General CV related discussions.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Sooo...

 

5 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

when cruising,

- planes move above the clouds... they spot nothing. They are also non-vulnerable to AA;

- planes have their higher (boosted) speed;

- CV has to use the minimap, rely on stuff spotted by other ships. 

- if CV wants to "take a peek" he has to "dive under clouds" and become vulnerable.

CV gain an invulnability and speed buff... and only lose the ability to spot enemy ships themselves. Yeah, balanced...

and...

 

5 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

When attacking/spotting
- planes are much much slower (as a result, they have to avoid more FLAK);

- planes will spot on minimap, and "live feed " only for the ships that are "in spotting distance". 

Spotting distance would mean, the distance that the ships themselves would be spotted once they fired their guns.

 

So, a DD that has 6 km concealment but 12 km when firing, would be spotted for anyone within 12km. 

That spotting would last for same time as when the guns were actually fired. 

However, if that DD would smoke up or hide behind a mountain, the spotting would end.

...so CVs get no really de-buff, because it's more or less as it's now, except for DDs, who get royally f*cked, as the spotting range was increased from "AA range" to "gun range" which is a teeny-weeny difference... only a couple km or so... nothing serious...

 

Yeah, this looks like the kind of "nerf" WG might even implement.

 

7 hours ago, Nit0 said:

So, some changes to current model of CV. I don't think it needs drastic changes like some here suggest. The biggest problem for everyone else is CV spotting so much. Here are my suggestions:

Looks like a doable and feasible "nerf" for CVs. So there's no chance that WG will implement anything like that.

[El2aZeR]

Ran into a fighter build FDR in my last match.

I...

I just...

Yeah.

[Odo_Toothless]

8 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

when cruising,

- planes have their higher (boosted) speed; (...)

When attacking/spotting

- planes are much much slower (as a result, they have to avoid more FLAK);

 

Cruising speed is much slower then maximum to reduce fuel consumption and nobody sane will reduce speed in flak cover. I know this is only a game, but this is a total fantasy.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Yeah, this looks like the kind of "nerf" WG might even implement.

Does. It would at least remove the spotting. 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, Odo_Toothless said:

 

Cruising speed is much slower then maximum to reduce fuel consumption and nobody sane will reduce speed in flak cover. I know this is only a game, but this is a total fantasy.

and then we got twin engine interceptor fighters as TB and DB, but never launched from a carrier (J5N)

[Deckeru_Maiku]

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

and then we got twin engine interceptor fighters as TB and DB, but never launched from a carrier (J5N)

I'm also not too sure about the ability of carrier operated torpedo bombers to carry and launch two torpedoes...

but hey, this is an action game and not a serious simulation... so it would probably also okay when they would drop dolphins filled with explosives to attack ships, right?!?

[Nov_A]

Can I has question?

 

So people often meme about AA not being existant, but lately I got a game which was really annoying/hard to play due to ships like Halland, Östergötland, Neptune, Buffalo, Smolensk, and Thunderer - all equipped with Def AA and an Enterprise in the enemy team. Normally I dont struggle that much but this game was really an uphill battle in terms of AA. Shokek may not be my crown jewel in terms of performance, but I still get quite good results.

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/127107#teams

 

Pls halp on how 2 improove when facing such large amounts of AA.

[Nibenay78]

33 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

Pls halp on how 2 improove when facing such large amounts of AA.

Ask WG for an AA nerf.

 

I mean its not like a single dd can get bad matchup against 4 radar cruisers and a CV on top.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Nov_A said:

Can I has question?

 

So people often meme about AA not being existant, but lately I got a game which was really annoying/hard to play due to ships like Halland, Östergötland, Neptune, Buffalo, Smolensk, and Thunderer - all equipped with Def AA and an Enterprise in the enemy team. Normally I dont struggle that much but this game was really an uphill battle in terms of AA. Shokek may not be my crown jewel in terms of performance, but I still get quite good results.

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/127107#teams

 

Pls halp on how 2 improove when facing such large amounts of AA.

"AA not being existant " means for some "I can't delete a full squad, before they get a single drop out"

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Nov_A said:

Pls halp on how 2 improove when facing such large amounts of AA.

 

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

In order according to match time:

- The enemy CV has failed the wheelchair check by attempting to fighter you. This is very important info as it inevitably means that the enemy CV is not skilled, but that also means he will probably attempt to fighter you at any given opportunity.

 

- You are reacting far too late to incoming AA, leading you to take flak. This is where you need to pay attention to your detection indicator, if it flips to AA, IMMEDIATELY change your course.

 

- If you wanted to attack the Öster you should have flown a loop left instead of blocking your line of sight by flying over the island. Regardless, that the Öster is heading A side gives you extremely valuable information in combination with your initial middle scout. It means that middle is empty so you can focus your attention elsewhere.

 

- Shortening your squad immediately is often a mistake as it precludes you from dealing more damage on potential targets of opportunity. You can always shorten later if needed, you cannot get back shortened wings.

 

- You should have ignored the DD in smoke and either attacked the Kii or the Buffalo. Both are excellent targets. In particular you could have gone for multiple runs on the Buffalo if you had kept your wings instead. This is what I mean by missing opportunities when shortening your squad immediately.

 

- Buffalo ded, nice job. Although personally I would have actually gone for the Öster in A since he was in a fairly vulnerable spot and spotted. Your teammates should have had no issues dealing with the Buffalo themselves and he is locked into that position, meaning that if needed you can always deal with him later.

 

- At this point it would have perhaps been better to go for the Kagero top right since your teammates have no options to combat it. There is no denying middle since Shima has smoke and it could have only been the Shima since all other DDs were spotted elsewhere. On a sidenote your strike on the Öster got messed up because of the island. This is why you should have gone further right to get a normal approach rather than over the island. You should only attack over islands if you know you are going to hit.

