General CV related discussions.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Your turn, tell me what fdr counterplay is

Just dodge... 

 

@arttuperkunas and everyone in that (of course locked) thread about FDR being kinda crap:

 

Seriously. Just dodge. You can see the planes coming 10km away. Then you see them dive. 

But the torps they throw are slowwwwwww... really many BBs (that aren't parked up) avoid most of them.

And if it is a Frenchie with speedboost he'll avoid ALL of them. Same with bombs, unless you are 100% straight they go all over the place.

Of course SOME will eat all 8 torps. Backpaddling Yamato/Curryworst, like those, yes they will. 

Same with those rockets, but then not the BBs but parked-up cruisers. 

 

And doing 3 attacks on a Halland... LOL... yeah sure. 

Also not getting planes shot down, well then it would be 8 attacks on a Halland, eh?

 

FYI here's how FDR works:

You take bombs/torps and you hunt fat BBs. Try to get past the front ships (DD, CA) without losing planes.

Now drop the lone parked-up (preferably backpaddling) BB. Hope you get a fire or a flood. If not, try again or try next BB (after loitering).

Then get to some spot where you can loiter outside of AA for the obligatory waiting-time, hope he DCP's the one fire/flood.

And then give him a perma one, or two, pray to RNGesus. Rinse and repeat. You might get 400K+ damage. 

 

But on your way to that happysnack you might meet a Halland. He will dakka some of your planes. 

If you are bad or the Halland is smart (puts on AA when it is too late to avoid) you will lose half the squad. 

A Mino, DM, Worcester, or any T9 like that will also take some planes.

Because with the slow planes and large squads, FLAK becomes a thing of matter. 

Instead of ~3 clouds of FLAK, you will have to avoid 5 or 6. And due to the size of the squad, you CANNOT avoid all.
After that, you will ALSO need to fly out to loiter. With other CVs you press F and "FF oFF". 

Hell it might even take less than 30 secs to get back and drop something. 

 

And the effect will be that you may not be able to stack that perma-fire/flood. 

Also, will it be YOU that stacks that perma on that BB? After all, you found the "smartest" one (eh).

Teammates will set three fires before you can. Unless you found one hiding at A1 or J10. 

Also, when you DO put that perma on a BB, he might get shot up pretty quickly. He was the smartest one, remember?

And you are spotting him all the time, whether you want it or not. So, guess what happens. 

 

FDR gives the Darwin Award, but I think those that get it... sort of deserve it... 

[arttuperkunas]

51 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Just dodge... 

 

@arttuperkunas and everyone in that (of course locked) thread about FDR being kinda crap:

 

Seriously. Just dodge.

 

"Just dodge"

 

How many times has that particular canard been rubbished in this thread by far better players and more eloquent writers than me?

 

Let's imagine a context, BLUB_BLUB, a not unlikely one: I am playing a Yamato at tier 10 (which is essentially the only T10 ship I play these days), and a FDR goes for me. I am exchanging fire with a thunderer and yamato at around 15 kilometres. A FDR sets up a broadside drop on me. Which do I choose - "just dodge" FDR torps, or turn broadside to a Yamato and Thunderer? Not to mention if I am next to an island, do I choose to beach myself or take the torps? 

 

Right. These are the kinds of fun and engaging counterplay options BB players have against the FDR.

 

Now even if I had dodged, the Yamato's manouevrability is so bad, that even if I had managed to dodge all the torps (hint: I wouldn't, not if the CV player is half competent), he can get his next drop on my broadside.

 

(also, just to forestall any lowbrow responses, I never bowtank in the Yamato; I am constantly moving, either going towards, or kiting away from the enemy at an angle)

 

(also also: I want to say that you don't know what you're talking about re: battleships, as you hardly play high tier BBs, and the only T10 BBs you do have are Thunderer and Conqueror, which both have decent to good AA and very good manouevrability and might from time to time be able to "just dodge"; that said, I realise I am open to the same criticism as I have almost zero CV experience, except for being at the tender mercies of the same)

[BLUB__BLUB]

45 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

 

"Just dodge"

 

How many times has that particular canard been rubbished in this thread by far better players and more eloquent writers than me?

It IS rubbish, because mostly you cannot avoid taking at least 80% of what the CV dropped. 

And if you do, you will be in the ideal position to receive 100% of the next drop. 

BUT with FDR it is feasible, and no way next drop is coming within 30 seconds. 

