General CV related discussions.

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

1 hour and 45 minutes into that video
Ahskance : A well played surface ship is like a very skilled technician, they can fix machines, the CV is just a superviser, is that a good analogy?
E2azer : No CV is a very skilled technician with a jet pack.

 

There is a lot of talking (not all of it really serves a purpose but what to expect from a 3h discussion) and also a lot of repetition. But they find back to reasonable discussion most of the times, eg. the DesMoines part which started out at “delete in 3min” and ended up at “wear down in about 8min”. 
 

The whole discussion is much better due to being a dialogue rather than one person simply airing an opinion 

[Camperdown]

43 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Video is not very interesting to anyone here, he's just saying what everyone already knows :

- It is possible to mitigate a large chunk of CV damage (Just Dodge™) by turning in such a way that you get deleted by surface ships instead. So what people do is let the CV violate them, as it is the lesser of two evils.

- The only way to not be in a position where you are offered the choice of "die by enemy ships or die by planes" - Is sit in the back of the map all clumped up to merge AA, this makes matches with CVs painfully boring for 22 people who aren't playing a CV.

We all know this, why do you think this topic is 298 pages long

It is 298 pages long because all arguments fit in less than 30 pages but are repeated every 3 to 6 months 

[COPlUM]

Question : Are CVs OP? The top winrate for CVs is far higher than any other ship, this suggests they are OP
Answer : No, that's just because the best DD/CA/BB players can only dominate one part of the map, the rest of their team can still get crushed on the other side. Meanwhile the best CV players can go wherever they are needed to win.
El2azer : Yes, that's why they're op
That video is 3 hours of someone knowing CVs are OP, knowing why they are OP and still saying they are ... not OP.

[CptBarney]

16 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

There is a lot of talking (not all of it really serves a purpose but what to expect from a 3h discussion) and also a lot of repetition. But they find back to reasonable discussion most of the times, eg. the DesMoines part which started out at “delete in 3min” and ended up at “wear down in about 8min”. 
 

The whole discussion is much better due to being a dialogue rather than one person simply airing an opinion 

The voice shocked me the most lol.

[1MajorKoenig]

50 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Question : Are CVs OP? The top winrate for CVs is far higher than any other ship, this suggests they are OP
Answer : No, that's just because the best DD/CA/BB players can only dominate one part of the map, the rest of their team can still get crushed on the other side. Meanwhile the best CV players can go wherever they are needed to win.
El2azer : Yes, that's why they're op
That video is 3 hours of someone knowing CVs are OP, knowing why they are OP and still saying they are ... not OP.

Not really. They discuss the different levels of influence. 

[OVanBruce]

El2a is the kind of person who will tell you a team with 12 CVs will always win against a team of any other 12 classes so his opinions on CVs are almost always extremely skewed toward the "CVs are OP" camp. Yes, CVs are very strong, in fact the strongest class in the game, but they need a team that can make use of its spotting + crossfires in order to be useful. The CV by itself most times just enables its team to make better plays, that is what makes an unicum CV.

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

El2a is the kind of person who will tell you a team with 12 CVs will always win against a team of any other 12 classes so his opinions on CVs are almost always extremely skewed toward the "CVs are OP" camp. Yes, CVs are very strong, in fact the strongest class in the game, but they need a team that can make use of its spotting + crossfires in order to be useful. The CV by itself most times just enables its team to make better plays, that is what makes an unicum CV.

 

Thing is.

Not being Invincible or not being Capable of just destroying the Entire Enemy Team alone. Doesnt Qualify as not being OP.

If you only consider a Class OP when it results in 1 Player effectively Fighting the entire enemy Team all alone and still Winning. Then your Bar is Set to High and you could never possibly have an Overpowered Ship.

 

Being Overpowered. Means you are Significantly more Powerful than others. Thus upsetting Balance.

CVs Fit that Bill. So they are Overpowered.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Sailing those ships, your only purpose is to "entertain" someone else playing CVs, you get to do 0 damage, shoot 0 shells and launch 0 torps, but you do get to entertain someone else.

Well... if he cannot kill you, then he'll also:  get to do 0 damage, but get to entertain someone else. 