 

- Unlucky attack on the Thunderer. Personally I would have attempted to bait the Kagero out of smoke instead. At any rate you should pretty much always leave a fighter above a DD that is smoking up to see if he immediately leaves afterwards, which he did in this case, and provide spotting for your teammates.

 

- Your rockets should have been committed to the Kagero. A side is completely lost at this point anyway, you need to focus on keeping what teammates you have alive. Kagero is in a prime position to threaten your two teammates top, he needs to be killed immediately.

Still, you manage an excellent attack on the Halland both in damage and killing an AA mount.

 

- Everything else you played out more or less correctly. Note that not getting the Kagero killed cost you your Yoshino up top, this could have been avoided and both your Neptune and your Yoshino would have likely survived against the Iowa, making the win more safe.

 

Honestly while probably tedious, it didn't look to me as if you were struggling. You maintained a healthy reserve of aircraft throughout the entire match in spite of the few mistakes you made in regards to flak against a fairly daunting line up. Well done.

[Nibenay78]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:59 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

"AA not being existant " means for some "I can't delete a full squad, before they get a single drop out"

Or "I can't shoot down a single plane while the carrier does what it want"

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Or "I can't shoot down a single plane while the carrier does what it want"

"While I'm playing Asashio"? xD

[Nibenay78]

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

"While I'm playing Asashio"? xD

Shouldn't poor Asashio have a chance to down a plane???

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Nibenay78 said:

Shouldn't poor Asashio have a chance to down a plane???

Yes, please buff Asashio :3

[Pogglebox]

Every other class has cool down periods. I'm fed up with playing games where the CV focuses one ship and sends wave after wave to attack without penalty or cooldown. Makes the game totally unenjoyable. If I equip defensive AA, have fighter planes and good AA, which I do, I expect to either kill the enemy aircraft attacking me before they do damage or at least for them to have to wait 90 seconds if a wave is wiped out before they can launch another, to give me a chance to tactically re-position. I just lost 50% of my HP to 3 consecutive waves where there were 3 of us with good AA grouped together. The CV was focused on me as I have zero heals available. I tried to retreat but was then deleted by a BB. Probably only 4 minutes into the game.... Really f&$%^%$ angry at the moment.

[hamed_pour]

Average player here.

 

I have been very frustrated past 3 weeks with CVs out spotting my CLs and AP rockets completely demolishing me. I tried my hand at ranked with BB but got completely owned by CVs there as well which seem to be in most my games now. It's the spotting that gets me the most, not even the being cross torped or AP bombed really. Just being spotted constantly regardless of my ship. 

I spent £7 for 30 days of prem last week. But I am currently violently outranged that I spent 2 drinks worth of cash on WGing.     

I think that when something in a game makes me that angry it's time to shelf that game for awhile.

 

Hope the rest of you are at least having some fun.

[Nibenay78]

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, please buff Asashio :3

How many ships clustered together would you consider "fair" to actually kill a squadron before a strike is made? 

Is it ok to fly straight over a AA maxed out minotaur to kill the battleship behind (edit: about 2-4km directly behind, edit2: for clarification - minotaur (me) was barely damaged and BB behind was at about 40-50% hp and he was essential to keep alive)? 

[Pikkozoikum]

44 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

How many ships clustered together would you consider "fair" to actually kill a squadron before a strike is made? 

Is it ok to fly straight over a AA maxed out minotaur to kill the battleship behind (edit: about 2-4km directly behind, edit2: for clarification - minotaur (me) was barely damaged and BB behind was at about 40-50% hp and he was essential to keep alive)? 

If the CV is good, one strike should be mostly always possible.

Same like you still can get shot and damaged, even if you dodge, angle etc.

This was the issue, that I saw with RTS-CV, there were no-fly-zones and I-don't-care-zones. AA was extremly heavy or "non existant".

 

Not sure about your example. I think the CV lost his planes for a single strike and he needed to repeat those single strikes multiple times? That's totally fine, but tbh, in a BB I never felt a threat by a CV at T10. They just add some extra dmg on the top. It's even better with CV just because they scare sometimes the DDs away, which are my issue, when I play BB.

 

BBs have really no reason to cry about the rework, there are so many changes in favor for the BB

 

The thing is. If you would have AA like in RTS times, CV would become unplayable. We have way more good anti AA ship to chose from. A match would be like 2x Halland, 2x Petro, 1x Mino, 1xDM or Wooster, 1x Shiki or any other AA heavy bb (for ranked)

Every ship would be a no-fly zone :D

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

13 hours ago, Pogglebox said:

Every other class has cool down periods. I'm fed up with playing games where the CV focuses one ship and sends wave after wave to attack without penalty or cooldown. Makes the game totally unenjoyable.

You might play the CV at least up to T8. You will notice the difference of single, isolated ships with weak AA, and groups of AA.

I can give you two examples, which happen both:

 

1. A single DD, moving straight, with weaker AA(worst case even AA on). The CV strikes with 1st wing of the squad full broad side with high dmg, strikes with 2nd wing full broadside with high dmg, and strikes with 3rd wing full broadside with high dmg. DD almost dead, or dead.

 

2. A DD close by a cruiser. The CV tries to strike and the DD bows in. CV loses planes at approach and after strike. Only 1st strike made with minor dmg (0-2 rockets hit) The next approach would take ~40-60s

 

There is clearly something like "cooldowns". Killing planes reduces the DPS/DPM of the CV heavily

 

It's like you play a battleship with 4x3 guns. Now you aim at a single ship, and fire all your 12 guns.

But then there are 4 ships grouped, and just by that fact, 1 turret get deactivated for the shot one them, and in some cases 3 turrets get deactivated, you can only shoot with one turret. Only because they are grouped. (AA is passive)

Just to make clear, losing planes has impact.