 

Quote

Let's imagine a context, BLUB_BLUB, a not unlikely one: I am playing a Yamato at tier 10 (which is essentially the only T10 ship I play these days), and a FDR goes for me. I am exchanging fire with a thunderer and yamato at around 15 kilometres. A FDR sets up a broadside drop on me. Which do I choose - "just dodge" FDR torps, or turn broadside to a Yamato and Thunderer? Not to mention if I am next to an island, do I choose to beach myself or take the torps? 

True. Could be worse, then you'd have a Musashi or a German T9/10. 

Around 15km is not "alone at the rear" though. I do not think you'll get the second drop. 

Also, some FWD speed is usually enough. He''l only hit you wen you are backpaddling in a straight line next to that island. 

NOTE: if you are next to an island... make sure you are close enough so he can't drop between you and the island. 

 

Quote

Right. These are the kinds of fun and engaging counterplay options BB players have against the FDR.

True, in that case you are FoOkEd. But it would be your  choice not to avoid the CV. Better to eat 20K from him than 100K from a BB.

Like ignoring the cruisers that will also be spamming you. I think they'll do more damage than the CV TBH. 

 

Quote

Now even if I had dodged, the Yamato's manouevrability is so bad, that even if I had managed to dodge all the torps (hint: I wouldn't, not if the CV player is half competent), he can get his next drop on my broadside.

Even so, that is what will NOT happen with FDR. His next drop will not happen, only after 30 secs or more.

Any other CV, yes. Also remember 8 FDR torps = 6 Midway torps, they do less damage. 

How often do you eat all 8? 

 

Quote

(also, just to forestall any lowbrow responses, I never bowtank in the Yamato; I am constantly moving, either going towards, or kiting away from the enemy at an angle)

In that case you will not be the favourite FDR snack. 

(I would go get that Thunderer at the rear...).

[arttuperkunas]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It IS rubbish, because mostly you cannot avoid taking at least 80% of what the CV dropped. 

And if you do, you will be in the ideal position to receive 100% of the next drop. 

BUT with FDR it is feasible, and no way next drop is coming within 30 seconds. 

 

True. Could be worse, then you'd have a Musashi or a German T9/10. 

Around 15km is not "alone at the rear" though. I do not think you'll get the second drop. 

Also, some FWD speed is usually enough. He''l only hit you wen you are backpaddling in a straight line next to that island. 

NOTE: if you are next to an island... make sure you are close enough so he can't drop between you and the island. 

 

True, in that case you are FoOkEd. 

 

Even so, that is what will NOT happen with FDR. His next drop will not happen, only after 30 secs or more.

Any other CV, yes. Also remember 8 FDR torps = 6 Midwau y torps, they do less damage. 

How often do you eat all 8? 

 

In that case you will not be the favourite FDR snack. 

(I would go get that Thunderer at the rear...).

Thanks for the reasoned response (I'm not being sarcastic! it's fun to have an actual discussion on this forum)

 

Whether I'm a priority target will depend on whether the CV is bad/damage farming, or good/trying to win the game. I can lock down an entire flank or central position in the Yamato, so long as I have spotting and DD cover. While I am not the most appealing target for a damage farmer as I am manouevring in open water, a good CV player will go after me because my ship needs to be gotten rid of - and he will get rid of me if he really wants, though it might take him a few minutes that he could be using elsewhere.

 

While nothing you said is wrong, it basically still boils down to your choices, not mine. I.e. whether I get dropped or not depends on how much you want to drop me, not my counterplay. Making myself a less appealing target, while effective against damage farmers, is really not what I would call counterplay.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Thanks for the reasoned response (I'm not being sarcastic! it's fun to have an actual discussion on this forum)

Yes, thank you too for at least not using "I hate CV" as reason. 

Also, CVs are broken AF - but nobody thinks about if that all is in their advantage. 

Some/most of it is a DISadvantage, really. 

 

2 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Whether I'm a priority target will depend on whether the CV is bad/damage farming, or good/trying to win the game.

True. I'm not yet sure how FDR is any good. For certain it is so slow it is no good at "strategic deleting of DDs and cruiser". 

Also, how hard do you need to farm to get the win. 

 

2 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

I can lock down an entire flank or central position in the Yamato, so long as I have spotting and DD cover. While I am not the most appealing target for a damage farmer as I am manouevring in open water, a good CV player will go after me because my ship needs to be gotten rid of - and he will get rid of me if he really wants, though it might take him a few minutes that he could be using elsewhere.

Yes, that would be a reason to go after you. The thing is, can he do it. 

I'm quite sure FDR will have a hard time especially if you are with friends. 

In other CVs the FLAK is avoidable. Not so much in FDR. And you need room to "loiter".