 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Question : Are CVs OP? The top winrate for CVs is far higher than any other ship, this suggests they are OP
Answer : No, that's just because the best DD/CA/BB players can only dominate one part of the map, the rest of their team can still get crushed on the other side. Meanwhile the best CV players can go wherever they are needed to win.
El2azer : Yes, that's why they're op
That video is 3 hours of someone knowing CVs are OP, knowing why they are OP and still saying they are ... not OP.

 

 

By that logic, there certainly cant ever be anything OP, because if a ship is better than any other ship, apparently doesnt make it OP...

[edited]facepalm indeed

Why not add nukes? well the nuke can hit those ships which needs to die, doesnt mean its OP

[Capra76]

21 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

El2a is the kind of person who will tell you a team with 12 CVs will always win against a team of any other 12 classes ....................

 

How long do you think a surface ship will last whilst being focused by 3 - 4 CV?

 

After they're sunk and it's a 12 v 9 game how long do you think the next lot of surface ships are going to last against 4 - 5 CV?

 

And once they're gone and it's a 6 v 12 game, how long do you think the next lot are going to last while being focused by 6 - 8 CV?

 

And once they''re gone, how long do you think a surface ship is going to last whilst being focused by 12 CV simaltaneously?

 

 

[159Hunter]

33 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

El2a is the kind of person who will tell you a team with 12 CVs will always win against a team of any other 12 classes so his opinions on CVs are almost always extremely skewed toward the "CVs are OP" camp. Yes, CVs are very strong, in fact the strongest class in the game, but they need a team that can make use of its spotting + crossfires in order to be useful. The CV by itself most times just enables its team to make better plays, that is what makes an unicum CV.

So you doubt el2azer when he says this?

 

As for a CV being an enabler: CVs in current form are pure damage dealers. Given enough time (aka team not yoloing in) a CV will rack up massive damage and decides games like that. That's literally the only link between a good CV player and his team.

 

And yes, they are OP. They deal dmg on BB level without the drawbacks of BB gameplay. Most notably: positioning. Something perfectly explained by the video on pg 296. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

As for a CV being an enabler: CVs in current form are pure damage dealers

 

 Are you sure about that....

Spoiler

 

[COPlUM]

41 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

By that logic, there certainly cant ever be anything OP

The guy El2 is arguing with, his argument is pretty much CVs are not OP because bad players play them too, wargaming cannot balance CVs around unicums, because if they did, normal players would hate them. While the first half of that argument is silly, the second part is true, but you can interpret that as wargaming had to make CVs OP for regular people to enjoy them, doing so made them the most busted ship class for people like El2.

 

The argument seems to be, if carriers were not OP, the type of players who eat flak would not find them enjoyable, this is true, but it is also incredibly messed up. Thats like adding McLaren to a VW beetle race because stupid people want to win too, yes, but now what happens if an actual race-car driver gets into a McLaren and joins the race.

[OVanBruce]

53 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Being Overpowered. Means you are Significantly more Powerful than others. Thus upsetting Balance.

CVs Fit that Bill. So they are Overpowered.

The bar of each person's OPness is so subjectively silly that we'd be going in circles when  it is about what is OP and what isn't. Plenty of ships have been called OP and plenty more will be called in the future. Now, if you want to discuss balance and if CVs should be tweaked in order to make them less strong, sure. I've said plenty of times that CVs might be ok if you take away their shared spotting and in turn gave them more damage, as I mentioned, CVs are powerful through their influence in the battle, not the damage they deal themselves.

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

The guy El2 is arguing with, his argument is pretty much CVs are not OP because bad players play them too, wargaming cannot balance CVs around unicums, because if they did, normal players would hate them. While the first half of that argument is silly, the second part is true, but you can interpret that as wargaming had to make CVs OP for regular people to enjoy them, doing so made them the most busted ship class for people like El2. 

 

The argument seems to be, if carriers were not OP, the type of players who eat flak would not find them enjoyable, this is true, but it is also incredibly messed up. Thats like adding McLaren to a VW beetle race because stupid people want to win too, yes, but now what happens if an actual race-car driver gets into a McLaren and joins the race. 

 

What to expect from a class, which most of the playerbase actually has no or only very little interest in playing? (Even Subs will probably attract more players). So in order to get atleast a certain amount of players, that class needs to be easy to play/retardproof/OP (pick whatever). If CVs would be balanced, only CV fans would play them, which ofc is worth nothing to WG.