 

14 hours ago, Pogglebox said:

If I equip defensive AA, have fighter planes and good AA, which I do, I expect to either kill the enemy aircraft attacking me before they do damage or at least for them to have to wait 90 seconds if a wave is wiped out before they can launch another, to give me a chance to tactically re-position.

Yes, would like to have a button as BB to become immune to DDs for a minute as well :D

 

The thing is, if you play right, the CV does no to little damage. If you take high damage from a single drop, while you played correctly, that is mostly RNG based or just bad luck.

 

As described ealier, without good AA, a CV will get 2 or 3 strikes, which happen in like every 10s. With good AA, the CV will need ~40-60s. You can say, he does ~5 times less dmg for 3 drops.

I think they also lowered the speed of planes a few times in the past

 

14 hours ago, Pogglebox said:

The CV was focused on me as I have zero heals available. I tried to retreat but was then deleted by a BB. Probably only 4 minutes into the game.... Really f&$%^%$ angry at the moment.

you could also upload the replay, if you want a review :)

 

 

2 hours ago, hamed_pour said:

Average player here.

 

I have been very frustrated past 3 weeks with CVs out spotting my CLs and AP rockets completely demolishing me. I tried my hand at ranked with BB but got completely owned by CVs there as well which seem to be in most my games now. It's the spotting that gets me the most, not even the being cross torped or AP bombed really. Just being spotted constantly regardless of my ship. 

I spent £7 for 30 days of prem last week. But I am currently violently outranged that I spent 2 drinks worth of cash on WGing.     

I think that when something in a game makes me that angry it's time to shelf that game for awhile.

 

Hope the rest of you are at least having some fun.

I think the spotting should change as well, did some proposal, but those were to complex, said WG.

AP rockets are strong against cruiser, the only advice is, that you need constantly aware of the enemy CV. I mostly be able to bait rocket planes, but I also play IJN ships, the cruisers shoot on long distance and turn well

 

I personally have more fun with CVs in matches, because I know how the CV works and what I can do, but also it's a good counter against DDs. And even in a DD I like them, because I often know better how to play against a CV, than other DDs, so I'm in an advantage :D

[Nibenay78]

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If the CV is good, one strike should be mostly always possible.

Same like you still can get shot and damaged, even if you dodge, angle etc.

In most circumstances you can dodge shells and angle to a very significant degree. As we both know it's usually not 100% damage reduction - but your skill is quite essential in the moment.

 

1) If you are "good" in CV you can chip away a weakened opponent REGARDLESS of his skill and even multiple defenders. If he disengages too far, he will just fall behind the "AA blob" and probably be an even easier target, at the cost of slightly longer flying time. At worst you'll lose your squad (which is irrelevant until late game)

2) if you are "good" in a surface ship, the fact you have to move into firing range of a "blob" will probably leave you massively damaged and either forced to retreat or die under steel spam. Usually not a trade worth to do.

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This was the issue, that I saw with RTS-CV, there were no-fly-zones and I-don't-care-zones. AA was extremly heavy or "non existant".

Sure it could be more evened out, but did they bother? Yet I have distinct memories of one shotting full health Des Moines that were static and inattentive while playing CV. As it should be when attacker makes a good run and defender has target fixation on someone else.

 

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

Not sure about your example. I think the CV lost his planes for a single strike and he needed to repeat those single strikes multiple times? That's totally fine, but tbh, in a BB I never felt a threat by a CV at T10. They just add some extra dmg on the top. It's even better with CV just because they scare sometimes the DDs away, which are my issue, when I play BB.

 

It's a while since I played this game, it was well before commander rework.

 

Me (minotaur) and a BB (i think tier 9) was left on our side and CV and a radar cruiser was left on the other. Now I really needed the BB to harass the radar cruiser in order to go cap as we were behind on points.

they were on the north side, and we came from south, both towards central cap.

 

I was almost undamaged and like I said, positioned myself about 3-4km in front of the BB to force the CV to either fly over me OR at least make a massive circle around, in which time I could fall back.

He kept flying mostly over me with full squads and he was an average CV player. He managed to chip away some 40-50k hp on the BB while nothing else happened and the enemy cruiser was still out of firing range. I did my best to keep within medium AA range using sector reinf and turning to keep the sector pointed at the planes for maximum amount of time.

 

The BB also "tried to dodge" as best he could. He died after probably 4-5 squads having passed over me. At which point I became the target...

 

and let me add a disclaimer - its a while ago and details may be wrong. I do not have the replay. However the situation left me really really negative towards the rework and it's a few minutes of gameplay I'll always remember from this game. Why can a average CV bascially ignore THE BEST aa ship in the game and just kill off a damaged BB during endgame? I'm a "slightly above average" Minotaur player and the BB did as best he could. Yet our efforts were completely irrellevant. In a situation that the CV should be 

 

We all know that good AA ships are "balanced" around actually having good AA back in the day. Fine, let Minotaur AA drop to average like all other ships and give me 15% faster reload and a bit more hitpoints...

 

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

BBs have really no reason to cry about the rework, there are so many changes in favor for the BB

I agree, BBs came out best of the rework, but that's only because everyone else came out VASTLY worse. The only reason I don't worry in a BB is that usually there are just more juicy targets for a CV than me, not because my beloved Montana actually has AA that discourages strikes.

 

Wouldn't it increase immersion of BBs were the prime targets of carriers and GOOD (AA) cruiser play would also include supporting them with AA? If every strike always can come through you can never save a low hp friend.
 

[Pikkozoikum]

28 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

In most circumstances you can dodge shells and angle to a very significant degree. As we both know it's usually not 100% damage reduction - but your skill is quite essential in the moment.

