[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8076 Posted April 5, 2021 34 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said: summed up: CVs are simply better than all classes and doesn't need to be balanced. Nobody said that? 1 hour ago, Nov_A said: tl;dr It was mostly about, that some say, that AA is non existant. Though AA is existant, it just not prevents always from a first strike. It prevents mostly following strikes 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ashardalon_Dragnipur Players 493 posts 5,497 battles Report post #8077 Posted April 5, 2021 9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: If the CV is good, one strike should be mostly always possible. Same like you still can get shot and damaged, even if you dodge, angle etc. This was the issue, that I saw with RTS-CV, there were no-fly-zones and I-don't-care-zones. AA was extremly heavy or "non existant". Not sure about your example. I think the CV lost his planes for a single strike and he needed to repeat those single strikes multiple times? That's totally fine, but tbh, in a BB I never felt a threat by a CV at T10. They just add some extra dmg on the top. It's even better with CV just because they scare sometimes the DDs away, which are my issue, when I play BB. BBs have really no reason to cry about the rework, there are so many changes in favor for the BB The thing is. If you would have AA like in RTS times, CV would become unplayable. We have way more good anti AA ship to chose from. A match would be like 2x Halland, 2x Petro, 1x Mino, 1xDM or Wooster, 1x Shiki or any other AA heavy bb (for ranked) Every ship would be a no-fly zone :D you have never been in a german BB, started to push, saw your allys abandon you, had a CV take 1/3 of your hp off off you and kill your engines then turn around and take another 1/3 and kill engines again sure the CV didnt exactly kill you but he did make it impossible to live even if rts aa came back, you could still just wait CV has infinte planes, ships dont have infinite aa mounts its only ametter of time till they have no defense 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8078 Posted April 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said: you have never been in a german BB, started to push, saw your allys abandon you, had a CV take 1/3 of your hp off off you and kill your engines then turn around and take another 1/3 and kill engines again sure the CV didnt exactly kill you but he did make it impossible to live Sounds more like a missplay of the german BB / or team. I don't see where it would be better to take constantly 10k dmg + 2 fires from Thunderer instead? Everyone punsihes the german BB, if it pushes alone. That is totally unrelated to the CV Especially in this case the CV is specialized, taking out isolated ships.... 3 minutes ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said: even if rts aa came back, you could still just wait This would be terrible, because the CV will be way more unpopular up to non existant for the game, because most ships are no-fly-zones. No CV player would have fun. This would be a terrible game design. 4 minutes ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said: CV has infinte planes, ships dont have infinite aa mounts The planes are not infinite. They would be "inifnite" when a match would go infinite. But even then losing planes has impact on a CV. 1. The total plane number is not even an important aspect in the reworked version, that is something the old version was about and doesn't apply here 1b) You can even kinda deplane. When you have only 1-3 planes left and it takes over a minute to get 1 more, than it's almost like having no planes. Try to attack a mino with 3 Bombers 2. AA can be very sturdy, when you take the AA/secondary modules. The problem are the ships like Thunderer, who shred your AA. Most ohter ships barely touch your AA, you rather die, before the AA goes below 90%. But it depends on the enemies. 8 minutes ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said: its only ametter of time till they have no defense I have like 10-20 Secreenshots, were I'm almost dead and still almost all my AA. It's "only" that number, because I don't check it every game. But as I said, if it's not a HE Spamming BB, you mostly don't lose AA. The issue is here the design of HE BBs, not the CV design imo 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] geschlittert Players 874 posts 9,576 battles Report post #8079 Posted April 5, 2021 51 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said: Sounds more like a missplay of the german BB / or team. I don't see where it would be better to take constantly 10k dmg + 2 fires from Thunderer instead? Everyone punsihes the german BB, if it pushes alone. That is totally unrelated to the CV Especially in this case the CV is specialized, taking out isolated ships.... In my GK i would rather play against a team consisting of only thunderers than one CV. [edited]this class. I can at least outplay thunderers 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[_I_] Nibenay78 Players 3,266 posts 27,734 battles Report post #8080 Posted April 5, 2021 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Guess here is the issue. You compare ship vs ship. It's a team game with different classes, and one class will be always the strongest. Go, play League of legends as support and then play against a "super unicum" assassine. You are are also in a disadvantage there. Even when you play a different class, this unicum player might kill you. It's just, that you have different classes and some classes are weaker and some are stronger, but the potential lays in combining the power, same like in league of legends. The support is the weakest class, but it's still important for the team. If you want fair conditions, you should play shooter like Counter Strike or Valorant Wows still have some measure of rock/paper/scissor among the 3 regular classes, while CVs have the tools to specifically harass each of the others. I'm sure your intention is not to say this, but it seems to me that it's ok that 3 various classes are OK to have some distavantages aganst each other, while CVs are fine to be good against all? Because that's what they are. They can hunt down and kill ANY of the 3 classes without being at an inherent disadvantage. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Funny enough, if the DM is sationary and afk, the AA still works, while the BB would do nothing to the DD :P Not very relevant, against the DM is supposed to be "strong" vs CV, so it would be reasonable that it kills a plane or two when being oneshotted? While BBs are "weak" against DDs so it also is reasonable they can do little in that situation? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: And as I said, the DM is for some super-unicums not dangerous to attack, at least that was told from RTS-unicums. Some plane loses for an instant death on the DM ;) Are there no fly zones or not? I can't say I remember CVs being a huge issue while playing DM, unless I specifically mis-played in which case I most certainly deserve some punishment. Popping DefAA at the wrong time certainly counts as misplay. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: If the CV player total farks up, he loses 100% of the squadron before strike, which means, that he lost 1 Minute of damage, while the other CV could have done more in that 1 Minute. I think the problem is, that people want compare a ship by ship duel. I think that is the wrong approach. Duels can happen, but they are never fair. Even if a DM duesl a DM it's probably not fair, because one has lower hp at the beginning or different skills etc. Of course its generally not duels, with 12 headless chickens running around, the environment is certainly more complex that that, yet often one ends up in a near-duel due to range/land/other ships dying or whatever. DM vs DM is "fair" because they have equal capabilities by default. If one DM wins due to skill, isn't that what we want? Not because one DM can magically relocate at 150knts while the other can't? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I'm not saying, that is a bad gameplay or unfun gameplay. But as soon you rdd or remove a ship type (BB, Cruiser, DD, CV, soon SS(?)), the strategy changes. With CVs, it's better to combine AA and not move alone, because the CV is good against solo ships. IF you have DDs, it's not good to push into the torpedos (as bb for example). When you remove DDs, BBs can go pretty aggressive. When the SS are added, I'm sure the meta changes again. Indeed and CV rework pretty much removed many interesting tactics for me. I can only imagine what a disaster SS will be. And for the record, I didn't complain the first 3-6 months of the rework, hoping that WG would actuall balance things out. But no, we were stuck with neverending waves of skyrats coming at us. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: That was actually weird, having this heavy DDs and it was very unfun to play as CV in RTS times. I remember a match, Iw as in Shokaku in a T10 match, and 80% of the enemies were heavy AA. I couldn't do anything the whole match, the enemy CV didn't strike and went only for counter play. Super unfun. Like having DD in a 5 radar cruiser match? playing single BB with only smolensks? or playing a 6 vs 6 game early morning once, 3 CVs on each team. The first surface ship didn't get out of spawn. Hosho ftw! I'm sure they had a blast. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: and DD shouldn't have strong AA actually, especially not that weird. Your wish is for DDs to be support ships. What should they support with exactly if not AA? Smoke doesn't work well for bigger ships anymore. Most don't have hydro to screen for torps. Sit in smoke and spam low caliber HE or just zigsag in front looking for torps? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I had once a proposal, it was very detailed, so it's hard to sumarize. But it was: Strike planes lose spotting ability for team Strike plane deck number reduced by ~30%, Adding Recon planes for spotting only They have also an attack run, but instead of attacking, they get an obersvation mode for marking a single target for the team, which increases accuracy (minus 10-20% dispersion) This has also a special economy mechanic, damage done on the marked target get also adde for the CV Recon planes are not a squadron, single planes, thus they get shot down very easily Counter to recon planes are DDs and CLs, since they are stealthy and need only to do ~1k-1.5k damage The gameplay would be, that a Carrier has to swap between Recon planes and strike planes, because the deck number of strike planes is lower and he won't be able to use strike planes only. Also other ships can way easier dodge CVs, because he won't spot for the team. DDs and CLs are counter to spotter planes of the CV, which could be a fun mechanic. I could make proposals to improve RTS gameplay. Seeming your biggest issue was playing poor AA ships. That could be amended, yet I also played a lot of such back in the day, generally acceppted that because my AA is crap, my other abilities are better. It seemed often fair enough. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Why I'm wrong? Never said, that you don't enjoy a support role :P You said "But people like big damage numbers and solo Rambo plays, so probably nobody would like a support role^^ "probably nobody" - well nobody is a very strong term, it does include me. But I enjoyed to play AA support ships (Montana, Gearing, DM and Minotaur) back in the day. So your assumtion is wrong. Right now I have full AA build on Minotaur which includes the dumba** module already lowering my rate of fire by 12%, not to mention the extra captain skill points. Yet I'm left with the feeling it's just not worth it because medium AA range is so short that it mostly "protects" myself, but by the time the CV has raped my teammates, it's not going to protect me either. Since I can't stop the strikes, the 16mm plating sure isn't going to stop the damage. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: No, because the interaction between CV and surface ship was bad. I think if the DM sits behind an island, then maneuvering wouldn't work at all against bomb? So it's only left click for prior target and click for DefAA, that's it. Currently, even angling and speeding up for a few meters can make a difference. So Currently it's Maneuvering + DefAA + Sector switching. And the sector switching is more "complex" than left clicking. (you need to know when clicking) But sector doesn't mitigate much, on most ships it's a joke. Give me the "fear" effect back when I hit sector reinforcement correctly and I'd be good. In fact it should be baked into the captain skills for cruisers! 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: And they have still that purpose, because you don't get striked 3 times in a row... you really don't want take 3 strikes of a carrier in a few seconds ^^ Sure but I also dont want to use a heal because the CV will be upon me again 30 seconds later. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: It's still a difference if you have 2 Shimas, or 2 Hallands. Everyone can do an automated crossdrops, that works to, just does a bit fewer dmg. Bad CV players now do 0 dmg, they have no automated drop^^ Yeah amazing, the bad players now do nothing, while good players do even better! rejoyce! 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Yes. No ship counters another ship to 100% in a passive way, just by existance ^^ And that's mostly AA, AA is passive to most degrees. It would be a bad design, if we go back to no-fly zones. Because we have now even more CLs, especially the Petros. And then DDs like Halland and ships like Kremlin and Shiki There would be only no-fly zones. So yes, the best AA ship shouldn't make ships immune to CVs. I don't like that gameplay design. Well it's not like one has many options except rely on AA? Smoke is useful but a rather limited resource for many ships. Didn't we just agree earlier that it was perfectly possible to kill the AA ships with RTS also? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Playing against CV is a mix of 1. Denying first strike by positioning / movement 2. Denying further strikes by AA While 2 Shimas would give a bad protection for step 2, the Mino alone would be able to do this job. So the Mino is more worth than 2 other ships AA-wise. (Before people say, I'm a CV fanboy, I have a lot points, that I disagree with the current version. But I prefer this over the RTS and see many issues less heavy than others.) RTS had many issues, but while I thought CVs are OP and not the best design back then, today I see it as a complete [deadly-abnormal-cell-growth-disease] in this game to the point I will not recommend anyone to start playing wows. Just enjoy playing 18knts ships with 0 AA as newbie. Probably a great introduction to the game. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Yes, that's the point to make clear, what changed. Three ships were useless against the CV, because 3 players can only play, when they have an AA ship around. But now it changed, that these 3 ships would still work fine. That's a huge improvement. As you say "Try dropping a US AA cruiser into that" -> there was none, so the game is crap? :D AA weak ships have now a chance. But I think here is the issue. You argue from the AA-heavy ships, who where quite strong. I argue from the view of AA weak ships, who are now better than back then. Thats the difference, I can now survive a Carrier in my Nagato or my Asashio. It was terrible against RTS. So why couldn't we just buff the weaker ships then instead of getting this crapshow that is now? Also did you feel that the AA weak ships didn't have any advantages due to their weak AA? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Yes, but that is, when you get spotted and focused by a Team and the Mino is a candidate, that is often focused. A reason, why I don't like these russian meta with 50mm super tank-plating... That's an issue with Mino maybe, and I don't think, that this is reason, why Mino has some drawbracks. Mino is a CL, other CLs have also good AA, if not better with DefAA, but they don't have these drawbacks I think the Mino has these drawbacks because of the torps and possibility of Smoke, not because of AA. All CLs have by default good AA. They tested better concealment, but it looks like, they didn't like it, since we never heared anything about it again. Now I'm sure we can agree that noone knows how WG balances ships :D but if AA is a "strong attribute" then clearly the ship should suffer in other attributes? Smoke is of course another plus that adds up. Right now there is nothing more satisfiying than sitting in smoke watching the planes burn while throwing a (meaningless) report to the CV. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: No, with RTS CV you always did 2 strikes to get the perma floods. If hte AA is weak, you could even try 3 strikes, but look at some RTS videos, you can see how an RTS CV can even kill almost 2 battleships in one go ^^ I think Elazer uploaded one Um, yes. But what is harder to get, 1 flood or 2 floods? What is harder to get, high flood chance, or less flood chance? And now the super question, what is even harder: 1 flood with higher chance on floods or 2 floods with lower chance on floods That cumulates extremly. RTS times: You got a flood, you used DCP. Then next approach a flood again or not. Lets say, a flood takes 20k HP Now: You get a flood or not, two floods are mostly unlikely. So you get 10k or you DCP it Then another strike, you get a flood orn ot, if so, you take 10k dmg. A second flood could happen sometimes, but is quite hard to get, and only then, only in this rare case, you take 20k dmg, what was almost normal in RTS times^^ I believe our dear @El2aZeR make some calculations about DPM before and now. A vague memory the result wasn't much different than before. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Actually yesterday I dodged CV torpedos with my Shiki, which has no rudder shift module xD Though the CV was forced to drop, so I had time to turn a bit I also miss with BBs shells by being completely retarded at times despite doing on average well in some of them. I'm sure CVs do miss also occationally ;) 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I know what you mean, and I think it would be more realistic and immserive, but also more frustrating. It would be better, if it would be less RNG depending and more a mechanic like hitting 3 times the same spot (That's not my suggestion, just an example what I mean with "mechanic") And back than, floods sucked hard, it was so furstrating by getting so much HP drained Frustrating but it also gave you something to think about.. do you put out 2 fires or save the repair for the torpedoes. Today it's all the same. In a BB you burn or flood all the time, it's just a DoT effect that is almost always on, its bland and boring. The only interesting thing is the speed loss with flooding. I like that being torped has a different flavour than burning... 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: But you just said, that you like heavy Dots? :D With DoT I mean the general design, that there is less damage, but more constant over time. That what ships like Harugumo do. They haven ot much dmg, but they do it over time by constantly firing shells, instead of one hitting. And it's not frustrating, because you don't die by default, and it gives you even the chance to survive. What chance do you have, when you die by alpha damage? You are dead. But if you take a bit damage, you can heal, and then you take damage again, and you might move into a better spot, and then your heal is up again, and then you win, instead of dying. But DoT is tedious and boring, like I said above, all you do is burn burn burn. Give some newbie a Smolensk and tell him to just sit in smoke and fire. He doesn't have to actually aim better than hitting any part of the ship. Eventually it will burn despite shattering. To me, playing against a CV nowadays feels like you're being harrassed by some flying gunboat slowly wittling you down. If you're lucky enough, the AA will "scare him away" for a short moment until he returns 30 seconds later. Mind numbingly annoying design. how about we make a ship that has pitiful DPM but even the most crappy player can have a 99% hitrate from 30km away? Sounds like brilliant design right? I almost feel CVs are close to this at times. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: That's a personal preference. It was mostly always unfun. The only fun is, when I was in Kii, but even then, the AA system was actually boring. How is a %-chance to kill a plane pr second MORE boring than just adding up static damage pr plane? 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: My personal opinion is, that we need more manual AA. My idea was, that the on-click burst damage changes from these 3-5% burst to a manual aimed flak barrage. So every ~15 seconds you could aim one barrage manually. And every ship would have different barrages, depending on the flak-cloud number and damage. You say demoralizing to play against, I personally love to play against CV in any ship, here is a replay, the CV player isn't good, but that's how it is, most CV players are not good, not every game has a unicum ;) Manual AA would be great, but it will never happen. At least in RTS you had a panic effect and a manual target option. I'm not sure I feel that boosting "one side" of the ship is as interesting. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: 20210405_182112_PJSD510-Hayate_52_Britain.wowsreplay Watch it, but please don't come up with "This was badly done, and this could be better" As an observer, you will always know it better, in a match itself you have to make decisions quickly, So Afterwards comments doesn't do anything ^^ At the end for example, I let my AA on, which was not intentionally it's ok, too late to watch now and i'll probably forget it tomorrow. Feel free to remind me. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: You call it blops like it's a bad thing. But in my opinion, in a naval game, there should be always groups. Especially DDs were mostly escorts. And a ship group of 2-3 ships are not blops imo. And actually, when I play Shikishima, I often go solo, and hope that the CV goes for me, to waste his planes. The only issue is, when the Thunderer and the Stalingrad and Petro goes also for me. Idc of a CV, but the Thunderer HE is not good of a DD that goes for me :P So what should escorts do in this game? and like I said above, I enjoyed escorting other ships against CV, but it was mostly possible/useful/fun in very spesific ships. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Yes, when he is below 5%, the CV might kill him, but if there is enough HP, a CV can still struggle in killing him, when he maneuvers etc. And guess what, the advantage of a CV is speed and flexbility, so of course he can go for low hp targets? It's like you would say "A battleship can overmatch my nose, other crusiers and DDs can't do that, unfair" ^^ So which exactly are the CVs disadvantages? Please do tell. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: What is your friend doing, when a stealthy DD is dropping the torps broadside? unlike a CV, you don't see that coming, until they are below 2km or even below 1km ^^ All he have to do is not drive straight or make an accidental turn, and the masstive strike will do nothing. Again BBs are "weak" against DD, but CVs rule supreme against all classes. Except their own which is purposely almost pointless to strike at. 4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: And then dead. And it wouldn't even matter, if he is 1% or 10%. Every ship type has it's advantages... and we can pick a lot scenarios, were the CV is in favor and were other ships are in favor. Again, what is the disadvantage of CVs? Running out of planes? well the rest of us runs out of AA mounts and hitpoints. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TORAZ] El2aZeR Beta Tester 15,786 posts 26,801 battles Report post #8081 Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said: I believe our dear @El2aZeR make some calculations about DPM before and now. A vague memory the result wasn't much different than before. Reworked CVs actually come out severely ahead if the RTS CV cannot get a kill per attack. Which was extremely often. Don't have the time to read it all, but I suppose @Pikkozoikum is here with his usual blatant lies again? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ashardalon_Dragnipur Players 493 posts 5,497 battles Report post #8082 Posted April 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Sounds more like a missplay of the german BB / or team. I don't see where it would be better to take constantly 10k dmg + 2 fires from Thunderer instead? Everyone punsihes the german BB, if it pushes alone. That is totally unrelated to the CV Especially in this case the CV is specialized, taking out isolated ships.... yes ignore the dead engine making stopping impossible and surface ships arnt as fast as planes, the planes can come past 5 cruisers and still do two drops so F that BS about isolated ships "practically" infinite planes, because we have to pretend for CV apologist as if you dont need to actively try to lose planes to run out 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8083 Posted April 6, 2021 9 hours ago, Ashardalon_Dragnipur said: yes ignore the dead engine making stopping impossible and surface ships arnt as fast as planes, the planes can come past 5 cruisers and still do two drops so F that BS about isolated ships "practically" infinite planes, because we have to pretend for CV apologist as if you dont need to actively try to lose planes to run out The dead engine is kinda unimportant, if this is an issue for you, you can pick a module against engine damage, but it never happend to me, that my engine got destroyed in a BB from a CV, and when I'm in a CV, I also very rarely destroy the engine. I hope you mean "come past 5 cruisers" that a CV can fly around? A CV can deplane, it happend to me, and I wouldn't say, I'm totally bad. Even with Kaga it happend sometimes. Mostly when the enemy team was winning and constantly grouped, so I lose my whole squads, when I want do something. "CV apologist" is kinda a weak statement, same like "CV hater". Like someone would try to weaken statements and arguments to pigeon-hole someone 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TORAZ] El2aZeR Beta Tester 15,786 posts 26,801 battles Report post #8084 Posted April 6, 2021 2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: A CV can deplane, it happend to me, and I wouldn't say, I'm totally bad. That sentence contradicts itself. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8085 Posted April 6, 2021 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Wows still have some measure of rock/paper/scissor among the 3 regular classes, while CVs have the tools to specifically harass each of the others. I'm sure your intention is not to say this, but it seems to me that it's ok that 3 various classes are OK to have some distavantages aganst each other, while CVs are fine to be good against all? Because that's what they are. They can hunt down and kill ANY of the 3 classes without being at an inherent disadvantage. The thing is again, that this is not a duel game, but people are used to play mostly against surface ships, so they thing it's a duel game. People think, that 1vs1 are fair ^^ It's very asymmetric. The only 1vs1 balancing that should happen in my opinion is inbetween a class. A Kremlin shouldn't be stronger than a Montana or GK. A FDR shouldn't be stronger than a Midway or Hakuryu. The Balance inter-class should be about "comfort". That it is fun to play against. And please, I'm talking about "honest" fun. Because everyone will come up with "It's not fun getting hit by a CV", like it's fun getting hit by DD torps or a BB broadside or an HE Spammer... so I'm mean honest fun^^ Example, the fun against CV for me is, when I outplay the CV, he misses his drop and then loses his squad. So it's fun for me. As a BB, when I tank the drop and kill the squad, while he did little damage. Still fun. I don't think we can say we have rock/paper/scissor, somehwat it might fit and somtimes not. So I generally wouldn't say we got that. It's more like a Moba or games like Battlefield with assymmetrical roles. If you go with LoL, there are roles, which dominate in League and have the most influence. Sometimes it was the jungler, because he got too much exp in the jungle and could influence all 3 lanes, while a suppoert is always the weakest. If a support would fight a 1vs1 against any ohter lane, he mostly loses always, since he has less gold and often not the skills for 1vs1. I see CV as a global class, that supports the team, where it needs support. Just like an artillery in WoT or a Commander in some shooters. (In some shooter, one could be a commander, to support other team mates with drops and airstrikes) 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Not very relevant, against the DM is supposed to be "strong" vs CV, so it would be reasonable that it kills a plane or two when being oneshotted? While BBs are "weak" against DDs so it also is reasonable they can do little in that situation? It's reasonable to kill some planes, after getting one-shotted? But the current CV doesn't one-shot you, I mean a Haku with a lucky hit takes like 20k?^^ Dropping bombs in RTS was point and click, while those bombs of the Haku has to be actually aimed and since a few patches, they changed the approach of the Haku, which makes dodging(maneuvering out) easier. 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Are there no fly zones or not? I can't say I remember CVs being a huge issue while playing DM, unless I specifically mis-played in which case I most certainly deserve some punishment. Popping DefAA at the wrong time certainly counts as misplay. It depends, my Kii shred all planes, before they reached me. Against T6-T8 it was a no-fly-zone, T10 a bit of. I was just repeating, what some RTS-unicums said back then, they said, they can kill DMs. And I remember also, that DMs got often oneshotted by CVs, it was a meme in ranked, like "DM don't go there alone" *DM goes alone there* *DM dead* 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Of course its generally not duels, with 12 headless chickens running around, the environment is certainly more complex that that, yet often one ends up in a near-duel due to range/land/other ships dying or whatever. DM vs DM is "fair" because they have equal capabilities by default. If one DM wins due to skill, isn't that what we want? Not because one DM can magically relocate at 150knts while the other can't? *captain skills, not player skill ;) And the duel is not fair, if the 1vs1 starts with HP differences, one DM damaged, one less. I think you never get a fair duel even with same ships, because the conditions are always different. Talking about the speed is quite pointless, there is no naval game, where planes are slow, that's the feature of aircraftcarriers and their squads... 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Indeed and CV rework pretty much removed many interesting tactics for me. I can only imagine what a disaster SS will be. And for the record, I didn't complain the first 3-6 months of the rework, hoping that WG would actuall balance things out. But no, we were stuck with neverending waves of skyrats coming at us. Understandable, but this is also a personal preference, I like the gameplay with CVs more, because of the meta change. Also the AA guns look awesome, I get childhood flashbacks of Wings of Fury xD 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Like having DD in a 5 radar cruiser match? playing single BB with only smolensks? or playing a 6 vs 6 game early morning once, 3 CVs on each team. The first surface ship didn't get out of spawn. Hosho ftw! I'm sure they had a blast. Nah, that match was worse then that. And funny thing is, it seems the ranked is DD meta. I get a lot 4 DDs per side matches. One was 5 DDs I think, didn't pay attention. I would expect people would go with the "broken" CV ^^ Though somone mentioned, that they changed the AA explosions with 10.1 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Your wish is for DDs to be support ships. What should they support with exactly if not AA? Smoke doesn't work well for bigger ships anymore. Most don't have hydro to screen for torps. Sit in smoke and spam low caliber HE or just zigsag in front looking for torps? That is out of context. Don't mix different statements ;) One was a statement about, that DDs could be a support class The other statement is, that DDs have way stronger AA, than it makes sense. But for pvp-game design flair, they make some very strong. Compare Akizuki and Yamato: Akizuki total dps 249 with 39x25mm 8x100mm Yamato total dps 536 (without the hitchance reduction, which would be even lower than DD) with 162x25mm 25x125mm 4x13,2mm It has ike 5 times the guns, but only double the dps. It's because the aa guns are not really calculated, they dps values get a fixed value for pvp balance. Otherwise DDs would be all weak and BBs all strong AA wise^^ But I actually play DDs as supports, I smoke my cruiser, lurk around the cap, give AA support, when they go for my cruiser, then I cap. Torping when possible, and gunning down the DD, who thinks, he is John Rambo :3 (I ranked out with Hayate into gold xD) 