 

2 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

While nothing you said is wrong, it basically still boils down to your choices, not mine. I.e. whether I get dropped or not depends on how much you want to drop me, not my counterplay. Making myself a less appealing target, while effective against damage farmers, is really not what I would call counterplay.

Well, we can probably agree that there are WISE choices and dumb ones. 

Counterplay... yes CVs are broken. Maybe similar to a BB that overmatches all, but probably not.

The thing is though that by ACTIVELY playing you make yourself a less attractive target for FDR. 

And a much more difficult one. If you look at it that way, FDR might be the least evil of CVs?

 

[arttuperkunas]

I can kind of agree with that. It does seem that the average FDR is more likely to be a damage farmer than, say, the average Midway or Hak, so from that perspective they might be less of a threat :).

 

Furthermore, while I think it's a bad design choice from the POV of balancing to have so many 457 mm guns, BB overmatch is overrated. I mostly play T5-T6 these days, and pretty much all BBs there overmatch each other, and every single cruiser in their matchmaking range - a good cruiser is rarely going to get blabbed. In addition, my most played cruisers are RN light cruisers which get overmatched by absolutely everything, even supercruiser shells. That said, overmatching guns raise the skill floor for cruisers, which is already probably the highest in the game, class for class.

[SV_Kompresor]

1 minute ago, arttuperkunas said:

That said, overmatching guns raise the skill floor for cruisers, which is already probably the highest in the game, class for class.

No, that would be DDs by a considerable margin.

[arttuperkunas]

1 minute ago, SV_Kompresor said:

No, that would be DDs by a considerable margin.

That's possible. I've only played DDs at mid tiers, so I readily accept that they might be even harder than cruisers to play at high tiers with shitloads of radar and all that.

[Sunleader]

@leonport

 

Leaving aside that 53% Winrate is still extremely High.

And that the Reasons its below a Steel BB is mostly down to the Fact that there is a Metic Crabton of T10 BBs to Compete with but only a Tiny Number of T10 CVs. Thus making it much harder to Gain a large Outbreak for a Ship.

 

 

The more Relevant part to this. Is that FDR while its Influence is actually lower than Midway. Is just Absurdly Frustrating to Play against.

Other CVs are already Frustrating to Play against. And FDR is basicly 5 times worse.

Playing against an FDR is so incredible Frustrating to Play against that People often Throw just looking at her in the Enemy Team.

 

Because if you tought AA is useless against current CVs. You just havnt seen FDR yet.

Imagine People Complain about Kremlin. And WG adds a T10 Russian BB for Steel which is the same as Kremlin but gets 2 Seconds slower Reload and 480mm Railguns instead of the 457mm ones.

Thats basicly FdR

 

Now. Funny enough. A Good Midway will still have more Influence than FDR simply due to Speed.

But FdR is several Magnitudes more Frustrating because that thing circles above your head inside your AA showing you how little it cares while Bombing you again and again and again...

 

 

Leave it to WG to make a CV which causes even more Hate than the CVs we got before....

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

@leonport

 

Leaving aside that 53% Winrate is still extremely High.

And that the Reasons its below a Steel BB is mostly down to the Fact that there is a Metic Crabton of T10 BBs to Compete with but only a Tiny Number of T10 CVs. Thus making it much harder to Gain a large Outbreak for a Ship.

Agreed

 

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

The more Relevant part to this. Is that FDR while its Influence is actually lower than Midway. Is just Absurdly Frustrating to Play against.

Other CVs are already Frustrating to Play against. And FDR is basicly 5 times worse.

Playing against an FDR is so incredible Frustrating to Play against that People often Throw just looking at her in the Enemy Team.

Also agreed. 

 

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Because if you tought AA is useless against current CVs. You just havnt seen FDR yet.

Imagine People Complain about Kremlin. And WG adds a T10 Russian BB for Steel which is the same as Kremlin but gets 2 Seconds slower Reload and 480mm Railguns instead of the 457mm ones.

Thats basicly FdR

That's something I do not agree on. AA is effective against FDR, more so than against other CVs.

It is just that FDR has the largest damage sponge of all. 

 

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Now. Funny enough. A Good Midway will still have more Influence than FDR simply due to Speed.

I'd say almost any CV is. Perhaps Audacious is the exception. 

 

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But FdR is several Magnitudes more Frustrating because that thing circles above your head inside your AA showing you how little it cares while Bombing you again and again and again...

THIS however is not true. Depending on WHAT you circle above, the planes will diminish quite steadily. Or very quickly...

Sure, a Shima will take quite a while to dakka down some planes. Now try Halland. Or Mino. Or stuff like that. 

 

However, that is not the favourite snack for FDR. Best bites are (in this order) Musashi, Fat Freddy, Yamato and Currywurst. 

