your planes in 30-40 sec. maybe do a single attack run. but ......

 

and unless there are a lot of islands the detection is so f. large specially germand and US cv you spotted half a map away.

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

there is no flat justice in AL? you would imagine a large flat surface is a good thing for a CV 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Imagine her in Azur lane as some, chesty, derpy and loud CV. It wouldn't be AL without planet busting chests anyways.

This one would need a wheelbarrow. 

Because else the bombs would bounce too much.

 

Spoiler

 

[Dominik_Tirpitz]

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

over the last few downgrades to the game we seen the AP bombs doing hardly no dmg at least on the jap cv.

IJN CV Bombs are still pretty good. You almost always hit at least 1 bomb and there are still citadels. They might deal less damage but don't forget you can't heal it. Have you seen KM CV Bomb spread? That one is depressing 

 

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

but maybe an effect of the insane amount of AA that have come to the game. every new gen, ships have progresivly better AA

Well there has been some very good AA ships introduced, namely Halland and Petro. The Italians have low AA range tho.

 

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

paytowin got AA walls build in. a tier 8 with almost 100AA?

Which one?

 

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

so unless some oldschool player takes one of the old gen. ships to battle there is not much to do but planebait.

With proper target selection and plane managment you can still be useful

 

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

cant spot a DD that kills all your planes in 30-40 sec. maybe do a single attack run. but ......

30 sec? You can do all your attack runs in that time, unless you play FDR

 

3 hours ago, Broe116 said:

and unless there are a lot of islands the detection is so f. large specially germand and US cv you spotted half a map away.

Angling is the answer. You have armoured flight decks at T10 that can easily bounce AP shells from further away. As most BBs camp in the back, you are good with positioning yourself very aggressively. And well, there are good islands at pretty much every map apart from 2 or 3 which you can use as cover

 

 

[Kyorinn]

10 saat önce, Dominik_Tirpitz dedi:

Well there has been some very good AA ships introduced, namely Halland and Petro. The Italians have low AA range tho.

"petro" are you realy sure about that or just joking now?

[Dominik_Tirpitz]

2 hours ago, COMRADE_2019 said:

"petro" are you realy sure about that or just joking now?

almost 7km AA range is annoying, rest of it is okayish, maybe shouldn't go in the "very good" category but in "good"

[Pogglebox]

My earlier point, now I've had time to calm down, was that there is no incentive to stop a CV focussing a well organised AA defence. CV's can, and all to often do just launch wave after wave at one particular target with impunity, regardless of the relative strength of the AA they come up against because they have an infinite supply of resources that get recycled too quickly.