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: I could make proposals to improve RTS gameplay. Seeming your biggest issue was playing poor AA ships. That could be amended, yet I also played a lot of such back in the day, generally acceppted that because my AA is crap, my other abilities are better. It seemed often fair enough. There is no biggest issue, the RTS had many issues. One issue were the AA-extremes, not only when I played weak AA ships, but also when I played CV. I played Kaga and one shotted BBs with weak AA, while I did nothing to AA strong ships. For me it's a boring gameplay. Those BBs were real victims, getting shot down by one air raid. Sometimes I felt bad for these one shots. I mean, it's not like they did anything wrong, they had just no choice, they relied on having AA-strong friends, but if their CV is not helping and no AA ships available -> rip xD If now someone gets rekt, it's mostly a DD, but there it's very often their fault. Their ships are fast and have options, not like an RTS-AA-Weak BB 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: You said "But people like big damage numbers and solo Rambo plays, so probably nobody would like a support role^^ "probably nobody" - well nobody is a very strong term, it does include me. But I enjoyed to play AA support ships (Montana, Gearing, DM and Minotaur) back in the day. So your assumtion is wrong. Knew, you would go for that, it's a hyperbole and it's translated, that many people prefer that. When someone says "nobody" or "all", then it's never truely meant as that, just a hyperbole to make clear, that the number is probably so large, that the other number doesn't matter much. Like, when 95% of people would hate CV, people would say "all hate CV" 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Right now I have full AA build on Minotaur which includes the dumba** module already lowering my rate of fire by 12%, not to mention the extra captain skill points. Yet I'm left with the feeling it's just not worth it because medium AA range is so short that it mostly "protects" myself, but by the time the CV has raped my teammates, it's not going to protect me either. Since I can't stop the strikes, the 16mm plating sure isn't going to stop the damage. I often skill only the 2pt AA skill for an addtional cloud and better sector. The long range is actually quite good, because when an enemy attacks a friend, he mostly zic zacs through the Long range, and then passes straight through med and short range. But then with your long range, the med and short range phase has also flak explosions ^^ Also I said earlier, someone mentioned, they changed the flap explosions, maybe it's now better, no idea. I actually took lately more flak explosions 13 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: But sector doesn't mitigate much, on most ships it's a joke. Give me the "fear" effect back when I hit sector reinforcement correctly and I'd be good. In fact it should be baked into the captain skills for cruisers! The sector changing is quite good. The Dps tick faster, so a plane can be shot down faster, also you can improve the sector, which gives a big boost. My Shikishima has with skill 160% on one side. The dps are 100, 375, 200 = 675 when reinforcing it's 1080 It's a nice value :) Though you already have a panic effect, when moving around, the aiming is spreading. With RTS, there was no wide spread, they always had the perfect drop. What they should change, that there is more a penalty, when moving around. Ships like Enterprise, Midway and so one have almost no punishment for moving around 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Sure but I also dont want to use a heal because the CV will be upon me again 30 seconds later. Yes, enemies will go for you ^^' 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Yeah amazing, the bad players now do nothing, while good players do even better! rejoyce! With 0 damage I mean, that they might run into flak more often ;) But then it's their own fault, when approach a surface ship. With RTS it was even worse. They lost all their planes, because the other CV was so good,. or in other words: The Bad CV player did fewer damage, because of the interaction vs an enemy CV mostly. Now A bad player will do fewer damage unrelated to the skill of an enemy. So it's purely depending on it's own skill. That means surface ships are not relying on the skill of the CV. (Of course a Team relies on the players, but I mean in case of impact of a CV, a surface ships is not relying on the protection of a CV, that he dominates the other CV) I think a worse player does now better in general, so the skill gap is smaller. For example, when I would have played RTS CV against Elazer, I would probbly fail hard. But now with the rework, my impact won't be disturbed much by the enemy. When we give that numbers, lets say an average player has 10 TUIU (TUIU = The ultimative impact unit, which express the impact on a battlefield) Now I have 13 TUIU and Elazer has 20 TUIU. When I would play against Elazer, he would influence my own impact and lower it down to 5 TUIU, while I maybe get a luck shots or something and his impact is 19 TUIU With the rework, there is no such influence of the other CVs mostly. so I would still have my 13 TUIU and Elazer would have his 20 TUIU. The skill gap is smaller, and one team is not totally fucked, because one CV drops hard. One reason, why I prefer the Rework over the RTS 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Well it's not like one has many options except rely on AA? Smoke is useful but a rather limited resource for many ships. Didn't we just agree earlier that it was perfectly possible to kill the AA ships with RTS also? A unicum said that, I personally see mostly the no fly zones. Also there is a huge difference here. The example was killing a single no-fly-zone DM with AP bombs^^ Not having 80% of the fleet as no fly zone ships. It would be impossible to reach any ships, until a thunderer melted all their AA down to 40% But also, the difference was, it was a no-fly-zone vs RTS, not no-fly-zone vs rework. The Rework has a different game design and has different approaches. No fly zones would not work 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: RTS had many issues, but while I thought CVs are OP and not the best design back then, today I see it as a complete [deadly-abnormal-cell-growth-disease] in this game to the point I will not recommend anyone to start playing wows. Just enjoy playing 18knts ships with 0 AA as newbie. Probably a great introduction to the game. Well, it's up to you, but it helps, when you see the CV not 1vs1 enemy and this game like a ego shooter, even though it has some aspects of an ego shooter. You have to see it like a Moba combined with ego shooter in a naval battle scenario. In Mobas you have champion/hero designs, that can do stuff globally on the whole map or even become invincble. The designs are different. While a CV can strike a BB without getting back fired, the BB still can tank it and reduce strike power. A CV can't tank damage. A CV could reduce the strike power of a BB (though it could damage a gun of a DD or maybe a cruiser, but the effect is way weaker) 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: So why couldn't we just buff the weaker ships then instead of getting this crapshow that is now? Also did you feel that the AA weak ships didn't have any advantages due to their weak AA? No, they were actually even weaker... they got buffed over the time :D Zao back than at 10km torps. Shima had up and downs. But there was a time, where she had the current torpedos and even worse concealment, until they buffed the concealment. I can mostly speak of the IJN ships, and those often have no advatange duo their weak AA. Didn't got the IJN big buffs while the rework was even out? I mean buffs like accuracy and so on, I don' remember. And going with Shima, it was even worse. With rework, we got an 10% concealment buff, but also the RTS can spot torpedos and place a perma-spotting dive bomber with high speed and infinite HP (When planes left the AA, they instantly healed up) The thing is, "just buff the AA" wouldn't be the solution. The CV needed a rework. No matter if it would be a RTS -> Action play rework or a RTS -> new RTS rework. But nobody can say, if a reworked RTS would be better, could be also worse ;) I think in the minds of the most, it would be better xD But I don't think so, because Wargaming would go with the same approach to the RTS. They would make it easier, better looking and trying to give them less impact. I think the unicums would then complain, that the old RTS was better^^ 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Now I'm sure we can agree that noone knows how WG balances ships :D but if AA is a "strong attribute" then clearly the ship should suffer in other attributes? Smoke is of course another plus that adds up. Right now there is nothing more satisfiying than sitting in smoke watching the planes burn while throwing a (meaningless) report to the CV. I have a spliited opinion about that. On one side, I really can't understand, why Developers (not only WG) have so big issues with buffing/nerfing. On the other hand I think. There are so many Developers, who have this issue to make tiny changes, which are commentated often by players, that I think, that they see something, that we can't see. ^^ I don't think that AA is a strong attribute. I think, it's not even an attribute for ship balance. I think Torpedos are a very big attribute. Just compare ships like Minotaur, Zao, Yoshino with other ships. Best is Yoshino vs Stalingrad. Yoshino has maneuverbility, but I think Stalingrad is still pretty fast? Yoshino also needs the mobility, because of the squishy amor, while stalin has one of the best amors Then the guns: Yoshino guns are not the best, while Stalin has on the guns: -short fuse -improved auto-bounce angles -high velocity Those guns are brutal Azuma has not the torpedos, though she is T9 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: I believe our dear @El2aZeR make some calculations about DPM before and now. A vague memory the result wasn't much different than before. It's kinda hard, to calculate the DPM, because the CV DPM also depend on the distance. A DM has 280,000 dpm on HE, If you go with Hakuryu AP bombs, those have 20,4k damage per drop on a citadell with 3 bombs. So if you manage to get every 10s 3 citadells, you get 122,000 dpm. Or, to get the dpm of DM with AP bombs, you need to hit 3 times the citadell per drop every ~5s I think 5s is not relaistic. Even 10s is not very realistic. So according to AP bombs of Hakuryu, the dpm is way lower. Torpedo bombers have 10k rounded up on Haku, and 10 planes, so one squad can do 100k dmg. I don't have the numbers, and currently don't have Haku (researching), but I think a single drop takes around 10s, with engaging, turning, engaging etc. 20k dmg in 10s = 120k dmg and that is without getting a new squadron, which would lower the dpm. There is also another effect, that you can see, why the dpm is low. - An aircraft carrier surives way more often and longer, even if he dies, thus he has more time to deal damage and increase the total damage number - Surface ships survive way less, and also die sometimes very early, those have no potential to reach high total damage numbers. -> This means, the actualy total damage doesn't really reflects the dpm of a ship. The total damage we see on CVs in statistic is just higher, because a CV survives longer, not because the dpm is so high. Example what I mean You play 2 times a CV and 2 times a BB CV - 110k dmg, survives to the end, because CV CV - 110k dmg, survives to the end, because CV BB - 180k dmg, surivevs BB - 20k dmg, dies early The total dmg is now 110k in average for the CV and 100k for the BB. It looks like the BB does less damage, but actually the damage potential of the BB is higher, it just died too early, thus the DPM is probably higher. 