Due to circumstances (alone and at the rear), Thunderer... I'm sure nobody will object to dead-eyes getting more dead, eh. 

And if you can snack on them (due to fabulous DoT damage, burn babyyyy burn) a Conqkek. But you do not want to attack Montana, or the likes of that.

As you will need the FULL squad to make sure and get off a second attack. 

 

Frustrating? Yes. Because this one CAN bomb you, whatever you do and no matter what ship you picked. 

However: it will cost. And if the Lolibotes decide to go for your butt, they will have it. Unless your buddies save you... hahaha yeah right... 

 

50 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Leave it to WG to make a CV which causes even more Hate than the CVs we got before....

That, is a certainty. Do you also wonder what they'll "GIFT US" with the next one, Max Immelmann? 

https://thedailybounce.net/world-of-warships/supertest-german-tier-x-freemium-aircraft-carrier-max-immelmann/

 

FWIW I think the FDR is all show and no go. Maaann those mighty impressive EIGHT TORPEDOES (that do as much as 6 from Midway... if you hit ALL of them...)

Duuuhhhh and that 30 secs "surrounding show patrol"... (where you still receive dakka if you're not careful) hahahaha!

All it does is, the ship that just has used DCP, but you still spot him (^&##@#@#)

and yes then suddenly your buddies remembered how to shoot, oif course always HE, and he gets set on fire by your buddies...

So, yeah right, by the time the 30 secs pass, nothing is left to set (more) fires to anyway. 

[Lordcrafty]

I actually prefer the midway torps if you're talking about only 1 or 2 strikes since they cause more consistent floodings, FDR's one advantage in a random battle is striking a large amount of times with one squadron, that's how she plays differently from other CVs, it's all about just getting to a target and to keep attacking it again and again with the same squadron. Well there's of course the 180 degree drops but there's reasons FDR needs that and midway doesn't

[BLUB__BLUB]

33 minutes ago, Lordcrafty said:

I actually prefer the midway torps if you're talking about only 1 or 2 strikes since they cause more consistent floodings, FDR's one advantage in a random battle is striking a large amount of times with one squadron, that's how she plays differently from other CVs, it's all about just getting to a target and to keep attacking it again and again with the same squadron. Well there's of course the 180 degree drops but there's reasons FDR needs that and midway doesn't

Midway is much better. So is Manfred... If WeeGee lets CVs in next Clan Battle, I'll not be using FDR, that's for sure. 

Eh, well  "IF" is a bad word here. The reason I grinded CVs is WgeeGee, because I knew they'd do it.

 

FDR torps are kinda ROFL-meh. Sure you can hit them all. Usually though you don;t. 

Because "just dodge" is actually a thing with FDR. It is as slow as a glue-eating snail. 

I had T9 games in Ark Royal where I did more  damage than with FDR in some. 

 

FDR advantage = the amount of stoopid. The more stoopid you meet, the better it gets.

Also, you do not have to try that hard yourself. Because it won't help... and well... here's what I think:

as such, effort/skill will not compensate no-speed, and the amount of damage you get, is up to the reds, really.

[Lordcrafty]

5 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Midway is much better. So is Manfred... If WeeGee lets CVs in next Clan Battle, I'll not be using FDR, that's for sure. 

Eh, well  "IF" is a bad word here. The reason I grinded CVs is WgeeGee, because I knew they'd do it.

 

FDR torps are kinda ROFL-meh. Sure you can hit them all. Usually though you don;t. 

Because "just dodge" is actually a thing with FDR. It is as slow as a glue-eating snail. 

I had T9 games in Ark Royal where I did more  damage than with FDR in some. 

 

FDR advantage = the amount of stoopid. The more stoopid you meet, the better it gets.

Also, you do not have to try that hard yourself. Because it won't help... and well... here's what I think:

as such, effort/skill will not compensate no-speed, and the amount of damage you get, is up to the reds, really.

I'll be taking FDR, haku or Immelmann. I think right now FDR is still looking like the pick I'll use tbh. It's strong enough when the enemy is forced to have small groups of 1 or 2 ships, which should be the case in CBs

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

A Good Midway will still have more Influence than FDR simply due to Speed.

 

FDR is not only using bricks instead of planes, you can also only hope for good RNG when you try to bomb DDs, because your rockets are so useless against them.

 

It is broken AF that you can just crap on AA most of the time (which makes FDR hilarious to play), but the struggle against agile ships is real...

[geschlittert]

4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

The more Relevant part to this. Is that FDR while its Influence is actually lower than Midway. Is just Absurdly Frustrating to Play against.