 

1) If you are "good" in CV you can chip away a weakened opponent REGARDLESS of his skill and even multiple defenders. If he disengages too far, he will just fall behind the "AA blob" and probably be an even easier target, at the cost of slightly longer flying time. At worst you'll lose your squad (which is irrelevant until late game)

2) if you are "good" in a surface ship, the fact you have to move into firing range of a "blob" will probably leave you massively damaged and either forced to retreat or die under steel spam. Usually not a trade worth to do.

Well, the AA alone reduces the damage of a CV heavily. Try in a test room how many damage you do in 10 minutes with all wings and with only one wing each attack. ^^

Then you additionally reduce the damage by maneuvering.

Same like surface ships, it's never a guarantee.

 

1) And when a single BB sits stationary somewhere, a DD can one shot it. You can pick for any class favorable scenarios. And in worst case, you lose your DPM, this means, you did nothing. Do you want a BB in the back, that is not shooting?  :)

2) Move into blop, I would just say, to play with your team together. I play recently DD and I just observe the CV, when he goes in my direciton, I move to a cruiser, if the area is clear, I can peek out, spot, torp etc.  I know many people prefer the John Rambo scenario, but I see no issue with having DD as a support ship. Tbh it's actually a better design, because the DD is a very ship irl, it would only make sense to translate that into a support class in a game. But people like big damage numbers and solo Rambo plays, so probably nobody would like a support role^^

 

36 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sure it could be more evened out, but did they bother? Yet I have distinct memories of one shotting full health Des Moines that were static and inattentive while playing CV. As it should be when attacker makes a good run and defender has target fixation on someone else.

Well, they bothered, they changed it. But I don't think that the current AA system would work on RTS-CVs. It probably would need an additional "rework" (not talking about the flak clouds)

I also remembe,r how a CV unicum meant back then, that he easily baits out DefAA of a Desmoines and rekt them. ^^

 

I think that even cruisers have it better against CV, if you don't take No-Fly zones into account. It's easier to read a CVs attack pattern. Back then you just got bombed and in some cases you could dodge the Torp drop, if it was bad aimed. But cross drops and Divebomber were brutal, there was no "Oh I bow in and then the rockets will mostly miss". Having 5 squads at you makes it really hard to play against.

Especially when you are in ships like Nagato xD

 

42 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

It's a while since I played this game, it was well before commander rework.

 

Me (minotaur) and a BB (i think tier 9) was left on our side and CV and a radar cruiser was left on the other. Now I really needed the BB to harass the radar cruiser in order to go cap as we were behind on points.

they were on the north side, and we came from south, both towards central cap.

 

I was almost undamaged and like I said, positioned myself about 3-4km in front of the BB to force the CV to either fly over me OR at least make a massive circle around, in which time I could fall back.

He kept flying mostly over me with full squads and he was an average CV player. He managed to chip away some 40-50k hp on the BB while nothing else happened and the enemy cruiser was still out of firing range. I did my best to keep within medium AA range using sector reinf and turning to keep the sector pointed at the planes for maximum amount of time.

 

The BB also "tried to dodge" as best he could. He died after probably 4-5 squads having passed over me. At which point I became the target...

 

and let me add a disclaimer - its a while ago and details may be wrong. I do not have the replay. However the situation left me really really negative towards the rework and it's a few minutes of gameplay I'll always remember from this game. Why can a average CV bascially ignore THE BEST aa ship in the game and just kill off a damaged BB during endgame? I'm a "slightly above average" Minotaur player and the BB did as best he could. Yet our efforts were completely irrellevant. In a situation that the CV should be 

But that wasn't a FDR? :P

 

4-5 squads for 40-50k dmg? A single squad will take 30 s, if the CV is very close. 60s if he is far away. So in best case scenario the CV did 4 strikes every 30s -> 2 Minutes. But it would also mean, every strike did ~12k dmg.
If there are fires and floods included, the BB can heal while that. So he get more Hp back. So in 2 Minutes, there should be one heal ready, which heals him back. If he survived than longer he can heal again.

That's why the current system is better, the BB can last longer, do more and last even longer. The CV can't finish him off quickly

Floods are heavily nerfed since RTS (Flood chance, Flood splitting, and Ithink also the torpedo belt reduction for floods)

 

Can tell you another story with RTS.

I think it was against a Lexington. I was in a Nagato, 3-4 km next to me a Tirpitz. ~5 km to the other side a Mogami.

Lexingtion approaches Tirpitz and one shots. Tirpitz was almost at full HP

After a few minutes second approach and Lexington one shots me.

 

Try to recreate this scenario nowadays. It's completly different and way better for BBs. You can even take AP bombs from Shokaku

 

 

52 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

We all know that good AA ships are "balanced" around actually having good AA back in the day. Fine, let Minotaur AA drop to average like all other ships and give me 15% faster reload and a bit more hitpoints...

Isn't the effective HP pool of a Mino not super high duo the heal? :D

I can understand, that Mino players don't like the change, because it was absurd brutal against RTS-CVs. Most people don't like such kind of change, and I have a similar complain. The battleship Kii had back then one of the best AA in game. The AA rating was 100, I think most ships were below 100? So it actually could compete with T10 AA ships.

But instead of translating the strength into the rework, they even reduced the AA strenth down to a T8 ships AA like the T8 US BB.

 

If I have a T8 BB with T10 AA level, then I would expect after the rework, that my BB still has the same level. but it got downgradead to T8 v_v

 

56 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

I agree, BBs came out best of the rework, but that's only because everyone else came out VASTLY worse.

No, BBs came out the best, because it's mostly better for them.

-Flood chance reduced

-Flood damage reduced (by splitting the spots)

-Torpedobelt reduces flood chance (I think that came with the rework?)

-> No perma death flood

-High alpha-damage - AP bombs changed

-Damge changed from High Alpha to Damage over time (multiple attacks over a time) -> More sustain for BBs

 

It's especially better for the weak AA BBs. Ships like Kii have now weaker AA of course, but the way how damage is applied is still better.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Wouldn't it increase immersion of BBs were the prime targets of carriers and GOOD (AA) cruiser play would also include supporting them with AA? If every strike always can come through you can never save a low hp friend.