CVs should reflect the game influence based on their playstyle, which means basicly nothing. If you want ships, which are much safer than any other class, because they never risk their ship itself, they should have close to 0 influence on the outcome of the battle. That way, all the potatoes can enjoy their retard class, and surface ship players can still enjoy the game. Sucks for Unicum CV players, but they are a minority anyway, and WG doesnt rely on them in the first place, so no big loss

[OVanBruce]

49 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

How long do you think a surface ship will last whilst being focused by 3 - 4 CV?

 

After they're sunk and it's a 12 v 9 game how long do you think the next lot of surface ships are going to last against 4 - 5 CV?

 

And once they're gone and it's a 6 v 12 game, how long do you think the next lot are going to last while being focused by 6 - 8 CV?

 

And once they''re gone, how long do you think a surface ship is going to last whilst being focused by 12 CV simaltaneously?

12 AA specced Neptune would probably win every single time against 12 CVs, even FDRs: Their combined continous AA damage alone would destroy pretty much anything. Even 12 AA specced BBs with good AA would win too: 2-3 straglers would be sunk but once all have convened and can push the CVs would lose because they won't be able to stop them, in this case not sure about FDR but FDR is a dumb ship that should have never been added to the game.

[OVanBruce]

45 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

So you doubt el2azer when he says this?

I don't doubt, I've discussed this with him and I don't agree with his way of evaluating CVs.

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

I've said plenty of times that CVs might be ok if you take away their shared spotting and in turn gave them more damage, as I mentioned, CVs are powerful through their influence in the battle, not the damage they deal themselves.

 

Thats only because the average CV player is incable of dealing proper damage. But they will harass one ship over and over, regardless of what skill level the opponent has and ruin his game by permaspotting him. However, this changes once a CV has the skill to basicly delete any target from the map. At that point you dont need to spot ships for your team, you can just kill them yourself. Having your team deal damage on your spotting is neglectable.

A change to spotting would atleast mean, surface ships can still enjoy their game even if being harassed for 20 minutes by one CV player, because the enemies cant attack him on the CV spotting. Wouldnt fix people like @El2aZeR killing entire teams, but for the individual players, getting demolished by a SU CV player basicly never happens anyway, so that would be "fine"

[OVanBruce]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

Wouldnt fix people like @El2aZeR killing entire teams, but for the individual players, getting demolished by a SU CV player basicly never happens anyway, so that would be "fine" 

You can't fix the playerbase tho, or at least, not until WG makes an skill based MM.

[1MajorKoenig]

52 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Thats only because the average CV player is incable of dealing proper damage.

That is about as smart as saying: “that is only because the average DD player doesn’t play perfect.” Well of course - that is why it is called “average”. This discussion will never cease to amaze.

 

Basically this thread deserves to be the Trashbin of the forum due to its shallowness. 
 

The video was quite ok for a CV discussion in that sense that the two agreed on that the main strength of the CV is to be able to influence the match with the flexibility the class has. Which obviously favours player who are interested in reading the minimap and reading the tactical situation. 
 

This is already much more than what’s discussed here in the thread over and over again.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

main strength of the CV is to be able to influence the match with the flexibility the class has.

That's the point. Though many translate the most influence class with "broken op". But there will be always a most infuencial class.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

That is about as smart as saying: “that is only because the average DD player doesn’t play perfect.” Well of course - that is why it is called “average”. This discussion will never cease to amaze.

 

The difference is, the average player in any other class gets not hold back by an AI controlled mechanic - flak. And even if they pass that check (which they might not), they still have to execute a proper drop - which is also something that those people fail quite often. I mean, ive been in a BB and CV players missed me with rockets Not to mention something like torps, which seem to quite hard to handle for the average CV player.

Compared to shooting guns, which means: take lead, press left mouse-button or even torps. In those classes, people fail because they die early, cant aim, dont understand overmatch (more like autobounce) or getting outplayed. But atleast in some of those scenarios, its a human player which prevents them from dealing damage. With CVs, they trip over their own incompetence.

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

The guy El2 is arguing with, his argument is pretty much CVs are not OP because bad players play them too, wargaming cannot balance CVs around unicums, because if they did, normal players would hate them. While the first half of that argument is silly, the second part is true, but you can interpret that as wargaming had to make CVs OP for regular people to enjoy them, doing so made them the most busted ship class for people like El2.