Other CVs are already Frustrating to Play against. And FDR is basicly 5 times worse.

Playing against an FDR is so incredible Frustrating to Play against that People often Throw just looking at her in the Enemy Team.

i think an FDR is about the most frustrating thing you can encounter in a BB. I once had AA support from a desmo and a Montana and my GK got pretty much solo killed by that thing

[Aixin]

The most fun use of fdr is to kill dd's with a Dev strike due to torps. 

[El2aZeR]

It should also be noted that using global WR as a balancing metric is complete and utter nonsense to begin with.

[BLUB__BLUB]

12 minutes ago, Aixin said:

The most fun use of fdr is to kill dd's with a Dev strike due to torps. 

BLAPPP confirmed. 

 

2 hours ago, Lordcrafty said:

I'll be taking FDR, haku or Immelmann. I think right now FDR is still looking like the pick I'll use tbh. It's strong enough when the enemy is forced to have small groups of 1 or 2 ships, which should be the case in CBs

Yes but it is slow AF, and when they manage to surprise you one squad is gone. 

Haku is still good. I do not have Immelmann - so likely MvR. Fast and spanky. 

 

46 minutes ago, geschlittert said:

i think an FDR is about the most frustrating thing you can encounter in a BB. I once had AA support from a desmo and a Montana and my GK got pretty much solo killed by that thing

If you put out the first and only fire, well yeah. Then after that you get three perma.

But in between a DM and a Montana? Ehh... something is wrong there. 

That would make you an inedible, rotten tasting snack in my book. 

 

[geschlittert]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

If you put out the first and only fire, well yeah. Then after that you get three perma.

But in between a DM and a Montana? Ehh... something is wrong there. 

That would make you an inedible, rotten tasting snack in my book. 

Mate, i know how to play BB, i dont put out the first fire... There is a reason why i have 65% solo WR in the beauty that is the GK. And yes, i was... a bit raging

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, geschlittert said:

Mate, i know how to play BB, i dont put out the first fire... There is a reason why i have 65% solo WR in the beauty that is the GK. And yes, i was... a bit raging

If you did not, and you know how to play BB, then it must have taken him all game. 

Especially if you were between Montana and DM. You might have missed something while raging?

Like that DM buggering off (sinking) and the Montana being too far away. Can't imagine any other scenario. 

 

Even a lone Monty... nah I don't want him very much unless he is a threath. 

Wouldn't want that (your) Currywurst next to him either. Unless the rest of the team is 10 Hallands. 

Then again it might have been masterrrr @El2aZeR there and he'd sink your Curry even with Implacable. 

[JohnMac79]

9 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And doing 3 attacks on a Halland... LOL... yeah sure. 

Also not getting planes shot down, well then it would be 8 attacks on a Halland, eh?

 

 

It happened to me. You can say 'yeah sure' and 'lol' till the cows come home, but it doesnt change the fact that it happened. After flying around me with not a care in the world and attacking me 3 times i was dead from prolonged enemy fire due to being perma spotted. Sorry you dont like facts.

[SV_Kompresor]

2 hours ago, JohnMac79 said:

It happened to me. You can say 'yeah sure' and 'lol' till the cows come home, but it doesnt change the fact that it happened. After flying around me with not a care in the world and attacking me 3 times i was dead from prolonged enemy fire due to being perma spotted. Sorry you dont like facts.

Can confirm as something similar happened to me.

[Capra76]

On 3/7/2021 at 2:49 PM, MadGunna said:

IChase adding his 2 cents, basically expanding on what Flamu already said.

 

I think they're really talking about 2 different things, ICG is talking about why CV don't fit in the game, Flamu was talking about why WG aren't going to fix it.

[MadGunna]

40 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

I think they're really talking about 2 different things, ICG is talking about why CV don't fit in the game, Flamu was talking about why WG aren't going to fix it.

Yes? That's why I said 'expanding on'. They're both raising good points that IMHO reinforce each other.

[BLUB__BLUB]

14 hours ago, JohnMac79 said:

It happened to me. You can say 'yeah sure' and 'lol' till the cows come home, but it doesnt change the fact that it happened. After flying around me with not a care in the world and attacking me 3 times i was dead from prolonged enemy fire due to being perma spotted. Sorry you dont like facts.

Fact is that I tried and I can't do it. A Halland in the open, means I get the full dakka.

Sure you MIGHT get 3 drops off. If you can move behind a mountain after you dropped, so you can escape the AA while loitering.

As this loitering is not avoidable, and you claim he had you perma-spotted, that means he spent at least 1.5 minutes in Halland AA. 

 

Well, I am sure there are some here that can calculate if that is even possible.