I get striked in my BB. But it can be "dead damage". Damage that has no battle effect. I remember, were a good player ~60 WR strikes me the whole game in my Shiki, and I was the last survivor. So all his damage actually did nothing, I lived until the end anyways. I mean we lost, but still, it could be over way faster, his damage was "dead"

 

And also this is important to understand: You support them. If a single friend has no AA cover, he will die by one squad, even if he is not that low on hp. The first strike is not a matter of AA, it's a matter of the CVs player approach + how the friend is maneuvering + RNG.

 

Same like Shells that are flying towards the friend. You can't do anything about it. Same formular
How the surface ship player aimed + how the friend is maneuvering + RNG

 

 

 

 

[Nibenay78]

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, the AA alone reduces the damage of a CV heavily. Try in a test room how many damage you do in 10 minutes with all wings and with only one wing each attack. ^^

Then you additionally reduce the damage by maneuvering.

Same like surface ships, it's never a guarantee.

Of course it reduces damage but its still just that. My own skill to avoid damage is mostly irrelevant. If I meet El2 in a CV I'm at at a disadvantage in ANY OTHER CLASS. If I meet him in a surface ship, this may not be the case despite me being a worse player. In worst case I can even go for a ram, or blow his turrets off.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

1) And when a single BB sits stationary somewhere, a DD can one shot it. You can pick for any class favorable scenarios. And in worst case, you lose your DPM, this means, you did nothing. Do you want a BB in the back, that is not shooting?  :)

You completely didnt get the point. My example was just that. If a player farks up, plays badly or just sits completely static and sleeping... he should be able to be punished by any of the other classes. Your example is exactly as my example. except in my example the RTS-DM was massively dangerous to attack (CV being at a disadvantage) while in your case the DD is already the strong player against a single BB.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

2) Move into blop, I would just say, to play with your team together. I play recently DD and I just observe the CV, when he goes in my direciton, I move to a cruiser, if the area is clear, I can peek out, spot, torp etc.  I know many people prefer the John Rambo scenario, but I see no issue with having DD as a support ship. Tbh it's actually a better design, because the DD is a very ship irl, it would only make sense to translate that into a support class in a game. But people like big damage numbers and solo Rambo plays, so probably nobody would like a support role^^

DDs are pretty much the only class that can "solo rambo". For myself I enjoy sneaking around with them, making torpedo ambushes, trying to get caps from odd angles (or the regular ones) or just make massive area denial spreads with shimakaze (for example). All of these gameplays are mostly down the drain if the CV is vaguely aware.

 

Maybe it's more realistic, but then give all DDs good AA? for the record I used AA build on Gearing. With DefAA panic effect and 7.2 km range, it was an amazing support ships for battleships back in the day. How useful is the gearing and DefAA today? Probably better off fighting for the caps or gunning down other DDs. 

 

Also you're wrong, I enjoyed that support role, in fact I always played Minotaur with it's amazing 8.6 umbrella as just that. Sitting near caps for both AA and gun firepower for the DDs, or near a flank so that AA extended over/near the open water BBs.

This type of gameplay is mostly trash now. I still enjoy playing support in Mino, but now planes must generally come within 4km to be really effective. 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, they bothered, they changed it. But I don't think that the current AA system would work on RTS-CVs. It probably would need an additional "rework" (not talking about the flak clouds)

I also remembe,r how a CV unicum meant back then, that he easily baits out DefAA of a Desmoines and rekt them. ^^

And again, isn't that the purpose of being good? now there is NO skill interaction as the defender has no "skill" in pressing defAA or not. Call it a marginal thing, but at least it's an active choise the defender must make.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

I think that even cruisers have it better against CV, if you don't take No-Fly zones into account. It's easier to read a CVs attack pattern. Back then you just got bombed and in some cases you could dodge the Torp drop, if it was bad aimed. But cross drops and Divebomber were brutal, there was no "Oh I bow in and then the rockets will mostly miss". Having 5 squads at you makes it really hard to play against.

Especially when you are in ships like Nagato xD

Sure and was it amazing design? maybe not, yet at least there existed ships whose main purpose was support ships. See above.

Crossdrops wasn't good just because those who pulled it off (good players) force you into unavoidable damage. But thats still what good players do. No change there.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But that wasn't a FDR? :P

It was before FDR, I think it was either US or IJN

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

4-5 squads for 40-50k dmg? A single squad will take 30 s, if the CV is very close. 60s if he is far away. So in best case scenario the CV did 4 strikes every 30s -> 2 Minutes. But it would also mean, every strike did ~12k dmg.
If there are fires and floods included, the BB can heal while that. So he get more Hp back. So in 2 Minutes, there should be one heal ready, which heals him back. If he survived than longer he can heal again.

That's why the current system is better, the BB can last longer, do more and last even longer. The CV can't finish him off quickly

Floods are heavily nerfed since RTS (Flood chance, Flood splitting, and Ithink also the torpedo belt reduction for floods)

While flying directly over the best AA ship in the entire game in pure DPS - whose only goal at the moment was to defend said BB

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Can tell you another story with RTS.

I think it was against a Lexington. I was in a Nagato, 3-4 km next to me a Tirpitz. ~5 km to the other side a Mogami.

Lexingtion approaches Tirpitz and one shots. Tirpitz was almost at full HP

After a few minutes second approach and Lexington one shots me.

 

Try to recreate this scenario nowadays. It's completly different and way better for BBs. You can even take AP bombs from Shokaku

again in your scenario you're with low/poor AA ships. Try dropping a US AA cruiser into that? or even a DD with DefAA. 