 

The argument seems to be, if carriers were not OP, the type of players who eat flak would not find them enjoyable, this is true, but it is also incredibly messed up. Thats like adding McLaren to a VW beetle race because stupid people want to win too, yes, but now what happens if an actual race-car driver gets into a McLaren and joins the race.

 

This is a Screwed Argument anyways. Because Proper Balancing is never Done by just looking at one Skillevel of Players.

As otherwise you end up with an Impossible Balance which just cannot work. Because you get Units which are either so Strong in their Basic Abilities that despite massive Mistakes will Perform well but still not have any impact as they have no Special abilities. Or end up with Units that will end up Dying on the Smallest Mistake but have Abilities completely Gamebreaking when Played right.

 

Thats why Proper Balancing takes into Account that a Class is Balanced not just Around one Skillevel of Player. And Instead makes sure to Monitor how Players with Different Skillevels Perform and take Action to reduce Overperforming Skillevel Players while increasing Underperforming Skillevel Players with that Ship.

 

Meaning if Unicums are Overperforming compared to what they do in other Classes. You will Nerf the Special and Game Influencing Abilities that are Powerful but Hard to use Correctly. Thus reducing the Unicums Performance but not really bothering the Players that cant use them anyways.

If Average/Bad Players Underperform compared to other Classes. You Buff Simple to use Abilities and Protection against Mistakes. Thus not giving Unicums any real Advantage but making it harder for Bad Players to mess up.

 

A Good example is the German Turtleback. For Unicums this is Completely meaningless. Because they wont be Caught Flat Broadside anyways. But for a Newbe this kind of thing is really Improving their Game because they wont get Deleted for a Single Mistake.

 

Thats why I keep Suggesting to not have Squadrons be Capable of Spotting. Thus being more like Artillery in WoT and Requiring Allied Ships to Spot.

Which will Vastly Handicap Unicums because they are no longer Capable of Hunting down DDs and wont be able to just Strike Enemies on the Opposite Flank.

Meanwhile for less Skilled Players this makes next to no Difference. Because mostly they just go for easy Targets they already see anyways. Like BBs.

 

 

You cannot Balance a Game by only Looking at one Target Group.

You always have to Find a Balance between the Groups and Adjust Balancing to Cover your entire Playerbase as far as Possible.

 

 

1 hour ago, OVanBruce said:

The bar of each person's OPness is so subjectively silly that we'd be going in circles when  it is about what is OP and what isn't. Plenty of ships have been called OP and plenty more will be called in the future. Now, if you want to discuss balance and if CVs should be tweaked in order to make them less strong, sure. I've said plenty of times that CVs might be ok if you take away their shared spotting and in turn gave them more damage, as I mentioned, CVs are powerful through their influence in the battle, not the damage they deal themselves.

 

Nothing Subjective about this.

 

2 Simple Questions.

 

1.

Does the Class have Significantly more Influence over the Result of a Battle than other Classes.

If the Answer is Yes. Then the Class might be Inbalanced.

If the Answer is No. Then the Class might be Fine.

 

2.

Is the Class roughly Equal to other Classes in Power.

If the Answer is Yes. Then the Class might be Fine.

If the Answer is No. Then the Class might be Inbalanced.

 

If both Questions end up telling you there is a Problem. Then you know the Class is absolutely and utterly Overpowered.

If both Questions come out with a Yes. Then the Class might be Unbalanced in one Area but might have enough Counterbalance to still be Fine.

If both Questions come out with a No. Then the Class again might not be Balanced Perfectly. But it might still be Fine given it also has Weaknesses.

If both Questions end up not giving you a Problem. Then the Class is Balanced.

 

 

 

What is Subjective however is your Idea that a CV needs additional Buffs to Compensate Nerfs.

Because thats not the Case.

CVs already do more than enough Damage.

Ther Damage is on Par with that of Battleships. Which is the Damage Dealer Class of the Game.

Yet CVs come with an Incredible Assortment of Tactical and Strategical Abilities from Area Control and Denial which should be Cruisers Job. And Spotting as well as Kill Securing by denying Enemies from Disengaging which should be DDs Job.