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: I also miss with BBs shells by being completely retarded at times despite doing on average well in some of them. I'm sure CVs do miss also occationally ;) Well, he didn't miss, he just had to drop, because his planes were about to die, I was moving away and aligning. But the thing is, people here act often like that CV is always a unicum and always do max dmg. I really rarely have that experience. I take here and there a little damage, and very rarely I mess it really up -> Thats my experiences 14 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Frustrating but it also gave you something to think about.. do you put out 2 fires or save the repair for the torpedoes. Today it's all the same. In a BB you burn or flood all the time, it's just a DoT effect that is almost always on, its bland and boring. The only interesting thing is the speed loss with flooding. I like that being torped has a different flavour than burning... Two fires are like one flood (not sure about exact numbers), there is no reason to save the DCP Those floods were not interesting, it was super frustrating, because it feels random. You die by randomness. 1. That a torpedo hits is often randomess 2. The flood chance is a chance 3. not having DCP for that flood is a bad coincidence. To much stuff, what you can foresee. I played Hayate a lot, and my major threats are torpedos, because Hayate is actually a battleship v_v It feels actually worse than Harugumo somehow, no idea why Don't get me wrong, I love these huge fires and I would love to see this in games, but that is more something for a simulation game, less for a pvp game. Funny enough, an old game did also well https://t.gamesnostalgia.com/screenshots/b/a/battlehawks-1942/main_small.jpg 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: But DoT is tedious and boring, like I said above, all you do is burn burn burn. I think you missunderstood me there. I mean DoT not as a single damage effect like a fire, a poision, but as a gameplay. For example take the minotaur vs a heavy cruiser or Battleship Minotaur is mostly doing Damage over Time with small shells. Single shells don't do much dmg. While a battle ship does high damage hits with a single shells. Same with CV, it was a "Battleship" in RTS and now it's a "Minotaur". instead of having this one single alpha strike attack with 50k-100k dmg, you get now 5k-20k attacks, but over time 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: How is a %-chance to kill a plane pr second MORE boring than just adding up static damage pr plane? That's the thing, it was only an invisible HP drain + Chance. You also you did only left clicking the planes. That's not fun. vs. Planes have no visible HP, you now what is happening with your dps. But also you need to work around your sector, you have a burst effect and it should be used with the right timing. You can mess up a sector reinforcment, I did that now and then^^ But in the way how you say it, it's more or less the same ;) But even then, I prefer HP bars over invisible chances. Generally I prefer the more realistic and complex system, and don't like HP bars, but for Warships the HP bars are actually better 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Manual AA would be great, but it will never happen. At least in RTS you had a panic effect and a manual target option. I'm not sure I feel that boosting "one side" of the ship is as interesting. I don't see left clicking as an intersting design ^^ The panic effect is only for DefAA, otherwise the Planes had a perfect drop. Now the planes have that included. In the replay you can even see, how you can make that work by speed juking the CV 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: it's ok, too late to watch now and i'll probably forget it tomorrow. Feel free to remind me. Watch it, but as I said, it's not about great plays, it's about, why I have fun against CVs and you get more often those type of CVs, than unicums ^^ 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: So which exactly are the CVs disadvantages? Please do tell. tbh, something don't need disadvantges to be balanced. An allrounder class has no disadvantges for example :P But the disadvantages are -Adds "no" HP pool for the team / Tanking (CVs mostly can't help out a losing team with the HP pool, it will just watch, how the Team dies, I saw that very often) -Worst Ship for Capping (CVs loses game, just because the enemy DDs got the caps) -DPM dependency on AA (The Damage of a CV gets reduced by a passive effect, no other ship classes loses 50-80% of the guns, just because it attacks another ship. Bad players will lose even more, thus their DPM is low, bad for a CV and the DPM, big disadvantage.) Of course you can cap and tank in a CV, but that can be rather a failure, than an ability. A battleship can be also a spotter... that's not the point^^ But as I said, a ship doesn't need disadvantages to be working fine. Maybe the word Advantages is wrong, you could use traits or features as well. Every ship type has it's features. A CV has fast planes. A battle ship has very high Alpha damage. A destroyer has very good concealment That's why I can't understand, why going with the features of the CV, it's same I would say "DDs have too good concealment" or "Battleships have too much alpha" ^^ If I sumarize, what people bothers, then we would get a CV, that - Can't spot - Gets his squadron instant deleted by (T10s) Minotaur, Halland, Petro, A Newski, Stalingrad, Des Moines, Wooster, Shikishiima, Kremlin, Montana (?), Thunderer, Gearing (def AA), Austin, - Squadrons fly slower (60-80 Knots?) - Less dmg? :D Would be funny to see that. The thing is, all I hear is rant, nobody is really talking about, what should change, while I sadly react to rant, though I always try to come up with proposals how to improve it. Just take a look at the recon plane suggestion, I think that would fix a lot. 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: All he have to do is not drive straight or make an accidental turn, and the masstive strike will do nothing. Again BBs are "weak" against DD, but CVs rule supreme against all classes. Except their own which is purposely almost pointless to strike at. Yes, it's always easy to say "just do that", but the reality is different. Theory is not praxis. Even a cruiser will kill the low HP BB. When you are in your Mino, and you see a low HP BB, don't you just kill him, when he is that low? That's the thing I mentioned multiple times "supreme against all classes", that's not how you should look at any class. The game is not that easy to break down, it't not rock paper siccsor. And btw, in the 1vs1 brawl ,the BB was superior over CV :P Spoiler 15 hours ago, Nibenay78 said: Again, what is the disadvantage of CVs? Running out of planes? well the rest of us runs out of AA mounts and hitpoints. Again, it's mostly not about deplaning, it's about reducing strike potential. What is better, having 1 strike, or 3 strikes in a row for a cv player? But for real, lets get back the no-flyzones. Buff the AA by 300% dmg for cruisers like Minotaur. Do you think that improves the gameplay? The thing is, I'm an allrounder, I play DD, BB, cruiser and CV. So I know all sides and I know, what me bothers with each ship type. 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8086 Posted April 6, 2021 24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said: That sentence contradicts itself. Let me guess, players are bad, as soon they are below your winrate Imagine an objective comment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CptBarney Players 8,127 posts 245 battles Report post #8087 Posted April 6, 2021 are just we trying to get to page 500 now? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt_and Players 138 posts Report post #8088 Posted April 6, 2021 What happened to the second aircraft carrier tech tree that was planned for the US and Japan during the CV rework??? This one is the american tech tree with the second CV line And this one is the japanese one Also since most of these were in the game, it shouldn't be too difficult to bring them back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TORAZ] El2aZeR Beta Tester 15,786 posts 26,801 battles Report post #8089 Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said: Let me guess, players are bad, as soon they are below your winrate No, however experience dictates that CVs are either super unicum or incompetent with very little in between due to the hilarious potential of the class and the extreme skill gap elevating players that have at best only grasped, not even achieved basic competence to unicum stats. It is practically no different to someone in RTS automatically becoming unicum by having a basic grasp on manual drop and strafe, aka know the function of the alt key. That however did not make them a good RTS CV player and neither does a grasp of the basics do it in the rework. And aside from your usual blatant lies your comments suggest a severe lack of understanding about CV play anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8090 Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, capt_and said: What happened to the second aircraft carrier tech tree that was planned for the US and Japan during the CV rework??? This one is the american tech tree with the second CV line And this one is the japanese one Also since most of these were in the game, it shouldn't be too difficult to bring them back. So far no information about that since you got those infos. So no idea :3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8091 Posted April 6, 2021 got a game, where CV rekt me. But I'm not mad, while most would be mad probably. Why that? -I played Hayate without smoke -I played very aggressive the John Rambo style (without smoke!) -I still managed to get kills, while I get rekt :3 -> So I took the risk and paid for it. In the end a close loss. Could be my fault, if I would play with smoke and more save around team mates, we might would win. But I was cocky and took the risk, that the CV might ignore me and potatoes around ^^' 20210406_192049_PJSD510-Hayate_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] geschlittert Players 874 posts 9,576 battles Report post #8092 Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said: got a game, where CV rekt me. But I'm not mad, while most would be mad probably. Why that? -I played Hayate without smoke -I played very aggressive the John Rambo