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Isn't the effective HP pool of a Mino not super high duo the heal? :D

Sure if you are allowed to heal and dont take 30-40k in one blast. But I'm sure we both know how the situation is against heavy caliber AP shells with the amazing 16mm armor :D

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I can understand, that Mino players don't like the change, because it was absurd brutal against RTS-CVs. Most people don't like such kind of change, and I have a similar complain. The battleship Kii had back then one of the best AA in game. The AA rating was 100, I think most ships were below 100? So it actually could compete with T10 AA ships.

But instead of translating the strength into the rework, they even reduced the AA strenth down to a T8 ships AA like the T8 US BB.

So why even have an AA ship? its Minotar was spesifically supposed to be amazing against CVs. It got other drawbacks because of that. If Minotaur spot range from air was shorter than AA, I would probably chose to NOT use long range AA due to the minimal effect on most CVs towards the risk that you're spotted and everyone aims at you.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

No, BBs came out the best, because it's mostly better for them.

-Flood chance reduced

Because there will be more torpedoes strikes in succession, not all at once and then a break.

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

-Flood damage reduced (by splitting the spots)

But then again 2 floods deal about the same damage iirc someone from WG said.

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

-Torpedobelt reduces flood chance (I think that came with the rework?)

Which is a good thing if we account for hard to avoid ikea torps on top of fast recurring CV strikes. Although

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

-> No perma death flood

I kinda liked that danger with that. in my view flooding and fires should be more dangerous but less common. Just my view of things to make it feel more "realistic" and immersive. Right now if one plays BB, it's basically permaburning, which is kinda dull and reduces the feeling that fire (or flooding) is dangerous to a ship.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

-High alpha-damage - AP bombs changed

-Damge changed from High Alpha to Damage over time (multiple attacks over a time) -> More sustain for BBs

DoT is also boring and frustrating way to die. Given the excessive HE spam at times, it's just one more DoT.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

It's especially better for the weak AA BBs. Ships like Kii have now weaker AA of course, but the way how damage is applied is still better.

Of course AA is flattened. I disagree. I prefered the old style massive damage, but options to avoid it and a longe time between strikes. Even if that option was the push of a button at the right time. Were CVS overpowered in the right hands then? yes. Are they now? yes, but vastly more demoralizing to play against.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I get striked in my BB. But it can be "dead damage". Damage that has no battle effect. I remember, were a good player ~60 WR strikes me the whole game in my Shiki, and I was the last survivor. So all his damage actually did nothing, I lived until the end anyways. I mean we lost, but still, it could be over way faster, his damage was "dead"

 

And also this is important to understand: You support them. If a single friend has no AA cover, he will die by one squad, even if he is not that low on hp. The first strike is not a matter of AA, it's a matter of the CVs player approach + how the friend is maneuvering + RNG.

All ships can do useless damage that has no effect, probably we all do that every match. Besides his relentless attacks might push you out of the game and reduce your options vastly.

Again this forces you into blobs. If it was like before that some ships had massive contributions to AA, it'd be easier to split into fleets for flanking and crossfire. I suppose such attempts are frowned upon and should be discouraged.

 

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Same like Shells that are flying towards the friend. You can't do anything about it. Same formular
How the surface ship player aimed + how the friend is maneuvering + RNG

But then my friend CAN do something about it if he is near death with regular combat.

* if the range is long enough he can manouver to avoid shells. Note here: very often showing your a** to the ship shooting at you will often result in showing a** to the entire enemy team on your side and help all incoming fire. A CV will just flank you.

* if he is near land, he can hide. A CV can mostly ignore this and it even makes AA worthless for the approach

* If he is at some range, he can stop firing and go  dark or use his last time to hopefully get out of range. 

 

it's hardly the same. If you are very near death against a CV, it's a matter of time. Maybe he needs 10-20 secs more to re-spot you or make a flank attack, but as you yourself said the attack will and should go through assuming the CV player is not completely incompetent.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Of course it reduces damage but its still just that. My own skill to avoid damage is mostly irrelevant. If I meet El2 in a CV I'm at at a disadvantage in ANY OTHER CLASS. If I meet him in a surface ship, this may not be the case despite me being a worse player. In worst case I can even go for a ram, or blow his turrets off.

Guess here is the issue. You compare ship vs ship. It's a team game with different classes, and one class will be always the strongest.

Go, play League of legends as support and then play against a "super unicum" assassine. You are are also in a disadvantage there. Even when you play a different class, this unicum player might kill you. 

It's just, that you have different classes and some classes are weaker and some are stronger, but the potential lays in combining the power, same like in league of legends. The support is the weakest class, but it's still important for the team.

 

If you want fair conditions, you should play shooter like Counter Strike or Valorant

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

You completely didnt get the point. My example was just that. If a player farks up, plays badly or just sits completely static and sleeping... he should be able to be punished by any of the other classes. Your example is exactly as my example. except in my example the RTS-DM was massively dangerous to attack (CV being at a disadvantage) while in your case the DD is already the strong player against a single BB.

Funny enough, if the DM is sationary and afk, the AA still works, while the BB would do nothing to the DD :P

And as I said, the DM is for some super-unicums not dangerous to attack, at least that was told from RTS-unicums.  Some plane loses for an instant death on the DM ;)

 

If the CV player total farks up, he loses 100% of the squadron before strike, which means, that he lost 1 Minute of damage, while the other CV could have done more in that 1 Minute. I think the problem is, that people want compare a ship by ship duel. I think that is the wrong approach. Duels can happen, but they are never fair. Even if a DM duesl a DM it's probably not fair, because one has lower hp at the beginning or different skills etc.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

DDs are pretty much the only class that can "solo rambo". For myself I enjoy sneaking around with them, making torpedo ambushes, trying to get caps from odd angles (or the regular ones) or just make massive area denial spreads with shimakaze (for example). All of these gameplays are mostly down the drain if the CV is vaguely aware.