 

Honestly said. You would need to Remove Spotting from CVs entirely. Basicly make them Blind like BBs. If you wanted them to Deserve a Damage Buff.

Because they already do Damage like BBs. So if they get even more Damage. And on top can Spot for Themselves. They will end up basicly being massively Overpowered Battleships that can Spot their own Targets.

A CV that Focuses on Damage Dealing. Can already Vastly Outdamage most BBs anyways. The only Reason that CVs Average Damage Numbers end up on level with BBs instead of leaving them behind. Is because CVs can Chose more Influental Targets like DDs.

They really dont need a Buff to Damage.

 

I know you want CVs to Remain Strong because you Play CVs yourself and want to remain Capable of Carrying with them.

But thats not Balanced.

If your Idea of Balancing a Class requires that the Class remains Capable of Carrying Games better than other Classes. Than that is already a Fundamentally wrong Approach.

The Target is to make CVs Equal to the other Classes. Not just reduce how OP they are.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

What to expect from a class, which most of the playerbase actually has no or only very little interest in playing? (Even Subs will probably attract more players). So in order to get atleast a certain amount of players, that class needs to be easy to play/retardproof/OP (pick whatever). If CVs would be balanced, only CV fans would play them, which ofc is worth nothing to WG.

CVs should reflect the game influence based on their playstyle, which means basicly nothing. If you want ships, which are much safer than any other class, because they never risk their ship itself, they should have close to 0 influence on the outcome of the battle. That way, all the potatoes can enjoy their retard class, and surface ship players can still enjoy the game. Sucks for Unicum CV players, but they are a minority anyway, and WG doesnt rely on them in the first place, so no big loss

 

Which goes back to my Suggestion.

Just make CVs the same as WoT Artillery.

Simply having Squadrons Incapable of Spotting any Targets.

Thus CVs being Reliant on DDs for Spotting and only Capable of Attacking already Spotted Targets.

 

Then CVs cant Hunt DDs. And cant prevent Enemies from Disengaging anymore than other Classes.

They can instead go Deal Damage to BBs for most Part and take Opportunistic Shots at Cruisers and DDs when they get Spotted while a Squadron is Close enough.

Basicly being the same as BBs.

Just with a little less Risk as the CV isnt Spotted by Attacking, more Range and Accuracy on Range as the Squadrons can Fly over the whole Map. But in exchange a Lower Alpha Damage and Damage Ratio. As your Attacks need longer than a BBs.

 

 

 

And Yes. Subs are likely going to be more Played. There is alot of Submarine Fans in the Game.

 

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's the point. Though many translate the most influence class with "broken op". But there will be always a most infuencial class.

 

No, its not "the most influencial class is automatically OP" its "if the influence exceeds certain limits, especially when there is very little or no counterplay available, THEN its OP"

Quote

Question : Are CVs OP? The top winrate for CVs is far higher than any other ship, this suggests they are OP
Answer : No, that's just because the best DD/CA/BB players can only dominate one part of the map, the rest of their team can still get crushed on the other side. Meanwhile the best CV players can go wherever they are needed to win.
El2azer : Yes, that's why they're op

 

This is exactly the point:

All other classes are held back by limitations, f.e. not being able to influence the match on the other side of the map, within a reasonable timeframe. Sure you can try to do that in a DD, but you might lose 3 minutes of time getting over there. Something, which CVs dont have to do. First, they can strike wherever they want. So they can strike on flank A, but 30 secs later, they see enemies are advancing on flank B. Just fly over there within 30-40 secs and do whatever is necessary.

that is PRECISELY the point, why CVs are OP and have too much game influence.

That the average player is, once again, incapable of excercising this doesnt really matter, because it is possible, as Unicum CV players can show every day.

[ForlornSailor]

Oh 300 pages. I think the last time I posted was on page 250. And before that on page 200.

The good thing: you dont need to read any of that and you will still be right on topic. Since its basically only one point and people either are pro or conta. And the world keeps spinning.

Have we reached an agreement yet, if CVs OP or not? ^^

 

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And Yes. Subs are likely going to be more Played. There is alot of Submarine Fans in the Game.

 

I love Submarines (well the german ones) but I wouldnt play them in randoms, ranked or clan battle. And I dont want to see them there either. In a series of well made scenarios? perfect, im all in for that. Thats where CVs belong aswell btw.

See ya all on page 350!