style (without smoke!) -I still managed to get kills, while I get rekt :3 -> So I took the risk and paid for it. In the end a close loss. Could be my fault, if I would play with smoke and more save around team mates, we might would win. But I was cocky and took the risk, that the CV might ignore me and potatoes around ^^' 20210406_192049_PJSD510-Hayate_50_Gold_harbor.wowsreplay Cool story, now go back playing CV and griefing everyone else 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8093 Posted April 6, 2021 Just now, geschlittert said: Cool story, now go back playing CV and griefing everyone else and why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] geschlittert Players 874 posts 9,576 battles Report post #8094 Posted April 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: A DM has 280,000 dpm on HE, If you go with Hakuryu AP bombs, those have 20,4k damage per drop on a citadell with 3 bombs. So if you manage to get every 10s 3 citadells, you get 122,000 dpm. Or, to get the dpm of DM with AP bombs, you need to hit 3 times the citadell per drop every ~5s Did you just compare 3 citadel runs with a des moines doing only HE citadels for one minute? One is possible, the other one isn't. The actual HE DPM (if every shot fullpens) is 280,000/3 = 93.3k Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TOFTC] Pikkozoikum Players 7,658 posts 13,680 battles Report post #8095 Posted April 6, 2021 9 minutes ago, geschlittert said: Did you just compare 3 citadel runs with a des moines doing only HE citadels for one minute? One is possible, the other one isn't. The actual HE DPM (if every shot fullpens) is 280,000/3 = 93.3k I used the WoW FittingTool for max potential dmg (raw dpm). Even if you go with the Pen dmg, then we have to be way more honest about the AP bomb drop. I took also the raw dmg of thetorpedos, but we can also go with the raw dpm of HE Bombs, if you prefer. I just went with AP Bombs, because I play IJN, and I prefer to go with with what I know, though I admit, AP bombs are not the best comparison. Midway 11200x2x3=67200 for one wing. 268000 per squad. But then, while the reload is included into the DPM of the DM, it is not included in this raw value of the Squadron, it's just damage. I watched ra recent Midway video, the Midway alone took 1 Minute to reach the enemy with 50% boost The Attack takes around 5 seconds and the afterward preparation also 10 seconds. So an attack alone takes minimum of 15 seconds (In the video, the Midway needed 17s, until the next drop was ready and not including the actualy travelling and readjusting, only pure attack and go). So 15s mean 4 attacks in one minute, if those attack a perfectly dropped in a row without time inbetween. But then, the travel time must be included, you can't spawn above an enemy, you need to start the planes and move those towards the enemy. Though that's what I meant with "The CV is distance depending" The DPM decreases with a higher distance. 10 second distance + 4x15s = 268000 in 75 seconds -normalized-> 214400 (Better than a Zao at least) 30 second distance + 4x15s = 268000 in 90 seconds -normalized-> 178000 (Zao level) 60 seconds distance + 4x15s = 268000 in 120 seconds -normalized-> 134000 (That's Shimakaze level) I think times between 30s and 60s is the realistic scenario for most drops This is only raw dpm, the funny thing is, while a Des Moines has to deal with armor, the CV has to deal in some cases with protection (armor/torpedo belt) but also against AA. The AA often removes DPM ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TORAZ] El2aZeR Beta Tester 15,786 posts 26,801 battles Report post #8096 Posted April 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said: This is only raw dpm, the funny thing is, while a Des Moines has to deal with armor, the CV has to deal in some cases with protection (armor/torpedo belt) but also against AA. The AA often removes DPM ;) Theoretical DPM is a largely worthless value when comparing surface ships to CVs. Fact is CVs are the best damage dealers in the game by far by virtue of reliability, high alpha, flexibility and complete lack of counterplay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] DFens_666 Players 13,162 posts 11,029 battles Report post #8097 Posted April 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said: I used the WoW FittingTool for max potential dmg (raw dpm). Even if you go with the Pen dmg, then we have to be way more honest about the AP bomb drop. DM didnt get the memo that it should deal more damage than CVs 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[_I_] Nibenay78 Players 3,266 posts 27,734 battles Report post #8098 Posted April 6, 2021 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: The thing is again, that this is not a duel game, but people are used to play mostly against surface ships, so they thing it's a duel game. People think, that 1vs1 are fair ^^ It's very asymmetric. The only 1vs1 balancing that should happen in my opinion is inbetween a class. A Kremlin shouldn't be stronger than a Montana or GK. A FDR shouldn't be stronger than a Midway or Hakuryu. The Balance inter-class should be about "comfort". That it is fun to play against. And please, I'm talking about "honest" fun. Because everyone will come up with "It's not fun getting hit by a CV", like it's fun getting hit by DD torps or a BB broadside or an HE Spammer... so I'm mean honest fun^^ Most people dont like dying regardless, however I don't mind the others because you can generally actively do stuff to avoid torpedoes/broadsides/HE spam. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Example, the fun against CV for me is, when I outplay the CV, he misses his drop and then loses his squad. So it's fun for me Even then it's not fun, sorry. It's just annoying 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: . As a BB, when I tank the drop and kill the squad, while he did little damage. Still fun. In which BB will you just take 1 drop and kill the squad? Please let me know which BB I have to grind for that! 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I don't think we can say we have rock/paper/scissor, somehwat it might fit and somtimes not. So I generally wouldn't say we got that. It's more like a Moba or games like Battlefield with assymmetrical roles. If you go with LoL, there are roles, which dominate in League and have the most influence. Sometimes it was the jungler, because he got too much exp in the jungle and could influence all 3 lanes, while a suppoert is always the weakest. If a support would fight a 1vs1 against any ohter lane, he mostly loses always, since he has less gold and often not the skills for 1vs1. I see CV as a global class, that supports the team, where it needs support. Just like an artillery in WoT or a Commander in some shooters. (In some shooter, one could be a commander, to support other team mates with drops and airstrikes) It isn't just a support, it can effectively take out ships alone either by killing them or forcing them to retreat. Artillery in WoT is another abnormal-cell-growth, but luckily WoT is so insane that I stopped playing it years ago. I've logged back in each christmas for fun, but log out after a few days of trying... 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: It's reasonable to kill some planes, after getting one-shotted? But the current CV doesn't one-shot you, I mean a Haku with a lucky hit takes like 20k?^^ We were talking about RTS and oneshotting, obviously. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Dropping bombs in RTS was point and click, while those bombs of the Haku has to be actually aimed and since a few patches, they changed the approach of the Haku, which makes dodging(maneuvering out) easier. It was more interesting than what is now actually. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: It depends, my Kii shred all planes, before they reached me. Against T6-T8 it was a no-fly-zone, T10 a bit of. I was just repeating, what some RTS-unicums said back then, they said, they can kill DMs. And I remember also, that DMs got often oneshotted by CVs, it was a meme in ranked, like "DM don't go there alone" *DM goes alone there* *DM dead* I could kill DMs with RTS, I'm HARDLY a CV unicum. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: *captain skills, not player skill ;) And the duel is not fair, if the 1vs1 starts with HP differences, one DM damaged, one less. I think you never get a fair duel even with same ships, because the conditions are always different. Talking about the speed is quite pointless, there is no naval game, where planes are slow, that's the feature of aircraftcarriers and their squads... My bad but I'm not talking perfect fairness but I'm sure we can agree and disagree what is "fair enough". Speed is very relevant in any game. Especially in a game where the majority of the ships go around 25-35 knots with a few more extreme exceptions. Yet being able to reposition your guided weapons with 150+knots speed is rather massive. Can I please detach a BB turret and fly it around to shoot people at point blank? 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Understandable, but this is also a personal preference, I like the gameplay with CVs more, because of the meta change. Also the AA guns look awesome, I get childhood flashbacks of Wings of Fury xD AA guns and flak animations could've been included as a graphical detail anyways. the gameplay is mindnumbingly boring however. Personal perference of course. But it was nice to have a game inside the game that was different. WG didn't think so of course. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Nah, that match was worse then that. And funny thing is, it seems the ranked is DD meta. I get a lot 4 DDs per side matches. One was 5 DDs I think, didn't pay attention. I would expect people would go with the "broken" CV ^^ Though somone mentioned, that they changed the AA explosions with 10.1 Because DDs are a rather influential class to begin with. I met some broken CVs, it wasn't fun. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: That is out of context. Don't mix different statements ;) One was a statement about, that DDs could be a support class The other statement is, that DDs have way stronger AA, than it makes sense. But for pvp-game design flair, they make some very strong. My question was just HOW would a DD be a support? mostly out of curiousity. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Compare Akizuki and Yamato: Akizuki total dps 249 with 39x25mm 8x100mm Yamato total dps 536 (without the hitchance reduction, which would be even lower than DD) with 162x25mm 25x125mm 4x13,2mm It has ike 5 times the guns, but only double the dps. It's because the aa guns are not really calculated, they dps values get a fixed value for pvp balance. Otherwise DDs would be all weak and BBs all strong AA wise^^ But I actually play DDs as supports, I smoke my cruiser, lurk around the cap, give AA support, when they go for my cruiser, then I cap. Torping when possible, and gunning down the DD, who thinks, he is John Rambo :3 (I ranked out with Hayate into gold xD) There is no biggest issue, the RTS had many issues. One issue were the AA-extremes, not only when I played weak AA ships, but also when I played CV. I played Kaga and one shotted BBs with weak AA, while I did nothing to AA strong ships. For me it's a boring gameplay. Those BBs were real victims, getting shot down by one air raid. Sometimes I felt bad for these one shots. I mean, it's not like they did anything wrong, they had just no choice, they relied on having AA-strong friends, but if their CV is not helping and no AA ships available -> rip xD If now someone gets rekt, it's mostly a DD, but there it's very often their fault. Their ships are fast and have options, not like an RTS-AA-Weak BB DDs suffers most because they are up front against an enemy that can both strike and spot them again and again, and while faster and manouverable than bigger ships, they still can't always relocate to safety if slightly extended very quickly. Sure they should probably not have gone there in the first place.. But then we're back to whats fun. Clearly sneaking around or flanking alone isn't fun for you. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Knew, you would go for that, it's a hyperbole and it's translated, that many people prefer that. When someone says "nobody" or "all", then it's never truely meant as that, just a hyperbole to make clear, that the number is probably so large, that the other number doesn't matter much. Like, when 95% of people would hate CV, people would say "all hate CV" Then use "majority" or something. Plus I'd like to see if it's really as bad as you say that people dont like playing support class. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I often skill only the 2pt AA skill for an addtional cloud and better sector. The long range is actually quite good, because when an enemy attacks a friend, he mostly zic zacs through the Long range, and then passes straight through med and short range. But then with your long range, the med and short range phase has also flak explosions ^^ Also I said earlier, someone mentioned, they changed the flap explosions, maybe it's now better, no idea. I actually took lately more flak explosions I don't care how WG changes flak anymore. The newbies sometimes ram it and the better ones don't. It generally makes little difference. WG have said that they will keep the popularity of the class regardless of the measures to do so. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: The sector changing is quite good. The Dps tick faster, so a plane can be shot down faster, also you can improve the sector, which gives a big boost. My Shikishima has with skill 160% on one side. The dps are 100, 375, 200 = 675 when reinforcing it's 1080 It's a nice value :) I assume that includes the insane factor WG has added into the math. Anyways most of it is at <4.5km. Oh wait maybe some thunderer has hit you once.... 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Though you already have a panic effect, when moving around, the aiming is spreading. With RTS, there was no wide spread, they always had the perfect drop. What they should change, that there is more a penalty, when moving around. Ships like Enterprise, Midway and so one have almost no punishment for moving around But not to the extent they could pinpoint the attack. Midway had a large spread that even broadside torpedoes could miss. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: With 0 damage I mean, that they might run into flak more often ;) But then it's their own fault, when approach a surface ship. With RTS it was even worse. They lost all their planes, because the other CV was so good,. or in other words: The Bad CV player did fewer damage, because of the interaction vs an enemy CV mostly. Now A bad player will do fewer damage unrelated to the skill of an enemy. So it's purely depending on it's own skill. That means surface ships are not relying on the skill of the CV. (Of course a Team relies on the players, but I mean in case of impact of a CV, a surface ships is not relying on the protection of a CV, that he dominates the other CV) True, he relies only on the auto-generated-flak and steadily diminishing AA value. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I think a worse player does now better in general, so the skill gap is smaller. For example, when I would have played RTS CV against Elazer, I would probbly fail hard. But now with the rework, my impact won't be disturbed much by the enemy. Yeah instead of him raping your planes, You'd fly into flak :D Same result though. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: When we give that numbers, lets say an average player has 10 TUIU (TUIU = The ultimative impact unit, which express the impact on a battlefield) Now I have 13 TUIU and Elazer has 20 TUIU. When I would play against Elazer, he would influence my own impact and lower it down to 5 TUIU, while I maybe get a luck shots or something and his impact is 19 TUIU With the rework, there is no such influence of the other CVs mostly. so I would still have my 13 TUIU and Elazer would have his 20 TUIU. The skill gap is smaller, and one team is not totally fucked, because one CV drops hard. One reason, why I prefer the Rework over the RTS A unicum said that, I personally see mostly the no fly zones. Also there is a huge difference here. The example was killing a single no-fly-zone DM with AP bombs^^ Not having 80% of the fleet as no fly zone ships. It would be impossible to reach any ships, until a thunderer melted all their AA down to 40% But also, the difference was, it was a no-fly-zone vs RTS, not no-fly-zone vs rework. The Rework has a different game design and has different approaches. No fly zones would not work Lets not forget these no-fly-zones tended to be squishy ships that die reasonably fast. It's not much more different than "no sail zone" against 2 DM with radars. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Well, it's up to you, but it helps, when you see the CV not 1vs1 enemy and this game like a ego shooter, even though it has some aspects of an ego shooter. You have to see it like a Moba combined with ego shooter in a naval battle scenario. In Mobas you have champion/hero designs, that can do stuff globally on the whole map or even become invincble. The designs are different. While a CV can strike a BB without getting back fired, the BB still can tank it and reduce strike power. A CV can't tank damage. A CV could reduce the strike power of a BB (though it could damage a gun of a DD or maybe a cruiser, but the effect is way weaker) it's mostly an ego shooter. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: No, they were actually even weaker... they got buffed over the time :D Zao back than at 10km torps. Zao was one of the best ships in the early game, AA not so good. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Shima had up and downs. But there was a time, where she had the current torpedos and even worse concealment, until they buffed the concealment. I can mostly speak of the IJN ships, and those often have no advatange duo their weak AA. Shima was buffed due to influx of other gunboat DDs I believe. It still outspotted Gearing when that was the only opponent. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Didn't got the IJN big buffs while the rework was even out? I mean buffs like accuracy and so on, I don' remember. And going with Shima, it was even worse. With rework, we got an 10% concealment buff, but also the RTS can spot torpedos and place a perma-spotting dive bomber with high speed and infinite HP (When planes left the AA, they instantly healed up) Iirc they didnt take damage, they just rolled for a kill shot each second. This could've been easily improved by AA getting better if the planes loitered around too long. Representing the gunners getting the bearing on the planes or whatever. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: The thing is, "just buff the AA" wouldn't be the solution. The CV needed a rework. No matter if it would be a RTS -> Action play rework or a RTS -> new RTS rework. But nobody can say, if a reworked RTS would be better, could be also worse ;) I think in the minds of the most, it would be better xD But I don't think so, because Wargaming would go with the same approach to the RTS. They would make it easier, better looking and trying to give them less impact. I think the unicums would then complain, that the old RTS was better^^ Sure, WG wants a game where crap players can join in and make a small impact instead of being annihilated by the better players. Fair enough. But I'd also enjoy that my skill is useful. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I have a spliited opinion about that. On one side, I really can't understand, why Developers (not only WG) have so big issues with buffing/nerfing. On the other hand I think. There are so many Developers, who have this issue to make tiny changes, which are commentated often by players, that I think, that they see something, that we can't see. ^^ I don't think that AA is a strong attribute. I think, it's not even an attribute for ship balance. I think Torpedos are a very big attribute. Just compare ships like Minotaur, Zao, Yoshino with other ships. Best is Yoshino vs Stalingrad. Yoshino has maneuverbility, but I think Stalingrad is still pretty fast? Yoshino also needs the mobility, because of the squishy amor, while stalin has one of the best amors Then the guns: Yoshino guns are not the best, while Stalin has on the guns: -short fuse -improved auto-bounce angles -high velocity Those guns are brutal Azuma has not the torpedos, though she is T9 Maybe it's not weighted as important, but I would be surprised if it's not there. Lets say you could chose to be immune to CV Strikes. Wouldn't that be worth something. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: It's kinda hard, to calculate the DPM, because the CV DPM also depend on the distance. A DM has 280,000 dpm on HE, If you go with Hakuryu AP bombs, those have 20,4k damage per drop on a citadell with 3 bombs. So if you manage to get every 10s 3 citadells, you get 122,000 dpm. Or, to get the dpm of DM with AP bombs, you need to hit 3 times the citadell per drop every ~5s I think 5s is not relaistic. Even 10s is not very realistic. So according to AP bombs of Hakuryu, the dpm is way lower. Torpedo bombers have 10k rounded up on Haku, and 10 planes, so one squad can do 100k dmg. I don't have the numbers, and currently don't have Haku (researching), but I think a single drop takes around 10s, with engaging, turning, engaging etc. 20k dmg in 10s = 120k dmg and that is without getting a new squadron, which would lower the dpm. There is also another effect, that you can see, why the dpm is low. - An aircraft carrier surives way more often and longer, even if he dies, thus he has more time to deal damage and increase the total damage number - Surface ships survive way less, and also die sometimes very early, those have no potential to reach high total damage numbers. -> This means, the actualy total damage doesn't really reflects the dpm of a ship. The total damage we see on CVs in statistic is just higher, because a CV survives longer, not because the dpm is so high. Example what I mean You play 2 times a CV and 2 times a BB CV - 110k dmg, survives to the end, because CV CV - 110k dmg, survives to the end, because CV BB - 180k dmg, surivevs BB - 20k dmg, dies early The total dmg is now 110k in average for the CV and 100k for the BB. It looks like the BB does less damage, but actually the damage potential of the BB is higher, it just died too early, thus the DPM is probably higher. I meant DPM in RTS and crap-work. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Well, he didn't miss, he just had to drop, because his planes were about to die, I was moving away and aligning. But the thing is, people here act often like that CV is always a unicum and always do max dmg. I really rarely have that experience. I take here and there a little damage, and very rarely I mess it really up -> Thats my experiences Two fires are like one flood (not sure about exact numbers), there is no reason to save the DCP Those floods were not interesting, it was super frustrating, because it feels random. You die by randomness. 1. That a torpedo hits is often randomess 2. The flood chance is a chance 3. not having DCP for that flood is a bad coincidence. To much stuff, what you can foresee. I played Hayate a lot, and my major threats are torpedos, because Hayate is actually a battleship v_v It feels actually worse than Harugumo somehow, no idea why Don't get me wrong, I love these huge fires and I would love to see this in games, but that is more something for a simulation game, less for a pvp game. Funny enough, an old game did also well https://t.gamesnostalgia.com/screenshots/b/a/battlehawks-1942/main_small.jpg hum.. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: I think you missunderstood me there. I mean DoT not as a single damage effect like a fire, a poision, but as a gameplay. For example take the minotaur vs a heavy cruiser or Battleship Minotaur is mostly doing Damage over Time with small shells. Single shells don't do much dmg. While a battle ship does high damage hits with a single shells. Which is why many dislike Minotaur, however at least when I play it, I tend to have more DPM when actually firing than in most other ships. 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: Same with CV, it was a "Battleship" in RTS and now it's a "Minotaur". instead of having this one single alpha strike attack with 50k-100k dmg, you get now 5k-20k attacks, but over time Huge alfa felt more... realistic (a word I dont like to use here, lets call it immersive and having versimilitude). 5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said: That's the thing, it was only an invisible HP drain + Chance. You also you did only left clicking the planes. That's not fun. vs. Planes have no visible HP, you now what is happening with your dps. But also you need to work around your sector, you have a burst effect and it should be used with the right timing. You can mess up a sector reinforcment, I did that now and then^^ But in the way how you say it, it's more or less the same ;) But even then, I prefer HP bars over invisible chances. Generally I prefer the more realistic and complex system, and don't like HP bars, but for Warships the HP bars are actually better stuff.. It would be interesting to play without HP bars though.. Quote I don't see left clicking as an intersting design ^^ The panic effect is only for DefAA, otherwise the Planes had a perfect drop. Now the planes have that included. In the replay you can even see, how you can make that work by speed juking the CV As mr crappy CV player, I dont find it awfully hard to make make perfect drops. Basically again it's in the attackers hands not defender. Even DDs have random spreads on torpedoes. Quote Watch it, but as I said, it's not about great plays, it's about, why I have fun against CVs and you get more often those type of CVs, than unicums ^^ Really thinking to skip it. Quote tbh, something don't need disadvantges to be balanced. An allrounder class has no disadvantges for example :P Sure but then the allrounder can count as a baseline for each stat/attribute/callitwhatever Quote But the disadvantages are -Adds "no" HP pool for the team / Tanking (CVs mostly can't help out a losing team with the HP pool, it will just watch, how the Team dies, I saw that very often) This is not a disadvantage, if one team has a CV so does the other. In fact it a reason to dislike CVs even more. For every CV pair added, the pressure on the surface ships is just increased. I suggest we allow 3-4 CVS pr side and see how amazingly fun it will be for everyone else. As I said before, I played a 6 vs 6 random match with 3 CVs on each side. Great fun! Complately irrelevant attribute, and if it gets under gunfire from a single destroyer, it's not uncomming to see the destroyer blow up before these "non-tanking HP" run out. We can argue back and forth if this is fair or not, but it certainly breaks my immersion when a CV out-tanks a gunship close up (ignoring torpedoes obviously). Quote -Worst Ship for Capping (CVs loses game, just because the enemy DDs got the caps) Again, both both teams have one less capper so kinda irrelevant stat/attribute Quote -DPM dependency on AA (The Damage of a CV gets reduced by a passive effect, no other ship classes loses 50-80% of the guns, just because it attacks another ship. Bad players will lose even more, thus their DPM is low, bad for a CV and the DPM, big disadvantage.) No other ships rips apart armor (destroys AA mounts) with each strike, while ALSO having the benefit that any other damage done by anyone else will also lower the defences effectively. Thus increasing DPM. Quote Of course you can cap and tank in a CV, but that can be rather a failure, than an ability. A battleship can be also a spotter... that's not the point^^ But as I said, a ship doesn't need disadvantages to be working fine. Maybe the word Advantages is wrong, you could use traits or features as well. Every ship type has it's features. A CV has fast planes. A battle ship has very high Alpha damage. A destroyer has very good concealment A CV has all the better attributes which is most of the time relevant and bad attributes are most of the time irrelevant. Quote That's why I can't understand, why going with the features of the CV, it's same I would say "DDs have too good concealment" or "Battleships have too much alpha" ^^ And then we can consider their worse attributes. It's generally how ships are balanced to some extent. Quote If I sumarize, what people bothers, then we would get a CV, that - Can't spot - Gets his squadron instant deleted by (T10s) Minotaur, Halland, Petro, A Newski, Stalingrad, Des Moines, Wooster, Shikishiima, Kremlin, Montana (?), Thunderer, Gearing (def AA), Austin, - Squadrons fly slower (60-80 Knots?) - Less dmg? :D Before I liked the occational CV match, even though they had a massive impact. Now I report every CV player I meet and would be happy to have the entire class removed along with all AA effect, even if that would lessen the immersion. Just gone. Quote Would be funny to see that. The thing is, all I hear is rant, nobody is really talking about, what should change, while I sadly react to rant, though I always try to come up with proposals how to improve it. Just take a look at the recon plane suggestion, I think that would fix a lot. Why bother? WG doesn't give a single excrement about suggestions here. Ranting at least feels better, even if it's also irrelevant. Plus I need something to do while waiting for the Minotaur get back to port after being nuked by some CV. Quote Yes, it's always easy to say "just do that", but the reality is different. Theory is not praxis. Even a cruiser will kill the low HP BB. When you are in your Mino, and you see a low HP BB, don't you just kill him, when he is that low? You gave an example being torped by a DD in a BB. The BB most likely has 40-90 seconds to make ANY random manouver that could possibly save him. In this spesific case it IS just as easy to not sit still, in which case I think we both agree he deserves to die. Just the same with players who doesn't know how to turn. Quote That's the thing I mentioned multiple times "supreme against all classes", that's not how you should look at any class. The game is not that easy to break down, it't not rock paper siccsor. And btw, in the 1vs1 brawl ,the BB was superior over CV :P But why bother playing anything else then? it is not perfect rock/paper/sciccors, but its close enough. Sure there are expections but overall it kinda works that way. 1 vs 1 is certainly not 12 vs 12 NOR is it a duel in a 12 vs 12 match. If a CV goes for me in 12vs12 we both knows that even if I'm alone for the moment, I can't spend the next 3 minutes rushing the CV in a BB without anyone seeing me and engaging. That said I had something like 70-80% winrate in CV in the brawls and I consider myself pretty crap in CV. Quote Reveal hidden contents Again, it's mostly not about deplaning, it's about reducing strike potential. What is better, having 1 strike, or 3 strikes in a row for a cv player? Basically the CV is like having a smolensk player that can see and shoot the entire map. Due to range he will not have the best DPM but he will never stop hitting you. Great fun! Also if his aim is on you, everone else sees you! Quote But for real, lets get back the no-flyzones. Buff the AA by 300% dmg for cruisers like Minotaur. Do you think that improves the gameplay? For many people, yes. Also didn't we agree no-flyzones didn't stop devstrikes back then? But again, right now I'd be happy to lose all my Carriers and have the crap class removed. Quote The thing is, I'm an allrounder, I play DD, BB, cruiser and CV. So I know all sides and I know, what me bothers with each ship type. Good good, clearly you're not bothered by playing against a class that effectively is griefing other players. edit: dont play and write, might miss half the quote! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BBMM] BLUB__BLUB [BBMM] Players 8,818 posts 17,199 battles Report post #8099 Posted April 6, 2021 29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said: Theoretical DPM is a largely worthless value when comparing surface ships to CVs. Fact is CVs are the best damage dealers in the game by far by virtue of reliability, high alpha, flexibility and complete lack of counterplay. Fact is that such is only a fact for CV players that have any idea of what they are doing. If they don't, then they: - can't deal damage (can't even aim... waste > 50% of the dropped stuff); - they'll not see where they are needed (there goes the flexibility); - and they are counterplayed by their own counterb0ts (AKA the unicum-non-relevant AA). I'm only hearing the sound of GitGud faintly... yesss masterrrr.... much GitGud to do stil... ...but at least I'm sure I'm not hearing a wet fart. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CHEFT] geschlittert Players 874 posts 9,576 battles Report post #8100 Posted April 6, 2021 1 hour ago, El2aZeR said: Theoretical DPM is a largely worthless value when comparing surface ships to CVs. Fact is CVs are the best damage dealers in the game by far by virtue of reliability, high alpha, flexibility and complete lack of counterplay. Yeah, theoretical DPM is only useful for intra class comparisons, and even then the penetration of the HE can have a huge impact... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