I'm not saying, that is a bad gameplay or unfun gameplay. But as soon you rdd or remove a ship type (BB, Cruiser, DD, CV, soon SS(?)), the strategy changes.

With CVs, it's better to combine AA and not move alone, because the CV is good against solo ships.

IF you have DDs, it's not good to push into the torpedos (as bb for example). When you remove DDs, BBs can go pretty aggressive. When the SS are added, I'm sure the meta changes again.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Maybe it's more realistic, but then give all DDs good AA? for the record I used AA build on Gearing. With DefAA panic effect and 7.2 km range, it was an amazing support ships for battleships back in the day. How useful is the gearing and DefAA today? Probably better off fighting for the caps or gunning down other DDs. 

That was actually weird, having this heavy DDs and it was very unfun to play as CV in RTS times. I remember a match, Iw as in Shokaku in a T10 match, and 80% of the enemies were heavy AA. I couldn't do anything the whole match, the enemy CV didn't strike and went only for counter play. Super unfun.
And DD shouldn't have strong AA actually, especially not that weird.

 

I had once a proposal, it was very detailed, so it's hard to sumarize. But it was:

• Strike planes lose spotting ability for team
• Strike plane deck number reduced by ~30%,
• Adding Recon planes for spotting only
  • They have also an attack run, but instead of attacking, they get an obersvation mode for marking a single target for the team, which increases accuracy (minus 10-20% dispersion)
  • This has also a special economy mechanic, damage done on the marked target get also adde for the CV
  • Recon planes are not a squadron, single planes, thus they get shot down very easily
  • Counter to recon planes are DDs and CLs, since they are stealthy and need only to do ~1k-1.5k damage

The gameplay would be, that a Carrier has to swap between Recon planes and strike planes, because the deck number of strike planes is lower and he won't be able to use strike planes only. Also other ships can way easier dodge CVs, because he won't spot for the team. DDs and CLs are counter to spotter planes of the CV, which could be a fun mechanic.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Also you're wrong, I enjoyed that support role,

Why I'm wrong? Never said, that you don't enjoy a support role :P

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

And again, isn't that the purpose of being good? now there is NO skill interaction as the defender has no "skill" in pressing defAA or not. Call it a marginal thing, but at least it's an active choise the defender must make. 

No, because the interaction between CV and surface ship was bad. I think if the DM sits behind an island, then maneuvering wouldn't work at all against bomb? So it's only left click for prior target and click for DefAA, that's it.

Currently, even angling and speeding up for a few meters can make a difference. So Currently it's Maneuvering + DefAA + Sector switching. And the sector switching is more "complex" than left clicking. (you need to know when clicking)

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sure and was it amazing design? maybe not, yet at least there existed ships whose main purpose was support ships. See above.

Crossdrops wasn't good just because those who pulled it off (good players) force you into unavoidable damage. But thats still what good players do. No change there.

And they have still that purpose, because you don't get striked 3 times in a row... you really don't want take 3 strikes of a carrier in a few seconds ^^

It's still a difference if you have 2 Shimas, or 2 Hallands.

Everyone can do an automated crossdrops, that works to, just does a bit fewer dmg. Bad CV players now do 0 dmg, they have no automated drop^^

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

While flying directly over the best AA ship in the entire game in pure DPS - whose only goal at the moment was to defend said BB

Yes. No ship counters another ship to 100% in a passive way, just by existance ^^

And that's mostly AA, AA is passive to most degrees.

It would be a bad design, if we go back to no-fly zones. Because we have now even more CLs, especially the Petros. And then DDs like Halland and ships like Kremlin and Shiki

There would be only no-fly zones. So yes, the best AA ship shouldn't make ships immune to CVs. I don't like that gameplay design.

 

Playing against CV is a mix of

1. Denying first strike by positioning / movement

2. Denying further strikes by AA

 

While 2 Shimas would give a bad protection for step 2, the Mino alone would be able to do this job. So the Mino is more worth than 2 other ships AA-wise.

(Before people say, I'm a CV fanboy, I have a lot points, that I disagree with the current version. But I prefer this over the RTS and see many issues less heavy than others.)

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

again in your scenario you're with low/poor AA ships. Try dropping a US AA cruiser into that? or even a DD with DefAA. 

Yes, that's the point to make clear, what changed. Three ships were useless against the CV, because 3 players can only play, when they have an AA ship around. But now it changed, that these 3 ships would still work fine. That's a huge improvement.

As you say "Try dropping a US AA cruiser into that" -> there was none, so the game is crap? :D

AA weak ships have now a chance. But I think here is the issue. You argue from the AA-heavy ships, who where quite strong. I argue from the view of AA weak ships, who are now better than back then.

Thats the difference, I can now survive a Carrier in my Nagato or my Asashio. It was terrible against RTS.

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sure if you are allowed to heal and dont take 30-40k in one blast. But I'm sure we both know how the situation is against heavy caliber AP shells with the amazing 16mm armor :D

Yes, but that is, when you get spotted and focused by a Team and the Mino is a candidate, that is often focused. A reason, why I don't like these russian meta with 50mm super tank-plating...

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

So why even have an AA ship? its Minotar was spesifically supposed to be amazing against CVs. It got other drawbacks because of that. If Minotaur spot range from air was shorter than AA, I would probably chose to NOT use long range AA due to the minimal effect on most CVs towards the risk that you're spotted and everyone aims at you. 

That's an issue with Mino maybe, and I

 

don't think, that this is reason, why Mino has some drawbracks. Mino is a CL, other CLs have also good AA, if not better with DefAA, but they don't have these drawbacks

I think the Mino has these drawbacks because of the torps and possibility of Smoke, not because of AA. All CLs have by default good AA.

They tested better concealment, but it looks like, they didn't like it, since we never heared anything about it again.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Because there will be more torpedoes strikes in succession, not all at once and then a break.

No, with RTS CV you always did 2 strikes to get the perma floods. If hte AA is weak, you could even try 3 strikes, but look at some RTS videos, you can see how an RTS CV can even kill almost 2 battleships in one go ^^ I think Elazer uploaded one

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

But then again 2 floods deal about the same damage iirc someone from WG said.

Um, yes. But what is harder to get, 1 flood or 2 floods?

What is harder to get, high flood chance, or less flood chance?
And now the super question, what is even harder: 1 flood with higher chance on floods or 2 floods with lower chance on floods

That cumulates extremly.

 

RTS times: You got a flood, you used DCP. Then next approach a flood again or not. Lets say, a flood takes 20k HP

Now: You get a flood or not, two floods are mostly unlikely. So you get 10k or you DCP it

Then another strike, you get a flood orn ot, if so, you take 10k dmg.

A second flood could happen sometimes, but is quite hard to get, and only then, only in this rare case, you take 20k dmg, what was almost normal in RTS times^^

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Which is a good thing if we account for hard to avoid ikea torps on top of fast recurring CV strikes. Although

 

Actually yesterday I dodged CV torpedos with my Shiki, which has no rudder shift module xD Though the CV was forced to drop, so I had time to turn a bit

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

I kinda liked that danger with that. in my view flooding and fires should be more dangerous but less common. Just my view of things to make it feel more "realistic" and immersive. Right now if one plays BB, it's basically permaburning, which is kinda dull and reduces the feeling that fire (or flooding) is dangerous to a ship.

I know what you mean, and I think it would be more realistic and immserive, but also more frustrating. It would be better, if it would be less RNG depending and more a mechanic like hitting 3 times the same spot (That's not my suggestion, just an example what I mean with "mechanic")

And back than, floods sucked hard, it was so furstrating by getting so much HP drained

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

DoT is also boring and frustrating way to die. Given the excessive HE spam at times, it's just one more DoT.

But you just said, that you like heavy Dots? :D

With DoT I mean the general design, that there is less damage, but more constant over time. That what ships like Harugumo do. They haven ot much dmg, but they do it over time by constantly firing shells, instead of one hitting.

And it's not frustrating, because you don't die by default, and it gives you even the chance to survive. What chance do you have, when you die by alpha damage? You are dead. But if you take a bit damage, you can heal, and then you take damage again, and you might move into a better spot, and then your heal is up again, and then you win, instead of dying.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

Of course AA is flattened. I disagree. I prefered the old style massive damage, but options to avoid it and a longe time between strikes. Even if that option was the push of a button at the right time. Were CVS overpowered in the right hands then? yes. Are they now? yes, but vastly more demoralizing to play against.

That's a personal preference. It was mostly always unfun. The only fun is, when I was in Kii, but even then, the AA system was actually boring. My personal opinion is, that we need more manual AA. My idea was, that the on-click burst damage changes from these 3-5% burst to a manual aimed flak barrage. So every ~15 seconds you could aim one barrage manually. And every ship would have different barrages, depending on the flak-cloud number and damage.

You say demoralizing to play against, I personally love to play against CV in any ship, here is a replay, the CV player isn't good, but that's how it is, most CV players are not good, not every game has a unicum ;)

 

20210405_182112_PJSD510-Hayate_52_Britain.wowsreplay

 

Watch it, but please don't come up with "This was badly done, and this could be better" As an observer, you will always know it better, in a match itself you have to make decisions quickly, So Afterwards comments doesn't do anything ^^

At the end for example, I let my AA on, which was not intentionally

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

All ships can do useless damage that has no effect, probably we all do that every match. Besides his relentless attacks might push you out of the game and reduce your options vastly.

Again this forces you into blobs. If it was like before that some ships had massive contributions to AA, it'd be easier to split into fleets for flanking and crossfire. I suppose such attempts are frowned upon and should be discouraged.

You call it blops like it's a bad thing. But in my opinion, in a naval game, there should be always groups. Especially DDs were mostly escorts. And a ship group of 2-3 ships are not blops imo.

And actually, when I play Shikishima, I often go solo, and hope that the CV goes for me, to waste his planes. The only issue is, when the Thunderer and the Stalingrad and Petro goes also for me. Idc of a CV, but the Thunderer HE is not good of a DD that goes for me :P

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibenay78 said:

But then my friend CAN do something about it if he is near death with regular combat.

* if the range is long enough he can manouver to avoid shells. Note here: very often showing your a** to the ship shooting at you will often result in showing a** to the entire enemy team on your side and help all incoming fire. A CV will just flank you.

* if he is near land, he can hide. A CV can mostly ignore this and it even makes AA worthless for the approach

* If he is at some range, he can stop firing and go  dark or use his last time to hopefully get out of range. 

 

it's hardly the same. If you are very near death against a CV, it's a matter of time. Maybe he needs 10-20 secs more to re-spot you or make a flank attack, but as you yourself said the attack will and should go through assuming the CV player is not completely incompetent. 

Yes, when he is below 5%, the CV might kill him, but if there is enough HP, a CV can still struggle in killing him, when he maneuvers etc.

And guess what, the advantage of a CV is speed and flexbility, so of course he can go for low hp targets?
It's like you would say "A battleship can overmatch my nose, other crusiers and DDs can't do that, unfair" ^^

 

What is your friend doing, when a stealthy DD is dropping the torps broadside? unlike a CV, you don't see that coming, until they are below 2km or even below 1km ^^

And then dead. And it wouldn't even matter, if he is 1% or 10%.

Every ship type has it's advantages... and we can pick a lot scenarios, were the CV is in favor and were other ships are in favor.

 

 

 

 

[Nov_A]

tl;dr

[Nibenay78]

37 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

tl;dr

summed up: CVs are simply better than all classes and doesn't need to be balanced.